Presidential Election 2008

[Service Guy]

Who are you planning on voting for so far, and why?

Obama? Mccain? Or maybe Bob Barr or someone else?

Lets try to be open-minded and not attack others opinions. Mainly state your own opinions on the matter, and I think this could be interesting without becoming hostile.:idea2:

I am going for a hike, but I'll post my opinion when I get back.

[ToUtahNow]

This is the first election where I have not really been excited about anyone. At this point I am leaning towards McCain but who knows what will happen between now and then. I think a lot will have to do with which running mates they choose.

My concerns regarding McCain are his age and health but my concerns about Obama is the fact that he has limited experience. Obama has been in the Senate for 3-years but has been running for President since his freshman year. McCain is old to begin with but you need to remember his body was tortured for years as well.

McCain admits his weakness is the economy but Obama is making promises none of us could afford to pay for. I'm afraid Obama will be worst than Carter and Carter was about as bad as they get.

McCain is strong on defense and Obama seems to not have a clue about what's going on. Although he has slightly changed his positions he came off as excessively naive during the primaries.

I am also a little concerned about what Wright said about Obama being a politician who says what is expedient instead of what was true. So I guess we will have to wait until the real campaigning starts. McCain has pretty much laid out his plan while Obama has been very vague. Perhaps one or the other candidate will come out during a debate with something new which will excite me.

Mark

[drtyhands]

Mccain

Obama's going to win.I would love nothing more than to be wrong.Though it is going to be entertaining to count how many white floozies come out from under the desk.

Have fun with your points of views.Debating religion politics too much energy for me.

God bless

[Josh]

Remember folks.. be careful in here. Politics is a topic to tread lightly through.

BTW.. I agree with Mark. disappointed in both candidates. There just happens to be one that I have to vote against.

Josh

[Service Guy]

Ok, hike is on hold, wife got a phone call...:rolling-eyes2:

Anyway, I have long been a swing-voter. 'On the fence' so to speak. The problem being I like some policies of the right and republicans, and yet I like some policies of the left and the democrats!:scratchhead: Well, this year I have done a bunch of reading about the different parties and I have decided to support Obama and the democrats.

Why? Well, after reading all that the republican party currently stands for, and all that democratic party stands for, I have realized that the majoirty of my political leanings lie with the democratic party.

The following policies from a wikipedia articele on the democratic party, I generally agree with.
Economic issues
Minimum wage
Democrats favor a higher minimum wage, and more regular increases, in order to assist the working poor.
Renewable energy and oil
Democrats have opposed tax cuts and incentives to oil companies, favoring a policy of developing domestic renewable energy, such as Montana's state-supported wind farm and "clean coal" programs as well as setting in place a cap and trade policy in hopes of reducing carbon emissions.
Fiscal policy
Democrats generally support a more progressive tax structure to provide more services and reduce injustice.[27] Currently they have proposed reversing those tax cuts the Bush administration gave to the wealthiest Americans while wishing to keep in place those given to the middle class.[28][29][30] Democrats generally support more government spending on social services while spending less on the military.[31][32]
Democrats call for "affordable and quality health care," and many advocate an expansion of government intervention in this area. Many Democrats favor national health insurance or universal health care in a variety of forms to address the rising costs of modern health insurance.
Environment
Democratic belief is that the health of families and the strength of the economy depend on stewardship of the environment. Democrats have promised to fight to strengthen the laws that ensure people have clean air to breathe and clean water to drink. They also promise to make sure these laws are enforced. They feel that a sensible energy policy is key to a strong economy, national security, and a clean environment.[36]
The Democratic Party rejects the idea that a healthy economy and a healthy environment is mutually exclusive, because they believe that a cleaner environment means a stronger economy. They protect hunting and fishing heritage by expanding conservation lands. They encourage open space and rail travel to relieve highway and airport congestion and improve air quality and economy, and "believe that communities, environmental interests, and government should work together to protect resources while ensuring the vitality of local economies. Once Americans were led to believe they had to make a choice between the economy and the environment. They now know this is a false choice."[37]

College education
Most Democrats have the long term aim of having low-cost, publicly-funded college education with low tuition fees (like in much of Europe) which should be available to every eligible American student, or alternatively, with increasing state funding for student financial aid such as the Pell Grant or college tuition tax deduction.[39][40]

Social issues
Discrimination
The Democratic Party supports equal opportunity for all Americans regardless of sex, age, race, sexual orientation, religion, creed, or national origin.
Democrats also strongly support the Americans with Disabilities Act to prohibit discrimination against people on the basis of physical or mental disability.


Also regarding foreign policy, I DO NOT support the war in Iraq and think we should pull our troops out of there as soon as is practical. Obama seems to share my veiwpoint there.

[Service Guy]

Debating religion politics too much energy for me.

God bless

This isn't supposed to be a debate. Simply a sharing of your voting opinion (for others to read) if you feel like it. I am not going to argue with anyone of opposing opinion, and I hope nobody else decides to do so.

I feel if we all listen to what the others have to say, WE WILL ALL BE MORE INFORMED for the better come election time.

[ToUtahNow]

Ok, hike is on hold, wife got a phone call...:rolling-eyes2:

Anyway, I have long been a swing-voter. 'On the fence' so to speak. The problem being I like some policies of the right and republicans, and yet I like some policies of the left and the democrats!:scratchhead: Well, this year I have done a bunch of reading about the different parties and I have decided to support Obama and the democrats.

Why? Well, after reading all that the republican party currently stands for, and all that democratic party stands for, I have realized that the majoirty of my political leanings lie with the democratic party.

The following policies from a wikipedia articele on the democratic party, I generally agree with.


Also regarding foreign policy, I DO NOT support the war in Iraq and think we should pull our troops out of there as soon as is practical. Obama seems to share my veiwpoint there.

You left this off of your cut-n-paste

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/99/Question_book-new.svg/50px-Question_book-new.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Question_book-new.svg)
This article needs additional citations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources) for verification (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability).
Please help improve this article (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Democratic_Party_%28United_States% 29&action=edit) by adding reliable references (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources). Unsourced material may be challenged (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Fact) and removed. (February 2008)


+

[ToUtahNow]

Too many times we get tied into the talking points of one party or the other and when nothing gets done they blame the opposing party. Health care has always been my favorite as one of my friends voted for Bill Clinton because he promised everyone would have health care within 90-days of him taking office. Now 16-years later Hillary promised the same thing. Pelosi promised a bunch was going to happen within so many days of when the Dems took control of Congress and none of it ever happened. We really need to pay more attention to results and less to talking points. All we ever hear are feel good promises and then they don't deliver. Why is it we can go after Major League Baseball but not the major issues we have to deal with.

Mark

[cpw]

I'm not enamored with either of the choices, but it is unlikely any Democrat would get my vote at a national level.

I'm for McCain, though I disagree with him on three things that matter to me (immigration, campaign finance reform, carbon credits). I doubt Obama would be better on either of these issues.

The things I like better about McCain than Obama:
- McCain does not want to increase our income taxes, Obama does. My wife and I work hard for our money, we want to keep it. We live in a high tax state, so between the feds, state, county, town, and school district we pay thousands of dollars in taxes a month.
- McCain is willing to drill for oil. I know it won't be an instant solution, but I think drilling for oil will eventually bring the price down or at least stabilize it. Taxing oil company profits will just increase prices.
- Iraq. I think we need to stay until we can assure some level of stability.

I do think that John McCain thinks government programs can solve our problems; which I disagree with. If Ron Paul ran as a third party candidate I would vote for him.

[Rafael]

Both parties suck.
The reps suck a little less.
The dem agenda, as previously posted, will do nothing but harm the economy.
If min wage is such a good thing and does not damage the economy then why not make it $1000 per hour? Then everybody will be rich. The recent rise in min wage in California put me in a position where I had to cut the hours of several employees or fire 1. So I cut the hours of some employees. Maybe 1 out 1000 politicians has actually run a business, they have no knowledge or understanding of what it takes to do it.
Taxes here keep going up.
Dems want to tax the oil companies more? Stupid. The taxes are passed on to the consumer. Many pensions and 401k's are invested in gas companies, you will be harming the incomes of retirees.
Taxes do not improve the economy, they do not promote investment, they do not create jobs. They help nobody but govt bureaucrats, who already have cushy overpaid jobs.

I have a business in the least business friendly place in the USA, Los Angeles. In L.A. you actually pay a business tax even if your business loses money.
I am not expanding in L.A., I am looking to expand in a more business friendly area, that is what taxes and min wage laws cause people to do. Raise the min wage enough and more jobs will go overseas.

[ToUtahNow]

Economic issues
Minimum wage

Democrats favor a higher minimum wage, and more regular increases, in order to assist the working poor.

Minimum wage is an entry level wage not a wage meant to sustain a family. I believe a more appropriate wage would be a schedule based on skills. A factory worker building widgets is likely worth more than a worker at a McDonalds flipping burgers. They should not be working at a wage based on the same minimum wage. The unintended consequence of raising the minimum wage is it proportionately raises the wages of the workers who are above the minimum wage. As has already been pointed out raising the minimum wage also cause employers to cut back on labor. A quick review of the minimum wage in the City of Santa Monica has proven that.


Renewable energy and oil

Democrats have opposed tax cuts and incentives to oil companies, favoring a policy of developing domestic renewable energy, such as Montana's state-supported wind farm and "clean coal" programs as well as setting in place a cap and trade policy in hopesof reducing carbon emissions.

This section is almost laughable. The Democrats have opposed the wind farms off of Ted Kennedy’s and John Kerry’s beach, prevented nuclear plants, prevented off shore drilling, prevented Alaskan drilling and impeded the construction of new refineries.


Fiscal policy

Democrats generally support a more progressive tax structure to provide more services and reduce injustice.[27] Currently they have proposed reversing those tax cuts the Bush administration gave to the wealthiest Americans while wishing to keep in place those given to the middle class.[28][29][30] Democrats generally support more government spending on social services while spending less on the military.[31][32]

This all sounds nice but is just another way to take money away from those who have worked hard.

Democrats call for "affordable and quality health care," and many advocate an expansion of government intervention in this area. Many Democrats favor national health insurance or universal health care in a variety of forms to address the rising costs of modern health insurance.

Again who do the Dems think the Government is? As the Government does not have any money they will take my money and your money to give us a Health care system which is blotted in waste.


Environment

Democratic belief is that the health of families and the strength of the economy depend on stewardship of the environment. Democrats have promised to fight to strengthen the laws that ensure people have clean air to breathe and clean water to drink. They also promise to make sure these laws are enforced. They feel that a sensible energy policy is key to a strong economy, national security, and a clean environment.[36]
The Democratic Party rejects the idea that a healthy economy and a healthy environment is mutually exclusive, because they believe that a cleaner environment means a stronger economy. They protect hunting and fishing heritage by expanding conservation lands. They encourage open space and rail travel to relieve highway and airport congestion and improve air quality and economy, and "believe that communities, environmental interests, and government should work together to protect resources while ensuring the vitality of local economies. Once Americans were led to believe they had to make a choice between the economy and the environment. They now know this is a false choice."[37]


Anyone in a business or industry understands the effect some of the requirements as suggested by environmental groups would have. I believe we all want a clean environment regardless of party affiliation but we have to have a reasonable balance.


College education

Most Democrats have the long term aim of having low-cost, publicly-funded college education with low tuition fees (like in much of Europe) which should be available to every eligible American student, or alternatively, with increasing state funding for student financial aid such as the Pell Grant or college tuition tax deduction.[39][40]

I don’t see a difference in the parties here. Where I do have an issue is the fact that illegal aliens in California pay in State tuition while US citizens from out of State pay a higher tuition.

Social issues
Discrimination

The Democratic Party supports equal opportunity for all Americans regardless of sex, age, race, sexual orientation, religion, creed, or national origin.

Democrats also strongly support the Americans with Disabilities Act to prohibit discrimination against people on the basis of physical or mental disability.

I don’t see a difference between the parties here other than the way they accuse the other side of discriminating.

[DuckButter]

On one hand we have a guy that refused to be released as a POW unless the other porisoners were releaesed, he almost lost his career standing up against the special interest payoffs of the tobacco industry (low and behold...smoking really IS unhealthy!)

On the other we have our handsome young promising guy who has made some very promising campaign promises, he stands for something...so he tells us.

I don't car what kinda health McCain is in...if he drops after 6 months the changes he'd affect would be more than worthwhile.
I don't agree with all of his policies, but dear god, he beats the alternative by a far stretch in terms of experience and proven track record.

This is a time when we aren't going to get better in terms of the economy or world affairs unless we eat some crow and make sacrifices we don't want to make...so far I see McCain has the integrity to stand by what is right for his country over what is lucrative for himself...he also has no fear of stating the unpopular truth.

I say we need him...desperately.
I've been saying this for years.

[Masterplumb]

I promised myself I would TRY to not talk politics here anymore. We'll see how long I can hold on to that........I guess that will change once Eli and Frankiarmz post;)

In the meantime :ignore::ignore::ignore:

[NHMaster3015]

If someone could tell me just one worthwhile thing Obama has done in his entire carreer then perhaps I could feel a bit better about him. As of now all I see is a carasmatic face telling us everything that is wrong with the country and offering no concrete solutions to any problems. The mantra of change is all well and good, but not everything needs changing and what does needs a plan.

[DUNBAR]

Columbo,


He solves all the problems in one hour. :lol:

[Rafael]

If someone could tell me just one worthwhile thing Obama has done in his entire carreer then perhaps I could feel a bit better about him. As of now all I see is a carasmatic face telling us everything that is wrong with the country and offering no concrete solutions to any problems. The mantra of change is all well and good, but not everything needs changing and what does needs a plan.

Hitler had charisma and talked about change too.
I'm not calling Obama Hitler, but I am saying that charisma and advocating change can be dangerous or worthless, take your pick.

[DuckButter]

If someone could tell me just one worthwhile thing Obama has done in his entire carreer then perhaps I could feel a bit better about him. As of now all I see is a carasmatic face telling us everything that is wrong with the country and offering no concrete solutions to any problems. The mantra of change is all well and good, but not everything needs changing and what does needs a plan.
When it comes to charismatic presence & campaign promises I have one thing to say: "Read my lips, NO new taxes".
I'm ALL for track records from here on in.

[HVAC HAWK]

i will vote for plumber rick

if we had some one like him in the big house we all would in a better frame of mined :dance:

[rick1643]

i will vote for plumber rick

if we had some one like him in the big house we all would in a better frame of mined :dance:

And at the very least, there wouldn't be any plumbing problems at the White House.

[ToUtahNow]

i will vote for plumber rick

if we had some one like him in the big house we all would in a better frame of mined :dance:

....and all school kids would be required to learn his penny trick.

Mark

[ToUtahNow]

Okay here is the unofficial count so far:

Obama - 1

McCain - 6

Plumber Rick - 1

I guess this is not too much of a surprise as I believe all of those who voted for either of the real candidates are business owners and it is the business owners who will suffer the most under Obama.

Mark

[HVAC HAWK]

....and all school kids would be required to learn his penny trick.

Mark

Amen there brother :bravo::thumbup2::dance:

[NHMaster3015]

And at the very least, there wouldn't be any plumbing problems at the White House.

I'm picturing a K60 sitting on the desk in the oval office ;)

[HVAC HAWK]

sorry about getting this thread of track but Politics bore me


ricks campaign slogan is if im your president there will be a k-60 in every house

[ToUtahNow]

I'm picturing a K60 sitting on the desk in the oval office ;)


Perhaps under the desk as we need to preserve some dignity.

Mark

[Killertoiletspider]

After studying all the candidates so far, I'll be voting for myself.

[Bogart]

McCain, while holding my nose. Obama is a product of the gov't redistributing wealth to favored classes, and wants more of the same. I can barely afford my taxes now, let alone after all of his great ideas get implemented.

[garager]

McCain for me. I'm not sure if I posted this before, its a little long, but well worth the watch. Enjoy !!!! :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPch2k63uj4

[Service Guy]

Here are the official websites of the two prospective candidates, in case anyone is interested.

http://www.johnmccain.com/

http://www.barackobama.com/index.php

[Service Guy]

Okay here is the unofficial count so far:

Obama - 1

McCain - 6

Plumber Rick - 1

I guess this is not too much of a surprise as I believe all of those who voted for either of the real candidates are business owners and it is the business owners who will suffer the most under Obama.

Mark

"business owners" is a broad term.

This quote is from Obama's website:

Barack Obama's Plan

Provide Middle Class Americans Tax Relief
Obama will cut income taxes by $1,000 for working families to offset the payroll tax they pay.
Provide a Tax Cut for Working Families: Obama will restore fairness to the tax code and provide 150 million workers the tax relief they need. Obama will create a new "Making Work Pay" tax credit of up to $500 per person, or $1,000 per working family. The "Making Work Pay" tax credit will completely eliminate income taxes for 10 million Americans.
Simplify Tax Filings for Middle Class Americans: Obama will dramatically simplify tax filings so that millions of Americans will be able to do their taxes in less than five minutes. Obama will ensure that the IRS uses the information it already gets from banks and employers to give taxpayers the option of pre-filled tax forms to verify, sign and return. Experts estimate that the Obama proposal will save Americans up to 200 million total hours of work and aggravation and up to $2 billion in tax preparer fees.


He's not all about raising taxes, at least not across the board.
Also, he details a plan that supports small business owners, you can read about it here: http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/SmallBusinessFINAL.pdf

Provide Tax Relief for Small Businesses and Start Ups: Barack Obama believes that we need to reduce
burdens on small business owners, many of whom are struggling to succeed as health care and energy costs
continue to skyrocket. Barack Obama will support small business owners by providing a $500 “Making Work
Pay” tax credit to almost every worker in America. Self-employed small business owners pay both the
employee and the employer side of the payroll tax, and this measure will reduce the burdens of this double
taxation. Barack Obama will also eliminate all capital gains taxes on start-up businesses to encourage
innovation and job creation.

[Service Guy]

To be fair, here are McCain's economic ideas:

http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/Issues/4dbd2cc7-890e-47f1-882f-b8fc4cfecc78.htm

The economy is going to be a huge factor in this years election, probably #1 factor.

[ToUtahNow]

"business owners" is a broad term.

This quote is from Obama's website:



He's not all about raising taxes, at least not across the board.
Also, he details a plan that supports small business owners, you can read about it here: http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/SmallBusinessFINAL.pdf

Well on the face it sounds good but the tax break maxes out at $41.67 per month for an individual and $83.33 per month for a family. Now compare that to all of the new taxes he will have to invent to pay for all of his programs and you will likely need that $83.33 per month and a bunch more. When I look at all of the things he has promised I just wonder where he is going to find our money to pay for them. All of us will end up paying just by his change to the capital gains tax.

Mark

[Service Guy]

I could be wrong, but I believe Obama mainly wants to repeal the tax cuts to the wealthy. People making $500,000+/year for example. Yes, they will pay more (than they do currently) under his plan.

[Frankiarmz]

Like many here I am not pleased with either candidate or party. I won't rehash what everyone else already said, it just seems we lose with either of them. I know that the price of oil and everything it affects will hurt my family and many others so that's a major concern I will bring up again. Unlike the cost of the war and the cost of millions of illegals, oil prices hit me immediately. Will either candidate or party help with the oil crisis or any of these other serious problems? I don't think so. Where does that leave me and my precious vote? I have always voted, proud and happy to have a vote, but I am sitting here very disappointed and not excited about this election. God help us, I really mean that.

[ToUtahNow]

I could be wrong, but I believe Obama mainly wants to repeal the tax cuts to the wealthy. People making $500,000+/year for example. Yes, they will pay more (than they do currently) under his plan.

Just another talking point used by Obama. I guarantee taxes, or the cost of taxes, will go up across the board. That is not the way to stimulate the economy and a weak economy helps no one. Carter tried much of the same during a slightly sagging economy and flatly put the economy into a tail spin.

Mark

[Killertoiletspider]

Like many here I am not pleased with either candidate or party. I won't rehash what everyone else already said, it just seems we lose with either of them. I know that the price of oil and everything it affects will hurt my family and many others so that's a major concern I will bring up again. Unlike the cost of the war and the cost of millions of illegals, oil prices hit me immediately. Will either candidate or party help with the oil crisis or any of these other serious problems? I don't think so. Where does that leave me and my precious vote? I have always voted, proud and happy to have a vote, but I am sitting here very disappointed and not excited about this election. God help us, I really mean that.

The Green Party will announce their candidate after their convention in Chicago July 10-13, who they back may persuade me to not vote for myself.

[Service Guy]

The Green Party will announce their candidate after their convention in Chicago July 10-13, who they back may persuade me to not vote for myself.

:lol:

[Service Guy]

Just another talking point used by Obama. I guarantee taxes, or the cost of taxes, will go up across the board. That is not the way to stimulate the economy and a weak economy helps no one. Carter tried much of the same during a slightly sagging economy and flatly put the economy into a tail spin.

Mark

That does concern me a bit. I liked Bill Clinton's 'centrist' democratic ideals better. People say Obama is too far left, and I fear this too. I truly hope he is not like Carter if he gets elected.

I agree with everyone that its a hard choice this year. Dumb or dumber?...but we must decide one way or another.

[Service Guy]

4 pages and no huge fights (yet)! I am impressed, and thanks guys for keeping it civil so far.:way-to-go:

[ToUtahNow]

That does concern me a bit. I liked Bill Clinton's 'centrist' democratic ideals better. People say Obama is too far left, and I fear this too. I truly hope he is not like Carter if he gets elected.

I agree with everyone that its a hard choice this year. Dumb or dumber?...but we must decide one way or another.

I agree Clinton was more of a moderator between the two parties. I approved of much of what he did and disapproved of others. I do however believe he was a better President than he has been a past-President. There is no question he hurt Hilliary chance at President.

Mark

[NHMaster3015]

It's a great country we live in where you can be the biggest disater of a president in the history of the nation. The biggest bumbling baffoon, a man that coined the phrase "misery index" and still get a Nobel Peace Prize. Go figure :rolleyes:

I suspect Obama will make Carter look like a genius by comparison.

I don't really give a rats rear end who gets elected president. I'm keeping my eyes on the crooks that get elected to the house and senate. That's where the real corruption takes place.

[Tom W]

My issues are; women's reproductive health, Second Amendment, illegal aliens and Iraq.
The first two are more than likely to be resoved in the Superme Court. I am strongly pro-choice. I don't think Roe v. Wade will be overturned, it would be political suicide for any President to advocate for that. I would certainly vote democratic to maintain that law.

The Second Amendment issue currently being adjudicated in DC might be a factor in how I vote. If it is resolved in favor of gun ownership I will vote democratic based on my assumption that there will probably not be another challenge for a number of years. (Ultimately I believe the issue of gun ownership will be played out in the courts as a First Amendment issue.) If it is resolved in favor of gun control I will vote Republican so that more conservative judges have a chance to be appointed to the bench.

Illegal aliens are a major cause of economic problems in this country. We have it bad here in New York State because of the number of illegals in New York City. I can't imagine how bad it must be for residents of California. Somehow we have to stem the tide of illegals flooding into the US. How border security is promised will be an influencing factor with me.

I was initially in favor of the War on Terrorism, Battle of Iraq, but it has lingered way too long with, as far as I can tell, no readily quantifiable long term gains in terms of regional stability. Our loved ones are being killed and the economic costs are way beyond my comprehension. I would like to see our troops home. Take some of the money we are spending there in troop maintenance and bribe the creeps. Money talks and... you know the rest.

[Tom W]

The big goof got a Nobel Prize but he shared it with one of the biggest perpetrators of political unrest the world has seen.

As a person who lived through the Carter years I can tell you that there were a couple intrinsic benefits. If you had a job, and were able to buy a house, the double digit inflation worked in your favor. You buy your house at todays fixed interest rates, your pay increased because of inflation, and soon you are paying yesterday's bills with todays money.

Another thing that happened was bond rates paid exceptionally high yields. You could buy long term bonds, 30 years, paying tremendous interest. I bought some California Education bonds on the secondary market that paid 13%. Cheese Louise, that was and is big bucks, probably never to be seen again.

Even though I was in a position to take advantage of the bumbling, lying jerk's economics I still think he was at the root of many of the problems of today.

[biscuit]

Like Mark said, I too am not excited about either candidtate.

As far as their campaign speeches/promises. They are just that. I can not recall any politician at any level who accomplishes what he promised. Their hands are tied by the House and Senate that are elected on the state level. They are all about compromise and the "I'll vote for that, but you got to let me attach this on the bill" if you want yours passed.

Anyway, I am not going to "get on my high horse" here and ramble on and on.

McCain will get my vote.

[Masterplumb]

The big goof got a Nobel Prize but he shared it with one of the biggest perpetrators of political unrest the world has seen.

As a person who lived through the Carter years I can tell you that there were a couple intrinsic benefits. If you had a job, and were able to buy a house, the double digit inflation worked in your favor. You buy your house at todays fixed interest rates, your pay increased because of inflation, and soon you are paying yesterday's bills with todays money.

Another thing that happened was bond rates paid exceptionally high yields. You could buy long term bonds, 30 years, paying tremendous interest. I bought some California Education bonds on the secondary market that paid 13%. Cheese Louise, that was and is big bucks, probably never to be seen again.

Even though I was in a position to take advantage of the bumbling, lying jerk's economics I still think he was at the root of many of the problems of today.

What was the mortgage rate during that time???

[ToUtahNow]

What was the mortgage rate during that time???

Just shy of 18%. :eek:

Mark

[Service Guy]

All this trash-talk about Obama is fine, but unfortunately McCain seems to be more in the dark than Obama when it comes to economic policy! How will electing McCain help us, I just don't see his current plan as accomplishing much at all?
I still side with Obama thus far.

[Masterplumb]

All this trash-talk about Obama is fine, but unfortunately McCain seems to be more in the dark than Obama when it comes to economic policy! How will electing McCain help us, I just don't see his current plan as accomplishing much at all?
I still side with Obama thus far.


Obama couldn't enact any of his proposed plans when he was a State Senator in Illinois. What makes anyone believe he can enact it at the Federal level?

Right off the bat Obama will let the Bush tax cuts expire. Now say what you want about the tax cuts being for the rich (that may be somewhat true) but right off the bat the average middle class family's tax burden will increase by about $2,000.

Next he will go after big oil with windfall profit tax. Sounds good right? But remember businesses DONT pay taxes. What do you mean they dont pay taxes????? They dont, they pass it on to you and me. Just like you do if the price off a water heater goes up, you raise your price for the water heater. Two years ago many supply houses around here added a $10 surcharge to all deliveries, why? beacuse the price of gas went up. Its all relative.

McCain is definitely not my first choice nor is he the conservative answer but in my opinion he is a better choice then B.H. Obama. I guess it's what is more important to you. I cant see as a business owner how anyone believes BH Obama is a better choice.

[Rafael]

That's funny, McCain more in the dark than obama.
Obama thinks that by raising taxes that the economy will get better. It doesn't get more in the dark than that. Neither of these guys has a clue what to do to improve the economy.
They are both salesmen, selling snake oil. Neither knows anything about economics. Obama sells his snake oil to the left who believe raising taxes is the way to go. McCain is more centrist.
Obama gave a speech last week about how we need to raise the cap on FICA tax so the rich will pay more. I dont know about you guys, but living in and around L.A. making $130,000 a year is hardly rich, but obama thinks it is. How many of you make $130,000 a year? want to pay another $5000 in FICA? That is what obama proposes.

[smorris]

McCain - taxes (income and investment - it isn't just the rich. Obama's plans would effect me by thousands each year), 2nd amendment rights, support for the military, supreme court appointments, and his integrity and experience.

[Masterplumb]

[quote=Tom W;153356]My issues are; women's reproductive health, Second Amendment, illegal aliens and Iraq.
The first two are more than likely to be resoved in the Superme Court. I am strongly pro-choice. I don't think Roe v. Wade will be overturned, it would be political suicide for any President to advocate for that. I would certainly vote democratic to maintain that law.

The Second Amendment issue currently being adjudicated in DC might be a factor in how I vote. If it is resolved in favor of gun ownership I will vote democratic based on my assumption that there will probably not be another challenge for a number of years. (Ultimately I believe the issue of gun ownership will be played out in the courts as a First Amendment issue.) If it is resolved in favor of gun control I will vote Republican so that more conservative judges have a chance to be appointed to the bench.



quote]

I believe there are only 2 S.C. Judges presently serving that were put on by Democratic Presidents. The rest were put on by Republicans but some are left leaning on those issues

[Service Guy]

Mccain supporters definitely dominate in this forum! I admit you guys are scaring me away from Obama, as I respect your opinions. I really will have to see them debate the economic issues live. I am beginning to think NHmaster is right on, it almost doesn't matter who gets elected, there is so much bureaucratic BS going on in the government already.:(

[ToUtahNow]

Mccain supporters definitely dominate in this forum! I admit you guys are scaring me away from Obama, as I respect your opinions. I really will have to see them debate the economic issues live. I am beginning to think NHmaster is right on, it almost doesn't matter who gets elected, there is so much bureaucratic BS going on in the government already.:(

I believe you will be surprised to see how each candidate will effect your family if you are able to find info regarding both candidates from a non-basis source. Don't be scared into a vote but do vote informed.

Mark

[Tom W]

I really don't remember the mortgage rate exactly. I don't think I paid 18% but maybe. As I recall I paid about 12%. That was a number of years and houses ago.

[smorris]

Mortgage rates were 18%, passbook savings were 5%+, a 13 month CD was around 10-12%, a new car loan was 20-22%, and a used car loan was 24%. I had an 18 month federal farm credit loan investment where I earned 18%. That was a hit at tax time!

If the pending presidential candidate doesn't do anything for you, think about what his legacy might be. Do you want liberal or conservative judges appointed? Do you want your gain on your investments/retirement taxed higher or lower? Do you want your inheritance (or yours to your children) to be taxed higher or almost not at all? Do you want your children to inherit an even larger debt?

It does make a difference, even if only to counter a democratic house and senate.

[cpw]

If the pending presidential candidate doesn't do anything for you, think about what his legacy might be. Do you want liberal or conservative judges appointed? Do you want your gain on your investments/retirement taxed higher or lower? Do you want your inheritance (or yours to your children) to be taxed higher or almost not at all? Do you want your children to inherit an even larger debt?
Dick Morris made a good point on the Sean Hannity show today. Any taxes that Obama would enact can be rolled back easily in the future if Republicans retake congress, but if the healthcare system is socialized going back would be much more difficult.

[Killertoiletspider]

Dick Morris made a good point on the Sean Hannity show today. Any taxes that Obama would enact can be rolled back easily in the future if Republicans retake congress, but if the healthcare system is socialized going back would be much more difficult.

Obama is calling for insurance regulation, something that the industry with the largest lobbying body is dead against, because regulation strips them of the opportunity to manipulate current laws for their own profit and still raise rates without cause.

[Service Guy]

Dick Morris made a good point on the Sean Hannity show today. Any taxes that Obama would enact can be rolled back easily in the future if Republicans retake congress, but if the healthcare system is socialized going back would be much more difficult.

Personally, I support Obama's plan for a more socialized healthcare system. American healthcare as it stand currently is a giant mess.

[smorris]

Personally, I support Obama's plan for a more socialized healthcare system. American healthcare as it stand currently is a giant mess.

Have you ever talked to anyone from Canada about their socialized health care program? Sure, drugs are cheaper. But you get whatever doctor is assigned to you rather than who you want, and wait weeks to get an appointment. That's why so many Canadians come to Cleveland for the Cleveland Clinic or University Hospital's superior care. Care like that is not available to the average Canadian. We have some of the best health care in the world, but not necessarily the cheapest. I'd rather pay more for a good doctor than pay less of just anyone who happens to get their license to practice medicine.

You use that logic with the tools you purchase. Wouldn't you want to do the same with your health?

[SlimTim]

McCain.
Obama's economic policy posted here earlier is mostly doublespeak and sophistry. How does he define "working class"? The tax credits are paltry. If you try to soak the "rich" it will backfire. (I do believe most of us will be considered "rich"). And those breaks for "new business startups". How is that defined. "All" business friendly would be better.

But besides all that, when Obama was in the Illinois senate he blocked the partial birth abortion bill from coming to a vote. This wasn't a radical bill. In fact, it had the same wording as the national partial birth abortion bill that was unopposed in the senate (even boxer and snow voted for it).
Personally, anybody that's for whacking a fullly formed baby, that is half way in this world, with a pair of scissors in the back of the skull, ain't gonna get my vote.

[Service Guy]

Have you ever talked to anyone from Canada about their socialized health care program? Sure, drugs are cheaper. But you get whatever doctor is assigned to you rather than who you want, and wait weeks to get an appointment. That's why so many Canadians come to Cleveland for the Cleveland Clinic or University Hospital's superior care. Care like that is not available to the average Canadian.

I am not going to debate this. My wife is not from Canada, but she is from a country with socialized healthcare and I'd take that over what we have now any day. There are rich countries in Europe that have a higher average income and living standard than we do and yet they have socialized healthcare. If you like the system the way it is, thats fine. I personally do not.

[SlimTim]

Have you ever talked to anyone from Canada about their socialized health care program? Sure, drugs are cheaper. But you get whatever doctor is assigned to you rather than who you want, and wait weeks to get an appointment. That's why so many Canadians come to Cleveland for the Cleveland Clinic or University Hospital's superior care. Care like that is not available to the average Canadian. We have some of the best health care in the world, but not necessarily the cheapest. I'd rather pay more for agood doctor than pay less of just anyone who happens to get their license to practice medicine.


I'm vehemently opposed to socialized health care but Wooden Stickers gives an interesting account of his mother's (mother-in-laws?) experience that was favorable. Probably anectdotal though.

[Service Guy]

"Obama: A change you can believe in!"

That should get everybody riled up! :lmao:

I know everyone so far is anti-obama. I always liked playing devil's advocate.:grin-devilish: Its all in good fun.:D

[smorris]

I have no first hand knowledge of the Canadian system. All I know about it was sitting around in the halls of Cleveland Clinic for three weeks with my Dad in ICU. I had conversations with several Canadians here for medical care they couldn't get at home that said we'd be downright stupid to ever enact socialized health care.

[cpw]

I'm vehemently opposed to socialized health care but Wooden Stickers gives an interesting account of his mother's (mother-in-laws?) experience that was favorable. Probably anectdotal though.
I am also very opposed to socialized healthcare, but I think that even if you are for it; there is value in having it passed with two parties in power than just a single one. If you are going to make big, permanent changes to something that is very important I would argue that it makes sense to have those changes go through proper scrutiny from multiple perspectives.

I want a Republican president, if nothing else, to veto the most aggregious things that come out of the Democratic controlled congress. I sometimes think that having the Republicans in congress and Bush in the Whitehouse has done us a disservice, because they were too chummy and just increasd the size of government spending money like there's no tomorrow (and for politicians there isn't, by the time "tomorrow" comes they'll have a cushy job at a lobbying firm or hedge fund).

[Service Guy]

I have no first hand knowledge of the Canadian system. All I know about it was sitting around in the halls of Cleveland Clinic for three weeks with my Dad in ICU. I had conversations with several Canadians here for medical care they couldn't get at home that said we'd be downright stupid to ever enact socialized health care.
I don't have firsthand knowledge of Canada's system either smorris.
Huh, all the Canadians I have talked to have thought it laughable that we don't have it yet.:scratchhead:

[Killertoiletspider]

Have you ever talked to anyone from Canada about their socialized health care program? Sure, drugs are cheaper. But you get whatever doctor is assigned to you rather than who you want, and wait weeks to get an appointment. That's why so many Canadians come to Cleveland for the Cleveland Clinic or University Hospital's superior care. Care like that is not available to the average Canadian. We have some of the best health care in the world, but not necessarily the cheapest. I'd rather pay more for a good doctor than pay less of just anyone who happens to get their license to practice medicine.

You use that logic with the tools you purchase. Wouldn't you want to do the same with your health?

Obama is is not seeking socialized healthcare as much as he is seeking insurance regulation, something that would benefit everyone in this country be they rich or poor. The biggest group of criminals in this country are the insurance companies, because they can use this countries laws to legally steal from their customers.

That being said, I really doubt Obama can ram insurance regulation through congress, the industry has too many lobbyists for that to happen, so I will still probably vote for myself for president.

[Service Guy]

Are there ANY Obama supporters out there? Anyone, anyone, bueller, bueller.....:D
He is leading in the polls currently, but this forum seems to be all republicans!

[cpw]

Are there ANY Obama supporters out there? Anyone, anyone, bueller, bueller.....:D
He is leading in the polls currently, but this forum seems to be all republicans!
I see plenty of Obama stickers in the parking lot where I work, none for McCain.

[DuckButter]

I've been silently stalking, waiting my chance to wave a finger at service guy for starting this thread and wadaya know...no fighting..l.what the heck is wrong with you guys?!?!
This is politics...right??


Seriously, I have been incredibly enlightened on a few topics, but in the the end I stand by what I said about campaign promises and proven track records.
A man that would refuse to be released from a pow camp unless his brothers went with him is a man that will do what he knows to be right.

He may not be an economist, he may not be a rocket scientist, but neither is Obama.

For me, take away all the bells, whistles, smoke & mirrors and it boils down to the basic nature of each man.

I trust the nature of McCain, I like that nature in a time where the greatest country in the world desperately needs integrity rather than the usual campaign promises.

[Frankiarmz]

I've been silently stalking, waiting my chance to wave a finger at service guy for starting this thread and wadaya know...no fighting..l.what the heck is wrong with you guys?!?!
This is politics...right??


Seriously, I have been incredibly enlightened on a few topics, but in the the end I stand by what I said about campaign promises and proven track records.
A man that would refuse to be released from a pow camp unless his brothers went with him is a man that will do what he knows to be right.

He may not be an economist, he may not be a rocket scientist, but neither is Obama.

For me, take away all the bells, whistles, smoke & mirrors and it boils down to the basic nature of each man.

I trust the nature of McCain, I like that nature in a time where the greatest country in the world desperately needs integrity rather than the usual campaign promises.

Honest, respectful and to the point. Service Guy is just begging for this to turn nasty or at least find an obama supporter. I've said I would vote for obama over McCain, but I'm not feeling good about any of this. I flat out never cared for republican politics, always seemed anti Union and anti Labor. That's a good thing for you folks who own/run your own businesses, not for an employee or Union person. I want to see our troops the hell out of iraq and I want those people to defend their own country and Pay for it! Why did the trillion dollars come out of our pockets? We have a trade deficit and failing economy and iraq is on the upswing. Back to the candidates, Obama could well be nothing but smoke and mirrors, fearing this to be the case I really don't know if I can vote for the man. Too bad we can't hold these candidates to their campaign promises, put up or get out. Neither will secure our borders and deal with the illegals which sickens me to no end. Not to leave the democrats untouched, they have so far done a lousy job in my opinion and I have no confidence that they will improve anything in the future. I don't want war and I don't want higher taxes. Looks like I don't have a candidate to vote for and I don't have a political party that represents my hopes and wishes for my future and the future of my country. Not much of a support for Obama but it was the best I could offer. I have a bad feeling that both sides somehow wish the other will win just to say I told you so as things get worse. Here's a question to the Forum, so many things got worse under President Bush and without blaming him for all these problems, does anyone really think that Obama or McCain can turn it around?

[Service Guy]

I am glad I started this thread. There has been no fighting, just minor debating. I have learned some things already, and I'm sure others have too. The more informed we all are, the better for this country we all share. :)

[woodenstickers]

I am just getting in here to be part of the not fighting. I will not be voting for any candidate because I am a felon.

Or a Canadian. Same difference.:D

Even though I have expoused liberal points of view in here and in the real world many times, I have to admit, as I get older I am getting more toward the right. As they say, the youth who does not believe in socialism is without a heart, the elder who does is without a mind.

I pay too much taxes, and without representation I might add!:eek:

I will survive McCain. I will survive Obama. I'm just glad I survived Bush.

See? I can do it too. Civil and unconfrontational. (idiots):nanner:



Eli

[Masterplumb]

Personally, I support Obama's plan for a more socialized healthcare system. American healthcare as it stand currently is a giant mess.

Think about this. The federal government cant take care of the social security program, how do you expect them to take care of a government healthcare program.

Just think what it's like to go to the D.M.V., now imagine those same people "greeting" you at the doctors office or hospital.

I can see it now walking into the emergency room" nurse, nurse, help my husband he's having a heart attack", "yeah, Im still on break, Ill be with you shortly"

[cpw]

Obama is is not seeking socialized healthcare as much as he is seeking insurance regulation, something that would benefit everyone in this country be they rich or poor. The biggest group of criminals in this country are the insurance companies, because they can use this countries laws to legally steal from their customers.

That being said, I really doubt Obama can ram insurance regulation through congress, the industry has too many lobbyists for that to happen, so I will still probably vote for myself for president.
I disagree with you about insurance companies stealing from their customers, but do think there are some problems.

The two things that annoy me most about healthcare billing:
(1) Doctors inflate their prices so the insurance companies can get a discount. This means people without insurance are screwed because they have to pay more than an insurance company would pay.
(2) The cost of care is unrelated to what a large segment of the population pays for care. People are very careful when it comes to spending their money, but with most health insurance you have no incentive to spend other people's money wisely.

I actually think that one of the problems with the insurance industry is too many parallel regulation systems. Every single state has different regulations for insurance, making it much harder (i.e. more expensive) to comply with them. I would support scrapping the state regulation and regulating at the federal level. Normally, I believe that the states should do more and the feds less; but in this case I think that the interstate commerce clause applies well, so congress wouldn't be overstepping its authority.

[Service Guy]

Think about this. The federal government cant take care of the social security program, how do you expect them to take care of a government healthcare program.

Just think what it's like to go to the D.M.V., now imagine those same people "greeting" you at the doctors office or hospital.

I can see it now walking into the emergency room" nurse, nurse, help my husband he's having a heart attack", "yeah, Im still on break, Ill be with you shortly"

A gross exaggeration makes for a poor argument.:rolleyes:

[Killertoiletspider]

I disagree with you about insurance companies stealing from their customers, but do think there are some problems.

The two things that annoy me most about healthcare billing:
(1) Doctors inflate their prices so the insurance companies can get a discount. This means people without insurance are screwed because they have to pay more than an insurance company would pay.
(2) The cost of care is unrelated to what a large segment of the population pays for care. People are very careful when it comes to spending their money, but with most health insurance you have no incentive to spend other people's money wisely.

I actually think that one of the problems with the insurance industry is too many parallel regulation systems. Every single state has different regulations for insurance, making it much harder (i.e. more expensive) to comply with them. I would support scrapping the state regulation and regulating at the federal level. Normally, I believe that the states should do more and the feds less; but in this case I think that the interstate commerce clause applies well, so congress wouldn't be overstepping its authority.

I am not speaking strictly about health care, I am referring to the entire insurance industry in all aspects. There is no bigger group committing legal theft than them.

[Masterplumb]

A gross exaggeration makes for a poor argument.:rolleyes:

If you want civil servants taking care of you thats fine. I would much rather have my choice of doctors.

[NHMaster3015]

Health care is a non issue. Both candidates will posture and postulate on the woe's of the system, but neither they nor the congress is about to anything about it other than issue lip service. It's one of those favorite candidate issues because they can all sound like they care but in truth they know damn well that there are billions, if not trillions of dollars at stake here. It's the same as the abortion issue. There will be heated, passionate debate by both sides, but it will never be repealed. Neither will we do anything about welfare reform, the IRS, tort reform or illegal aliens. All issues without resolve and all because there are billions of dollars at stake. Ours is a government of special interest and handouts. I will vote for the first candidate that swears a solemn oath to DO NOTHING. Because everytime they do something, it cost me and you.

[Service Guy]

If you want civil servants taking care of you thats fine. I would much rather have my choice of doctors.

Nobody is talking about not having a choice of doctors. Have you even read about Obama's plan at all?

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/healthcare/

National Health Insurance Exchange: The Obama plan will create a National Health Insurance Exchange to help individuals who wish to purchase a private insurance plan. The Exchange will act as a watchdog group and help reform the private insurance market by creating rules and standards for participating insurance plans to ensure fairness and to make individual coverage more affordable and accessible. Insurers would have to issue every applicant a policy, and charge fair and stable premiums that will not depend upon health status. The Exchange will require that all the plans offered are at least as generous as the new public plan and have the same standards for quality and efficiency. The Exchange would evaluate plans and make the differences among the plans, including cost of services, public.

[ToUtahNow]

Nobody is talking about not having a choice of doctors. Have you even read about Obama's plan at all?

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/healthcare/

National Health Insurance Exchange: The Obama plan will create a National Health Insurance Exchange to help individuals who wish to purchase a private insurance plan. The Exchange will act as a watchdog group and help reform the private insurance market by creating rules and standards for participating insurance plans to ensure fairness and to make individual coverage more affordable and accessible. Insurers would have to issue every applicant a policy, and charge fair and stable premiums that will not depend upon health status. The Exchange will require that all the plans offered are at least as generous as the new public plan and have the same standards for quality and efficiency. The Exchange would evaluate plans and make the differences among the plans, including cost of services, public.




While what Obama is promising sounds good do you think he could really provide it? After all what would the incentive be to belong to a public program if you could get a private program? Then again why would a private program want to compete with the public program unless the public program was blotted full of waste to begin with? The difference in the plan I belong to are already public.

Mark

[DuckButter]

Right Mark, symptomatic of someone lacking experience and over-simplifying the task.

Again, he says neat stuff, but so would I if I were running for prez.

[Masterplumb]

Nobody is talking about not having a choice of doctors. Have you even read about Obama's plan at all?

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/healthcare/

Carl, I dont care to read Obama's or anyone else's health care plan. You see I am very happy with the health care that I have currently. I pay for the coverage I want. It is not the federal government's responsibility or duty to provide "affordable health care". You asked if I ever read Obama's plan? Well have you ever read the constitution of the United States of America or the Declaration of Independance? Tell me where does it say that everyone is entitled to life, liberty, the persuit of happiness and the right to affordable health care? It doesn't, the federal government needs to keep it's nose out of healthcare. If anything it is up to the individual states to provide those programs.

How many people that say they can't afford healthcare have cell phones, flat screen tv's, cars, take vacations, spend all their money on things that are not necessities? I doubt there is a high percentage of people that can't afford healthcare, they just have their priorities mixed up.

You may call my talking points a "gross exageration" but as most here admit the government screws or has screwed everything up, what would possibly make you believe that they can get the healthcare issue right? We need less governmentin our lives, not more.

I want affordable plasma t.v.'s, ferraris, hawaiin vacations and yachts and I want Uncle Sam to pay for it. Its not that far fetched from "affordable healthcare"

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html

[Service Guy]

Carl, I dont care to read Obama's or anyone else's health care plan. You see I am very happy with the health care that I have currently. I pay for the coverage I want. It is not the federal government's responsibility or duty to provide "affordable health care". You asked if I ever read Obama's plan? Well have you ever read the constitution of the United States of America or the Declaration of Independance? Tell me where does it say that everyone is entitled to life, liberty, the persuit of happiness and the right to affordable health care? It doesn't, the federal government needs to keep it's nose out of healthcare. If anything it is up to the individual states to provide those programs.

How many people that say they can't afford healthcare have cell phones, flat screen tv's, cars, take vacations, spend all their money on things that are not necessities? I doubt there is a high percentage of people that can't afford healthcare, they just have their priorities mixed up.

You may call my talking points a "gross exageration" but as most here admit the government screws or has screwed everything up, what would possibly make you believe that they can get the healthcare issue right? We need less governmentin our lives, not more.

I want affordable plasma t.v.'s, ferraris, hawaiin vacations and yachts and I want Uncle Sam to pay for it. Its not that far fetched from "affordable healthcare"

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html

Thats better. :thumbup2: Strong argument. The individual's responsibility and liberty go hand in hand. I won't argue against your point, as it would get very complicated and your point is a very strong one. I'll just say that we should abolish medicaid also to support the view you presented. Because why should unemployed, or working poor get free handouts from the government, when others do not?
For example, my wife works very hard at her job and pays for her health insurance, she can't understand why her poor friend doesn't have to pay for services that she gets through medicaid, while my wife has to pay high co-pays ON TOP OF high insurance premiums for some of the same services that her poor friend gets free!!! Now that is socialism, and the worst kind! So one lady makes part-time minimum wage and gets free heatlhcare, while my wife works much more hours at a much more demanding job, and yet pays a bunch for health insurance and still has to pay copays for basic service...it makes no sense. Why give free health insurance only to the poor, why not make it accessible to the middle class also? Or give it to nobody and at least make it fair. What we are currently doing in this country is madness imo.:mad:
Rewarding laziness while punishing hard work.

[tinmack]

Okay.....here's my random thoughts....

Health care in Canada is probably better than most think. Wait times/doctor choices vary depending on the area you live in. Some major centers have longer waits but better doctor choice while smaller areas have shorter waits but have to travel for more specialized services.

Long wait times for specialized MRI, specialized cancer tests, transplant stuff, can push people with money to the US and farther afield. People, both American, Canadian, and others, have travelled to India or China for lower cost, specialized/experimental procedures not available in Canada or the United States.

I can probably get in to see my doctor tomorrow if I want to. Outpatient wait times after hours would be a little longer. One of my best friends is a doctor in the States and he notes, as others, that the quality and briskness of treatment in the United States is great. Canada has a tenth of the population of the United States, so perhaps that is certainly a consideration regarding universal healthcare. I dunno......

As far as candidates for President, McCain is a fossil and Obama is way too young. That said, McCain seems to me to try and play both sides of the fence - he seems friendly to Dem social policies, yet Republican in his taxation. In Canada, he'd probably be a "Red Tory". It would be bizarre if he picked Lieberman as his running mate.....

Obama is exceptionally well spoken, great sound bite, and you gotta hand it to the guy for the groundswell, grassroots campaign. I don't know if he's got much substance, though. He's almost too left in some ways. I've always believed in being fiscally conservative and liberal with the social programs - whether you've got a proper mix in each candidate may be too early to tell.

As far as other issues, I think the US is in Iraq for the long haul, unfortunately, regardless of who gets in. McCain's "Bomb, bomb, bomb,...bomb, bomb, Iran" Beach Boy-type jingle from a couple years ago kinda makes me uneasy as to if the troops did come back from Iraq would they find another place to send them?? Afghanistan seems to need a bunch more....

Free trade is here to stay, like it or not. Hillary hinted at renegotiations, so did Obama...McCain was just up here last week in Toronto talking his support for it. Hillary and Obama were just blowing smoke for the Detroit primaries. Nobody is going to mess with renegotiating Free Trade. Out of the top three oil exporters to the US, Canada is number one and Mexico is number three. So if you're voting for Obama 'cause he says he's gonna re-negotiate NAFTA, it ain't gonna happen. I'll bet a K-60 with anyone on this forum to that effect.

My final thought, to keep from rambling, is a personal observation regarding the United States Presidential election itself....

Between primary and general election spending, this election will cost over ONE BILLION DOLLARS. Obama's currently got a war chest right now that's over 200 million AFTER he spent a bunch in the primaries. Hillary lent her campaign over 10 million. Mitt Romney spent 40 MILLION of his own money on his failed bid.

All for a job that pays less than 300 grand a year...

If you went to your accountant and told him you were gonna spend 10 million to land a contract that paid you 300 grand for a 4 year term, what would he tell you> How about 300 million??

When 36 million people in the United States live at or below the poverty line(as of 2006), those are certainly some startling figures to think about.

http://www.results.org/website/article.asp?id=350

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/money/index.html

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/money/money.archive.html

[ToUtahNow]

Thats better. :thumbup2: Strong argument. The individual's responsibility and liberty go hand in hand. I won't argue against your point, as it would get very complicated and your point is a very strong one. I'll just say that we should abolish medicaid also to support the view you presented. Because why should unemployed, or working poor get free handouts from the government, when others do not?
For example, my wife works very hard at her job and pays for her health insurance, she can't understand why her poor friend doesn't have to pay for services that she gets through medicaid, while my wife has to pay high co-pays ON TOP OF high insurance premiums for some of the same services that her poor friend gets free!!! Now that is socialism, and the worst kind! So one lady makes part-time minimum wage and gets free heatlhcare, while my wife works much more hours at a much more demanding job, and yet pays a bunch for health insurance and still has to pay copays for basic service...it makes no sense.Why give free health insurance only to the poor, why not make it accessible to the middle class also? Or give it to nobody and at least make it fair. What we are currently doing in this country is madness imo.:mad:
Rewarding laziness while punishing hard work.

Just keep in mind when the government gives you something for free all they are really doing is mismanaging your money to pay for services they are going to give you.

Mark

[cpw]

What we are currently doing in this country is madness imo.:mad:
Rewarding laziness while punishing hard work.
:bravo:

[Service Guy]

Just keep in mind when the government gives you something for free all they are really doing is mismanaging your money to pay for services they are going to give you.

Mark

Fair enough, then like I said, why not go full-blast capitalism and abolish medicaid, welfare, social security, food stamps, low-income housing?...abolish all governmant managed socio-economic programs.

[ToUtahNow]

Fair enough, then like I said, why not go full-blast capitalism and abolish medicaid, welfare, social security, food stamps, low-income housing?...abolish all governmant managed socio-economic programs.

Because there are people who truly need aid and it's not their fault others take advantage of the system. I believe things were better off in this country when being on the dole was a bad thing.

Mark

[Masterplumb]

Fair enough, then like I said, why not go full-blast capitalism and abolish medicaid, welfare, social security, food stamps, low-income housing?...abolish all governmant managed socio-economic programs.

Because you need to help people when they are down. You need to help the get back on their feet. Its the ones that abuse the system that ruin it.

[Killertoiletspider]

Because you need to help people when they are down. You need to help the get back on their feet. Its the ones that abuse the system that ruin it.

The system itself is designed to welcome misuse.

[Masterplumb]

Okay.....here's my random thoughts....

Health care in Canada is probably better than most think. Wait times/doctor choices vary depending on the area you live in. Some major centers have longer waits but better doctor choice while smaller areas have shorter waits but have to travel for more specialized services.

Long wait times for specialized MRI, specialized cancer tests, transplant stuff, can push people with money to the US and farther afield. People, both American, Canadian, and others, have travelled to India or China for lower cost, specialized/experimental procedures not available in Canada or the United States.

I can probably get in to see my doctor tomorrow if I want to. Outpatient wait times after hours would be a little longer. One of my best friends is a doctor in the States and he notes, as others, that the quality and briskness of treatment in the United States is great. Canada has a tenth of the population of the United States, so perhaps that is certainly a consideration regarding universal healthcare. I dunno......

As far as candidates for President, McCain is a fossil and Obama is way too young. That said, McCain seems to me to try and play both sides of the fence - he seems friendly to Dem social policies, yet Republican in his taxation. In Canada, he'd probably be a "Red Tory". It would be bizarre if he picked Lieberman as his running mate.....That aint gonna happen the Conservaties would flip out

Obama is exceptionally well spoken, great sound bite, and you gotta hand it to the guy for the groundswell, grassroots campaign. I don't know if he's got much substance, though. He's almost too left in some ways. I've always believed in being fiscally conservative and liberal with the social programs - whether you've got a proper mix in each candidate may be too early to tell.

Talk about an oxymoron

As far as other issues, I think the US is in Iraq for the long haul, unfortunately, regardless of who gets in. McCain's "Bomb, bomb, bomb,...bomb, bomb, Iran" Beach Boy-type jingle from a couple years ago kinda makes me uneasy as to if the troops did come back from Iraq would they find another place to send them?? Afghanistan seems to need a bunch more....

How about Canada chipping in a bit more?

Free trade is here to stay, like it or not. Hillary hinted at renegotiations, so did Obama...McCain was just up here last week in Toronto talking his support for it. Hillary and Obama were just blowing smoke for the Detroit primaries. Nobody is going to mess with renegotiating Free Trade. Out of the top three oil exporters to the US, Canada is number one and Mexico is number three. So if you're voting for Obama 'cause he says he's gonna re-negotiate NAFTA, it ain't gonna happen. I'll bet a K-60 with anyone on this forum to that effect.

Kind of like most of what he says


My final thought, to keep from rambling, is a personal observation regarding the United States Presidential election itself....

Between primary and general election spending, this election will cost over ONE BILLION DOLLARS. Obama's currently got a war chest right now that's over 200 million AFTER he spent a bunch in the primaries. Hillary lent her campaign over 10 million. Mitt Romney spent 40 MILLION of his own money on his failed bid.

All for a job that pays less than 300 grand a year...

If you went to your accountant and told him you were gonna spend 10 million to land a contract that paid you 300 grand for a 4 year term, what would he tell you> How about 300 million??

How about all the money and prestige that comes after you're out of the White House?

When 36 million people in the United States live at or below the poverty line(as of 2006), those are certainly some startling figures to think about.

http://www.results.org/website/article.asp?id=350

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/money/index.html

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/money/money.archive.html

.

[Masterplumb]

The system itself is designed to welcome misuse.

Yes it is. But so is the game of golf, thats why they call it a gentlemens game.

[ToUtahNow]

When 36 million people in the United States live at or below the poverty line(as of 2006), those are certainly some startling figures to think about.



Assuming those numbers are correct that puts the US poverty level 0.6% higher than Canada's. I'm wondering how many of those living in poverty are illegal aliens.

Mark

[tinmack]

I didn't post looking for any responses, especially incorrect/misinformed ones. Oh well, the forum's full of it.
Obama is exceptionally well spoken, great sound bite, and you gotta hand it to the guy for the groundswell, grassroots campaign. I don't know if he's got much substance, though. He's almost too left in some ways. I've always believed in being fiscally conservative and liberal with the social programs - whether you've got a proper mix in each candidate may be too early to tell.

Talk about an oxymoron

I wasn't necessarily talking about "spending liberally"...Although oxymoron is good....someone give you a "word of the day" calendar?


As far as other issues, I think the US is in Iraq for the long haul, unfortunately, regardless of who gets in. McCain's "Bomb, bomb, bomb,...bomb, bomb, Iran" Beach Boy-type jingle from a couple years ago kinda makes me uneasy as to if the troops did come back from Iraq would they find another place to send them?? Afghanistan seems to need a bunch more....

How about Canada chipping in a bit more?

How about reading up on Canada a bit before you start commenting??
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada's_role_in_the_invasion_of_Afghanistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada's_role_in_the_invasion_of_Afghanistan)

You know where Canada is located....right?? Here's some info on that too..

http://canada.gc.ca/acanada/ViewCategory.htm?lang=eng (http://canada.gc.ca/acanada/ViewCategory.htm?lang=eng)

[tinmack]

Assuming those numbers are correct that puts the US poverty level 0.6% higher than Canada's. I'm wondering how many of those living in poverty are illegal aliens.

Mark

The 2006 percentage in poverty was little different from 2003, 2004 and 2005, but up from 11.3 percent in 2000. The statistics come from the briefing page (http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/poverty06/pov06hi.html) of the U.S. Census Bureau (http://www.census.gov/) Website.

This is from the site I posted the link to. If they're on the census bureau data, could they still be illegal?

[Frankiarmz]

"Free trade is here to stay, like it or not. Hillary hinted at renegotiations, so did Obama...McCain was just up here last week in Toronto talking his support for it. Hillary and Obama were just blowing smoke for the Detroit primaries. Nobody is going to mess with renegotiating Free Trade. Out of the top three oil exporters to the US, Canada is number one and Mexico is number three. So if you're voting for Obama 'cause he says he's gonna re-negotiate NAFTA, it ain't gonna happen. I'll bet a K-60 with anyone on this forum to that effect."

It's not free trade, it's anything but free trade when we have the largest deficit in history. The game is fixed with other countries enforcing all sorts of restrictions againt us and we just keep importing with no penalties against them. Same goes for the ten to twenty million illegals working our system to death while Americans go without work and are insulted for not working below minimum wage. Keep shipping jobs to india and china and you won't be betting a K-60 but food stamps. I seriously don't see how our country/economy can withstand the gross inequities people define as "Free Trade", and "The Global Economy". :mad:

[tinmack]

It's not free trade, it's anything but free trade when we have the largest deficit in history. The game is fixed with other countries enforcing all sorts of restrictions againt us and we just keep importing with no penalties against them. Same goes for the ten to twenty million illegals working our system to death while Americans go without work and are insulted for not working below minimum wage. Keep shipping jobs to india and china and you won't be betting a K-60 but food stamps. I seriously don't see how our country/economy can withstand the gross inequities people define as "Free Trade", and "The Global Economy". :mad:

Well, that's what they call it. Every time I pay taxes/duty/brokerage on something I buy from the States it definitely ain't free either! Where's my free trade dammit!!:mad:;)

[Masterplumb]

I didn't post looking for any responses, especially incorrect/misinformed ones. Oh well, the forum's full of it.
Obama is exceptionally well spoken, great sound bite, and you gotta hand it to the guy for the groundswell, grassroots campaign. I don't know if he's got much substance, though. He's almost too left in some ways. I've always believed in being fiscally conservative and liberal with the social programs - whether you've got a proper mix in each candidate may be too early to tell.

Talk about an oxymoron

I wasn't necessarily talking about "spending liberally"...Although oxymoron is good....someone give you a "word of the day" calendar?


As far as other issues, I think the US is in Iraq for the long haul, unfortunately, regardless of who gets in. McCain's "Bomb, bomb, bomb,...bomb, bomb, Iran" Beach Boy-type jingle from a couple years ago kinda makes me uneasy as to if the troops did come back from Iraq would they find another place to send them?? Afghanistan seems to need a bunch more....

How about Canada chipping in a bit more?

How about reading up on Canada a bit before you start commenting??
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada's_role_in_the_invasion_of_Afghanistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada's_role_in_the_invasion_of_Afghanistan)

You know where Canada is located....right?? Here's some info on that too..

http://canada.gc.ca/acanada/ViewCategory.htm?lang=eng (http://canada.gc.ca/acanada/ViewCategory.htm?lang=eng)

How did you know? Oxymoron how about we learned that in the 4th grade. I've seen your type before, you just cant help yourself with that liberal elitist attitude.


I could give 2 craps about Canada. They dont spend the money on military because they know they have a strong neighbor to the immediate south. That is a fact, and furthermore it's probably the reason you guys have the money to pay for your socialized healthcare.

You may think you are better or smarter, you just can't help it. It's the liberal way. Take care and sleep well tonight because you know that your big brother south of you is protecting you.

[ToUtahNow]

The 2006 percentage in poverty was little different from 2003, 2004 and 2005, but up from 11.3 percent in 2000. The statistics come from the briefing page (http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/poverty06/pov06hi.html) of the U.S. Census Bureau (http://www.census.gov/) Website.

This is from the site I posted the link to. If they're on the census bureau data, could they still be illegal?

Yes the census does not check legal status only that you are in the country. I'm not sure if Canada's count includes illegals but I know ours does. A conservative guess of illegals in the US is about 22-million.

Mark

[tinmack]

It's not free trade, it's anything but free trade when we have the largest deficit in history. The game is fixed with other countries enforcing all sorts of restrictions againt us and we just keep importing with no penalties against them. Same goes for the ten to twenty million illegals working our system to death while Americans go without work and are insulted for not working below minimum wage. Keep shipping jobs to india and china and you won't be betting a K-60 but food stamps. I seriously don't see how our country/economy can withstand the gross inequities people define as "Free Trade", and "The Global Economy". :mad:

These guys would probably disagree with you.......but I won't....'cause you got those armz...
http://www.heritage.org/Research/TradeandForeignAid/BG1462.cfm

[Masterplumb]

The 2006 percentage in poverty was little different from 2003, 2004 and 2005, but up from 11.3 percent in 2000. The statistics come from the briefing page (http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/poverty06/pov06hi.html) of the U.S. Census Bureau (http://www.census.gov/) Website.

This is from the site I posted the link to. If they're on the census bureau data, could they still be illegal?

You do not need to be a citizen to be included in the census. Maybe you should study that census bureau website a little more.

[JCsPlumbing]

Because you need to help people when they are down. You need to help the get back on their feet. Its the ones that abuse the system that ruin it.

Don't know who to vote for or much input to help others but I would like to comment on the current posts in this thread.

I would be interested to see what would happen if healthcare was truly put to the test of capitalism. It's the only market I can think of in America that is not.

Supply-demand Cost-Service Free Market Competition.

Go to ANY hospital and ask for their price sheet. If they don't have one, there not in the capitalistic market. And I believe that's a big reason for the healthcare problems.

As far as helping freeloaders, we are all responsible for ourselves.

We're responsible for our successes, we're responsible for our failures.

The most prominent people I've known seem to follow this.

J.C.

[tinmack]

Yes the census does not check legal status only that you are in the country. I'm not sure if Canada's count includes illegals but I know ours does. A conservative guess of illegals in the US is about 22-million.

Mark


I dunno. Spooky how it's roughly the same percentage in either place.

[tinmack]

You do not need to be a citizen to be included in the census. Maybe you should study that census bureau website a little more.

It said they did a sampling of households. So I guess just because you're illegal doesn't mean your necessarily homeless. Like living in a van down by the river. Then again, I've seen some vans that were probably nicer than some shacks I've ventured into.

[ToUtahNow]

I dunno. Spooky how it's roughly the same percentage in either place.

Yeah I try to spend some time in Alberta every year and I am always surprised at the similarities.

Mark

[Frankiarmz]

Well, that's what they call it. Every time I pay taxes/duty/brokerage on something I buy from the States it definitely ain't free either! Where's my free trade dammit!!:mad:;)

Once again Mr. Nolte and I agree, I need a drink!:D

[tinmack]

How did you know? Oxymoron how about we learned that in the 4th grade. I've seen your type before, you just cant help yourself with that liberal elitist attitude.


I could give 2 craps about Canada. They dont spend the money on military because they know they have a strong neighbor to the immediate south. That is a fact, and furthermore it's probably the reason you guys have the money to pay for your socialized healthcare.

You may think you are better or smarter, you just can't help it. It's the liberal way. Take care and sleep well tonight because you know that your big brother south of you is protecting you.

Protecting me from what? Misinformed, insular, bigoted narcissists like yourself?

[Service Guy]

How did you know? Oxymoron how about we learned that in the 4th grade. I've seen your type before, you just cant help yourself with that liberal elitist attitude.


I could give 2 craps about Canada. They dont spend the money on military because they know they have a strong neighbor to the immediate south. That is a fact, and furthermore it's probably the reason you guys have the money to pay for your socialized healthcare.

You may think you are better or smarter, you just can't help it. It's the liberal way. Take care and sleep well tonight because you know that your big brother south of you is protecting you.

Wow, no need to be so arrogant. Lets keep this civil.:smash:

[Masterplumb]

Wow, no need to be so arrogant. Lets keep this civil.:smash:

Arrogant? go read the other posts then tell me whos arrogant. Until then dont moderate me.

[Service Guy]

Protecting me from what? Misinformed, insular, bigoted narcissists like yourself?

C'mon guys, personal attacks are not welcome in this thread.:nono:

[Frankiarmz]

Wow, no need to be so arrogant. Lets keep this civil.:smash:

My money is on Mr.Nolte if it gets physical!

[Masterplumb]

Protecting me from what? Misinformed, insular, bigoted narcissists like yourself?


Yeah, you figured me out. Geez you are a rocket scientist!

[tinmack]

My money is on Mr.Nolte if it gets physical!

Yesss.....my power is in my shirt.....

And my wild, unruly, woke-up-in-the-gutter hair...

[Service Guy]

I just don't want this thread shutdown because of personal attacks. It has been very informative and I think its an important topic to keep open until the election.

[Frankiarmz]

Yeah, you figured me out. Geez you are a rocket scientist!

In my opinion we should be upset with Mexico and not our friends to the North. Let's agree to disagree and spread the feelings of peace and love.:angel2:

[Masterplumb]

My money is on Mr.Nolte if it gets physical!

Another genius!

[Frankiarmz]

Another genius!

Watch it tough guy, Eastchester is a short trip from Norwalk, CT! You're just lucky my hands hurt from chopping wood to heat my house next winter. That and the fact that I'm low on gas.

[tinmack]

Watch it tough guy, Eastchester is a short trip from Norwalk, CT! You're just lucky my hands hurt from chopping wood to heat my house next winter. That and the fact that I'm low on gas.


Eat some beans......:D

[Masterplumb]

Watch it tough guy, Eastchester is a short trip from Norwalk, CT! You're just lucky my hands hurt from chopping wood to heat my house next winter. That and the fact that I'm low on gas.

Ill take that as a joke Franki, as I am too familiar with I-84

[Masterplumb]

Eat some beans......:D

Dont you just love my new avatar tinmack

[JCsPlumbing]

:rotflmao:That several posts between three of you that pretty much don't say anything. Killing me.

Like kids in the sandbox arguing if Superman or Batman is cooler.:rotflmao1:

J.C.

[tinmack]

:rotflmao:That several posts between three of you that pretty much don't say anything. Killing me.

Like kids in the sandbox arguing if Superman or Batman is cooler.:rotflmao1:

J.C.

Dude....it's Batman of course.......

[Masterplumb]

Dude....it's Batman of course.......

That figures, you would like a man in a tight suit that hung around with little boys.

[Masterplumb]

:rotflmao:That several posts between three of you that pretty much don't say anything. Killing me.

Like kids in the sandbox arguing if Superman or Batman is cooler.:rotflmao1:

J.C.

When I grow up I want to be just like you

[cpw]

That figures, you would like a man in a tight suit that hung around with little boys.
Oh come on. Batman has a cooler car and more tools. :)

On a more serious note, there are few countries that share as many values with the United States as Canada does.

[Frankiarmz]

When I grow up I want to be just like you

Yes, I was joking earlier. Superman, hands down!

[Masterplumb]

Oh come on. Batman has a cooler car and more tools. :)

On a more serious note, there are few countries that share as many values with the United States as Canada does.

I have nothing against Canada or most of their people. I have family in a few parts of Canada.

Stop talking about Batmans tool!

[Frankiarmz]

Oh come on. Batman has a cooler car and more tools. :)

On a more serious note, there are few countries that share as many values with the United States as Canada does.

Point taken, so why doesn't the US drop some bombs and thin the herd? Eliminate iran, china, india and france. France would have to go first. Batman can have all the cool gadgets he wants, but Superman only needs his super powers to kick butt.

[Service Guy]

Don't know about superman and batman, but I am pretty sure Obama would kick Mccain's butt in a fistfight. Isn't Mccain like 150 or something?:killingme:

[Masterplumb]

Don't know about superman and batman, but I am pretty sure Obama would kick Mccain's butt in a fistfight. Isn't Mccain like 150 or something?:killingme:

You are treading on age discrimination you bigot:groucho:

[Service Guy]

I just hate whitey.:shocked2:

[Frankiarmz]

Don't know about superman and batman, but I am pretty sure Obama would kick Mccain's butt in a fistfight. Isn't Mccain like 150 or something?:killingme:

First of all you have to pick either Batman or Superman? Obama may be younger but I'd bet McCain could still do some serious damage. You are talking about a real military man compared to a civilian, no contest.

[Service Guy]

Well we made it 12 pages before turning into an all-out ridiculous smear-campaign laughfest. Its kind of a good thing though, nothing better than laughter to ease some political tension...:lol: :dance:

[Frankiarmz]

Well we made it 12 pages before turning into an all-out ridiculous smear-campaign laughfest. Its kind of a good thing though, nothing better than laughter to ease some political tension...:lol: :dance:

I was serious about the bombs and France. I'm also seriously tired. Good night all and God Bless.

[JCsPlumbing]

Spiderman.:rolleyes:

J.C.

[DuckButter]

Watch it tough guy, Eastchester is a short trip from Norwalk, CT! You're just lucky my hands hurt from chopping wood to heat my house next winter. That and the fact that I'm low on gas.
:killingme::killingme:

[Rafael]

I know an 80 year old who could kick the butt of nearly every member of this forum....2 at a time.
Age means nothing when it comes to fighting.
BTW, Chuck Norris is 68, anyone want to take their chances with that granpa?

[ToUtahNow]

How about Jack LaLane?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_LaLanne

1984 (age 70): Once again handcuffed and shackled, Jack fought strong winds and currents as he swam 1.5 miles while towing 70 boats with 70 people from the Queen's Way Bridge (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Queen%27s_Way_Bridge&action=edit&redlink=1) in the Long Beach Harbor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Beach_Harbor) to the Queen Mary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMS_Queen_Mary).

He probably could still kick some butt today and he is in his 90s.

Mark

[Frankiarmz]

How about Jack LaLane?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_LaLanne

1984 (age 70): Once again handcuffed and shackled, Jack fought strong winds and currents as he swam 1.5 miles while towing 70 boats with 70 people from the Queen's Way Bridge (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Queen%27s_Way_Bridge&action=edit&redlink=1) in the Long Beach Harbor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Beach_Harbor) to the Queen Mary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMS_Queen_Mary).

He probably could still kick some butt today and he is in his 90s.

Mark

Jack dedicated his life to the pursuit of strength and health many, many years ago. Remember his tv show from the early sixties? How many people you know can do one arm pullups? Aside from lifting weights and countless callisthenics, Jack was also innovative with his diet he once went to a slaughter house to drink fresh cows blood in the hopes of gaining strength and adding muscle unfortunately he said the blood coagulated into clots which were too much for even him!

[ToUtahNow]

Growing up as a kid in the San Fernando Valley I remember the Jack LaLanne Fitness Centers. He was slightly ahead of his time but he sure left an impression. I understand you can still hire him for public speaking.

Mark

[ridgidpipe]

It really doesnt matter who is actually elected in november as the lobbiest are currently running our country. they get in everyones pockets so much that an honest politician would never have the money to even get to the primaries in the first place

[罗睦森]

Hope :icon_bike:Obama change policy to the CCP,topple down Hu Jintao.

[ToUtahNow]

Under Pelosi and Reed the Congress is now at a dismal new record low approval rating of 9%. My question is who are the dopes that make up the 9% which approve of the job Congress is doing?

Mark