McCain for President?

[Frankiarmz]

Looks like I may be voting for John McCain when the time comes. Much as I dislike the idea of remaining in iraq and some of his other policies I find nothing to convince me to vote for Obama. I cannot understand the lack of positive action or at the very least promising words by the democrats towards addressing the oil crisis. I never agreed with drilling in the USA for fear of damaging our beautiful land and coastal areas. I also don't trust that prices will come down without some sort of guarantee by Big Oil, but give McCain credit for suggesting we proceed with local drilling. I am sick and tired of talk without anything to back it up and it appears that John McCain will back it up! Sorry, but for a guy who talks about change I am not seeing it from Obama. :shakehead:

[plumberscrack]

Franki, I gotta say I am blown away :shocked:

After reading your past posts on healthcare, welfare, politics, the economy, the war, politics, gas prices, pay wages, politics, consumer spending, politics...the list goes on ;)

I didn't figure you for a Republican...welcome to the Dark side :wave3:

[Frankiarmz]

Franki, I gotta say I am blown away :shocked:

After reading your past posts on healthcare, welfare, politics, the economy, the war, politics, gas prices, pay wages, politics, consumer spending, politics...the list goes on ;)

I didn't figure you for a Republican...welcome to the Dark side :wave3:

It hurts to hear those words but I'm not left any choice. I'm weighing the lesser of two evils and although I don't expect miracles from McCain he and those guys you mentioned (this is killing me) offer something whereas Obama and the other guys are not. I need to think beyond iraq, taxes, borders, illegals and other important issues and focus on the most important in my life at the moment. I know this sounds selfish and it is but it is a matter of survival. If Obama and the democrats came out with a plan to offset the cost of oil products, implement alternative energies with a time table and resources, something anything I could sink my teeth into it would not push me to vote R.......n. I would imagine even with approval it will take some time before we see results at the pump, but the thought of Americans working towards a positive result are exciting. I also think it will put some fear or second thoughts into the minds of foreign oil producers. We still would benefit from safe nuclear energy if we could get it built? Today I listened to a Republican Congressman talk about plug in and hybrid cars, looks like we old dogs are learning new tricks!

[Service Guy]

Obama going to win anyway.:nyaa-nyaa4::grin:

[Frankiarmz]

Obama going to win anyway.:nyaa-nyaa4::grin:

There is a good chance of that happening, I just don't see him and the democratic Congress accomplishing much aside from chasing their tails. They are against the drilling, okay I can see that but what about Nuclear? What are they offering in the way of a solution? I need more to go on than hype.

[Masterplumb]

Looks like I may be voting for John McCain when the time comes. Much as I dislike the idea of remaining in iraq and some of his other policies I find nothing to convince me to vote for Obama. I cannot understand the lack of positive action or at the very least promising words by the democrats towards addressing the oil crisis. I never agreed with drilling in the USA for fear of damaging our beautiful land and coastal areas. I also don't trust that prices will come down without some sort of guarantee by Big Oil, but give McCain credit for suggesting we proceed with local drilling. I am sick and tired of talk without anything to back it up and it appears that John McCain will back it up! Sorry, but for a guy who talks about change I am not seeing it from Obama. :shakehead:

Thik of it this way Franki. There was talk today in Saudi Arabia that they rounded up some 500 people that were planning to blow up the oil fields. What would that do to the price of oil?

Even if it doesnt cut costs down the road, which I dont agree with, at least if we drill and get oil here we have less of a chance of a terrorist attack against our oil interests.

[Frankiarmz]

Thik of it this way Franki. There was talk today in Saudi Arabia that they rounded up some 500 people that were planning to blow up the oil fields. What would that do to the price of oil?

Even if it doesnt cut costs down the road, which I dont agree with, at least if we drill and get oil here we have less of a chance of a terrorist attack against oil interests.

That's a good point and one I really didn't consider until today. We have got to start moving towards energy independance, drilling , nuclear and the alternatives. Heard a guy has plans to harness the energy from a tornado which he generates, says it could power a small city? I am confident that sitting around talking change without something to back it up will get us nowhere. Watched a News clip the other night where a republican Congressman talked of visiting ANWAR and how it was void of all life, no caribu, nothing. The area of exploration would be compared to a postage stamp on a football field. Still McCain has a long way to go because of the comparissons to President Bush. Wheter or not all these problems can be blamed on the president it does not change the fact that we spent hundreds of billions in iraq and lost thousands of lives, the price of gasoline, diesel, home heating fuel, food and everything else that has gone through the roof does not help either.

[plumberscrack]

Recognizing myself as a Republican was a jagged little pill for me to swallow as well Franki :barf:

Once you taste the Kool Aid you'll find it quite refreshing :grin-devilish:

[Masterplumb]

Recognizing myself as a Republican was a jagged little pill for me to swallow as well Franki :barf:

Once you taste the Kool Aid you'll find it quite refreshing :grin-devilish:

I guess I fall under the Republican umbrella, but I really like to consider mself a conservative. I wish we were strong enough to break away from the Republican party or just make them re-think their stances on spending.

[Frankiarmz]

Recognizing myself as a Republican was a jagged little pill for me to swallow as well Franki :barf:

Once you taste the Kool Aid you'll find it quite refreshing :grin-devilish:

Good post, I enjoyed it. Problem will be if Obama wins and does nothing we slide further downhill and I McCain wins and does not follow through on his promises same story. Next election? I couldn't imagine paying $4.50 for a gallon of gas just a couple of years ago, will I be equally shocked if it reaches $7.00? Going to be a sad, tragic Winter for many regardless and oil is still being traded and climbing!

[DuckButter]

Good post, I enjoyed it. Problem will be if Obama wins and does nothing we slide further downhill and I McCain wins and does not follow through on his promises same story. Next election? I couldn't imagine paying $4.50 for a gallon of gas just a couple of years ago, will I be equally shocked if it reaches $7.00? Going to be a sad, tragic Winter for many regardless and oil is still being traded and climbing!
Heard something in the news today that within 2 years it could be as much as $7.
Oil just breached $140 a barrel today.

[cpw]

Heard something in the news today that within 2 years it could be as much as $7.
Oil just breached $140 a barrel today.
Diesel is $5.75 at some gas stations here. There are more taxes on the road diesel, but still $6 dollar heating oil will probably hit me come January (for the rest of the year I'm at $3.299).

[cpw]

I guess I fall under the Republican umbrella, but I really like to consider mself a conservative. I wish we were strong enough to break away from the Republican party or just make them re-think their stances on spending.
I agree with this whole heartedly. Republicans have been just as bad as Democrats the last 8 years in coming up with new ways to spend our money.

[ora]

I will vote for every will take the least amount of tax dollers from me. It looks like McCain my man. Now lets go get that oil and build some nuc.power plants

[CWSmith]

Interesting, but almost every article I've read seems to point to better tax breaks with Obama, unless you're making $millions; for example:

http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/11/news/economy/candidates_taxproposals_tpc/?postversion=2008061111


CWS

[cpw]

Interesting, but almost every article I've read seems to point to better tax breaks with Obama, unless you're making $millions; for example:

http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/11/news/economy/candidates_taxproposals_tpc/?postversion=2008061111


CWS
The cross-over point in the article is actualy $112,000.

Also, as I understood it, there are negatives in both columns, but if you compare them to 2008 taxes, they would relaly go up under Obama's plan because he wants to get rid of the Bush tax cuts [i.e. these are compared to what your taxes would be without the Bush tax cuts]. So although it looks like McCain would cut taxes by $4300 for a family with $161K in income, really they would just stay the same as now.

[ToUtahNow]

In addition Obama has not said how he will pay for his new programs.

Mark

[Frankiarmz]

In addition Obama has not said how he will pay for his new programs.

Mark

I think if he was able to pull our troops and support from iraq there would be a tremendous savings. If the close to one trillion the USA has already spent in iraq was put to other use right here would it pay for these programs Obama is suggesting or would it just add to our deficits? I think we need to stop spending on everything we can't pay for with the exception of those things that secure our country, safety and security. Get the border secure once and for all! Stop allowing illegals to enter at will. Correct the trade deficit. Suspend trading on oil futures. Do something aside from talking.

[NHMaster3015]

I think if he was able to pull our troops and support from iraq there would be a tremendous savings. If the close to one trillion the USA has already spent in iraq was put to other use right here would it pay for these programs Obama is suggesting or would it just add to our deficits? I think we need to stop spending on everything we can't pay for with the exception of those things that secure our country, safety and security. Get the border secure once and for all! Stop allowing illegals to enter at will. Correct the trade deficit. Suspend trading on oil futures. Do something aside from talking.

Yes, we should pull out of Irac. Cut our losses and run away from that horrible place. We should leave them to fight it out amongst themselves and with any luck, Iran and Syria will step in and give them a hand. Perhaps even Bin Ladin will come out of hiding and have a place to call home again. I feel so bad for him, having to spend the last five years hiding out in caves.

I'll even bet that once Al Queda has a good strong hold there and the extremists get control over the better part of the middle east, the price of oil should come way way down. But we won't care because the trillion dollars that we spent there will surely be put to good use by our congressmen. While we're at it we should also cut military spending by at least 1/2 and de-commission most of the fleet. What a waste of money it is defending freedom. I hav'nt done the math, but if you devide the trillions spent by the number of soldiers killed, you can get the value of an american soldier.

Or can you ?

[AFM]

We followed you to Afghanistan and to Iraq so please tell whoever wins and becomes president in November that we don`t want to go to Iran.

Tony

[NHMaster3015]

That's up to Ahmadimejad. Right now I think the chances are pretty good unless Isreal nukes him first.

[Masterplumb]

If it were up to me, I would blow that monkey Ahmadinijad to pieces. If only I was king.

[DuckButter]

Let's just keep increasing shipments of cigarretts to them...nyuk nyuk nyuk.

[ridgidpipe]

Seems like voting for the lesser of two evils is what this country has sadly become other the last three or so elections.
I am still undecided as to who I am voting for as neither candidate is a true conservative. As far as I am concerned being a consrvative means less goverment intrusion and G W has created the biggest government we have ever had . Sure he is giving tax breaks and at the same time he is creating the biggest deficit our country has ever seen. No wonder our dollar is worth less than the euro.
As far as illegals are concerned neither candidate will do anything about them.
Yes we need to protect our country being ex air force under the Reagon administration I feel we definately had to go into Afganistan after 911. But I am still not sure what is going to be accomplised in Iraq. Now that we are there though we need to finish the job and give our soldiers what they need to do it.
As far as who I am going to vote for I think I will do a write in candidate
****Plumber Rick For President****
Ben best of luck doing your duty
Mark best wishes to your family who is serving
And anyone else on the forum with members in the military ,Best wishes to your loved ones and God speed

[DUNBAR]

I'm hearing some things that are not favorable for McCain as of late, and as a whole it is just a weak platform.

The media isn't on his side at this point, momentum is unheard of on his side of the fence and even though his background is commendable and honorable,


Being against the machine isn't a good spot to be.

Now I'm sure there will be diehards that is going to automatically vote to the right, but remember that the word change sounds good to pratically everybody, whether it is favorable or not.


I'm :sad:as I write this but I'm prepared to bunker down and grin and bear it because there are key indicators pointing to an overwhelming black vote, the media swirl, the lackluster design of the McCain campaign and no matter who he picks as a running mate, I think McCain will be a shadow to whomever he chooses...crazy as that may be.

I wish I had better news folks.....but a few things that are not driven by the media are painting McCain in a corner by even his own doings.


Expect the tire slashing, rampaging the campaign centers, seeking out the vote in prison systems, disputing and demanding recounts. Notice how I never mentioned what side continually does this every election time.

Oh god, more :sad:

[Masterplumb]

While of course the black vote is important and B.H. Obama will get the overwhelming majority of it, the black vote only makes up 13%. I still believe its going to come down to those swing voters in a few states. I can't figure out McCain, does he realize he's in the middle of a campaign?

[woodenstickers]

We just reduced oil use in this country for the first time last month. China and India sucked up the difference, and will continue to suck up the difference. Oil prices are determined globally, with the weakened US dollar being a huge part of the problem as of late. Oil prices will not go down, even in ten years when we are producing at the peak of what all of these newly opened areas would produce.

There are millions of acres of unexplored area under lease by big oil right now. This is all a red herring. Bush tried to open drilling when he got elected, then in the last year of his term oil doubles? Will that help push through opening these areas for his former colleagues or help get a republican elected or both? Cuz drilling will not lower the price at the pump. Even Bush has said it is merely a psychological solution to drill more.

I honestly don't care if McCain gets elected. I think it is funny to watch "conservatives" support him though and pump up his pandering while ignoring his obvious down sides.

The only reason I am on here defending Obama is because he is the one getting the talking point bs thrown around on this site. If people were talking about McCain saying Putin was the leader of Germany being a good reason to crucify him, or that he didn't even know how to use a computer so how can we trust him to know how to run a country in the new world of techn--etc, I'd call people on that too. But this drilling thing is as ludicrous as when both McCain and Hillary were touting the "gas tax holiday" as a solution to gas prices. Bunk, pandering and BS. I would trust McCain more if he wasn't saying irrelevant things, taking time and being thoughtful is not a bad trait.

Or something.


Eli

[Masterplumb]

We just reduced oil use in this country for the first time last month. China and India sucked up the difference, and will continue to suck up the difference. Oil prices are determined globally, with the weakened US dollar being a huge part of the problem as of late. Oil prices will not go down, even in ten years when we are producing at the peak of what all of these newly opened areas would produce.

There are millions of acres of unexplored area under lease by big oil right now. This is all a red herring. Bush tried to open drilling when he got elected, then in the last year of his term oil doubles? Will that help push through opening these areas for his former colleagues or help get a republican elected or both? Cuz drilling will not lower the price at the pump. Even Bush has said it is merely a psychological solution to drill more.

I honestly don't care if McCain gets elected. I think it is funny to watch "conservatives" support him though and pump up his pandering while ignoring his obvious down sides.

The only reason I am on here defending Obama is because he is the one getting the talking point bs thrown around on this site. If people were talking about McCain saying Putin was the leader of Germany being a good reason to crucify him, or that he didn't even know how to use a computer so how can we trust him to know how to run a country in the new world of techn--etc, I'd call people on that too. But this drilling thing is as ludicrous as when both McCain and Hillary were touting the "gas tax holiday" as a solution to gas prices. Bunk, pandering and BS. I would trust McCain more if he wasn't saying irrelevant things, taking time and being thoughtful is not a bad trait.

Or something.




Eli

You make some good points about the dollar and McCain. The reason they havent drilled in those areas that are leased is that there is no oil there. You can't re-invent the wheel. You must drill where the oil is.

I've heard the talking points about drilling here will not lower the price significantly, but I have to disagree with that. It goes against the basic principal of supply and demand. Maybe it is something more intelligible then I can comprehend, I dont know? If we were pulling millions of barrells of oil out of the ground and didnt put those barrels on the global market (sold only to the U.S.) I couldn't see how it could not lower it. How come Iran pays only about $.15/gal for gas, yes thats 15 cents and venezuela pays only about .24 cents?

Even if it didnt lower the prices of gasoline and heating oil, dont you think it would be good for the economy to create all these jobs HERE? Did anyone ever think of how unstable oil is, what would happen to the price of oil if there was a terrorist attack in the oil fields of Saudi Arabia? We need to drill here for jobs and for security. It's not always about the money, but yes it is important too.

[woodenstickers]

You make some good points about the dollar and McCain. The reason they havent drilled in those areas that are leased is that there is no oil there. You can't re-invent the wheel. You must drill where the oil is.

I've heard the talking points about drilling here will not lower the price significantly, but I have to disagree with that. It goes against the basic principal of supply and demand. Maybe it is something more intelligible then I can comprehend, I dont know? If we were pulling millions of barrells of oil out of the ground and didnt put those barrels on the global market (sold only to the U.S.) I couldn't see how it could not lower it. How come Iran pays only about $.15/gal for gas, yes thats 15 cents and venezuela pays only about .24 cents?

Even if it didnt lower the prices of gasoline and heating oil, dont you think it would be good for the economy to create all these jobs HERE? Did anyone ever think of how unstable oil is, what would happen to the price of oil if there was a terrorist attack in the oil fields of Saudi Arabia? We need to drill here for jobs and for security. It's not always about the money, but yes it is important too.

Until we get out from under our oil use we will be a slave to the oil producing countries no matter where we get our oil. We get most of our imported oil from Canada right now I think (I may be wrong). My point about it being a global commodity is that if oil production gets disrupted in S.A. or anywhere else it will still have just as large an effect on prices whether we are producing a million barrels more a day or not. When and if we produce more oil the oil we leave on the international market will easily get absorbed by the Asian countries and nothing will change in supply, demand, or the globally set price per barrel. The reason S.A. and Venezuela are able/willing to sell fuel in their own countries for so little is that they are nationally controlled industries. That will not happen here and domestic oil companies will not sell to us at a fraction of what their product is worth on the global market. It will never happen.

Jeeze, even just to put a good face on their companies, if only for public relations the domestic oil companies could EASILY afford to drop prices a dime a gallon and still make enormous profits. What makes you think they will ever do anything besides squeeze whatever profit they can out of us? If we open up drilling that will not be "our" oil that comes out of our ground. It will belong to the same profiteers that control the market now and won't take penny one out of the pockets of the middle east. They can and will sell to China and India just as happily and profitably.

It's not a solution. Not to the problems we are discussing here, or that the politicians are trying to pin on it. It will make many rich people even richer. That is all.


Eli


PS If oil production gets disrupted in SA we are effed either way as well. At full production in 10 years it we will still only be pulling a tiny percentage of our own domestic needs--at todays usage--out of the ground. Not nearly enough to offset any problems that arise over there.

[ToUtahNow]

Until we get out from under our oil use we will be a slave to the oil producing countries no matter where we get our oil. We get most of our imported oil from Canada right now I think (I may be wrong). My point about it being a global commodity is that if oil production gets disrupted in S.A. or anywhere else it will still have just as large an effect on prices whether we are producing a million barrels more a day or not. When and if we produce more oil the oil we leave on the international market will easily get absorbed by the Asian countries and nothing will change in supply, demand, or the globally set price per barrel. The reason S.A. and Venezuela are able/willing to sell fuel in their own countries for so little is that they are nationally controlled industries. That will not happen here and domestic oil companies will not sell to us at a fraction of what their product is worth on the global market. It will never happen.

Jeeze, even just to put a good face on their companies, if only for public relations the domestic oil companies could EASILY afford to drop prices a dime a gallon and still make enormous profits. What makes you think they will ever do anything besides squeeze whatever profit they can out of us? If we open up drilling that will not be "our" oil that comes out of our ground. It will belong to the same profiteers that control the market now and won't take penny one out of the pockets of the middle east. They can and will sell to China and India just as happily and profitably.

It's not a solution. Not to the problems we are discussing here, or that the politicians are trying to pin on it. It will make many rich people even richer. That is all.


Eli


PS If oil production gets disrupted in SA we are effed either way as well. At full production in 10 years it we will still only be pulling a tiny percentage of our own domestic needs--at todays usage--out of the ground. Not nearly enough to offset any problems that arise over there.

Just imagine what would happen if we were an oil producing country.

Mark

[woodenstickers]

Just imagine what would happen if we were an oil producing country.

Mark

We don't have the resources. Even if we did now, we sure wouldn't forever. So better yet, imagine if we stopped depending on dinosaur crap and harvested renewable and less damaging energy. Then we could tell the middle east to solve their own problems, bathe in their oil if they want to and get the world off their economic teet. Sure would make them less dangerous.

Ever heard of Pickens? His plan can also be implimented in 10 years and have a much larger effect. Not as sexy as blaming environmentalists though.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/science/07/08/pickens.plan/index.html

Or we can continue to do what we have been doing for the last century like it is the only solution.

Eli

[Masterplumb]

We definitely need to use all sources possible for energy, but that is a long way away. Do you make everyone buy new cars? New heating systems? If we can't afford gas what makes you think people can afford new vehicles that run on these alternate fuels?

[Frankiarmz]

We definitely need to use all sources possible for energy, but that is a long way away. Do you make everyone buy new cars? New heating systems? If we can't afford gas what makes you think people can afford new vehicles that run on these alternate fuels?

I totally agree with you. Good ideas, progressive ideas are fine if you can figure a way to make them affordable. I laughed when some one suggested people simply move closer to where they work in order to save, that is completely out of the realm of possibility that I can't begin to say why. How come France can use safe, clean Nuclear energy but we can't? Is the problem the environmentalists or the sloppy work done in the past? I think one thing that would help all these alternative energies getting put into use would be bigger rebates, tax breaks and any other incentives you can think of. I can get solar panels up and running for roughly $50,000 with a gov't rebate of roughly $15,00. That's still out of my price range but if the rebate was 50% or more it would get me and plenty of others giving it serious thought. I also think the more popular these installs become the lower the price, more installers, better production methods? Switching my car from gasoline to natural gas is not an option, I can't afford the conversion and my car is eighteen years old! Do you agree that any significant number of people who buy hybrid cars, supplement with solar energy and other alternative energies will help all of us somehow? Action. I enjoy the conversation but these high bills at the pump, heating fuel deliveries and food store are hurting.

[Masterplumb]

I totally agree with you. Good ideas, progressive ideas are fine if you can figure a way to make them affordable. I laughed when some one suggested people simply move closer to where they work in order to save, that is completely out of the realm of possibility that I can't begin to say why. How come France can use safe, clean Nuclear energy but we can't? Is the problem the environmentalists or the sloppy work done in the past? I think one thing that would help all these alternative energies getting put into use would be bigger rebates, tax breaks and any other incentives you can think of. I can get solar panels up and running for roughly $50,000 with a gov't rebate of roughly $15,00. That's still out of my price range but if the rebate was 50% or more it would get me and plenty of others giving it serious thought. I also think the more popular these installs become the lower the price, more installers, better production methods? Switching my car from gasoline to natural gas is not an option, I can't afford the conversion and my car is eighteen years old! Do you agree that any significant number of people who buy hybrid cars, supplement with solar energy and other alternative energies will help all of us somehow? Action. I enjoy the conversation but these high bills at the pump, heating fuel deliveries and food store are hurting.

See Franki I knew you still liked me:happydance:

[cpw]

We definitely need to use all sources possible for energy, but that is a long way away. Do you make everyone buy new cars? New heating systems? If we can't afford gas what makes you think people can afford new vehicles that run on these alternate fuels?
Also, there is only so much you are going to get from that. My heating system is 87% efficient; there isn't a whole lot more you can squeeze out of a gallon of diesel fuel. And getting heat from a remote location to your house really means you need some kind of fuel (in practice, diesel, NG, or LP) or electricity. The marginal electricity generation is all burning something to make heat, converting it into steam, then electricity. When the fuel is at your house, it is more efficient because you can skip all those steps in the middle.

Also, with respect to alternative fuels; until they can economically compete with oil it is fine for someone to buy them because they want to as a luxury; but I don't think the government should subsidize them. The government does a pretty bad job of betting on technologies. Ethanol subsidies are one of the reasons that milk has doubled in price.

Even if we can't elminate our dependence on foreign oil, the prices of commodities are very sensitive to the marginal cases. If we can increase supply relative to demand, then the price should hopefully drop disproportionately until they balance out.

[woodenstickers]

I totally agree with you. Good ideas, progressive ideas are fine if you can figure a way to make them affordable. I laughed when some one suggested people simply move closer to where they work in order to save, that is completely out of the realm of possibility that I can't begin to say why. How come France can use safe, clean Nuclear energy but we can't? Is the problem the environmentalists or the sloppy work done in the past? I think one thing that would help all these alternative energies getting put into use would be bigger rebates, tax breaks and any other incentives you can think of. I can get solar panels up and running for roughly $50,000 with a gov't rebate of roughly $15,00. That's still out of my price range but if the rebate was 50% or more it would get me and plenty of others giving it serious thought. I also think the more popular these installs become the lower the price, more installers, better production methods? Switching my car from gasoline to natural gas is not an option, I can't afford the conversion and my car is eighteen years old! Do you agree that any significant number of people who buy hybrid cars, supplement with solar energy and other alternative energies will help all of us somehow? Action. I enjoy the conversation but these high bills at the pump, heating fuel deliveries and food store are hurting.

I feel you Franki but drilling just simply isn't going to help a bit. Even the proponents are saying so. It is all perception. They made mistakes that have made it hurt and now are using that pain to manipulate us. It is not even CLOSE to be supported by the facts.
Follow that link I posted. It is a Billionaire Oil man who is putting his money into a plan to build wind farms. He says it will take 10 years to replace 20% of the nations power, then use the natural gas to fuel cars. Of course not everyone will go out and buy a conversion--probably it would happen as people would have bought new vehicles anyway--but the reduction in demand on oil would be greater than the drilling proposals, even if they all work out and in the same amount of time.

And this is just with HIS project in Texas. If we put our effort into a REAL solution instead of gambling on digging more holes we might actually really make a difference. Otherwise we are buying snake oil from the same salesmen.

And BTW, if you think oil production helps prices at the pump, why is Canada still paying more than us? They sell us more oil than S.A. It's a lie. I'll say it again-It won't do anything but make rich guys richer.

[Frankiarmz]

I feel you Franki but drilling just simply isn't going to help a bit. Even the proponents are saying so. It is all perception. They made mistakes that have made it hurt and now are using that pain to manipulate us. It is not even CLOSE to be supported by the facts.
Follow that link I posted. It is a Billionaire Oil man who is putting his money into a plan to build wind farms. He says it will take 10 years to replace 20% of the nations power, then use the natural gas to fuel cars. Of course not everyone will go out and buy a conversion--probably it would happen as people would have bought new vehicles anyway--but the reduction in demand on oil would be greater than the drilling proposals, even if they all work out and in the same amount of time.

And this is just with HIS project in Texas. If we put our effort into a REAL solution instead of gambling on digging more holes we might actually really make a difference. Otherwise we are buying snake oil from the same salesmen.

And BTW, if you think oil production helps prices at the pump, why is Canada still paying more than us? They sell us more oil than S.A. It's a lie. I'll say it again-It won't do anything but make rich guys richer.

I have posted here before that unless there were guarantees of cheaper prices we would simply be giving big oil higher profits. I also posted that we need solutions now and in the near future in addition to ten to fifteen years out. Building nuclear power plants properly takes years as well ,but the longer we stay in limbo doing nothing but talking and paying these outrageous prices for fuel and associated products and services the further we will be from any relief. I have reservations regarding our environment and drilling for oil but what is our government offering us in the way of a fix for this problem? I am hoping to get a woodburning stove or fireplace insert before the coming Winter because I can't afford the price of heating oil and I don't want to freeze. I'm concerned about my bad back and feeding wood throughout the long cold season. I wonder how the air quality will be if more and more people use wood as a source of heat? Don't know how accuracte this quote is but "A government by the people and for the people", how true is that? Our legislators are all insulated from the problems of working class people, they don't care about the price of gasoline, diesel, heating oil or food! Democrat or Republican, in my opinion they do not care enough to come together for the better good of " We The People". Not to bash McCain but recently he mentioned something about a money award for some breakthrough battery technology. I have news for him, the Auto industry (GM) has all the breakthrough technology to make a plugin car with a three hundred mile range. Obama, McCain, take your pick, I'll be collecting wood and driving as little as possible. :mad:

[tinmack]

And BTW, if you think oil production helps prices at the pump, why is Canada still paying more than us? They sell us more oil than S.A. It's a lie. I'll say it again-It won't do anything but make rich guys richer.

Well, Canada gave(and still give) the oil away at firesale prices under NAFTA...



And yes, as always, the Stickers is correct.

There should be no political wrangling on this forum.....just listen to the Stickers.......what he says is true.:cool:

On another note, as of today Obama says he wants to pull out of Iraq and transfer the troops to Afghanistan where, as he puts it, "the real war on terror is."

Yeah, that is correct Mr. Obama, but I don't think there's any oil in Afghanistan....;)

[woodenstickers]

Not to bash McCain but recently he mentioned something about a money award for some breakthrough battery technology. I have news for him, the Auto industry (GM) has all the breakthrough technology to make a plugin car with a three hundred mile range. Obama, McCain, take your pick, I'll be collecting wood and driving as little as possible. :mad:

Rick posted a link to the Tesla a few months ago and since then I had the opportunity to see one and read about them. In fact, when looking for jobs on Craigslist I saw that they are hiring a shop manager. Anyway, it is a super car, meaning in the realm of Lamborghini and Ferrari in terms of looks and speed. And it really is. It is gorgeous and fast as hell. The sticker price is $109,000--obviously out of reach for most, but their point was to make a car that competes with cars three and four times as expensive--it's their flagship. It goes 220 miles on a charge, plugs into a wall socket and has a very simple electric motor. 0-60 in under 4 seconds. 256 mpg equivalent in energy usage and less than $.02 a mile.

http://www.teslamotors.com/

They are planning to come out with a sedan that will be competitively priced. They are really trying to make it happen, not be a car for rich folks to feel good about themselves. So we start using wind power to make our electricity, start using electricity to run our cars and tell the OPEC countries to start being more frugal. Then WE are the wave of the future again, like the US used to be. We are the owners of the new technology, we are the ones who are changing the world again.

This country has a long history of being the cutting edge of what the world will be. Why are we still doing what we have been doing forever? Do we really need to get every last drop out of the ground, really need to live within eye-sight of oil derricks off of our beautiful coast?

The same people who bought the technology for the electric plug in car then shelved the project until now are the ones who are telling us we have to drill. The same people who told us Saddam needed to be taken out before he nuked us :rolleyes:, it would take 6 weeks, it would be paid for with Iraqi oil are the ones telling us we have to open up our coastline to their former colleagues. Funnily enough, those same colleagues are now getting no-bid contracts for oil in Iraq. All in the final months of the administration. I wonder when they will start paying back the American people for all of the Iraqi infrastructure that oil was promised to pay for?

Obama is a politician too. One thing they have all proven to us by now is that we are in this for ourselves. The government will not act in our interests--we don't have enough money to buy them.

As for now, I don't know what to tell you Franki. I really do hear you about how this is going to affect you this winter. It is academic to me at the moment only because I am lucky, but I know it is much more than that to you--not in the future, right now. It kind of drives it home to me. We are being robbed and abused by the people who we elect.

Eli

[NHMaster3015]

well, the truth is is we sit around and wait for the politicians to solve the problem, we'll be living in caves again and freezing our collective asses off. Industry has and always will provide the next step. We just need to either support or boot them in the butt. Which ever has the desirable effect. I for one, faced with a $ 12,000 heating bill, have installed a Viessmann Vitolig pellett burning boiler beside my Viessman oil boiler. This puppy should cost me roughly 1/4 what the oil boiler costs to run. It is expensive, but will pay for itself in slightly under 2 years if oil stays at or continues to rise in price. And though there is zero to slightly negative pay back for hydronic for the average customer. I get the parts at a discount so I will most likley put a couple panels on the roof also.

[DuckButter]

Definition of confusion?
Put Frankie, CPW, MP, Woodenstickers & NhMaster in a room and ask 'em to tell us who the best candidate is.:eek:

I do like the direction the chat took...the Tesla was posted by OSC about a month back...it claims a range of 220 miles on one charge.

I have to learn more...too good to be true comes to mind, plus a six figure price tag to boot.

[Masterplumb]

Definition of confusion?
Put Frankie, CPW, MP, Woodenstickers & NhMaster in a room and ask 'em to tell us who the best candidate is.:eek:

I do like the direction the chat took...the Tesla was posted by OSC about a month back...it claims a range of 220 miles on one charge.

I have to learn more...too good to be true comes to mind, plus a six figure price tag to boot.

Me, NHM, CPW have them out numbered:p. Truth is that I dont believe the best canidate is running.

[woodenstickers]

Definition of confusion?
Put Frankie, CPW, MP, Woodenstickers & NhMaster in a room and ask 'em to tell us who the best candidate is.:eek:

I do like the direction the chat took...the Tesla was posted by OSC about a month back...it claims a range of 220 miles on one charge.

I have to learn more...too good to be true comes to mind, plus a six figure price tag to boot.

It also says 3.5 hours for a full charge cycle and that it will run on less than that. I have seen two of these on the street now. One was parked in the lot by my old warehouse. We were neighbors with a company that ships expensive cars for their owners so they can drive them when they get to the west coast. There were always Ferraris, Lamborghinis bentlys Mazzeratis and Lotus sitting there (and LOTS of doughnut marks in the parking lot). The Tesla was beautiful.

Then just last week I saw one driving up the hill by my house--it was so quiet I couldn't believe it.

I am not suggesting that anyone buy one of these, but it just proves that it can be done. I am not sure what the maintenance costs, or battery costs, or cost to the environment with battery disposal would be--I'm sure there are many downsides--but the growing pains are going to have to come sometime.

If the claims are accurate-$.02 per mile that would be a savings of about $.30 per mile over my silverado at the price I filled up today $4.39pg. If I drive an average of 12,000 miles a year (more than that with my last job but probably about right for my new one--and I don't need the utility of the pick up for this one either) that will save me $3762.85 a year in fuel costs. I hope to get at least 10 years out of any new car I buy--still got 5 to go on the silverado if I can afford it, so assuming gas stays the same price as it is now a sticker price of $37-38,000 more than I would usually spend pays for itself. I spent $34,000 on the truck.

Average car price including financing in 2005 was about $28,000. Add the $38,000 and you are looking at $66,000 being a feasable price for a sedan that would save you this kind of money over it's life. That is a long way from $109,000, but then cars in the class of the Tesla Roadster are easily triple that.

Anyway, back to McCain. Today he tried to claim that the drop in oil prices was due to the increased talks about offshore drilling. Nobody--not even the Whitehouse is claiming that to be the case and all the experts say it is because of decreased demand and market correction. He is proving himself to be more and more of a politician every time he speaks.

And Obama won't accomplish anything. They are both hot air.


Eli

Just for the record I told a left leaning buddy she was full of it when she brought up McCains 100 years in Iraq quote as proof that he wants to wage war for 100 years like that moveon.org commercial. If anyone brought that up here I'd tell them the same thing.

[Frankiarmz]

well, the truth is is we sit around and wait for the politicians to solve the problem, we'll be living in caves again and freezing our collective asses off. Industry has and always will provide the next step. We just need to either support or boot them in the butt. Which ever has the desirable effect. I for one, faced with a $ 12,000 heating bill, have installed a Viessmann Vitolig pellett burning boiler beside my Viessman oil boiler. This puppy should cost me roughly 1/4 what the oil boiler costs to run. It is expensive, but will pay for itself in slightly under 2 years if oil stays at or continues to rise in price. And though there is zero to slightly negative pay back for hydronic for the average customer. I get the parts at a discount so I will most likley put a couple panels on the roof also.

Good for you! I looked into a woodburning boiler, five thousand pounds, six inch thick ceramic. Installation would run me another five thousand. Down side was the 8.1 cubic ft fire box. I figured it was roughly three time the size of a woodburning stove or insert and feeding it would be a tough job. I would also need a very sizeable supply of wood. These things can work well if you have the necessary things to support it. I shy away from the pellets because once again their price and availabilty are subject to change. All I need now is a stove or insert? Leaning towards the insert but it will draw electricity to power the blower.

[Service Guy]

Wow, Mccain is really getting desperate. His latest shenanigans make him look very much like a soon-to-be :loser:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080731/ap_on_el_pr/mccain

[ToUtahNow]

McCain also claimed Obama was going to raise taxes on anyone making over $32,000 but the Obama camp said he was only raising taxes on those making over $41,000. I'm not sure who is right but I'm sure glad no one here makes over $32,000 per year just in case.

Mark

[Service Guy]

McCain also claimed Obama was going to raise taxes on anyone making over $32,000 but the Obama camp said he was only raising taxes on those making over $41,000. I'm not sure who is right but I'm sure glad no one here makes over $32,000 per year just in case.

Mark

Funny how there are many people who support Obama who make high incomes.:scratchhead: Maybe taxes aren't evil after all, its what you do with the tax money that matters.:rolleyes:

[ToUtahNow]

Funny how there are many people who support Obama who make high incomes.:scratchhead: Maybe taxes aren't evil after all, its what you do with the tax money that matters.:rolleyes:


I'm not sure I would call it funny as I have never felt it was right for others to decide I need to pay their bills. If you're okay with it you should vote for Obama and prepare for some tough financial times. If Obama gets in it's going to be a heck of a time to build a small business.

Mark

[Service Guy]

I don't see it that way at all Mark. With Bill Clinton, we had a strong economy and he reduced the federal deficit greatly. With a republican in executive power, he has destroyed this country economically, the dollar is in the toilet...its time for change.

You see it your way, I see it mine...the polls will decide.

[ToUtahNow]

I don't see it that way at all Mark. With Bill Clinton, we had a strong economy and he reduced the federal deficit greatly. With a republican in executive power, he has destroyed this country economically, the dollar is in the toilet...its time for change.

You see it your way, I see it mine...the polls will decide.

I would say it has been pretty obvious you have been set on Obama regardless since the beginning and that's fine. I am at a point where the economy does not affect me as much as others so if Obama gets in I will be okay. I truly do wish you luck either way.

Mark

[Service Guy]

Thanks man. :love: I am a capitalist with many of the same values as you...I consider you a friend. But like masterplumb, NHmaster, etc. etc. you guys are my friends, but we see things a little differently politically.

And thats cool.

Sectional vs. drum.

T&M vs. flat-rate.

Democrat vs. Republican.

I love this argumentative forum.:love:

[NHMaster3015]

The more I see of Obama and the more I hear, the more I think he would be a disaster for this nation. I'd sooner vote for the communist party candidate. At least I know where he's coming from. Obama will say anything to get elected. In fact the sob is so damn arrogent he thinks he's already sitting in the oval office. I'm probably going to be wrong here, but I would love to be a fly on the wall when McCain wins the election. Of course then the democrats will claim it's because the country is all a bunch of racists. Never mind that their idiot candidate has done nothing, said nothing and has no experiance at anything. We'll all just overlook that because we need a "meaningfull change" whatever the hell that means. And we'll overlook all his ignorant and just plain stupid comments and ideas about world issues and the economy and his innane website plan for energy independence. All because we need "change" Hell any change is better than no change, right? Even if it means raising your taxes and energy costs and letting terrorists dictate policy. Let's all sit down with amadijinad and have a friendly little chat. So what that the jumped up little bastard wants to wipe Isreal off the map. Let's hear what he has to say and make friends. What a dolt. Isn't that what Chamberlain did with Hitler? Why yes it was and see how nice that turned out. Obama lacks the experiance, knowledge and common sense necessary to run a pizza hut let alone the nation. So if you hate George Bush, thats fine. But are you really willing to let this fool in the white house just because you dissagree with the current administration? You're not voting against G. Bush. He's leaving and taking his people with him. Get over it and vote for the good of the nation.

[cpw]

Funny how there are many people who support Obama who make high incomes.:scratchhead:
There are some high income people who a 5-10% pay cut won't affect that much and don't understand that there are plenty of people who it will. I, unfortunately, am not in the category of people who can just take a 10% paycut with no repercussions.

[Frankiarmz]

Guys, the more I hear from both of these candidates, the less I want to vote. I am convinced neither of them is what we need to get our economy and country back on it's feet. Regardless of who wins the election, the price of oil, lack of strong borders, problem with illegals, war, trade deficit and everything else that needs to change will remain the same. Both parties helped get us to this terrible point in our history and unless we can get someone who is not in the pocket of powerful lobbyists and business people, we are doomed to more of the same. I caught Jessie Ventura being interviewed by shaun hannity and he said some very interesting things. Mr. Ventura put hannity in his place several times and exposed both parties to really be one and the same. Big mouth hannity did not accuse Ventura of being unAmerican by speaking out against the war. When the balloons fly and one of these candidates is declared the winner I will find nothing to cheer about.

[Frankiarmz]

There are some high income people who a 5-10% pay cut won't affect that much and don't understand that there are plenty of people who it will. I, unfortunately, am not in the category of people who can just take a 10% paycut with no repercussions.

If you drive a car, or truck, buy food and heat a home you are already experiencing a cut to your income. The situation will get worse if we don't get much lower prices for these things. How will the war be paid for at a cost of tens of billions a month? Who will pay for the burden of illegals on our economy?

[Masterplumb]

Funny how there are many people who support Obama who make high incomes.:scratchhead: Maybe taxes aren't evil after all, its what you do with the tax money that matters.:rolleyes:


Yeah like give it to people who dont want to work. People who have their priorities mixed up and feel it's more important to have a car payment, plasma tv, cell phone, then to have health insurance? It's funny how I always had a job that health insurance was offered, and there are so many people that dont have insurance? If they make an effort and try to advance themselves they will be better off then the government trying wealth redistribution.

[Masterplumb]

I'm not sure I would call it funny as I have never felt it was right for others to decide I need to pay their bills. If you're okay with it you should vote for Obama and prepare for some tough financial times. If Obama gets in it's going to be a heck of a time to build a small business.

Mark

The I.R.S. always allows people to send them more money then they owe. The even have a form for it. For those that want higher taxes I say just send more money to the IRS they will love it.

[cpw]

If you drive a car, or truck, buy food and heat a home you are already experiencing a cut to your income. The situation will get worse if we don't get much lower prices for these things. How will the war be paid for at a cost of tens of billions a month? Who will pay for the burden of illegals on our economy?
Frankie, I agree with you; but there is nothing I can personally do about that; or for that matter there isn't necessarily anything our government can do about it either. Taxes on the other hand, our government can definitely do something about.

I work with several people who think that high gas prices are a good thing, because it will make us conserve more. This is the same kind of mindset that bothers me about higher taxes. The people who suggest this won't need to conserve because they aren't affected by $4-5 gas [at least one of them is honest enough to admit that]. Same thing with the people who advocate increasing taxes on the "rich" [even if they themselves are "rich"].

[Frankiarmz]

Frankie, I agree with you; but there is nothing I can personally do about that; or for that matter there isn't necessarily anything our government can do about it either. Taxes on the other hand, our government can definitely do something about.

I work with several people who think that high gas prices are a good thing, because it will make us conserve more. This is the same kind of mindset that bothers me about higher taxes. The people who suggest this won't need to conserve because they aren't affected by $4-5 gas [at least one of them is honest enough to admit that]. Same thing with the people who advocate increasing taxes on the "rich" [even if they themselves are "rich"].

While some people can drive a little less, there are those who must drive and have no choice to cutback. I don't think raising taxes will resolve the governments problems, in much the same way as an individual who is spending beyond their means government has got to cut spending and waste. Why do politicians on both sides insist on permitting the burden on our economy posed by illegals? Why do we fight a war with ground troops and why are we not compensated by Iraq? How can our government accept the trade deficit without a plan to change it? We are supposed to be part of " The Global Economy" and yet other countries impose tarriffs and other trade restrictions that we don't? How can we survive as a country when we import most of our goods from China and make very little of what we consume? There is way too much wrong to expect either of these men to change. They are both a part of the problem that got us where we are today!

[DuckButter]

I glanced at the article quickly.

I like McCains spin on it...fact is Obama does come off like a superficial flake.

NHMaster says it absolutely perfectly...all I can hear from Obama is the word "change" being used, used and reused over and over.

What change?

On one hand we have a war vet/hero with a proven track record of being above his own agenda in favor of whats right for his country.

On the other, a young fella that has glam appeal who continually recites the word change.

I've glanced around the net at message boards and discussion forums...what truly has me disturbed are the rationale's many are using for voting for Obama.
Many are simply deciding against MaCain because they feel he's too old...one particularly ignorant MB post actually criticized him for not retiring after he got home from being a POW.

The youngest generation in this country has me scared to death, the decision making process is focused on "bling" and pimped out bright & shiney appeal.

We have always wondered what would happen as a result of pacifying our children by sitting them in front of a TV for hours at a time...I think we're seeing it first hand.

[DuckButter]

Frankie, I agree with you; but there is nothing I can personally do about that; or for that matter there isn't necessarily anything our government can do about it either. Taxes on the other hand, our government can definitely do something about.

I work with several people who think that high gas prices are a good thing, because it will make us conserve more. This is the same kind of mindset that bothers me about higher taxes. The people who suggest this won't need to conserve because they aren't affected by $4-5 gas [at least one of them is honest enough to admit that]. Same thing with the people who advocate increasing taxes on the "rich" [even if they themselves are "rich"].
Be sure to tell them to keep that in mind the next time they get a bill from the service plumber.

[cpw]

While some people can drive a little less, there are those who must drive and have no choice to cutback. I don't think raising taxes will resolve the governments problems, in much the same way as an individual who is spending beyond their means government has got to cut spending and waste. Why do politicians on both sides insist on permitting the burden on our economy posed by illegals? Why do we fight a war with ground troops and why are we not compensated by Iraq? How can our government accept the trade deficit without a plan to change it? We are supposed to be part of " The Global Economy" and yet other countries impose tarriffs and other trade restrictions that we don't? How can we survive as a country when we import most of our goods from China and make very little of what we consume? There is way too much wrong to expect either of these men to change. They are both a part of the problem that got us where we are today!

Frankie,

I think I agree with pretty much everything you've said here.

Charles

[JERRYMAC]

SEE MY THREAD ON OBAMA IN AFGHANISTAN
AFTER GERMANY I WOULD NOT WANT HIM
AS COMMANDER IN CHIEF ! :loser:

[woodenstickers]

Gotta call BS again on a lot of folks who I know are smarter than they are letting on. Anyone of you who are beating the "he only says the word 'change'" drum are being intellectually dishonest. All of his proposed policies are outlined in detail and can be found via google in less time than it takes to switch your radio from Limbaugh to Hannity. If any of you complaining about his lack of substance in his message can tell me you have actually read all of his policies and are deciding based on THAT and not idiotic sound bytes--I'll cram for the Citizenship test and vote for the candidate of your choice in the next election.

Go ahead and make your decisions with whatever information you want--or want to omit in your considerations--but please don't regurgitate the same sorry tripe that you hear from the media or the sound bytes or the pundits or the effin campaign adds and pretend to be informed about jack squat. I really think you are all better than that. Go ahead, pick apart his policies. Pick apart his plans. But if you are claiming he doesn't have any you are playing dumb.

Sure he spits out fluff in his speeches. He is telling you what you want to hear and more than that trying not to tell you what you don't want to hear. That's what ALL politicians do every cycle. BS misleading adds. disingenuous representations of the opponent. Careful pandering and out and out lying. Every candidate, every cycle. Unless you are really the lowest common denominator that these tactics are designed for rise above it and don't play that game.

At very least don't expect to be given anything better until you cut that crap out. We are the reason they do it. It works. :shakehead:


Eli

[stxrus]

SEE MY THREAD ON OBAMA IN AFGHANISTAN
AFTER GERMANY I WOULD NOT WANT HIM
AS COMMANDER IN CHIEF ! :loser:

see my post in your thread

steve

[Masterplumb]

Gotta call BS again on a lot of folks who I know are smarter than they are letting on. Anyone of you who are beating the "he only says the word 'change'" drum are being intellectually dishonest. All of his proposed policies are outlined in detail and can be found via google in less time than it takes to switch your radio from Limbaugh to Hannity. If any of you complaining about his lack of substance in his message can tell me you have actually read all of his policies and are deciding based on THAT and not idiotic sound bytes--I'll cram for the Citizenship test and vote for the candidate of your choice in the next election.

Go ahead and make your decisions with whatever information you want--or want to omit in your considerations--but please don't regurgitate the same sorry tripe that you hear from the media or the sound bytes or the pundits or the effin campaign adds and pretend to be informed about jack squat. I really think you are all better than that. Go ahead, pick apart his policies. Pick apart his plans. But if you are claiming he doesn't have any you are playing dumb.

Sure he spits out fluff in his speeches. He is telling you what you want to hear and more than that trying not to tell you what you don't want to hear. That's what ALL politicians do every cycle. BS misleading adds. disingenuous representations of the opponent. Careful pandering and out and out lying. Every candidate, every cycle. Unless you are really the lowest common denominator that these tactics are designed for rise above it and don't play that game.

At very least don't expect to be given anything better until you cut that crap out. We are the reason they do it. It works. :shakehead:


Eli

Bottom line is he is going to raise taxes. He will take my hard earned money and re-distribute it to people who are too lazy to work for the necessary things. Those are not policies that I agree with. If you want more of your money to go to the government just send more with what you owe during tax season.

[biscuit]

I am not going to get into a political debate over any canidate here.

I will be casting my vote for the one I believe will cause the least amount of Damage (McCain).

I just dont believe Obama has the "Grit" , if you will, to cut it in the big house. I believe he will be run over and bullied by both parties.

I, like others have mentioned, am at a point in my life where a tax, energy, etc.. increase will not break the bank. I still dont like it, but I will survive. Howerver, many/most in this country really need to take a hard look at this election as it unfortunately will have a significant impact on them financially.

Just because you may not like either does not justify not voting.

Remember, if you don't vote, you have no right to bit*h:D*.

Regards,

[Frankiarmz]

I am not going to get into a political debate over any canidate here.

I will be casting my vote for the one I believe will cause the least amount of Damage (McCain).

I just dont believe Obama has the "Grit" , if you will, to cut it in the big house. I believe he will be run over and bullied by both parties.

I, like others have mentioned, am at a point in my life where a tax, energy, etc.. increase will not break the bank. I still dont like it, but I will survive. Howerver, many/most in this country really need to take a hard look at this election as it unfortunately will have a significant impact on them financially.

Just because you may not like either does not justify not voting.

Remember, if you don't vote, you have no right to bit*h:D*.

Regards,

If you've been following my posts on this Thread then you know I've flip flopped more than both candidates combined, but as a citizen with the right and duty to vote that's my prerogative. Right now I really don't like either candidate and I don't want to vote for someone I don't like! "If it comes to pass that I am one of many who don't vote in the election then I will not complain about the outcome. I am complaining right now that issues I believe are important appear to be beyond resolve by either candidate. I hope I'm wrong and pray that whoever wins will do great things to secure our borders, resolve the situation with illegals, put into action a plan to lower fuel costs, attack the problems of the trade deficit and national debt in addition to bringing our troops home. I'm asking an awful lot of one person, but our nation is in a lot of trouble.

[Service Guy]

SEE MY THREAD ON OBAMA IN AFGHANISTAN
AFTER GERMANY I WOULD NOT WANT HIM
AS COMMANDER IN CHIEF ! :loser:

That thread is based on garbage....its real crap. Do some real research instead of relying on biased rumors.:rolleyes:

[DUNBAR]

I'm closing my eyes until november 5th.


I don't like anything about this election whatsoever and there is no :help: in sight.


Why can't I click my heels 3 times and make this all go away...?

[Service Guy]

I love election years. They get everyone riled up!

[woodenstickers]

Bottom line is he is going to raise taxes. He will take my hard earned money and re-distribute it to people who are too lazy to work for the necessary things. Those are not policies that I agree with. If you want more of your money to go to the government just send more with what you owe during tax season.

I guess you prefer taking your hard earned money by NOT raising taxes, hell give you a $600 check even, then going into so much debt with China that they own us--could break us at will. The economy is tanking under that plan. But some industries are flourishing, the ones that employed the current cabinet members you voted for last cycle like military contractors and oil men. Let's give the $$ to them, forget the people who "don't want to work" and even the majority of people who actually lost their work through the no tax PLENTY of spend policies this country has just been maimed by.

Funny that. More than one line, bottom or not to look at.




Eli

[ToUtahNow]

It sure is easy to blame the big oil companies but no one talks about the $32,000,000,000 they paid last quarter in taxes. Now the Liberals who helped put us here to begin with by limiting drilling want to increase taxes on the oil company. At some point the oil companies will quit pumping and just refine all foreign oil. Oh wait I forgot Obama says he has a plan.

Mark

[JERRYMAC]

"BIG NEWS"
FIRST OFF BIG OIL COMPANY'S DON'T PAY TAX'S
THEY JUST PASS ALONG THE COST TO US AT THE PUMP ! !
IN THE 70'S OIL CRISES WE IMPORTED APPROX
20-30 PERCENT OIL FROM OVERSEAS
NOW IT'S UP TO 70-80 PERCENT SO IF WE WANT
TO GET AWAY FROM OPEC, WE HAVE TO START
INVESTING IN AMERICA FIRST, BY DRILLING,
NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS, ETC.
NO AMOUNT OF AIR IN MY TIRES IS GOING TO LOWER OIL BELOW 100.00 A BARREL :rant:

[woodenstickers]

It sure is easy to blame the big oil companies but no one talks about the $32,000,000,000 they paid last quarter in taxes. Now the Liberals who helped put us here to begin with by limiting drilling want to increase taxes on the oil company. At some point the oil companies will quit pumping and just refine all foreign oil. Oh wait I forgot Obama says he has a plan.

Mark

The most profits ever reported by any company EVER in history today, wow, even with all the taxes they pay. I think they may just keep on doin what they are doin there, don' t you? Give me a break, record profits and they are about to close up shop?

Anyway, go ahead and reread what I wrote without adding anything to my point of view for me. I am not blaming the oil companies for what they are doing. Buying politicians and using them to get whatever they want is smart. Getting their own elected? Even smarter. Making record profits while the people in the country are suffering is capitalism. Making you believe that if you give them more places to pull their oil from with tax breaks for doing it will they will lower prices for you--even when ALL THE FACTS say it isn't true by using the whitehouse and presidential candidates as their spokesmen is what any dollar driven corporation could only dream to of. But they are not really to blame.

No, I am blaming you. Not McCain. Not Bush. Not Obama. You. Not big oil. Not environmentalists. You. Because you simply would rather believe your fairlytale than look at how your "team" and the other "team" are playing you as a game.

And yes, blame is easy. It's even easier to blame a "lib" whatever the hell that is than to look at our own culpability in the matter. Maybe we do deserve it.A a certain point it must seem as though we like the abuse.




Eli

[woodenstickers]

"BIG NEWS"
FIRST OFF BIG OIL COMPANY'S DON'T PAY TAX'S
THEY JUST PASS ALONG THE COST TO US AT THE PUMP ! !
IN THE 70'S OIL CRISES WE IMPORTED APPROX
20-30 PERCENT OIL FROM OVERSEAS
NOW IT'S UP TO 70-80 PERCENT SO IF WE WANT
TO GET AWAY FROM OPEC, WE HAVE TO START
INVESTING IN AMERICA FIRST, BY DRILLING,
NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS, ETC.
NO AMOUNT OF AIR IN MY TIRES IS GOING TO LOWER OIL BELOW 100.00 A BARREL :rant:

You are wrong about almost every "fact" you have cut and pasted here. The biggest % of imported oil to the US comes from Canada by far. The price is not going to be set by how far away the oil comes from, but by how much it is worth on the world market. That will rise a lot faster than we can pull it out of the ground. Yes, the oil companies will get even richer as we give them the land that belongs to all of us to exploit and subsidize their efforts, but not from giving us a price break. Never has happened, never will happen.

Eli

[ToUtahNow]

The most profits ever reported by any company EVER in history today, wow, even with all the taxes they pay. I think they may just keep on doin what they are doin there, don' t you? Give me a break, record profits and they are about to close up shop?

Anyway, go ahead and reread what I wrote without adding anything to my point of view for me. I am not blaming the oil companies for what they are doing. Buying politicians and using them to get whatever they want is smart. Getting their own elected? Even smarter. Making record profits while the people in the country are suffering is capitalism. Making you believe that if you give them more places to pull their oil from with tax breaks for doing it will they will lower prices for you--even when ALL THE FACTS say it isn't true by using the whitehouse and presidential candidates as their spokesmen is what any dollar driven corporation could only dream to of. But they are not really to blame.

No, I am blaming you. Not McCain. Not Bush. Not Obama. You. Not big oil. Not environmentalists. You. Because you simply would rather believe your fairlytale than look at how your "team" and the other "team" are playing you as a game.

And yes, blame is easy. It's even easier to blame a "lib" whatever the hell that is than to look at our own culpability in the matter. Maybe we do deserve it.A a certain point it must seem as though we like the abuse.




Eli

Pretty funny stuff I will give you that. I can guarantee you I have never filed a lawsuit to stop a power plant or an oil well. I find it funny you would blame any individual for where we are when it's the "not in my backyard" attitude which is forcing us to go to the middle east for oil. I'm curious what percentage of sales do you believe the oil companies should be able to keep. Are you willing to work for the same percentage of your sales? There is a reason Congress now has an approval rating in the single digits and it's not because they are doing the peoples will.

Mark

[ToUtahNow]

You are wrong about almost every "fact" you have cut and pasted here. The biggest % of imported oil to the US comes from Canada by far. The price is not going to be set by how far away the oil comes from, but by how much it is worth on the world market. That will rise a lot faster than we can pull it out of the ground. Yes, the oil companies will get even richer as we give them the land that belongs to all of us to exploit and subsidize their efforts, but not from giving us a price break. Never has happened, never will happen.

Eli

I would say he was pretty close. Doing rough numbers we get almost 3-times as much oil from OPEC nations as we do from Canada. The overseas part may not be true as some of the OPEC nations are in South America. I question as to whether he really meant to say foreign countries as opposed to overseas.

Mark

[Frankiarmz]

Pretty funny stuff I will give you that. I can guarantee you I have never filed a lawsuit to stop a power plant or an oil well. I find it funny you would blame any individual for where we are when it's the "not in my backyard" attitude which is forcing us to go to the middle east for oil. I'm curious what percentage of sales do you believe the oil companies should be able to keep. Are you willing to work for the same percentage of your sales? There is a reason Congress now has an approval rating in the single digits and it's not because they are doing the peoples will.

Mark

I can see the sense in drilling here and risking a spill if we are guaranteed lower prices rather than greater profits for big oil. Regarding an allowable percentage of profit for big oil compared to other companies, industries or individually owned businesses, there is quite a difference between almost everything and everyone when compared to the essential commodity of crude oil once it is refined. Consumers can easily choose whether of not to eat a certain food or use a particular service, but there is no getting around gasoline for your car or heating oil for your house unless you are wealthy enough to switch to another source of energy. I consider what big oil has done with pricing to be a matter of national security because it threatens the safety of the American people, so I would urge our legislators to pass emergency legislation just as they have to protect us from terrorists. Have you given this matter any real thought or is this simply a joke to you? Americans are going to freeze to death because of how high the cost of heating oil has risen! There is no free market here, no opportunity for the average consumer to shop elsewhere for gasoline, heating oil and food! We are at the mercy of big oil and that changes the dynamic of the whole thing. The word "arrogant" has been thrown around lately to describe some politicians but I think it also applies to people who ignore the damage done to our economy and the very existence of some Americans as a result of the free market rights of businesses including big oil. I am not suggesting a limit on profits for all businesses, but I am stating that it should be done in the case of big oil and the sooner the better. Freeze their profit margin retroactively to a point where prices won't cripple our society, stop all trading on oil futures. that's right! Remove those things from the stock market. Do what should have been done over thrity years ago, take this time to build the safe and clean nuclear plants that other nations have. Take this time to build windmill farms and install solar panels throughout our land. Drill for oil locally, but do so with the understanding that limits on profits will be set to allow for a fair profit to those who are in the business while at the same time protecting the American consumer. You want to raise your prices? Go right ahead, consumers can either pay what you want or choose someone else. Just give them the same choice when it comes to the price they pay for their energy, or limit the profit they are paying to those who have a strangle hold on them. I don't mind big oil making a profit, but I do mind big oil causing such harm. If you are self employed you can raise your prices and see if you can increase your profit margin, unfortunately most Americans are on a fixed income because they either work for someone else, are unemployed or retired. Their profit margin is fixed, or falling due to these drastic price increases many of which are the result of big oil. These many Americans cannot earn more and must be protected by the same system that allowed this problem to get out of hand. Please think before you respond and do not disregard your fellow Americans or their situations. We are talking about survival and quality of life issues compared to profit, there is a difference.

[woodenstickers]

Pretty funny stuff I will give you that. I can guarantee you I have never filed a lawsuit to stop a power plant or an oil well. I find it funny you would blame any individual for where we are when it's the "not in my backyard" attitude which is forcing us to go to the middle east for oil. I'm curious what percentage of sales do you believe the oil companies should be able to keep. Are you willing to work for the same percentage of your sales? There is a reason Congress now has an approval rating in the single digits and it's not because they are doing the peoples will.

Mark


No, you haven't files a lawsuit to stop drilling, but you gladly repeat the line that drilling will change the price we pay. You happily point out that "libs" have protested unchecked use of not just our land, but every generation to come behind us so they can make money now, but you don't seem to think a thing about the "cons" who have gigantic oil interests who have been in power in ALL three branches to at least one for how long again?

There is a reason all politicians have such low approval ratings, congress was in the tank and going down for years, where is Bush right now? But I blame you because rather than be realistic you want to use it and twist it and pretend that it is "libs" dems, obama, and give the "good guys" who really have our best interests at heart, you know, the republicans, your team, a free pass on how they have screwed us and even worse support them in their efforts to do it again. Go find one post where I support raising taxes. Better yet go find a source for the idea that drilling will save us a dime at the pump.

You pull out the "the poor oil companies can hardly stay in business" card every time this discussion comes up and say "if only they could have been drilling more we'd all be fine." Bunk. They are richer than ever. They have so much money to spend and so much profit to make they can't wait to expand. And this will help us how?

I'm so tired of the BS. You would rather play us vs them than see that none of them include you or me when they say "us".

I don't like Obama for many reasons. But it is ridiculous to claim he will be the downfall of the country when the guy you supported the last 8 years has already pulled the handle on the toilet.

It's not you I"m talking about. It is your attitude, and mine. We are dupes. You won't see me support any of these thieves ever again. You will see me speak up every time someone endangers my future by banging the propaganda drum for one though. Not even because I think it will do any good, but because I am tired of them not being held accountable due to their divide and conquer tactics.


Eli


Eli

[woodenstickers]

I can see the sense in drilling here and risking a spill if we are guaranteed lower prices rather than greater profits for big oil. Regarding an allowable percentage of profit for big oil compared to other companies, industries or individually owned businesses, there is quite a difference between almost everything and everyone when compared to the essential commodity of crude oil once it is refined. Consumers can easily choose whether of not to eat a certain food or use a particular service, but there is no getting around gasoline for your car or heating oil for your house unless you are wealthy enough to switch to another source of energy. I consider what big oil has done with pricing to be a matter of national security because it threatens the safety of the American people, so I would urge our legislators to pass emergency legislation just as they have to protect us from terrorists. Have you given this matter any real thought or is this simply a joke to you? Americans are going to freeze to death because of how high the cost of heating oil has risen! There is no free market here, no opportunity for the average consumer to shop elsewhere for gasoline, heating oil and food! We are at the mercy of big oil and that changes the dynamic of the whole thing. The word "arrogant" has been thrown around lately to describe some politicians but I think it also applies to people who ignore the damage done to our economy and the very existence of some Americans as a result of the free market rights of businesses including big oil. I am not suggesting a limit on profits for all businesses, but I am stating that it should be done in the case of big oil and the sooner the better. Freeze their profit margin retroactively to a point where prices won't cripple our society, stop all trading on oil futures. that's right! Remove those things from the stock market. Do what should have been done over thrity years ago, take this time to build the safe and clean nuclear plants that other nations have. Take this time to build windmill farms and install solar panels throughout our land. Drill for oil locally, but do so with the understanding that limits on profits will be set to allow for a fair profit to those who are in the business while at the same time protecting the American consumer. You want to raise your prices? Go right ahead, consumers can either pay what you want or choose someone else. Just give them the same choice when it comes to the price they pay for their energy, or limit the profit they are paying to those who have a strangle hold on them. I don't mind big oil making a profit, but I do mind big oil causing such harm. If you are self employed you can raise your prices and see if you can increase your profit margin, unfortunately most Americans are on a fixed income because they either work for someone else, are unemployed or retired. Their profit margin is fixed, or falling due to these drastic price increases many of which are the result of big oil. These many Americans cannot earn more and must be protected by the same system that allowed this problem to get out of hand. Please think before you respond and do not disregard your fellow Americans or their situations. We are talking about survival and quality of life issues compared to profit, there is a difference.

I linked an article about the wind farms in Texas. I linked an site about the electric car. Not one comment on those. It isn't sexy to look for solutions that would actually do anything, only spit across the aisle. Anyone who simplifies our problems with claims like "why, he'll raise taxes and taxes bad. end of story. Dems won't let the poor oil companies get at the oil so they can sell it to us for cheap!" is not looking for solutions, they are looking to simplify a situation until they can be more right than someone else.

We are screwed, sir. It has been coming for years. The fox is in the hen house and we are making it more comfortable for him every election with our hard earned money and it is getting worse and worse. I have no solution. It happens to every civilization. We are no different and will be studied in the future like all the rest.

Eli

[NHMaster3015]

"BIG NEWS"
FIRST OFF BIG OIL COMPANY'S DON'T PAY TAX'S
THEY JUST PASS ALONG THE COST TO US AT THE PUMP ! !
IN THE 70'S OIL CRISES WE IMPORTED APPROX
20-30 PERCENT OIL FROM OVERSEAS
NOW IT'S UP TO 70-80 PERCENT SO IF WE WANT
TO GET AWAY FROM OPEC, WE HAVE TO START
INVESTING IN AMERICA FIRST, BY DRILLING,
NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS, ETC.
NO AMOUNT OF AIR IN MY TIRES IS GOING TO LOWER OIL BELOW 100.00

A BARREL :rant:

Jerry, that's technically true, but so do all companies, so do you. And if those taxes reach the point where the companies bottom line can no longer hold the deficit gets passed along to the stock holders. It's a balancing act at best. But you all need to remember that big oil is owned by literally thousands of stock holders just like you and me. yes, the CEO's get paid a lot more than I think they are worth but you should take a look at the dividend reports for stock holders also.

[tinmack]

I would say he was pretty close. Doing rough numbers we get almost 3-times as much oil from OPEC nations as we do from Canada. The overseas part may not be true as some of the OPEC nations are in South America. I question as to whether he really meant to say foreign countries as opposed to overseas.

Mark

Closer to 2 times as much - Mexico is not a member of OPEC.

[ToUtahNow]

No, you haven't files a lawsuit to stop drilling, but you gladly repeat the line that drilling will change the price we pay. You happily point out that "libs" have protested unchecked use of not just our land, but every generation to come behind us so they can make money now, but you don't seem to think a thing about the "cons" who have gigantic oil interests who have been in power in ALL three branches to at least one for how long again?

There is a reason all politicians have such low approval ratings, congress was in the tank and going down for years, where is Bush right now? But I blame you because rather than be realistic you want to use it and twist it and pretend that it is "libs" dems, obama, and give the "good guys" who really have our best interests at heart, you know, the republicans, your team, a free pass on how they have screwed us and even worse support them in their efforts to do it again. Go find one post where I support raising taxes. Better yet go find a source for the idea that drilling will save us a dime at the pump.

You pull out the "the poor oil companies can hardly stay in business" card every time this discussion comes up and say "if only they could have been drilling more we'd all be fine." Bunk. They are richer than ever. They have so much money to spend and so much profit to make they can't wait to expand. And this will help us how?

I'm so tired of the BS. You would rather play us vs them than see that none of them include you or me when they say "us".

I don't like Obama for many reasons. But it is ridiculous to claim he will be the downfall of the country when the guy you supported the last 8 years has already pulled the handle on the toilet.

It's not you I"m talking about. It is your attitude, and mine. We are dupes. You won't see me support any of these thieves ever again. You will see me speak up every time someone endangers my future by banging the propaganda drum for one though. Not even because I think it will do any good, but because I am tired of them not being held accountable due to their divide and conquer tactics.


Eli


Eli

I don't believe drilling is the only thing we should do but it is one of them. I posted a long time ago that just the threat that we were exploring for oil would lower the cost of oil. Within days of Bush lifting the executive order on off-shore drilling the price started to slide. Why should foreign countries sell oil to us on the cheap when we won't pump from our own country?

Mark

[ToUtahNow]

Closer to 2 times as much - Mexico is not a member of OPEC.

I did not include mexico as it is not a member of OPEC.

OPEC Quotas and Production in thousands of barrels per day [20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OPEC#cite_note-19)CountryQuota (7/1/05)Production (1/07)CapacityAlgeria8941,3601,430Angola1,9001,7001,7 00Ecuador520500500Iran4,1103,7003,750Iraq1,481Kuwa it2,2472,5002,600Libya1,5001,6501,700Nigeria2,3062 ,2502,250Qatar726810850Saudi Arabia10,0998,80010,500United Arab Emirates2,4442,5002,600Venezuela3,2252,3402,450Tot al31,42230,45132,230

Mark

[ToUtahNow]

I linked an article about the wind farms in Texas. I linked an site about the electric car. Not one comment on those. It isn't sexy to look for solutions that would actually do anything, only spit across the aisle. Anyone who simplifies our problems with claims like "why, he'll raise taxes and taxes bad. end of story. Dems won't let the poor oil companies get at the oil so they can sell it to us for cheap!" is not looking for solutions, they are looking to simplify a situation until they can be more right than someone else.

We are screwed, sir. It has been coming for years. The fox is in the hen house and we are making it more comfortable for him every election with our hard earned money and it is getting worse and worse. I have no solution. It happens to every civilization. We are no different and will be studied in the future like all the rest.

Eli

I have nothing against wind mills and I am trying to see if I can install one in my place in Utah. We have a bunch of Wind Farms around where I live in Southern California but there is lawsuits to close many of them down because of the fear birds including Condors will fly into them. As for electric cars they won't work for me but my brother owns one and I am constantly working on it with him including towing him home more than I care to say.

Mark

[tinmack]

I did not include mexico as it is not a member of OPEC.

OPEC Quotas and Production in thousands of barrels per day [20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OPEC#cite_note-19)CountryQuota (7/1/05)Production (1/07)CapacityAlgeria8941,3601,430Angola1,9001,7001,7 00Ecuador520500500Iran4,1103,7003,750Iraq1,481Kuwa it2,2472,5002,600Libya1,5001,6501,700Nigeria2,3062 ,2502,250Qatar726810850Saudi Arabia10,0998,80010,500United Arab Emirates2,4442,5002,600Venezuela3,2252,3402,450Tot al31,42230,45132,230

Mark

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_level_imports/current/import.html

I think you want the import stats, not the total production stats, as all production is not being exported to the US.

[ToUtahNow]

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_level_imports/current/import.html

I think you want the import stats, not the total production stats, as all production is not being exported to the US.

Yeap that was the list I took the figures from. The cut-n-paste I pasted was just the list of OPEC nations so I knew which ones to include when I used the chart you just linked to.

Mark

[tinmack]

Yeap that was the list I took the figures from. The cut-n-paste I pasted was just the list of OPEC nations so I knew which ones to include when I used the chart you just linked to.

Mark

May 2008 numbers have 2956 barrels from Canada and Mexico, with 6243 barrels from the rest - essentially a little more than twice as much.

If you were using YTD numbers or Year ending numbers, those are different numbers.....

[cpw]

I linked an article about the wind farms in Texas. I linked an site about the electric car. Not one comment on those. It isn't sexy to look for solutions that would actually do anything, only spit across the aisle. Anyone who simplifies our problems with claims like "why, he'll raise taxes and taxes bad. end of story. Dems won't let the poor oil companies get at the oil so they can sell it to us for cheap!" is not looking for solutions, they are looking to simplify a situation until they can be more right than someone else.
Yesterday i was listening to T. Boone Pickens (sp?) on Imus (he is the guy who wants to build all the wind farms in Texas). Even he says that we should drill for oil here and it will help. It is a false choice between drilling and alternatives - we can and should do both.

Also, why is it environmentalists think we should drill other places but not here. It is almost like the front fell off video where the tanker was towed "outside the environment." The logic seems to be if the drilling isn't in your back yard, then it isn't affecting the environment.

[ToUtahNow]

May 2008 numbers have 2956 barrels from Canada and Mexico, with 6243 barrels from the rest - essentially a little more than twice as much.

If you were using YTD numbers or Year ending numbers, those are different numbers.....

LOL-No that's why I said rough numbers. I used May 08 and used Canada (1840) versus the OPEC countries (5468) and came up with 2.9.

Mark

[tinmack]

LOL-No that's why I said rough numbers. I used May 08 and used Canada (1840) versus the OPEC countries (5468) and came up with 2.9.

Mark

Sorry Mark.....I thought you had earlier noted 3 times Canada and Mexico, but you said 3 times Canada. I went back and re-read your post.

I was stuck on the NAFTA/Non-OPEC side of things - 2 times the Canada AND Mexico amount.

Again, my apologies.........

[ToUtahNow]

Not a problem I enjoyed the exchage.

Mark

[cpw]

Not a problem I enjoyed the exchage.

Mark
Things like this are always great when both sides have a citation for the numbers. It helps everyone come to their own conclusions.

[woodenstickers]

Yesterday i was listening to T. Boone Pickens (sp?) on Imus (he is the guy who wants to build all the wind farms in Texas). Even he says that we should drill for oil here and it will help. It is a false choice between drilling and alternatives - we can and should do both.

Also, why is it environmentalists think we should drill other places but not here. It is almost like the front fell off video where the tanker was towed "outside the environment." The logic seems to be if the drilling isn't in your back yard, then it isn't affecting the environment.

I don't think that is really the logic being used by environmentalists. In fact I'd dare to say that from the most hardcore on down they would be for using less fossil fuels rather than importing more as well. Wanting to protect the unexploited areas that are left in this country, even if we still are lucky enough to have resources under them doesn't have much to do with saying it is okay to import oil til the earth is dry everywhere else. As a matter of fact I seem to recall being told that we needed to get off of fossil fuels before gas went up to $4-5. Around when I was in the third grade and they called it the greenhouse effect.

I'm sure you could find people who feel the "not in my back yard" mentality, but I haven't seen it represented here. The funny thing is before gas preices went up and people (environmentalist, conservationists, LIBS) were saying that our oil USE was a security issue, that driving SUVs was enriching our enemies it was poo-pooed by the same people claiming that is why we need to drill now--but not until the pundits told them so.


Eli

[woodenstickers]

I'll be back later to really get into it with sources and all. Good discussion, sorry if I got heated earlier on.

Eli

[ToUtahNow]

For all those who have been watching what has been going on regarding the energy bill I guess Congress felt it was not important enough to do anything so they all went home. Reed blocked any discussion which would lead to vote on any type of additional drilling so the Republicans refused to vote for the Bill. With the majority of the citizens asking for more drilling it sure seems that Reed should have at least allowed a discussion on the matter.

Now we will have to wait a month to see if the Gang of 10 can get their compromise Bill to float. It sure seems like a big lack of leadership to go home and not come to a compromise.

Mark

[Frankiarmz]

For all those who have been watching what has been going on regarding the energy bill I guess Congress felt it was not important enough to do anything so they all went home. Reed blocked any discussion which would lead to vote on any type of additional drilling so the Republicans refused to vote for the Bill. With the majority of the citizens asking for more drilling it sure seems that Reed should have at least allowed a discussion on the matter.

Now we will have to wait a month to see if the Gang of 10 can get their compromise Bill to float. It sure seems like a big lack of leadership to go home and not come to a compromise.

Mark

I want a cap on profits, stock trading on oil to stop, drilling with price guarantees to start, Nuclear power plants built to the standards of those in France ( what a disgrace to even have to say that!) wind turbine farms, government rebates increase for solar energy on private residence and businesses. Incentives for plugin electric and hybrid cars. We can guess as to wheter or not Republicans would have done the same as the Democrats but I think what they did was irresponsible and inexcusible. We can't afford another month, we need solutions NOW!

[ToUtahNow]

I want a cap on profits, stock trading on oil to stop, drilling with price guarantees to start, Nuclear power plants built to the standards of those in France ( what a disgrace to even have to say that!) wind turbine farms, government rebates increase for solar energy on private residence and businesses. Incentives for plugin electric and hybrid cars. We can guess as to wheter or not Republicans would have done the same as the Democrats but I think what they did was irresponsible and inexcusible. We can't afford another month, we need solutions NOW!


I believe both sides hold some responsibility but for Reed to block the discussion when the citizens want it seems like playing games to me.

Mark

[Service Guy]

It appears that Obama reads the ridgid forum and is taking us seriously! :eek: :D
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080801/ap_on_el_pr/obama;_ylt=AlEddyTOqXh_xMzFzqr9BZlh24cA

[Service Guy]

My interest is in making sure we've got the kind of comprehensive energy policy that can bring down gas prices," Obama said in an interview with The Palm Beach Post.

"If, in order to get that passed, we have to compromise in terms of a careful, well thought-out drilling strategy that was carefully circumscribed to avoid significant environmental damage — I don't want to be so rigid that we can't get something done."

He even used the word 'rigid!' ;) :D

[ToUtahNow]

He even used the word 'rigid!' ;) :D

Well I'm glad to see he changed his mind even though some will say he flip-flopped. However, I question whether he did anything as a Senator to force Reed to let the Senate at least discuss it.

Mark

[NHMaster3015]

He even used the word 'rigid!' ;) :D

Well today, when house republicans wanted to stay and hash out an energy bill, Nancy Pelosi shut off the lights and her and the dem's went home for the summer. Where was Barack? As usual a no show.

[ToUtahNow]

Well today, when house republicans wanted to stay and hash out an energy bill, Nancy Pelosi shut off the lights and her and the dem's went home for the summer. Where was Barack? As usual a no show.

I would not expect a Senator to be in the House of Representatives but he might have been in the Senate fighting for us.

Mark

[NHMaster3015]

Nope, he was out on the trail and as of yet has made no comment.

[DuckButter]

But....a light will shine down from the heavens and...a CHANGE will take place!

[ToUtahNow]

But....a light will shine down from the heavens and...a CHANGE will take place!

I'm afraid you do not give Obama a fair chance. I take him at his word that there will be a change. I also believe we will all see a major change in our life styles as Obama redistributes the wealth of hard working Americans.

Mark

[NHMaster3015]

I'm afraid you do not give Obama a fair chance. I take him at his word that there will be a change. I also believe we will all see a major change in our life styles as Obama redistributes the wealth of hard working Americans.

Mark

Mark; You are just a funnin us right? If not, aren't you a hard working American? Do you want your wealth redistributed?

(god I hope I spelled that rite, the polize are watchin me)

[DuckButter]

I'm afraid you do not give Obama a fair chance. I take him at his word that there will be a change. I also believe we will all see a major change in our life styles as Obama redistributes the wealth of hard working Americans.

Mark

I sea yor point, we really should giv hem a chence to make gud on hes promises.

NH.....he was kidding...you mean to tell me you don't sense sarcasm?

[ToUtahNow]

Mark; You are just a funnin us right? If not, aren't you a hard working American? Do you want your wealth redistributed?

(god I hope I spelled that rite, the polize are watchin me)

This is not an endorsement of Obama it is a fact of life. I have said from day one Obama reminds me of Carter which now it seems many others have echoed the same thoughts. I suffered through the Carter years big time because of the redistribution of wealth and I did not care for it.

Today it will not be as hard on me but I will limit both my spending and investing if Obama gets in. The guys I feel really sorry for are the guys who have fledgling business as the don't know what hard times are until the see what it will be like if Obama gets in.

Mark

[Masterplumb]

Well today, when house republicans wanted to stay and hash out an energy bill, Nancy Pelosi shut off the lights and her and the dem's went home for the summer. Where was Barack? As usual a no show.


NHM, Article 2 section 3 of the constitution states (refering to the president)

he may, on extraordinary Occasions, convene both Houses, or either of them, and in Case of Disagreement between them, with Respect to the Time of Adjournment, he may adjourn them to such Time as he shall think proper;

The way I interpret this is that Bush may call (convene) either or both houses as he see's fit. Why not call them into a special session over this?

[ToUtahNow]

NHM, Article 2 section 3 of the constitution states (refering to the president)

he may, on extraordinary Occasions, convene both Houses, or either of them, and in Case of Disagreement between them, with Respect to the Time of Adjournment, he may adjourn them to such Time as he shall think proper;

The way I interpret this is that Bush may call (convene) either or both houses as he see's fit. Why not call them into a special session over this?

Bush already stated he would not call them back but he hoped they would explain to their constituents when they got home why nothing got done.

Mark

[Masterplumb]

Bush already stated he would not call them back but he hoped they would explain to their constituents when they got home why nothing got done.

Mark

I didnt know that. :mad:

I sometimes don't understand that man.

[Frankiarmz]

Bush already stated he would not call them back but he hoped they would explain to their constituents when they got home why nothing got done.

Mark

Can't understand why the President would not force them to finish their business.:smack-head: I heard there was some give and take regarding off shore driling, does anyone know more about the content of this energy bill?I wonder if they were close to passing anything really benefical?

[ToUtahNow]

Can't understand why the President would not force them to finish their business.:smack-head: I heard there was some give and take regarding off shore driling, does anyone know more about the content of this energy bill?I wonder if they were close to passing anything really benefical?

Harry Reed blocked any discussion regarding any drilling (off or on shore) from reaching the floor. The real talk about drilling is by the "Gang of 10" who introduced a Bill which will not be discussed until next month. The "gang of 10" is made up of half Democrats and half Republicans who each gave up a little to find a deal they could live with.

Mark

[NHMaster3015]

Well, of course it's all politicians screwing around while everyone else suffers.

The next sob that tries to redistribute my wealth is going to have to get past a 44 mag first. I've Had enough.

[woodenstickers]

As for electric cars they won't work for me but my brother owns one and I am constantly working on it with him including towing him home more than I care to say.

Mark

I bet over 100 years ago there were a lot of horse drawn buggy owners saying the same thing about the new fangled horseless carriages back when they were developing the same damned technology we use now.


Eli

[woodenstickers]

So while McCain calls for more drilling, and what else again? Here is that lousy tax and spend liberal who can't wait to raise your taxes suggesting a tax raise--wait, tax cut?? To help ease the strain on those who like Frankie are really being hurt in this crisis? Or maybe this is a redistribution of wealth to lazy non-working Americans?

Spin away fellas.

http://www.voanews.com/english/2008-08-01-voa50.cfm?rss=topstories


Eli

[woodenstickers]

Well, of course it's all politicians screwing around while everyone else suffers.

The next sob that tries to redistribute my wealth is going to have to get past a 44 mag first. I've Had enough.

Done and done. Only our current administration did it by pretending to give us our ow