Miele dishwashers

[glkearns]

I installed a miele dishwasher, and there were a few parts that didn't show in their lovely picture book installation instructions, so I decided to give them a jingle to make sure I wasn't missing anything. Turns out all the pieces I had extra were in fact extra, and he told me what they were. Then he told me that in CA miele DW's didn't require an airgap. It took me by surprise, I know they have some sort of backflow prevention, but never heard of such a blanket rule. Needless to say, it got an airgap, but will ask the inspector at final.

Greg

[JCsPlumbing]

Gotta confess, never heard of a Miele dishwasher. :o Highest end I've seen or worked on are Asko or Fisher & Paykel. Some Bosch.

You did the right install though. Or the inspector would make you do it again.;)

J.C.

[drtyhands]

Some cities will let you get away with it.Don't try it in Santa Monica.A few homeowners were pissed because the reason they bought it was to get away from having to put it on their beautiful granite countertop.

[NHMaster3015]

Miele is real high end stuff. Whisper quiet.
The code says - No double trapping, and since the miele and most other dishwashers including the el cheepo ones, take the drain hose, up the side and then down, forming a trap, adding another would be a no no. I have had this conversation with quite a few inspectors and have had to actually show them the piping on the dishwasher as well as the spot in the code book in order to properly educate them.

[PLUMBER RICK]

all the higher end machine have a built in back flow protector built into fill line.

typically they don't require an air gap. but some cities like adam said go overboard.

santa monica is now requiring meter protection on both the domestic and fire. in fact they are removing the meters from the ground and installing them above ground.

have a fancy building that was built in 1995 that is going to require updating.

rick.

[drtyhands]

Miele is real high end stuff. Whisper quiet.
The code says - No double trapping, and since the miele and most other dishwashers including the el cheepo ones, take the drain hose, up the side and then down, forming a trap, adding another would be a no no. I have had this conversation with quite a few inspectors and have had to actually show them the piping on the dishwasher as well as the spot in the code book in order to properly educate them.
I don't understand your point.Where is the siphon break keeping the sink from backflushing into the machine.Would the washing machine hose trap not need a vent through the roof.

[rombo]

Where I live we don't need an air gap just a loop and I have never seen a problem

[ToUtahNow]

I don't understand your point.Where is the siphon break keeping the sink from backflushing into the machine.Would the washing machine hose trap not need a vent through the roof.

In addition the plumbing portion of the dishwasher drain does not start until after the pumped section. At that point it is an indirect waste and must be graded the same as any other drain line. I see a bunch of 7/8" dishwasher hoses where guys have a big belly in them. Not only will the water not drain out of the 7/8" hose but water from the sink gets trapped there as well. The next thing you know the customer is asking why her disposal always smells so bad.

Mark

[drtyhands]

In addition the plumbing portion of the dishwasher drain does not start until after the pumped section. At that point it is an indirect waste and must be graded the same as any other drain line. I see a bunch of 7/8" dishwasher hoses where guys have a big belly in them. Not only will the water not drain out of the 7/8" hose but water from the sink gets trapped there as well. The next thing you know the customer is asking why her disposal always smells so bad.

Mark

A lot of UMMMM "PLUMBERS" use longer hose so they can make the radius from the air gap to the disposal.

TIP...
Store 7/8" hose in a 12" radius bucket.Over a short period of time it will be able to be installed in a tighter radius without kinking.

[ToUtahNow]

A lot of UMMMM "PLUMBERS" use longer hose so they can make the radius from the air gap to the disposal.

TIP...
Store 7/8" hose in a 12" radius bucket.Over a short period of time it will be able to be installed in a tighter radius without kinking.

Here is an example of a poorly installed 7/8" hose. How in the world did the plumber think the dirty water would ever drain out of the hose?

Mark

[DUNBAR]

Anything less than an Air Gap is a direct connection to the waste line.


Prove me wrong.



One punch of a plunger and you've just taken contamination back to a device that produces sterile good for eating/consuming food and liquids.


It might be laxed in your state but on a commercial/industrial front, it's a global code that is strongly enforced.

Less risk in the residential realm? Of course......but remember those homeowners that shouldn't have even a hose clamp in their hands. :scratchhead:


If the device has its own backflow device, it's supposed to accessible for maintaining along with the ability to be free of moving parts (mechanical) which as we all know fails given time, incidental debri, product defect.

[glkearns]

So at best it's a city by city decision. I stand by my decision to keep it in there.

Greg

[PLUMBER RICK]

http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3589&d=1214542302

mark, what did they expect when they installed a badger 1, pressed steel sink with hoodie ring, poly feed lines, price phister pull out, and basket strainer with cadmium s.j. nut.

actually i like the telescoping 2 part waste as i feel it last longer than brass and same with the plastic air gap.

a 3/4'' copper st. 90 usually will clean up the hose sag.

rick.

[DUNBAR]

In my area the builders have figured out how to get around it completely; have the plumber install it correctly,


remove the Air Gap and put in the important soap dispensor the customer wanted....not understanding the value of the Air Gap.


My plumbing inspector days ........someday will have me wearing steel armor to protect me from angry plumbers who think they can skirt the code.

[ToUtahNow]

http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3589&d=1214542302

mark, what did they expect when they installed a badger 1, pressed steel sink with hoodie ring, poly feed lines, price phister pull out, and basket strainer with cadmium s.j. nut.

actually i like the telescoping 2 part waste as i feel it last longer than brass and same with the plastic air gap.

a 3/4'' copper st. 90 usually will clean up the hose sag.

rick.

A competitive built condo with entry level plumbing.

Mark

[DUNBAR]

A competitive built condo with entry level plumbing.

Mark



Which means 1 coffee cup, one saucer, one fork and a butter knife drops the sink an 1/8" down in the center.


And they wonder why the drain lines loosen up on those 59 gauge stainless steel sinks.

[Plumbus]

Mark
Until Miele and the rest of the foreign manufacturers subject their dishwashers to independent testing to prove their backflow devise is foolproof, the code won't change. The UPC requires an airgap, no ifs, ands, or buts. As for the st 90, I use 3/4" copper 90's I pull out of the scrap bin. Even at $3+ a lb. they are still more valuable in use then in the bin.

[DuckButter]

Miele is real high end stuff. Whisper quiet.
The code says - No double trapping, and since the miele and most other dishwashers including the el cheepo ones, take the drain hose, up the side and then down, forming a trap, adding another would be a no no. I have had this conversation with quite a few inspectors and have had to actually show them the piping on the dishwasher as well as the spot in the code book in order to properly educate them.
I dunno if that constitutes a trap, when it comes down to brass taxes a trap weir is s'posed to be no less than 2", no more than 4"...the loop on the side of a DW is a heck of alot more than 4".

The high loop, or air break is to keep backflow into the DW from the basin, a trap is for sewer gas from the sewage system...that wouldn't be considered a trap...at least I don't think so.

Whats odd is the fact that MA has yet to require air gaps on them...to me a simple high loop doesn't seem adequate when it's below flood level.

Heck, I just do what I'm told.

[DuckButter]

all the higher end machine have a built in back flow protector built into fill line.

typically they don't require an air gap. but some cities like adam said go overboard.

santa monica is now requiring meter protection on both the domestic and fire. in fact they are removing the meters from the ground and installing them above ground.

have a fancy building that was built in 1995 that is going to require updating.

rick.
I may be wrong, but I think ALL DW's have them, I can't imagine my states code allowing any without.
Any potable water outlet needs either an air break (gap) above flood level or a backflow prevention/anti-siphon/vacuum breaker - even outside hose bibs require them here.
The air gap/high loop isn't so much for potable supply as it is for the clean dishes sitting in the DW when you come home from snaking a main and wash your hands in a basin full of water.

[Killertoiletspider]

Provide a separate vented trap for the DW and you don't need an air gap.

[MrsSeatDown]

My mom had a Miele dishwasher installed when she re-built her house 15 years ago-no air gap. We recently sold it but it was still holding up. She also installed a Miele stove. They are known for sending extra parts. If you call them and assk for something they will send 2. I guess they figure for what people pay they have to be good to them.:rolleyes:

[ToUtahNow]

My mom had a Miele dishwasher installed when she re-built her house 15 years ago-no air gap. We recently sold it but it was still holding up. She also installed a Miele stove. They are known for sending extra parts. If you call them and assk for something they will send 2. I guess they figure for what people pay they have to be good to them.:rolleyes:

That is good to know.

Thanks-Mark

[Killertoiletspider]

Miele's are excellent DW's, and in my opinion worth their cost, and I have yet to see a clothes washer/dryer combo that comes close to the performance from Miele.

[glkearns]

Excellent product, and excellent tech support, 0 hold time. Amazing. When I build my dream house I will have some Miele products.

Greg

[MrsSeatDown]

Miele's are excellent DW's, and in my opinion worth their cost, and I have yet to see a clothes washer/dryer combo that comes close to the performance from Miele.

I forgot about those. We had one too:) They are QUIET! We had them in our open loft where we had a tv. We didn't even have doors in front of them, they were so quiet.

[Plumbus]

I had a Miele which I put to rest after years of service. Since I could get a deal on a Bosch through a supplier, I bought one as a replacement. Within two weeks, my wife said get rid of it and put in a Miele. So I did. Took the Bosch up to the cabin. (I'm not about to through away $900).
BTW: Has anyone installed a Miele steam oven? PITA. Darned thing has a gravity drain that has to be discharged to an approved waste outlet. I've run them to y branch tail pieces (lucky I had a sink on the floor below in both cases). If an inspector were to take a good look at one of these things, I think he would require indirect waste into a floor sink.

[jwd]

Run through a GD, the GD itself is an airgap. The DW line empties into the GD interior which is open to the air unless there's a stopper in. The code issue is the actual height of the gap rather than "what" it is. Since the arigap is there to prevent siphoning waste water into the potable city supply, the gap height has to be great enough that the sink will run over on your floor before it will siphon back into the potable line. Of course the potable supply would also have to lose all head to your sink's height before siphoning could occur.

JWD