Joining Copper in Today's Market

[RIDGID Dave]

Given the current economic trends, I was wondering if more or less businesses are joining copper with Press Tools. It would stand to reason that the increase in copper prices justifies spending money on tools that help speed up the process. Is this true? Is more Pressing being done this year over last year? Please tell me your thoughts! Thanks.

[Masterplumb]

Given the current economic trends, I was wondering if more or less businesses are joining copper with Press Tools. It would stand to reason that the increase in copper prices justifies spending money on tools that help speed up the process. Is this true? Is more Pressing being done this year over last year? Please tell me your thoughts! Thanks.

As a service plumber, I cant justify the cost of the tool. For the amount of sweating I do on the average day it does not make financial sense. Speed is always important but it must make financial sense too. Its not to say that I wouldn't think of using it on my boiler installs, I just am not too familiar with the tool and would like to see more promotions for it in the local supply houses.

[gear junkie]

I think propress is for a niche market. Not many people (at least not my customers) have the need for such a machine. The commercial sector would have more use as they need the repairs done as quickly as possible and have more money to warrant propress's use.

I firmly believe that pex will become the mainstay in American plumbing as copper prices rise. The few companies that have propress will have to market themselves towards copper instalation and repair. Government buildings in this area are getting planned to be plumbed in cpvc if that tells you anything about the decline of copper.

IMO sometimes the faster speed of getting a job done quickly is a turnoff to a customer. Ex; When I get a drain job done in 10 min(actual machine run time) I often hear "is that all it took, I could've done that". I then need to explain about my training, machine costs, business expenses etc. If the customer sees you sweat a little, they feel a little better about paying you what you're worth. If I repaired a pipe in 5 minutes and gave them a big bill to cover the machine and fittings. I would get a little heat as they just see you're there for 5 minutes, why is the bill so high?

[Nevada plumber]

I've thought about buying the tool many times in the past, but so far I have not been able to justify the cost of the tool. I am also a service plumber, and I probably only get my torch off the truck once a day. Roughly 90% of the buildings in my town are single story, plumbed with PEX. There is not a large need for ProPress in my town.

[boillerman]

The few times we've used it for repairs have been commercial. We've been lucky and been able to rent it. Our shop has or is considering it,
but dry ice works enough times to make it hard to justify I think until you get a job that pays a good chunk of it cause there's no other way.

I do see more of it around though. Don't understand it. Is sweating copper getting too hard for plumbers now? I can understand the passing of galvanized and cast for plastic, but someday everyone will think they can be a plumber cause there won't be any special skill needed:rolleyes:

[plumberscrack]

I'm with Masterplumb on this one. Maybe when heating season kicks in and we are flooded with boiler replacements then I can justify the cost. If it helps me get a normal 2 day install down to a 1 day install then I can see the benefit. Some guys have trouble soldering pipe over 1" with water in the line.

We also do a lot of water meter change outs for the water authority so there could be some cost savings there as well

Maybe this year will be the year :)

[garager]

Only the old timers around here are still sweating.....

[MrsSeatDown]

I'm with Masterplumb on this one. Maybe when heating season kicks in and we are flooded with boiler replacements then I can justify the cost. If it helps me get a normal 2 day install down to a 1 day install then I can see the benefit. Some guys have trouble soldering pipe over 1" with water in the line.

We also do a lot of water meter change outs for the water authority so there could be some cost savings there as well

Maybe this year will be the year :)

Crack, what happened? You were drooling over the propress at the roundup.:confused:

Garager, my old timer is using the propress:p

[PLUMBER RICK]

Crack, what happened? You were drooling over the propress at the roundup.:confused:

Garager, my old timer is using the propress:p


crack was old school at the propress race. he actually used a tape measure to mark and cut his copper:eek:

this was after he just watched me smoke the maze in under 3 minutes:D

remember the purpose of the maze was a timed contest. not a see how perfect it was laid out. if it fit, it was perfect.

joey, who you calling old timer?

remember team geritol was team winner;)

rick.

[ToUtahNow]

Through all of the contests you could tell which guys had worked production and which had not. There is a big difference between a guy who handles pipe a couple service calls per week and a guy who has done it year round. My guess is next year there will be more of a mix of contests. I would also like to see more training to go along with the contests.

Mark

[gear junkie]

crack was old school at the propress race. he actually used a tape measure to mark and cut his copper:eek:

this was after he just watched me smoke the maze in under 3 minutes:D

remember the purpose of the maze was a timed contest. not a see how perfect it was laid out. if it fit, it was perfect.

joey, who you calling old timer?

remember team geritol was team winner;)

rick.
Crack had the original concept right and I wish we were all required to do that. When I suggested the contest it was to test our knowledge of pipe layout and soldering to see the best plumber.

This thread has gone so off track. I bet the Ridgid guys and gals are shaking their heads in fustration as they read this. They'll think twice before they ask us a serious question again.

[MrsSeatDown]

Ridgid Dave was the guy in the Propress room at the roundup;) He was aware of what he was getting himself into:D

[PLUMBER RICK]

Given the current economic trends, I was wondering if more or less businesses are joining copper with Press Tools. It would stand to reason that the increase in copper prices justifies spending money on tools that help speed up the process. Is this true? Is more Pressing being done this year over last year? Please tell me your thoughts! Thanks.

dave, i would have to say there is growth out here.

2 years ago, all my local supply house had to special order, bring in the fittings. today they all have a decent inventory of fittings in stock.

i do know that the hand full of guys that i see buying the fittings are either repipe guys or t.i. guys.

i also know a friend of mine just bought a propress and he does service and repipes. along with another friend that does just service.

remember out here, pex is in the minority for right now.

rick.

[spodelee]

I firmly believe that pex will become the mainstay in American plumbing as copper prices rise. The few companies that have propress will have to market themselves towards copper instalation and repair. Government buildings in this area are getting planned to be plumbed in cpvc if that tells you anything about the decline of copper.

I agree - in the long haul copper is done. Heck, copper is getting so expensive and lucrative to sell as scrap that we are considering installing copper condensate drains on a/c units (commercial installs only and required by code here), calling for inspection, and then replacing with PVC after the inspection. Otherwise the drains will be stolen within weeks of installation. I see propress in the retrofit market where copper already exists and pex or other alternatives everywhere else.

BTW - I had a competitor tell me a couple of years ago that they were buying a new truck with proceeds from copper scrap :rolleyes:. We started recycling immediately thereafter and last year my company grossed over 25k scrapping out old air conditioners and old pipe.

Wipe out China and copper/steel might have a chance.

[FINER9998]

boilerman....what does the dry ice comment refer to?

[PLUMBER RICK]

boilerman....what does the dry ice comment refer to?

dry ice is nothing more than co2. it's -109 degrees. this will allow you to wrap it around the pipe with rags to allow it to freeze the water in the pipe. allowing for repairs without shutting off the water.

it's a poor mans pipe freezing kit.

i have the co2 kits that inject the co2 into what looks like blood pressure cuffs. this is done with liquid co2 tanks/ siphon tanks. you wrap the proper cuff around the line and use the proper timing sequence to inject and pack the dry ice around the stagnant water. the pipe can't have flow or it will never freeze.

i also have the 2000 and 2500 ridgid superfreeze units that circulate freon through the aluminum heads. the superfreeze 2000 will do up to 1.5'' copper and the 2500 will do up to 2.5'' copper.

i prefer the superfreeze as it's easy to plug in and you never run out of co2.

combine the superfreeze with propress and you'll be the coolest kid on the block:cool:

nothing like having to solder when you just froze a pipe.

rick.

[RIDGID Dave]

Interesting stuff fellas. It's always fun to ask a question on this Forum!

I suppose the follow-up question for those of you who own press tools becomes: Are you using them more or less than last year? I'm also wondering how many of your calls require it. For example, in ten jobs that involve copper/stainless, how many of them involve ProPress?

Again, thanks for your input. You guys are the best!

[HVAC HAWK]

in the last 3yrs i have used copper pipe very little ,now this is commercial HVAC work .we now are doing a lot of heat pumps with cooling towers and geothermal so all the piping is sec80 pvc .
on 2 big jobs i just did 1 plumber soldered his pipes and the other used propress
so if the plumber can sell a copper job they will otherwise they will use other types of piping if they have a choice .

if i had a choice to use copper or sec80 pvc i would use copper ,i hate pvc for heating pipes

[NHMaster3015]

Dave, We've had a pro press on the shop shelf for about two years now. Got talked into purchasing it at a trade show. It works fine, we have no problems with the tool itself. There are really only three problems with the whole system. # 1, The tool is really expensive and having to buy one for each truck is cost prohibitive. I have to justify the cost against productivity and we just don't do that much copper work anymore. # 2, the fittings are very expensive, should be handled with care, and can be hard to get. # 3, Most of us are going to pex as copper prices continue to rise.

I have used the tool for repair work a few times, and it's great if there's water in the pipe, but a set of Jet Swett tools is a whole lot less expensive and works just as well.

On the whole I suspect that it's a technology that just came on the market at the wrong time.

[HVAC HAWK]

now ridgid should come up with a hand held PVC pipe fusion device :D

[wrongler]

When I was working with a commercial company back in Pennsylvania, we used the propress on 4" copper water mains. Now that I do basically all service work, the only time it would be of use is for waterheater replacements. But again, the cost of fittings is high.It also seems like every copper leak I run into I can barely reach with my torch let alone a propress. Heck, Pex crimpers are often too big...

[PLUMBER RICK]

now ridgid should come up with a hand held PVC pipe fusion device :D

funny as you mentioned this.

years ago ridgid did sell a hdpe fusion kit. i don't remember if it was socket or butt:kma:

kind of like at cedar point when i snuck up behind you:love:

rick.

i did ask if they had plans to bring back this equipment:rolleyes:

[PLUMBER RICK]

i use propress whenever i get the opportunity. i have a good inventory of fittings up to 2'' and a selective inventory from 2.5''- 4''.

the ease and speed of working with propress is amazing.

as if you didn't notice at the roundup.:D

rick.

[gear junkie]

I have used the tool for repair work a few times, and it's great if there's water in the pipe, but a set of Jet Swett tools is a whole lot less expensive and works just as well.


Just got my new 1/2-2 set in today. Replacing 4-2", 3- 1 1/2" tommorrow at 0500. I'm sure it'll get used then.

[gear junkie]

dry ice is nothing more than co2. it's -109 degrees. this will allow you to wrap it around the pipe with rags to allow it to freeze the water in the pipe. allowing for repairs without shutting off the water.

it's a poor mans pipe freezing kit.


How does this work and how do you make it? I might need to know this when I'm stuck in BFE trying to fix something.

[PLUMBER RICK]

How does this work and how do you make it? I might need to know this when I'm stuck in BFE trying to fix something.

first off, you only use this method when you need to isolate the water and can't shut off the entire system. it also requires that there be no flow on the line you're trying to freeze. if there's flow, no go:D

get some dry ice and some towels. you will need to break the dry ice back down to a snow cone of ice. you then take the towels and hand pack the shredded dry ice around the pipe that you want to freeze. pack the ice tight around the pipe and wrap it with a towel. let if sit and you should see a frost line around the pipe/ towel if it is freezing. a squirt bottle will also help to see if it frozen next to the towel.

if it's frozen, then test the line by opening a faucet and see if the water is truly off.

once again it's risky when you don't have the proper tools. also it's really used in areas where you can't shut off the system. such as hospitals, schools and similar situations.

just have the navy seals order a superfreeze for you;)

rick.

[HVAC HAWK]

kind of like at cedar point when i snuck up behind you:love:

rick.



keep it up rick and i may have to make a road trip to the west cost and give you a big :canoodle: :hug: :dance:

[gear junkie]

Just got my new 1/2-2 set in today. Replacing 4-2", 3- 1 1/2" tommorrow at 0500. I'm sure it'll get used then.
Got done in 4 hours total time on project. I think with a propress I would've been there 30 minutes. Oh well, one day I'll be able to afford the nice toys.