Antique 1 hp wagner motor wiring question.

[archangel]

I pulled the cover and there are 4 wires, but they are all black, and they all have a small aluminum band wrapped around and crimped to them numbered #1,#2,#3, and #4.

The two that were wired to the 2 wire 120V power cord were #1 and #4.

The #2 and #3 were wired (in a rather sloppy way) together under the cover.

My MIG welder and powder coating oven both use 240V so I want to wire the "NEW" drill press for 240V as well.

What I need to know is which wires go to the two (out of phase) 120V power, the neutral, and ground?

I'm used to the red and black both going to either of the two phases of 120V, the white goes to neutral and the green is Ground.

The tag has this info and the underlined parts are the blank area that was stamped.

411----Wagner Electric Corp----401
Alternating Current Motor type RA
Frame 203 MOD C65---M---181
1HP 1750 RPM Phase 60 cycles
110V 13.2amps----220V 6.6amps
Cont. rating 40 C NO 2A
Code G SK Protector 27E

How do I test the motors wires to find what color they connect to from the wall?

If I had to tear it apart to inspect it, how would I tell which wires the two power wires go to, and which wires I hook up the remaining wires too?

[wbrooks]

With the given current draw each winding will measure 16.7 ohms. Measure pairs or wires for 16.7 ohms. Connect the windings in parallel to run at 110V and in series for 220V. You know that 1 & 4 are from separate windings and with 2&3 tied together the windings must be in series and therefore wired for 220V, you can verify this by measuring the resistance across 1&4, if it is 33.3 ohms then the windings are connected in series. The windings will measure 8.3 ohms when connected in parallel

[drsparky]

L1+1+3 L2+2+4 no neutral green to ground, however why change? You will need to put the drill press 15 Amp two pole breaker.

Chuck

[archangel]

L1+1+3 L2+2+4 no neutral green to ground, however why change? You will need to put the drill press 15 Amp two pole breaker.

Chuck

I already have a 220V 40 amp breaker set up.


With the given current draw each winding will measure 16.7 ohms. Measure pairs or wires for 16.7 ohms. Connect the windings in parallel to run at 110V and in series for V. You know that 1 & 4 are from separate windings and with 2&3 tied together the windings must be in series and therefore wired for 220V, you can verify this by measuring the resistance across 1&4, if it is 33.3 ohms then the windings are connected in series. The windings will measure 8.3 ohms when connected in parallel

Without seeing a wire diagram, I am lost.

So If #1 and #4 going to 110V and #2 and #3 connected to each other is set up parallel and will run on 110V.

So, to run them in series, do I just hook up #1 to one phase of 110V and #4 to another phase of 110V and leave the other two connected?

Or do I hook #1 to 110V and #2 (or #3) to the other 110V and connect the remaining two and connecting the grounding wire to the case?

I get the feeling I just might have to connect wires at random until I get 33.3 ohms?

I understand wiring series and parallel in the wiring of 2 12V batteries wired in series (pos of one connected to the neg of the other) to get 24 volts, or wire them in parallel (Both pos connected and both neg connected) keeping them at 12 Volts and doubling the amps like my F250 Diesel truck.

Is there somewhere on the web I can view what you are talking about as far as motors are concerned?

I guess that this is AC, it does not have a pos and neg, so if #1 and #4 are one circuit, and #2 and #3 are the other and I can hook either #2 or #3 to either #1 or #4 and connect the remaining wires?

I have 2 sources of 110V that are out of phase with each other, a neutral wire, and a ground.

[Woussko]

Rather than going to loads of trouble please try this and report back what happens.

Connect wires #2 and 3 together with a wire nut and tape them.

Connect wire #1 to the black hot wire from a simple power cord and connect wire #4 to white neutral from the power cord.

Connect the green grounding wire from the power cord to the motor frame.

Now plug in the power cord into a 120 Volt receptacle on a private circuit. The motor should startup and run. If it sits there with some growling and is sluggish to start but does, that would mean it's wired for 240 Volts as you want. If it does nothing or just goes GRRRR pull the plug fast.

Please report back what you found out.

With wires 2 & 3 connected, the windings should be in series and power would be applied to wires 1 & 4. This is just assuming things are as they should be. Without an actual wiring diagram for your motor I'm sort of taking a good guess as to how it was wired up at the factory.

A 120/240 Volt single phase generator normally has 4 wires. You can connect them for just 120 Volts (windings in parallel), for just 240 Volts (in series) or for 120/240 Volts (series with center tap). I'm assuming your motor is setup in the same manor.

Note: Before trying to run the motor, be sure to vacuum clean out dust and dirt through the vent holes. Suck out dust rather than blowing it. Use a crevice tool and your shop vac. Then put about 1/2 of an eye dopper of #10 or #20 non detergent motor oil into each end bearing cup. Next try to manually spin the motor in each direction to make sure nothing is scraping or binding. Brush noise is normal for this kind of motor. That would be sort of a swishing sound.

[archangel]

Rather than going to loads of trouble please try this and report back what happens.

Connect wires #2 and 3 together with a wire nut and tape them.

Connect wire #1 to the black hot wire from a simple power cord and connect wire #4 to white neutral from the power cord.

Connect the green grounding wire from the power cord to the motor frame.

Now plug in the power cord into a 120 Volt receptacle on a private circuit. The motor should startup and run. If it sits there with some growling and is sluggish to start but does, that would mean it's wired for 240 Volts as you want. If it does nothing or just goes GRRRR pull the plug fast.

Please report back what you found out.

With wires 2 & 3 connected, the windings should be in series and power would be applied to wires 1 & 4. This is just assuming things are as they should be. Without an actual wiring diagram for your motor I'm sort of taking a good guess as to how it was wired up at the factory.

A 120/240 Volt single phase generator normally has 4 wires. You can connect them for just 120 Volts (windings in parallel), for just 240 Volts (in series) or for 120/240 Volts (series with center tap). I'm assuming your motor is setup in the same manor.

Note: Before trying to run the motor, be sure to vacuum clean out dust and dirt through the vent holes. Suck out dust rather than blowing it. Use a crevice tool and your shop vac. Then put about 1/2 of an eye dopper of #10 or #20 non detergent motor oil into each end bearing cup. Next try to manually spin the motor in each direction to make sure nothing is scraping or binding. Brush noise is normal for this kind of motor. That would be sort of a swishing sound.

When I first got it wires #2 and 3 were together with insulation/friction tape on them.

Wire #1 and #4 were connected to a simple 2 pronged power cord.

It ran slow but ok with no humming.


With an old motor and running AC, does it matter as far as POS and NEG?

[Woussko]

With an old motor and running AC, does it matter as far as POS and NEG?

Nope as you are running it on alternating current. If I read correctly the motor did start and run but was slow building up speed. Is this correct? If yes and it ran quietly, then most likely it actually is wired up for 240 Volts and you're good to go. Even more modern induction motors will run at 1/2 Voltage under no load, make little RRRRRR noise and are sluggish starting up.

The old Wagner motors running on normal Voltage will growl some and especially under load. At reduced Voltage (on 120 and wired for 240) they will startup slowly, run with little growl and are pretty easy to bog down when put under a load.

One thing you'll notice is that (I'm pretty sure your's is this way) a repulsion start / induction run motor isn't as snappy as a capacitor start motor, but they also don't draw near as high a starting current coming up to speed. They were more complicated inside and today would be rather costly to make. If cared for one should last a very loooooong time.

Part 2: I think you're now ready to try the motor on 240 Volts AC. You would leave 2 + 3 connected. Be sure they are connected with a good wire nut and also taped. Connect #1 to the black (line 1) and #4 to the red (line 2) wires. You may want to get an electrician to help with this if you have doubts. It's best to think safety rather than doing it DIY and having a big mess or getting hurt.

You'll want to run 12-3 (with ground) from the breaker panel to the motor and leave the white neutral not connected. You can use 12-2 and put red tape on the white wire as it will be Line 2 and hot. This is where it's wise to have an electrician help you. As for the proper circuit breaker, you can use a 2 pole 15 or 20 Amp breaker. You sure don't need a higher rated one for this load. I prefer the extra protection of the 2 pole 15 Amp breaker myself. You would do well to also install a fused, enclosed safety switch and add Fusetron fuses rated at about 1-1/4 times the running current (at 240 Volts) of the motor. This way you can be totally sure it is disconnected by opening the switch. As a minimum install a short power cord with proper plug (NEMA 6-15 or 6-20) and a receptacle near the machine. You really must have a good way to disconnect power for servicing and in case things go all wrong there.

[wbrooks]

Just find a VOM, ask neighbours if you don't have one. Do you have 33.3 ohm between 1&4? If yes connect it to 240V and you are done

[Woussko]

Just try it on 120 Volts. If it is slow to startup and come up to speed (takes 5 seconds or longer) but it does run, then it has to be wired up for 240 Volts as it is right now. If on the other hand it starts up snappy and comes to full speed in less than 3 seconds, then I would not want to try it on 240 Volts as is.

Count out 1, 2, 3, 4, 5

Is the motor still building up speed? Is it very quiet once it is maxed out?

If yes to both, then it's got to be wired up for 240 Volts providing you test it on 120 Volts AC 60 Hertz power.

[archangel]

Just find a VOM, ask neighbours if you don't have one. Do you have 33.3 ohm between 1&4? If yes connect it to 240V and you are done


OK, I found the box where I packed the D.V.O.M. and did some testing on the wires coming out of the motor.

My D.V.O.M reads straight Ohms, 2, 20, and 200

All readings ended up on the 200 scale

Wires 1+2=0 but if I also wire nut 3+4 together I get 2.2

Wires 1+3= 1.4 so this should be one circuit.

Wires 1+4=0 but if I also wire nut 2+3 together I get 2.0 and was how it was hooked up running 110V.

Wires 2+3=0 but if I also wire nut 1+4 together I get 3.8

Wires 2+4= 1.4 and this should be the other circuit.

Wires 3+4=0 but if I also wire nut 1+2 together I get 4.0


So I guess 3.8 would actually be 38 Ohms and closest to the 33.3 suggested?
That would be the reverse of the 110V that was running on the set up reading 2.0.

[QROKING]

HEY HEY...hold on here. The man says that wires 2 and 3 are nutted together and power comes in on 1 and 4, but he claims it is connected to 120v. I am sorry to say that if 1 and 3 are connected and power comes in on 1 and 4, then the motor is wired for 240v and not 120v. It should be connected to 240v if the motor is wired that way. For the motor to be on 120v it would be wired with 1 and 3 connected and 2 and 4 connected and the power of the 120v coming in one on each connection. The motor could very well run on 120v but it would probably run slow and have little power, but it could very well turn. I think this is your problem. Lou

[Woussko]

QROKING

I think his motor is already setup for 240 Volt operation. I want him to run it on 120 Volts to be safe and if it's slow starting up and coming to speed and runs very quiet, then I'm about 99% sure it really is setup for 240 Volts.

Some time ago I had an old 1-1/2 HP Wagner motor much like his. It would startup and run on 120 Volts when wired (had diagram) for 240 Volts but it sure was sluggish and had very little power or stall torque. On 240 it would start up quick and had all kinds of power and stall torque being they were underrated with a huge service factor. What they don't have it lots of starting torque even on the proper Voltage but then a repulsion start - induction run motor doesn't draw all that much starting current relative to the running current.

Your correct in that it would make sense that with 2 & 3 connected and power applied to 1 & 4 that the windings are in series now. This is how a 4 wire dual Voltage single phase generator would be connected. Black to 1, Red to 4 and white to the junction of 2 & 3. (For a generator and not a motor)

[archangel]

HEY HEY...hold on here. The man says that wires 2 and 3 are nutted together and power comes in on 1 and 4, but he claims it is connected to 120v. I am sorry to say that if 1 and 3 are connected and power comes in on 1 and 4, then the motor is wired for 240v and not 120v. It should be connected to 240v if the motor is wired that way. For the motor to be on 120v it would be wired with 1 and 3 connected and 2 and 4 connected and the power of the 120v coming in one on each connection. The motor could very well run on 120v but it would probably run slow and have little power, but it could very well turn. I think this is your problem. Lou

OK, is house hold voltage 110V, 115V or 120V.
And is it 220V, 230V or 240V?

I find reference to them all and I'm wondering what to use.

The only problem I had was being sure if it was set up for 240, so it was set up for it already?

It started and ran real easy so it seemed ok if slow.

[Woussko]

Anything in the range of 105-130 is called 110, 115, 120 and it's all the same. Years ago the electric companies aimed at a bit lower Voltage than today. 210-260 can be called 220, 230, 240. If I remember correctly the nominal Voltages are 117 and 234. Today most people refer to 120 and 240 on a single phase system. As long as you're within a reasonable range things should be OK. Where you need to worry is with electronics and getting the actual and design Voltages matched within about + or - 5%. Your old motor should run fine on 100-130 and 200-260 Volts.

Well designed machinery normally can take +5% down to -10% of the name plate Voltage without problem. The old overbuilt motors could take a wider range than today's motors made for the $$$ factor.

In your home you will normally have what's called 120 / 240 Volt single phase power. From either black or red to white you will get close to 1/2 Voltage and from black to red you get full Voltage. It can be somewhat lower or higher than what it's called. In my home I measured with a high quality certified AC Volt meter 124 + 123 Volts under little load. This means the transformer and my loads aren't perfect, but it's no big deal. Under heavy loading the measured Voltage comes to about 119 + 119. This would be 238 measured across black & red. Under no load it would be 247 Volts. By the way I really have to work to reach full rated load here.

Out in the country, the Voltage will swing more from no load to heavy load and on average will be lower than in the city. People right near a substation transformer have high Voltage to deal with. In some cases they will use a bucking transformer or automatic power conditioner. This is mostly for electronics. Don't let this stuff worry you there.

[Woussko]

Hint: If you were to use a VOM type meter such as a Simpson 260 it would have a 0 - 250 Volts AC range. Being it's rated accuracy is 3% of full scale that means it can be off by as much as 7.5 Volts either plus or minus and be within specs. That would be to say if you really had 120 Volts exactly the meter could read from 112.5 to 127.5 and if you had exactly 240 it could read from 232.5 to 247.5 and be in spec. With a 0 - 300 Volt AC panel meter of the iron vane type and a good quality one it would normally be within 2% of full scale or 6.0 Volts.

All I'm really getting at is if you measure Voltage and it's within say 10% of expected, don't worry much about it. Most items will be fine.

Time for me to hush up now. :o

[wbrooks]

I just pulled a part a similar motor to yours and measured mine. The windings are 1&2, 3&4 each winding measures around 2 ohms due to capacitors in the picture, we are not actually measuring the individual windings at the electrical connection box. Your motor is definitely wired for 220V operation.

120 operation as suggested L1 is connected to 1&3, L2 is connected to 2&4

240 V operation L1 is connected to 1, L2 is connected to 4, 2&3 are bonded together

[archangel]

120 operation as suggested L1 is connected to 1&3, L2 is connected to 2&4



So, to properly hook it up to 120V, #1 and #4 get the same phase of 120V and #2 and $3 get the neutral?
I guess this is the parallel set up where power goes through both sides, side by side?

What is L1 and L2?
L1 is 120V
and
L2 is neutral?



240 V operation L1 is connected to 1, L2 is connected to 4, 2&3 are bonded together

So 120V power goes in from one circuit #1, and another phase of 120V goes in the other circuit #4 and then #2 is connected to #3 instead of neutral?

Now
What is L1 and L2 for 240V?

L1 is 120V of one phase
and
L2 is 120V of another phase?

If this is right, I think got it!

[wbrooks]

You got it

[bluecon]

So, to properly hook it up to 120V, #1 and #4 get the same phase of 120V and #2 and $3 get the neutral?
I guess this is the parallel set up where power goes through both sides, side by side?

What is L1 and L2?
L1 is 120V
and
L2 is neutral?


If this is right, I think got it!
Wait a minute. 1 and 3 connect to 120v and 2 and 4 connect to the neutral for 120v operation.

[archangel]

Wait a minute. 1 and 3 connect to 120v and 2 and 4 connect to the neutral for 120v operation.

If #1 and #3 are on the same circuit, then hooking them both to 120 will do nothing.

My test results are below again, and I do believe #1 and #3 are one circuit and #2 and #4 are the other circuit.

Wires 1+2=0 but if I also wire nut 3+4 together I get 2.2

Wires 1+3= 1.4 so this should be one circuit.

Wires 1+4=0 but if I also wire nut 2+3 together I get 2.0 and was how it was hooked up running 110V.

Wires 2+3=0 but if I also wire nut 1+4 together I get 3.8

Wires 2+4= 1.4 and this should be the other circuit.

Wires 3+4=0 but if I also wire nut 1+2 together I get 4.0

[wbrooks]

Are you really measuring 0 ohms as in short circuit, or is it OL (open loop) as in infinite resistance.

[archangel]

Another thought, or question.
#1 and #3 are one circuit.
#2 and #4 are the other circuit.

When going with 120V, does it matter if I hook #1 and #2 to the black and #3 and #4 to the white or swap them the other way?

What about 240V?

Can I hook it black to #1 then red to #2 and wiring #3 and #4 together?
And what if----
Can I hook it black to #1 then red to #4 and wiring #3 and #2 together?


The reason I ask is that when wiring a wind powered 3 phase generator, there is a difference between the inner portion of the windings and the outer windings in the way it is wired to produce power because the phases need to be synchronized and I guess somewhat directional.

Something like ==== push pull, push pull, push pull, ==== and not in a ==== push pull, pull push, push pull ==== sort of way?

Because A/C just goes back and forth at the receiving end, does it matter which end of the winding is hooked to black or neutral?

Is there a forward and backward like with D/C power?:scratchhead:

[Dummyload]

Note that you will not get correct Ohm readings by calculating from the specified AC voltage and current. Your meter reads the DC resistance of the windings, which is way lower than the AC impedance @ 60Hz when the motor is running normally.

[Dummyload]

Is there a forward and backward like with D/C power?No and yes.

Although the motor will work the same if you invert the L1-L2 or Lx-N wire set, the polarity of the windings must match whether you wire them in series or parallel.

If you wire the two windings with opposite polarity, they will cancel out each other's magnetic flux in the stator. The motor will not work, and this will also draw excess current which the winding filament is not designed to carry continuously.

[Dummyload]

As far as it goes with wiring the generator... the 3 output phases are phased 120 degrees off each other. Whether you wire it in Wye (star) or Delta (triangle) you will need to match the right winding directions.

Let's assume that one lead of each winding goes to the "bottom" or connects to the first convolution, and one comes out the "top" or connects with the last convolution.

Wye is somewhat a parallel wiring, you would join the "bottom" leads to make a Neutral point, and the "top" leads as different phase outputs. Or vice versa, the polarity doesn't count as far as the winding directions are equal.

Delta is somewhat a serial wiring. You would join each "bottom" lead to the next "top" lead consecutively. While that would make a short circuit on DC (like car batteries), this is an AC generator and the phases are phased off each other, thus they will not be sporting three synchronously phased voltages at any angle of the rotor.

[Woussko]

wbrooks & others

With motor windings you'll read a much lower DC resistance than their impedance at 60 Hertz AC. With this in mind you need a good VOM with a R x 1 range and a 12 Ohm center scale like a Simpson 260 has. A Triplett 630 would work well too. A more simple VOM isn't going to show the difference of 2, 5 and 10 Ohms. A Digital Multimeter normally isn't much good for this either.

This is starting to get totally crazy. Connect the black line 1 wire to motor lead #1. Connect the red line 2 wire to motor lead #4. Connect motor leads 2 & 3 together. WALLA you are ready to run it on 240 Volts AC. Wagner kept things simple for people wiring up this motor. Do be sure to connect up a grounding wire to the motor case/frame.