Leak location

[SlimTim]

Just thought I would relate how I found this leak and maybe get some pointers on leak location in the process.

Customer called, had water leaking onto his driveway.(see photo). This is an old photo that I had of the house so, no water in picture. I started at the left end of the brick wall and covered the driveway to the right about 10 ft and away from the house about 10 ft. The yard abutts the driveway starting at the left edge of the 1st step in the photo and going all the way to the street (about 80 ft.)
There water was not moving, it had just soaked that area of the drive.
Water would ooze through the cracks in the drive near this area when you walked on it.
If you were to stand in the middle of the front step in the photo and look towards the street you would see the water meter directly in front of you about 80 ft away.
He has an irrigation system with 6 underground solenoids located about 20 ft from the left corner of this picture.
He just had all of his gutters replaced. A new 4" drain line of black corrugated pipe ended at the drive next to the left end of the brick wall.(this photo was taken pre-drain)
There was no water coming out of the drain.
The main water service is pvc.
1. I checked the water meter for movement. Yup. About 2.5 gallons every 5 min.
2. I checked the irrigation valve boxes. No water in them.
3. I turned off the r.p.device for the irrigation system. Didn't stop the movement.
4. I turned off the in house cut-offs (two of them). Didn't stop the movement.

So, the leak is on the main water service. I use my "magic" plumber wires to guess which way the pipe may go. (you know, two bent wires that cross when walking over the pipe). Sometimes you gotta start somewhere.

5. I have a Gen-ear listener and deployed it. No luck (I usually don't have much luck with that thing)
6. I start introducing 2000 lbs of helium into the #2 test cock of the rp device (#1 cock on the side of the ball valve is missing.)
7 I walk and listen.

The helium goes in slowly but soon speeds up, indicating it has found the hole in the pipe.
I walk and listen....nothing. I think....OOPS!! I run to the water meter and sure enough, the meter is moving backwards at a fast clip. The helium is going back into the city. (Someone downstream is going to get a surprise!)
I turn off the meter. I'm down to 500 lbs of helium in the tank. It's still going in slowly. I walk and listen.

Finally, bingo, I hear "blub, blub, blub," near the curve in that left brick wall. I dig down there and bubbles and water are escaping all in the hole--from under the slab of that first landing.
I plug in the gen-ear and pinpoint the sound just about in the middle of that first landing.
I had a stone mason out today to cut a couple of the stone up. We started breaking the slab underneath and it's at leat 8 inches. Our electric Bosch "brute" won't handle it. I have an air compressor and jack hammer being delivered tomorrow. More pics then.
Whew! Sorry for all the typos.
Any suggestions on how I could have facilitated this hunt?

[ToUtahNow]

Be careful with those meters as they are not made for that much pressure. We use to carry nitrogen on the truck to pressurize the tough leaks. Another suggestion is to use a long 5/16" masonry bit in the mortar joints before you pull the bricks. Usually you can drill a few holes and narrow down the area quite fast.

Mark

[Service Guy]

Cool idea with the helium.

[SlimTim]

Be careful with those meters as they are not made for that much pressure. We use to carry nitrogen on the truck to pressurize the tough leaks. Another suggestion is to use a long 5/16" masonry bit in the mortar joints before you pull the bricks. Usually you can drill a few holes and narrow down the area quite fast.

Mark


My helium outlet pressure was only about 95 lbs. The street water pressure in that area usually runs 80 to 100 lbs!

[PLUMBER RICK]

slimtim, the first procedure in leak locating is establishing the path of the pipe. we know the leak will be on this path. this is the area we need to be directing our leak locater to.

throw out your wires and buy a pipe locater.

why helium? it's expensive and is a gas that will show up with a helium sniffer. you don't own that sniffer, why use helium. helium is great for minute leaks.

i either use an air tank/ compressor, or co2. but first i will trace the line and narrow down the search path.

rick.

[SlimTim]

slimtim, the first procedure in leak locating is establishing the path of the pipe. we know the leak will be on this path. this is the area we need to be directing our leak locater to.

throw out your wires and buy a pipe locater.

why helium? it's expensive and is a gas that will show up with a helium sniffer. you don't own that sniffer, why use helium. helium is great for minute leaks.

i either use an air tank/ compressor, or co2. but first i will trace the line and narrow down the search path.

rick.


What model locater will locate pvc pipe?

[Nevada plumber]

SlimTim, I also have a Gen-Ear leak detector. I find the thing is next to useless on finding leaks in PVC water lines. If you don't have a good idea of how the lines run, you can't do much with the Gen-Ear.

Rick, how would a pipe locater help with PVC water lines? My understanding of the equipment is they transmit a signal down a metal pipe, and you locate the signal, telling you where the pipe is. Is there something I have been missing about them?

[PLUMBER RICK]

What model locater will locate pvc pipe?

i missed the pvc sentence:eek:

there are units that will pulse water/ thump to allow for listening and tracing the main. typically you will need to connect this inline with the water main.

any chance of disconnecting the main at the meter and pushing in a fishtape or copper wire. hopefully it's a straight run?

rick.

[ToUtahNow]

Unless you own a pulse-generator the way to go is to pressurize the line and use your leak locator. I prefer the metro-tech locators to the Gen-Ear put they cost a lot more.

Mark

[SlimTim]

i missed the pvc sentence:eek:

there are units that will pulse water/ thump to allow for listening and tracing the main. typically you will need to connect this inline with the water main.

any chance of disconnecting the main at the meter and pushing in a fishtape or copper wire. hopefully it's a straight run?

rick.

Maybe your meters in CA are easy to get to and disconnect and reconnect-not here. They're a pain. It was probably 100' to the first turn-maybe my flat sewer tape would fit :p yuk. I would rather spot dig. I think I'll pick the wires back up that I threw out at your recommendation.

But seriously, thanks for the info on the co2. I'll check into that. The tank is easier to haul around than an air compressor.

[SlimTim]

Unless you own a pulse-generator the way to go is to pressurize the line and use your leak locator. I prefer the metro-tech locators to the Gen-Ear put they cost a lot more.

Mark


If they cost more than the Gen-Ear then they are WAY too much.

[ToUtahNow]

If they cost more than the Gen-Ear then they are WAY too much.


My set up is just shy of $5,000 but it is computerized and has 10 adjustable filters plus stores the previous 10-readings. While I have never tried it it is suppose to find a drip at 15' deep. I did have a slab leak in Las Vegas which was 4' deep and never leaked above the slab but you could clock the meter to document a small leak and the owner could tell the floor was slightly warmer in an area. When I found the leak it was barely more than a drip but I was dead on. The locator is really over-kill for the average plumber and I would not recommend it but for what I do it is perfect.

Mark

[saysflushable]

The locator is really over-kill for the average plumber and I would not recommend it but for what I do it is perfect.

Mark[/quote]

I don't know Mark, if you say it works that good I bet it would be worth it for a plumber. We have few houses on slab and I turn water main work over to friends of mine with the equipment. So for me not so much but I've seen a lot of big holes get dug because nobody could find the leak. places on a slab would be awesome to know exactly ware to bust concrete. I didn't know they made something so accurate.

[PLUMBER RICK]

I didn't know they made something so accurate.

accuracy is only as good as the person who is using it.

i've seen real big holes dug for sewer repairs that were located by a navitract.

it wasn't the navitract that was off, it was the user:eek:

rick.

[ToUtahNow]

I don't know Mark, if you say it works that good I bet it would be worth it for a plumber. We have few houses on slab and I turn water main work over to friends of mine with the equipment. So for me not so much but I've seen a lot of big holes get dug because nobody could find the leak. places on a slab would be awesome to know exactly ware to bust concrete. I didn't know they made something so accurate.

I guess what I was trying to say was I can generally limit my break out in a slab home to 12" X 12" using a $1,000 Goldak with the upgraded mic ( ;);) ). So while the $5,000 locator makes me look smarter I am really using it for other things.

Mark

BTW: Rick is likely the only one who understands the ;);)

[JCsPlumbing]

If it's a leak under the concrete. I'd bore a new line under the drive and tap it on both sides. No concrete demo, repair, or matching.

Sometimes I have pinpointed leaks pretty well (just visual-no equipment) sometimes it's a needle in a haystack. Dig where the water is nothing. :rolleyes: Chase it & chase it.

Hope it goes well.

On another note, I try REAL hard to avoid putting lines under concrete. Even called cities to try and pinpoint the meter.

J.C.

[SlimTim]

why helium? it's expensive and is a gas that will show up with a helium sniffer. you don't own that sniffer, why use helium. helium is great for minute leaks.

i either use an air tank/ compressor, or co2. but first i will trace the line and narrow down the search path.

rick.

I use helium because it is much lighter than air and will quickly rise to the surface for audible detection. It's what the leak detection companies use.
Compressed air is good to increase the pressure of the water coming out of the hole and thus increase the vibration of the pipe for the microphone type detection. 2000lbs of helium cost me $55.00. I usually use half that for detection (not on this one though).

[gear junkie]

2000lbs of helium cost me $55.00. I usually use half that for detection (not on this one though).
How big is the tank? I get a 40 cu ft tank of nitrogen for 16.

[JCsPlumbing]

Posted yesterday, right? Is it repaired yet? if not what's your plan of attack?

J.C.

[SlimTim]

Ouch! Not there yet. We blasted a big hole in the front landing and it was dry. The slab under the blue stone was 12" thick. We are close though. Just ran out of time and energy today. I'm having to put lots of other work off to get this accomplished.
I'll post progress photos when completed.

I'm not sure what size tank that is I have. But again, the last balloon I filled with nitrogen just sat there.:rolleyes:

[boillerman]

But the air compressor has so many other uses. Winterizing, blowing out W/H's when there's no floor drain, pumping well tanks, the list goes on and on my friend.

[SlimTim]

All right, the leak was found, repaired and soon to be just a bad memory.
Here are a few pics. I will post more of the actual leak later.
The guys using the jack hammer and concrete saw are from other companies that I hired for the task. Notice, no eye or ear protection and no dust masks. But, I wouldn't worry about it. The pack and a half of cigarettes they smoked will probably get 'em first. (I had supplied all of the above for them to use but they refused!!!)
Yup, that's me in the hole. No comments about the crocs please.
I had been doing minor adjustments and repairs on irrigation systems all day. I had no intentions of standing on my head in that hole.

[JCsPlumbing]

:bravo:PIA. Glad you got it under control. And thanks for the update. Alot of people forget to leave the money on the nightstand.

J.C.

[PLUMBER RICK]

do all of you guys in tenn. wear open toe sandals to work:D

http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3677&d=1215576176 (http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3677&d=1215576176)

that's a whole lot of work just to change a kitchen sink cartridge:D

rick.

[MrsSeatDown]

Don't worry-they thought about safety. Their toes will be fine, because they dove in head first instead of just jumping in the ditch:D

[JCsPlumbing]

I didn't even notice the guy on the left in his !#$%! Huraches! What the heck is going on in my little construction world?!

Mexican Sandals, Crocs, and Keebler Elves shoes out in Cali.

I gotta get that clinic going to tape up some toes. :)

J.C.

[MrsSeatDown]

I didn't even notice the guy on the left in his !#$%! Huraches! What the heck is going on in my little construction world?!

Mexican Sandals, Crocs, and Keebler Elves shoes out in Cali.

I gotta get that clinic going to tape up some toes. :)

J.C.

Can't take the blame this time. He is from Tennessee, where the river birch grow:dance:

[bacskcah]

I'm new to this forum so maybe I'm confused, but what the hell is going on in this thread. Workers in bare feet hacking the front landing of what looks like a very expensive house over the course of a week or so to REPAIR PVC????!!! Maybe I'm missing something but wouldn't it be easier to line bore a new pex service? A fast permanent solution or a laborious ugly repair. I would hate to go back to that job a few years later when the next part of the pvc cracks.:confused:

[SlimTim]

Can't take the blame this time. He is from Tennessee, where the river birch grow:dance:

OUCH! Ouch, ouch, ouch...AGAIN!

[SlimTim]

I didn't even notice the guy on the left in his !#$%! Huraches! What the heck is going on in my little construction world?!

Mexican Sandals, Crocs, and Keebler Elves shoes out in Cali.

I gotta get that clinic going to tape up some toes. :)

J.C.


The guy on the left in the sandals is my son. He just had some work done on his big toe at the doctor and couldn't where closed front shoes.
I have no excuse except I spend most days in the summer traipsing(sp?) through wet grass working on minor irrigation repairs. Anything serious and I put on my boots. I HATE wet socks. (Please see thread "What's your favorite footwear" for more important info!)

[SlimTim]

I'm new to this forum so maybe I'm confused, but what the hell is going on in this thread. Workers in bare feet hacking the front landing of what looks like a very expensive house over the course of a week or so to REPAIR PVC????!!! Maybe I'm missing something but wouldn't it be easier to line bore a new pex service? A fast permanent solution or a laborious ugly repair. I would hate to go back to that job a few years later when the next part of the pvc cracks.:confused:


Well, I sure I would've done SOME things differently looking back but line boring couldn't have been one of them.
8-10 years ago when this house was built, the irrigation contractor didn't put a cut off at his tie in on the main water service. We don't even know where the tie in is. The r.p. device is not very far from where this leak is.
The are two main cut-offs in the house and one off them was directly in line with this leak.
So, not knowing where any of the branches were we risked bypassing them only to have them leak from the backside. (you know, it's alot easier to explain things face to face than typing!)

As it turned out, the leak is on the main line, about 1 foot from the tee where it branches to feed either side of the house. And it all is right under that brick wall/blue stone landing. We still don't know where the irrigation is tied in.
Hope that helps.

P.s. later pics will show how the installer used too much glue which deformed the fitting, possibly leading to the crack that was the leak.

p.s.s. Of course, when they ran this line, they had no idea this brick wall etc would be put there.

[saysflushable]

Well, I sure I would've done SOME things differently looking back but line boring couldn't have been one of them.
8-10 years ago when this house was built, the irrigation contractor didn't put a cut off at his tie in on the main water service. We don't even know where the tie in is. The r.p. device is not very far from where this leak is.
The are two main cut-offs in the house and one off them was directly in line with this leak.
So, not knowing where any of the branches were we risked bypassing them only to have them leak from the backside. (you know, it's alot easier to explain things face to face than typing!)

As it turned out, the leak is on the main line, about 1 foot from the tee where it branches to feed either side of the house. And it all is right under that brick wall/blue stone landing. We still don't know where the irrigation is tied in.
Hope that helps.

P.s. later pics will show how the installer used too much glue which deformed the fitting, possibly leading to the crack that was the leak.

p.s.s. Of course, when they ran this line, they had no idea this brick wall etc would be put there.

Boy Howdy It would be nice to live ware the frost is so shallow I could hand dig a water main!!
I bet your happy that job is done:p