Bad 1" Copper tee.

[NorthernIllinoisPlumber]

I got a call from my wifes friend explaining their new neighbor closed on his house today, and a fitting sprung a leak in the basement.

It turns out it was a 1x3/4x1 tee, some water softener person installed. Some of the fittings they used were the ones with the flux and solder built in. Anyway, I drained the system thru the water softener (which was installed poorly) and I had to sweat that fitting 4x before it would not leak! The last try, I brushed it with a fitting brush, and it did the trick. I am going back tomorrow to cut it out and give him a warranty. His realtor is picking up the tab, so I am going to ask to redo the softener issues as well. But I have to call her first.

I wish I could have rebuilt the whole thing tonight...as of now, I dont carry a huge assortment of 1" fittings, and the work kept growing, and I did not want to get in the middle of "who approved this bill" kind of thing.
Oh well...just want to make the customer happy.

[Devine Plumbing]

Not quite getting what you're saying about the T. Is it the type of T with the flux/solder already built in? If not and you finally got it to take solder and it is not leaking, how is it bad? Do you believe it to be out of specifications? Softener guys suck with their Qest fittings. Seems like they would at least give them a pair of pex crimpers. Nothing like four or more Qest fittings in a nice copper/pex water system. Definitely the weakest link.

[rick1643]

Not quite getting what you're saying about the T. Is it the type of T with the flux/solder already built in? If not and you finally got it to take solder and it is not leaking, how is it bad? Do you believe it to be out of specifications? Softener guys suck with their Qest fittings. Seems like they would at least give them a pair of pex crimpers. Nothing like four or more Qest fittings in a nice copper/pex water system. Definitely the weakest link.


Well, thats the difference between you and NIP. Your the guy that takes shortcuts (no license, no insurance, no bond), that will put a bandaid on a job, collect your money, and hit the road. NIP has gone to the trouble of working for his license, paying for insurance and a bond. He didn't have the right materials to do the job right, so he did a temporary fix to make the plumbing functional and returned to the job with the right material and did the job right. If he doesn't feel good about the job he did, how is the homeowner going to feel about it. Its called having pride in what you do, having integrity, and doing the right thing.

Hack, Hack, Hackkity, Hack

[Devine Plumbing]

Well, thats the difference between you and NIP. Your the guy that takes shortcuts (no license, no insurance, no bond), that will put a bandaid on a job, collect your money, and hit the road. NIP has gone to the trouble of working for his license, paying for insurance and a bond. He didn't have the right materials to do the job right, so he did a temporary fix to make the plumbing functional and returned to the job with the right material and did the job right. If he doesn't feel good about the job he did, how is the homeowner going to feel about it. Its called having pride in what you do, having integrity, and doing the right thing.

Hack, Hack, Hackkity, Hack

That is a load of crap. I just have never seen a bad fitting. Is it not made out of Cu, the same copper that is found on the periodic table. I have seen fittings bent, cracked, or just in general bad shape where I would not use them. But a fitting that is made out of copper that will not solder properly? Sounds like operator error to me. I am amazed that he did not just completely remove the T and use a fitting brush the first time, being the professional that he is. I would never put a temporary fix on anything. If I did not feel safe about a fitting, I would tell them to deal with no water and that I would be back in the morning. What if that "temporary" fitting floods the house overnight, while his customers are sound asleep, feeling confident in the fact that they have hired a professional. It is either done right or not done at all, no room for temporary in this business. Leaving your customers without water overnight, maybe a slight inconvenience, but that is called pride, integrity, and doing the right thing. The customer knows that you care enough about them and their home to not slap something together and hope it will hold until the morning. If I am turning the water back on to a customers home, they can be assured that there will be zero problems with everything I've touched, for a lot longer than overnight.

[NorthernIllinoisPlumber]

A bad original sweat job on the fitting. I had problems getting solder in it to seal. The softener supply lines were to long going into the bypass valve. In order to hook it up, you had to push down on the softener ports, then push it in. This will put stress on the computer board and the rest of the parts.
My only solution is to cut the fitting out, and replace with new. Then shorten the lines to the softener, so they go together correctly and do not put stress on the plastic components.

I just spoke with the realtor, she was going to call the seller and find out if there is a warranty regarding the install.

[NorthernIllinoisPlumber]

That is a load of crap. I just have never seen a bad fitting. Is it not made out of Cu, the same copper that is found on the periodic table. I have seen fittings bent, cracked, or just in general bad shape where I would not use them. But a fitting that is made out of copper that will not solder properly? Sounds like operator error to me. I am amazed that he did not just completely remove the T and use a fitting brush the first time, being the professional that he is. I would never put a temporary fix on anything. If I did not feel safe about a fitting, I would tell them to deal with no water and that I would be back in the morning. What if that "temporary" fitting floods the house overnight, while his customers are sound asleep, feeling confident in the fact that they have hired a professional. It is either done right or not done at all, no room for temporary in this business. Leaving your customers without water overnight, maybe a slight inconvenience, but that is called pride, integrity, and doing the right thing. The customer knows that you care enough about them and their home to not slap something together and hope it will hold until the morning. If I am turning the water back on to a customers home, they can be assured that there will be zero problems with everything I've touched, for a lot longer than overnight.

It is operator error, whoever installed it. I never removed any fittings...I used the brush to rub around the outside cup of the fitting. Sometimes this helps to push flux in. It held, but because of the trouble, I decided it should come out.
The homeowner has not moved in...he was not sleeping there...so he was instructed to turn the water off when he left last night. I thought about the flooding issue as well. That was also why it was decided to come back today.

[gear junkie]

I'll try to remove a leaking fitting and clean and resolder rather than run a cap. I've pulled some fittings appart that were soldered very poorly but had a thin rim of solder on the top of the fitting.

[Devine Plumbing]

As most of them are simply o-ring seals good idea to make sure everything is lined up properly with no extra pressure being placed on plastic parts. I went to do a couple of small things on a new house yesterday. I need to bring my camera with me. Junk Lochinvar water heater was shoved in the back of a utility room, then the furnace installed. Only way to get it out would be to remove the furnace or cut your own door through the drywall and studs. 1/8" copper icemaker line was there, but the end was terminated somewhere up in the wall, maybe behind the refridgerator, maybe not. I ended up running a new 1/4" PEX line as opposed to cutting drywall trying to find the copper line. Frostless faucet was backpitched into the house. Gotta love some of new construction plumbers.

[Devine Plumbing]

It is operator error, whoever installed it. I never removed any fittings...I used the brush to rub around the outside cup of the fitting. Sometimes this helps to push flux in. It held, but because of the trouble, I decided it should come out.
The homeowner has not moved in...he was not sleeping there...so he was instructed to turn the water off when he left last night. I thought about the flooding issue as well. That was also why it was decided to come back today.

Yea, sometimes I have luck resoldering, but usually the fitting must be just removed. At that point, I guess you're right, easier to just replace the fitting if you have one. It makes for an interesting dilemma if the authorization to repair is not in order yet. Went on a house that a realtor was trying to sell earlier this spring. The copper had split because of not being winterized properly. I was already there and they were having trouble getting the authorization to fix. I just said, screw your authorization, I am going to fix it as it was under $100, and we can figure out the rest later, as the new homeowner was willing to pay if the real estate company did not.

[Service Guy]

http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/profile.php?do=ignorelist

This is really helpful feature, in case anyone might need it.;)

[Devine Plumbing]

http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/profile.php?do=ignorelist

This is really helpful feature, in case anyone might need it.;)

Thanks, I'm sure that will come in handy.

[HVAC HAWK]

http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/profile.php?do=ignorelist

This is really helpful feature, in case anyone might need it.;)

i like it and just did it to the person below you :D

now i dont have to read his BS

[NorthernIllinoisPlumber]

Here is the pipe taken out of the fitting, no wonder it leaked!

[NHMaster3015]

Flux is cheap, leaks are expensive.

[gear junkie]

Holy $hit!! Did you apply heat to the fitting befor you tried to take it apart?

[DuckButter]

Holy $hit!! Did you apply heat to the fitting befor you tried to take it apart?
LOL...thought the same thing as soon as I saw how mangled it is.

Point is you can see a strip of solder that runs around a small strip at the center of the hub where the pre-soldered ring was in that crappy fitting...the bone head that did the soldering in the first place never added solder...probably skipped the flux too.
Watts is disappointing me of late...they make these fittings for HD, as well as those stupid flood safe feeds.

[Masterplumb]

I effin hate those flood safe hoses

[NorthernIllinoisPlumber]

LOL...thought the same thing as soon as I saw how mangled it is.

Point is you can see a strip of solder that runs around a small strip at the center of the hub where the pre-soldered ring was in that crappy fitting...the bone head that did the soldering in the first place never added solder...probably skipped the flux too.
Watts is disappointing me of late...they make these fittings for HD, as well as those stupid flood safe feeds.

I cut the sucker in half, then gave it the ridgid pipe vise crush. I can see exactly where the leak started. This was a job done by the previous owner, before they moved.

Kind of weird...I could almost picture it before I saw it.

I was at the call for two hours. Everything looked good when I finished. Get this...the guys realtor paid the bill, after the closing. I did a special price for her, with hopes for referrals in the future. I also picked up a battery backup appointment from a neighbor who was observing me last night on the initial call. The guy that bought the house plays for "Da Bears." So I got his autograph on the receipt...LOL

[drtyhands]

I effin hate those flood safe hoses

I love this forum...Right there with me step for step.
Just ripped them out of my organizations sanctuary today.

Boy handymen make me look good.For the record...
Thanks:wave3:

[HVAC HAWK]

i have had to destroy some fittings to get them off at times

if i cant get it off the first time i cut it out and use some couplings

[spodelee]

I got a call from my wifes friend explaining their new neighbor closed on his house today, and a fitting sprung a leak in the basement.

It turns out it was a 1x3/4x1 tee, some water softener person installed. Some of the fittings they used were the ones with the flux and solder built in. Anyway, I drained the system thru the water softener (which was installed poorly) and I had to sweat that fitting 4x before it would not leak! The last try, I brushed it with a fitting brush, and it did the trick. I am going back tomorrow to cut it out and give him a warranty. His realtor is picking up the tab, so I am going to ask to redo the softener issues as well. But I have to call her first.

I wish I could have rebuilt the whole thing tonight...as of now, I dont carry a huge assortment of 1" fittings, and the work kept growing, and I did not want to get in the middle of "who approved this bill" kind of thing.
Oh well...just want to make the customer happy.

Question - Would the propress system been a good fit for this application?

[JCsPlumbing]

I do not own one. Not legal currently in NC. However, I think the right answer is yes. You can crimp/connect the ProPress fittings with the water in the line. Possibly with the water moving through the line with some flow.

PlumberRick owns several.:rolleyes: He'll give you better answers.

P.S. Thanks for getting the forum moving back to Professional Plumbing.:)

J.C.

[Killertoiletspider]

I do not own one. Not legal currently in NC. However, I think the right answer is yes. You can crimp/connect the ProPress fittings with the water in the line. Possibly with the water moving through the line with some flow.



That is true, I still don't care for it though. We used Pro Press to hook up water lines to machinery, we have to go back every other month and re-press the joints because they work loose and leak. This winter when they shut the plant down for a few days we will be ripping all the Pro Press out and installing conventional copper water lines.

[boillerman]

It's harder to unsolder fittings with the newer solder than back when we used 50/50, but most of the time you can still do it. Just every now and then you get a fitting that somebody probably had to hammer it in or something, or cut w/a dull blade or saw, or who knows? Any solder joint but a brand new one that leaks probably is like that inside, not cleaned all the way or fluxed or something. Guys do hundreds a day, get sloppy. And then there's dyi's and wannabe's...

[gear junkie]

That is true, I still don't care for it though. We used Pro Press to hook up water lines to machinery, we have to go back every other month and re-press the joints because they work loose and leak. This winter when they shut the plant down for a few days we will be ripping all the Pro Press out and installing conventional copper water lines.
What kind of machinery is this? Repressing solves the leaking, at least temporarily?

[Killertoiletspider]

What kind of machinery is this? Repressing solves the leaking, at least temporarily?

Printing presses, monstrous printing presses, Yes the repress works for a short amount of time, but it is all we can do since the machines run 24-7.

[spodelee]

What kind of machinery is this? Repressing solves the leaking, at least temporarily?

Printing presses, monstrous printing presses, Yes the repress works for a short amount of time, but it is all we can do since the machines run 24-7.

Interesting - Is there a vibration in the pipe?

[gear junkie]

Printing presses, monstrous printing presses, Yes the repress works for a short amount of time, but it is all we can do since the machines run 24-7.
I found this interesting as well. I thought the crimping process kept the pipe together but the o ring provided the seal. These presses don't have vibration isolators?

[Killertoiletspider]

Interesting - Is there a vibration in the pipe?

These presses are twice as long as a football field, the entire building vibrates.

[NorthernIllinoisPlumber]

Question - Would the propress system been a good fit for this application?

Yes!

[spodelee]

These presses are twice as long as a football field, the entire building vibrates.

I imagine then that the only joint that would last would be a silphos sweat joint.

I wander if propress is succeptable to water hamer vibration over an extended period of time? Sounds like something that could come back to haunt the industry in a decade or so... kind of like the old poly tubing.

[gear junkie]

I agree with the brazing of copper lines. Suprised it wasn't done from the get go.

[Killertoiletspider]

I agree with the brazing of copper lines. Suprised it wasn't done from the get go.

The soldered joints in their other building hold up just fine on similar machinery.

[JCsPlumbing]

The soldered joints in their other building hold up just fine on similar machinery.

This is VERY good information. Better not use the ProPress when vibration can occur on the line. You can bet an exclusion on the warranty of the system is coming.

Imagine somewhere that only runs 12 hours a day, springs a leak over a $500,000 piece of equipment. Get the picture?

J.C.

[spodelee]

The soldered joints in their other building hold up just fine on similar machinery.

Assuming the vibration is about the same on both pieces of equipment, that doesn't give me a warm fuzzy about propress when vibration is present! Sometimes you just can't beat the old fashioned way!

[Watersurgeon]

That is a load of crap. I just have never seen a bad fitting.

Which explains your lack of experience in the industry.

Up until the mid 80's all copper pipe was manufactured in the United States. Your lucky today if you can find anything made here.

There is a boat load of copper made in Mexico and China that I swear is boot legged.

Case in point.

Four years ago, we called out to a military project a 1,000 miles from our office. No big deal we go over seas if were called for the military.

The call was to correct someone elses F'up on an installation of a high purity water treatment system. Normally I walk from these, especially since we were not involved from day one, however in this case I was asked to step in from some Higher Ups that knew we would solve the problem quickly.

First thing, we show up at the project and find that the entire system was installed wrong and frankly looked like my kids sweated the pipes. We told the GC in charge to bring to the Job sight all new piping, Nibco or equivelant, all new fittings, Nibco or equivelant, we would handle the rest.

The next day the GC shows up with pipe and fittings that are stamped Nibco. I ask the foreman were he got Nibco this far out in the middle of no-where. He says, OH, we have a supplier about 90 miles from here and he had it.

So we go through and demo out the old installatin and redo the entire piping system. In fact I personally am involved with sweating a majority of the pipe.

When we were done, at least 80% of the joints leaked. I have been sweating pipe for over 25 years, there is no way I had that big a Brain Fart.

So wee got out a Micrometer and measured the pipe and the fittings. Every one of them was off. The only thing I could figure was the local supply house got sold some boot leg crap from China, stamped Nibco.

$hit, it's bad enought those guys boot leg everything else, but copper pipe and fittings, give me a break.

[Watersurgeon]

I wander if propress is succeptable to water hamer vibration over an extended period of time? Sounds like something that could come back to haunt the industry in a decade or so... kind of like the old poly tubing.

Actually it is. If you have never used it find a local rep and get them to demo it for your then you will understand how it works. Once the pipe is crimped there is no way that vibration, or surges is going to effect the joint.

[Killertoiletspider]

Assuming the vibration is about the same on both pieces of equipment, that doesn't give me a warm fuzzy about propress when vibration is present! Sometimes you just can't beat the old fashioned way!

They are using Pro Press on risers for some high rises here in Chicago, I'm curious to see how they perform with the movement high rise buildings have, even if they use expansion loops every five floors will it be enough to keep the movement from making the fittings themselves leak?

[JCsPlumbing]

Actually it is. If you have never used it find a local rep and get them to demo it for your then you will understand how it works. Once the pipe is crimped there is no way that vibration, or surges is going to effect the joint.

Respect your opinion. But theoretical vs. real world don't always work out. This person says that they've seen leaks from vibration, I have to lean on the side of safety and believe them.

On your copper note, I could swear I sometimes get type L copper that's as thin as M.

Regardless of whatever the controls that are in place to guarantee thickness.

J.C.

[spodelee]

I do not own one. Not legal currently in NC. However, I think the right answer is yes. You can crimp/connect the ProPress fittings with the water in the line. Possibly with the water moving through the line with some flow.

PlumberRick owns several.:rolleyes: He'll give you better answers.

P.S. Thanks for getting the forum moving back to Professional Plumbing.:)

J.C.

Rick owns several of everything... he told me on the phone the other day that he owns something like 8 seesnakes! Works by himself - I'll bet he watched Tool Time every week without fail when it was on the air! :lol:

[gear junkie]

Is the recrimping of the pipe possibly softening it? When metal get pressed repeatedly it gets softer. Could this be a reason why the joints aren't holding? Still thinking vibration isolators might be neccassary.

[spodelee]

Respect your opinion. But theoretical vs. real world don't always work out. This person says that they've seen leaks from vibration, I have to lean on the side of safety and believe them.

On your copper note, I could swear I sometimes get type L copper that's as thin as M.

Regardless of whatever the controls that are in place to guarantee thickness.

J.C.

I think propress has its place in certain applications and not so much in others. Just like most things, there is no magic bullet.

An interesting note though, the other day at the PHCC show, the Ridgid rep. said the propress seal was in the crimp and not in the o-ring. The o-ring is for back-up only. I think this explains the vibration problem, since copper is so malleable and subject to expansion and contraction. I can see how the crimp would loosen over time (with vibration).

I also asked the rep. if propress was rated for refrigerant/hvac. he said no and when I asked him why he said, "vibration".

Now I am wandering if I can use it on HVAC condensate drains.

[JCsPlumbing]

Is the recrimping of the pipe possibly softening it? When metal get pressed repeatedly it gets softer. Could this be a reason why the joints aren't holding? Still thinking vibration isolators might be neccassary.

Could be. I haven't actually seen the system done or dismantled to verify what's happening to the pipe in the fitting.

But even if the metal is becoming more malleable, they had leaks after the first series of crimps.

Isolation, supports, end braces for hydraulic shock. Be better to use it all.

J.C.

[spodelee]

Could be. I haven't actually seen the system done or dismantled to verify what's happening to the pipe in the fitting.

But even if the metal is becoming more malleable, they had leaks after the first series of crimps.

Isolation, supports, end braces for hydraulic shock. Be better to use it all.

J.C.

Seems like the copper would harden after recrimping, not soften. Just like hand bending a piece of soft drawn 90 degrees a few times... have to heat and anneal it in order regain flexibility. Wouldn't recrimp do the same thing?? No???

[ramplum]

I would cut it all out and pro press in new fittings. Bada Boom !

[JCsPlumbing]

Good question. I've got to say that regardless of what's happening that ProPress, pressurized lines, and vibration don't mix based on what I've heard. That's the way I'm going to approach things.

I worry too much. :(

J.C.

[DuckButter]

I've made no secret of the fact that I'm not a big fan of Propress, I kinda chalk it up in the same category as Sharkbite...NO offense to those who likes it.

Someone mentioned that Propress's seal is made by the crimp and not the O-ring...I find that hard to believe, completely.
If that were the case, I could simply crimp standard copper fittings and expect to see no weeping.

As for vibration...time will tell, there are countless installations where vibration is par for the course with potential water hammer as well as solenoid valves along the water supply...again, time will tell.

[HVAC HAWK]

I've made no secret of the fact that I'm not a big fan of Propress, I kinda chalk it up in the same category as Sharkbite...NO offense to those who likes it.

Someone mentioned that Propress's seal is made by the crimp and not the O-ring...I find that hard to believe, completely.
If that were the case, I could simply crimp standard copper fittings and expect to see no weeping.

As for vibration...time will tell, there are countless installations where vibration is par for the course with potential water hammer as well as solenoid valves along the water supply...again, time will tell.

i dont use it so this is my 2 cents

dont you think they put the pipe through the toughest test before the went to market .
im not sure but the crimp holds the pipe from coming apart and the o ring makes the seal
if you have so much water hammer you better put vibration isolators on your pipe

now for my 5 cents wait until rick reads this he will clear it up :jumping:

[DuckButter]

i dont use it so this is my 2 cents

dont you think they put the pipe through the toughest test before the went to market .
im not sure but the crimp holds the pipe from coming apart and the o ring makes the seal
if you have so much water hammer you better put vibration isolators on your pipe

now for my 5 cents wait until rick reads this he will clear it up :jumping:
Someone had stated that the O-rings were only a back-up seal...the crimp makes the seal (?!?)
As for air chambers, yeah they work, but after awhile the get waterlogged, I'd certainly hope you wouldn't have to install air chambers for the sole purpose of accomodating the use of Propress.
As for Rick, well...I'm guessing the solution has a K-60 involved....:lol:

[MrsSeatDown]

Someone had stated that the O-rings were only a back-up seal...the crimp makes the seal (?!?)
As for air chambers, yeah they work, but after awhile the get waterlogged, I'd certainly hope you wouldn't have to install air chambers for the sole purpose of accomodating the use of Propress.
As for Rick, well...I'm guessing the solution has a K-60 involved....:lol:

He likes the propress next best:rolleyes: We first saw the proress being used in Europe on our honeymoon. It holds up tried and true. Wish you could have seen the production of it at the roundup and seen all the tests and engineering that go into making sure they seal and work properly. As hawk said, wait til Rick gets home and he will give you the mumbo jumbo specifics;)