Product Reliability Concerns

[DUNBAR]

Thursday I stopped in at a supply house and caught my delta rep, in the act, fondling what looked like :confused: why are you thinking dirty thoughts right now, shame on you!



He was fondling what was the "new" design of all delta faucets that are single handle.


Prepare yourselves for this....

All plastic, fuse welded PEX supply lines that are built into a base plate design.

Now HOW are you going to flex those lines to reach your valves and HOW are you going to keep those from kinking, let alone not getting cut when in contact with the cutouts for stainless steel? Hmmmm???!!!

Anyway, they are going to eliminate the pivot ball assembly, the camber and seat cups and springs.

All gone, no more. Just one neat looking clear assembly that looks like something Wolverine Brass would make that is the use of ceramc surface against a diamond smooth finish.


Me and two guys behind the counter tore into this guy about pricing, reliability, the repair costs now, everything.

The reason for all this is because in CA or whereever, they are enacting a code where absolutely no lead will be found in plumbing materials.

He mentioned CA so I guess that's where it all starts and they stated they have to comply to this standard.

IF, and a big IF.....if the PEX tube gets damaged, or the connector plate leaks for whatever reason because the cartridge isn't mating with the rest, the faucet is junk.

I can promise you right now, this will not be a faucet that will see 30 years like the older versions,

this is a product that's designed intentionally to fail soon enough. Those PEX lines will be pulled or bent into positions that will either kink at the base or even better, collapse given the varying angles and locations where the end user will try to move them to.



Delta, once again you are leaving something that's worked for years, all to have a product that will have a history of following the heap of cheap.

[MrsSeatDown]

When you mention lead and CA, it makes me wonder if it has anything to do with large amounts of lead found in school water fountains. There was a report on it years ago and apparently the schools did nothing about it. Within the last six months there was a huge news expose on it. I wonder if this was part of the agreed upon solution.

It can all be coincidental too.

[Service Guy]

I used to like delta, but this news is disappointing.

I am a Kohler man all the way. Excellent products in today's market. Beautiful and well-built.

[spodelee]

Thursday I stopped in at a supply house and caught my delta rep, in the act, fondling what looked like :confused: why are you thinking dirty thoughts right now, shame on you!



He was fondling what was the "new" design of all delta faucets that are single handle.


Prepare yourselves for this....

All plastic, fuse welded PEX supply lines that are built into a base plate design.

Now HOW are you going to flex those lines to reach your valves and HOW are you going to keep those from kinking, let alone not getting cut when in contact with the cutouts for stainless steel? Hmmmm???!!!

Anyway, they are going to eliminate the pivot ball assembly, the camber and seat cups and springs.

All gone, no more. Just one neat looking clear assembly that looks like something Wolverine Brass would make that is the use of ceramc surface against a diamond smooth finish.


Me and two guys behind the counter tore into this guy about pricing, reliability, the repair costs now, everything.

The reason for all this is because in CA or whereever, they are enacting a code where absolutely no lead will be found in plumbing materials.

He mentioned CA so I guess that's where it all starts and they stated they have to comply to this standard.

IF, and a big IF.....if the PEX tube gets damaged, or the connector plate leaks for whatever reason because the cartridge isn't mating with the rest, the faucet is junk.

I can promise you right now, this will not be a faucet that will see 30 years like the older versions,

this is a product that's designed intentionally to fail soon enough. Those PEX lines will be pulled or bent into positions that will either kink at the base or even better, collapse given the varying angles and locations where the end user will try to move them to.



Delta, once again you are leaving something that's worked for years, all to have a product that will have a history of following the heap of cheap.

We are seeing the same thing on the HVAC side. Manufacturers are building everything to a disposable standard. Fits right into today's disposable society. Manufacturers have figured out that long term product quality doesn't really matter anymore because with good marketing, they can sell anything! Plus, people forget or move-on in 5-8 years anyway. Just junk, junk, junketie junk

:soapbox:

Great for service companies though!

:D

[spodelee]

When you mention lead and CA, it makes me wonder if it has anything to do with large amounts of lead found in school water fountains. There was a report on it years ago and apparently the schools did nothing about it. Within the last six months there was a huge news expose on it. I wonder if this was part of the agreed upon solution.

It can all be coincidental too.

Nagh, I don't buy the lead excuse. It's about making the product cheaper and every other manufacturer will soon follow.

[DuckButter]

We are seeing the same thing on the HVAC side. Manufacturers are building everything to a disposable standard. Fits right into today's disposable society. Manufacturers have figured out that long term product quality doesn't really matter anymore because with good marketing, they can sell anything! Plus, people forget or move-on in 5-8 years anyway. Just junk, junk, junketie junk

:soapbox:

Great for service companies though!

:D
Removed a 16 yr old State water heater last year.
You won't see a State heater last that long again.

[Tyman]

That is terrible news, we stock and install Delta. I bet we change to another brand.:cool:

While blaming California sounds nice I would bet the volatility in the metal market and profit has more to do with it.

[NHMaster3015]

I have an entire case of Phoenix faucets at the shop. They are totally plastic. Not one single piece of metal on them except for the two screws that hold the handles on. they cost wholesale $ 2.65 ( I got them free ) The funny thing is, they actually work and look pretty good. I think you are going to start finding a whole lot more faucets coming through with either pex or pex adaptors already installed on them.

[Masterplumb]

I used to like delta, but this news is disappointing.

I am a Kohler man all the way. Excellent products in today's market. Beautiful and well-built.

The thing I dont like about Kohler faucets is their braided supply lines that cant be removed. When I install a pedestal sink I like to use ridgid basin supplies.

[DUNBAR]

I have an entire case of Phoenix faucets at the shop. They are totally plastic. Not one single piece of metal on them except for the two screws that hold the handles on. they cost wholesale $ 2.65 ( I got them free ) The funny thing is, they actually work and look pretty good. I think you are going to start finding a whole lot more faucets coming through with either pex or pex adaptors already installed on them.



That's a blast from the past.


I installed 2 handle kitchen sink and lav faucets that were made by Phoenix back in 1985.

I used them solely for the poor folks; if they couldn't afford $14 for the faucet and my charges of $38/hour......something really wrong with them.

Yep, I was el-cheapo plumber back in 85'. Eeeeeeeeeeverybody calling me....I was the idiot giving out the cheap services. Idiot! :smack-head:

[DUNBAR]

When you mention lead and CA, it makes me wonder if it has anything to do with large amounts of lead found in school water fountains. There was a report on it years ago and apparently the schools did nothing about it. Within the last six months there was a huge news expose on it. I wonder if this was part of the agreed upon solution.

It can all be coincidental too.

Don't know but he referenced to some statute that is in CA referring to lead and it's final removal.


Wouldn't be easy just to not use lead in the damn soldered connections? Noooooooooo that wouldn't be prudent.


I swear, this assembly looks as bad as it sounds, really.

Calcium is horrible on these parts and it's like anything else plastic........

when it ages it gets hard and brittle. You won't be doing rebuilds on these faucets that get any mileage in years...I just don't see it happening.


Just look at Delta's products now. Chrome plastic bodies, no chrome on brass.


The guy swore up in down that delta is not going to touch their shower valve bodies, Do you really believe that? I can see that being plastic someday as well.

[NHMaster3015]

That's a blast from the past.


I installed 2 handle kitchen sink and lav faucets that were made by Phoenix back in 1985.

I used them solely for the poor folks; if they couldn't afford $14 for the faucet and my charges of $38/hour......something really wrong with them.

Yep, I was el-cheapo plumber back in 85'. Eeeeeeeeeeverybody calling me....I was the idiot giving out the cheap services. Idiot! :smack-head:
A local mobile home supply went tits up and gave me cases of lav faucets, tub faucets and even plastic lavs. I turned around and donated them to the school. They are great for the kids because you just don't give a crap when they break them.:D

[JCsPlumbing]

I'd be REALLY surprised if they changed their tub/shower valves to plastic bodied. For one, they just changed everything over to their universal valve system. Brass body with cartridge. Great system in my opinion. Makes it alot easier when a customer wants that special color trim.

Plus with a hidden valve behind a wall being plastic they would be looking at alot of potential lawsuits. AND WE WOULD ALSO. The valve would fracture and Delta-in turn-would blame the installer saying they tightened something too much.

I'll quit before I have to put in a plastic bodied tub/shower valve.

J.C.

[APHCO]

That is terrible news, we stock and install Delta. I bet we change to another brand.:cool:

Any ideas on another brand? Other than Kohler!

Maybe Delta is looking to sell these all plastic faucets to the big box home stores and market the real fausets through real plumbing contractors... OK just kidding. :)

[Tyman]

We have been giving Wolverine Brass a shot. We recently purchased a few single handle lav. faucets, single handle & two tub/shower faucets.

I have seen mixed reviews on W.B., so I'm not holding my breath. We are also not considering Kohler due to the massive amount of repair parts we would have to stock, although I think they have nice designs.

Today I put in a customer supplied Price Phister aka Black and Decker tub/shower valve in. It clogged up almost immediately and I had to take it apart and clean it. The ports are very small.

I know Delta has been downsizing their plant here in Indiana big time.

[DUNBAR]

We have been giving Wolverine Brass a shot. We recently purchased a few single handle lav. faucets, single handle & two tub/shower faucets.

I have seen mixed reviews on W.B., so I'm not holding my breath. We are also not considering Kohler due to the massive amount of repair parts we would have to stock, although I think they have nice designs.

Today I put in a customer supplied Price Phister aka Black and Decker tub/shower valve in. It clogged up almost immediately and I had to take it apart and clean it. The ports are very small.

I know Delta has been downsizing their plant here in Indiana big time.



Always remember that when you install a WB faucet, neither you or the homeowner will ever get repair parts locally. That locks them up completely from ever getting the faucet fixed, unless of course you have the parts in stock. Otherwise it is a waiting game because WB won't even sell to supply houses here.

Many many of times I've removed WB faucets solely because the customer didn't want the last guy who put it in because it kept the homeowner from working on it themselves.






I've been to that plant, years ago when I was in the apprenticeship.

They showed us the big machines that were brought in from Germany that bored the brass billets into valve bodies for the 600 series and all single handled faucets in 3 seconds. Pretty amazing.


Totally gave another perspective to more than just the install and repair side of the product...seeing how it's actually made was pretty damn cool.

[bacskcah]

The company I work for has used Delta for all our faucets and shower valves for three or four years now. They have been great but lately, I don't know. I always thought Delta was great from a service stand point with common universal parts. It seems like every time I open the box there's more plastic and less brass. If they do away with the seats and springs and switch over to kohler type cartridges...I don't know maybe it's time to look at Moen again.

[Chauncey]

Here use Gerber faucets. Very popular here in NY. Everbody has parts for them. The ceramic stems are great.

[DuckButter]

Been meaning to get back to this thread.

Has anyone else heard anything about this change with Delta?

I asked one of my suppliers about it this week, he just looked at me like I have two heads and told me there's no possible way this is true...said he talks to the Delta rep several times a week and he'd have mentioned this.

[boillerman]

I haven't heard of it, but I only use Delta for my own customers. Our shop uses mostly American Standard. I used to hate AS but really I can't complain, they've been pretty good valves. Back in the day of 1225 cartridges I liked Moen, but they've got too many cheap valves out now.

I generally pass on installing plastic faucets. Never could feel good about the water connection when I left. Now w/ flex supplies, I've thought about reconsidering that stance, but still haven't...just can't quite bring myself to do it. I'm trying. Maybe if they sign a waiver.

[DUNBAR]

I'm going to see if I can get what I saw....or see if that plumbing supply house was given some for reference.


I'm tellin ya, gonna be pissed when you see it. It looks like something that's a throw away from the start.


That same rep goes to all the supply houses I deal with so maybe he left the product there.


Reminds me of a WB contraption all the way.

[wrench spinner]

I still keep in touch with one of my buddies that is a counter guy at my supply house and he actullay brought these up the other night when he was over. He just commented on the diamond impregnated ceramic discs. He didnt mention anything about the pex supply lines that i recall but shots were fired so i cant vouch for my coherentness. He said that the the reason for the change is the chemisty of our drinking water. It is becoming more acidic and the change in the materials are supposed to be more resistant to fouling. Although i must say I wouldnt want to use plastic cheap flimsy parts on something as hands on as a faucet. I mean how many faucets made of METAL have been mangled by an overzealous homeowner with a gorilla grip!

[DuckButter]

I'm going to see if I can get what I saw....or see if that plumbing supply house was given some for reference.


I'm tellin ya, gonna be pissed when you see it. It looks like something that's a throw away from the start.


That same rep goes to all the supply houses I deal with so maybe he left the product there.


Reminds me of a WB contraption all the way.

I know you dislike Kohler, but...hehehe...I betcha they're starting to look a lil' better n better.

[DUNBAR]

I know you dislike Kohler, but...hehehe...I betcha they're starting to look a lil' better n better.


For about 4 pounds of brass that they are....yes, for scrap value! lol


Seems like people love those Forte' kitchen sink faucets. They look nice but if you put them on a stainless steel sink, forget about them being sturdy.

That deck mount has to be rock solid, otherwise the faucet is flimsy in its use.


I hate searching for parts though; Delta is very reasonable on finding old parts for their faucets........if only they'd stay with precious metals. :(

[DuckButter]

For about 4 pounds of brass that they are....yes, for scrap value! lol


Seems like people love those Forte' kitchen sink faucets. They look nice but if you put them on a stainless steel sink, forget about them being sturdy.

That deck mount has to be rock solid, otherwise the faucet is flimsy in its use.


I hate searching for parts though; Delta is very reasonable on finding old parts for their faucets........if only they'd stay with precious metals. :(

Did a Forte two weeks ago, yup...on a SS basin and yup...the faucet was sturdy as all get up, beyond the fact that the basin wobbled.
Customer picked it up at Ferguson...I was off the hook.
They're a gem on Granite or corian.

[DUNBAR]

I actually like the look, that tall bottle look is pretty cool....



but I haven't had to get a callback for a leak through the spout, or a leak coming down through the bottom into the sink base. :jumping:

[NHMaster3015]

Did a Forte two weeks ago, yup...on a SS basin and yup...the faucet was sturdy as all get up, beyond the fact that the basin wobbled.
Customer picked it up at Ferguson...I was off the hook.
They're a gem on Granite or corian.

I don't understand why someone would put a $200.00 faucet on a $30.00 sink, but it happens all the time.

I just saw the new Delta faucet also. It looks to me like they are trying to cut manufacturing costs. Probably to compete with Glacier Bay. Like it or not I'll bet the majority of faucets sold are now sold through HD and Lowes and since most homeowners either dont know what a quality faucet is or for that matter care, Delta has decided to cater to the diy crowd. If this is going to be a trend in Delta's designs then I'm going to have to switch to something else, probably Kohler.

[Masterplumb]

Maybe it's time to give Gerber a try. They dont sell to the big boxes and sell only to professionals.

http://www.gerberonline.com/Profile.aspx

[Herk]

I like Gerbers and actually have a Gerber pull-out for my own kitchen faucet.

My "budget" faucet is Peerless. Brass body, ceramic stems. Cheap. Compared to most of what I see people buying for themselves, it's higher quality.

It's hard for me to like Kohler. I've had far too many issues with them, from leaks out of brand new cartridges to plastic bits breaking on the rack in the shop. Weren't they about the first ones to use a plastic faucet body?

I had a Kohler shower valve last year that wouldn't stop leaking. I replaced the parts and the thing sang like a blender when running. I'm guessing a problem with the body itself, but the snooty babe wouldn't let me back in to work on it - she was always leaving town. Maybe someday she'll move out and I can get the thing fixed.

In commercial, I think Kohler is fine. They'd have to improve their parts search before I got to liking them for residential.

[DuckButter]

I don't understand why someone would put a $200.00 faucet on a $30.00 sink, but it happens all the time.

I just saw the new Delta faucet also. It looks to me like they are trying to cut manufacturing costs. Probably to compete with Glacier Bay. Like it or not I'll bet the majority of faucets sold are now sold through HD and Lowes and since most homeowners either dont know what a quality faucet is or for that matter care, Delta has decided to cater to the diy crowd. If this is going to be a trend in Delta's designs then I'm going to have to switch to something else, probably Kohler.

The whole thing is kinda interesting, in a pathetic kinda way.

The trade seems to be evolving whether we like it or not....always has, always will.
You may recall maybe 15 or 20 years ago there was an inspector in MA that would wait in the parking lot of the local HD and question individuals walking out with plumbing fixtures as to who the plumber was that was installing it.
Everyone thought he was some kinda jerk...I betcha not so many do now with HD trying to get their mits on every aspect of our trade and monopolize it.

HD complained and he was asked to stop, BUT...I have a friend who went to HD for the bennies, he's licensed.
He tells me the local inspector stops in to check that the store has a licensed guy on duty...apparently MA requires a licensed electrician & plumber on the floor now...I assume for anyone that sells plumbing stock or fixtures.

As for the catering to DIY cheapies...it's all good for us...more work, more service down the road.
I think it may increase the demand for plumbers in the near future.
Thank you HGTV, Lowes, Home Depot & "Flip that house"...we appreciate the investment.

You can do it, we can help!

[DUNBAR]

Just got off the phone with a representative from Delta, very nice lady and the phone call lasted almost 30 minutes. We discussed numerous concerns I had and I will say that she knows her product very well.


Without getting too involved right now, (gotta go to work) I will say that they are sending me a faucet that is built exactly as I described to you all in this forum community and they want me to test it.


I asked if they wanted me to video this and they said that it was not necessary but there's no problem in doing so.

But for anyone doubting my statements that I was contacted by not one but two reps, this should quell the notion that I made it up.

The lesson for anyone would be to always gauge what you put in print, it can someday hold you accountable and since I have no qualms of this way of being, I enjoy this moment greatly to be able to work hand in hand with a company that I've been a indirect sales rep for so many years.

Obviously I've got a history of supporting this product and it was known well beforehand.


The supply lines are made of PEX-C. That's all I know at this point.

[NHMaster3015]

Hey Dunbar, have her send me one too. If there's a quality issue my boys will find out soon enough.:D

[JCsPlumbing]

Isn't PEX-C the lowest grade of PEX?

J.C.

[Nevada plumber]

I've always heard that PEX A, B, and C is not a ranking system, but refers to the process used to make the pipe. That being said, I like Wirsbo (PEX-A) the best, fallowed by Viega (PEX-B) next. I personally have never used PEX-C.

[DUNBAR]

Hey Dunbar, have her send me one too. If there's a quality issue my boys will find out soon enough.:D



The faucet came in yesterday to the shop. It's actually quite a large box, kind of weighty for an all plastic faucet.


Probably double-boxed I'm sure but my intentions are to video the opening of the contents so you all can see the new style I spoke of.

[boillerman]

I was told by our Delta dealer that a couple lines have this, but most are and will not be. What do they know though?

[ovruigo]

Removed a 16 yr old State water heater last year.
You won't see a State heater last that long again.

Barely missed the dip tube catastrophe.

[boillerman]

I'm replacing a 14 year old BW Friday. Tanks still good but blower's burned up. Fortunately they have two cause it's an hour drive.:rolling-eyes2:

[DUNBAR]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmlJJ7Jtta0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYbYWDpEOyI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDYdxCLgWnQ

[JCsPlumbing]

Looks like some brass parts. Thought it would be "Glacier Bayish".

J.C.

[Aaron91]

I'd be pissed putting that faucet in, and having all that extra supply line just dangling down in the cabinet below.

I can see a large pump style bottle getting caught on one or both of the supply lines and causing ****.

[DUNBAR]

I reread my first post, the start of this thread and there's something worth me saying now that I have product in hand.



The long PEX supplies is not what was in my hands at the supply house so that is an improvement, unless the shorter style was for lavatory faucets.

Long loops is great as far as undo strain on the supply lines. Too often hard bends/jagged turns is what makes plastic rupture/crease or snap off.

The bonnet nut is now plastic. It would be advised that those fine threads be greased with a non-petroleum based lubricant because there are no cuts on the top for a wrench to take it off.

From what I see, and I haven't tried anything to change it....but I'm pretty sure the tubing is permanently bent in a 8"-11" radius for the dimensions of the box it was placed in. I don't think you could get too aggressive in changing the curve and relax to a different shape.


The faucet has a long shaft to go into any sink deck which will avoid the issue of the stainless steel "cutting" into the lines as it passes through. This was a lack of information before I made the statement.

The fused points where the 3 tubes come together are way up inside the faucet, thus preventing a sharp strain right at the point where the plate connects as the mating surface for the cartridge assembly.

Given that a hard strain would be hard to break them so high up inside, this would almost lead to improper installation/workmanship that would hold the product not responsible.

One thing I noticed was the connection to the flexible line for the pull-out spout.

It's no longer brass, the piece coming down is no longer brass. It is entirely plastic and there is a plastic "cup" that slides onto the O-ringed stubout of the body. A plastic push clip like before holds this connection together. Given that cup acts just like a female adaptor all the way, and the constant daily movement from the user pulling up and down on that flex line...That plastic connection is going to crack, given how thin. I could be wrong but I'm used to that being brass.


I cannot comment on the new style cartridge because there hasn't been years of use in all types of water conditions, how it reacts to sudden dirt scurries in the line. It looks like a sealed assembly with no way to clean it, just replace.....?


I'd like to know how much that cartridge is.......what I'm encountering if I do a simple rebuild on one of these faucets, turn the water supply back on to find out 3 to 4 weeks later another piece of calcium or dirt made it into the assembly and since I can't clean it......do I chuck another cartridge in?

On the ball assemblies with the seat cups and springs, you could easily see the debri buildup and if it lodged between the ball and seat cup, the seat cup would tear and leak profusely, making sure that the faucet had to be fixed in order to operate.


With american standard and numerous other faucets going to this sealed cartridge assembly, it goes from "I got those simple repair parts on the truck" to "I have to now carry these specific parts for this style faucet" in an unkind way.

I've never complained about having to stock the pressure balanced cartridge assembly for the 1300-1500 series Delta but now that I'm installing the R10000 valve body, I now have to stock two different types of this cartridge and neither is exactly cheap.

I've been able to obtain the old style PB cartridges for a low as $21 apiece if I bought 12. Thank goodness for what I'm aware of, nobody has tried to sell a cheaper "knockoff" copycat of this device.

I'm also curious to know if that orange colored large seal will be separately sold to plumbing supply houses on that cartridge as well.



When I get answers from Delta I'll follow up to this thread.

[lovetheUSA]

I assume most folks are familiar with the California Proposition 65....that is the lead thing, and it does tie the manufacturer's hands. Since approximately 1/10 the entire population of the US lives in California, then like it or not California influences the whole market.