Shower and spigot both on

[PeterPeterPeter]

Re: Moen bath tub spigot and shower head

Hello,

We have a dilemma in our bathroom. Our renovator is working on our bathroom and he is near the final stages after putting in tile all around and up the wall of our tub. The problem is whenever we turn on the water to fill up our tub; it comes out of the shower head as well as the spigot. If you turn down the pressure (ie. Amount of water coming through) it will only come out of the spigot.

We tried:


We thought the spigot hole was to small so we unscrewed it and let the same thing happened


Put a inch wide pipe leading into the spigot to see if this would decrease back pressure…same thing happened


Decreased the flow of water to the tub by turning down the shutoffs below….if the water pressure was halved, it only came out of the spigot. But this would take a long time to fill up our tub.


Put in a new cartridge in the controller…same problem

We have never had this problem before. Our previous shower was hooked up to the spigot below from a hose into a wand. The piping leading to the new shower head has all been done by our renovator. Could he have done something wrong here? He claims that there actually is no control to the shower head that the water wants to (usually) only go the spigot and he can’t figure out why it’s going to both. The spigot has a knob you can lift that can make the water go to the shower head.

Ideas?

[garager]

Replace the spigot.... :D

[Service Guy]

Someone had this same problem before, here. The water pressure may be too high in the house. Have it checked with a pressure-gauge. Also I have heard that pex piping is so slippery that this will happen sometimes if the shower-riser is piped in pex pipe.

[plumberscrack]

Read the installation instructions for the tub/shower valve. It may have been designed to use a twin ell behind the tub spout.

PEX piping too slippery? :scratchhead:

[TOPDAWG]

What type of valve is it? Is it a Moentrol or a Posi-temp valve? Are the Hot markings on the left and the cold on the right when looking at it? Maybe the installer being a renovator and not a plumber may have put the valve in upside down? Being a Moen there are only a few things that could be wrong and most times when the cartridge is replaced it take care of the problem? I would also pull the cartridge back out and look to see if the bottom port is blocked with something!

[Devine Plumbing]

There is a plastic assembly in the valve body which directs the flow of water downwards on some of the older valve bodies. Possibly left out or damaged when installing. Possibly the valve was even put in upside down. Is the raised bump (for lack of a better term) on the cover tube facing upwards?

[DuckButter]

Read the installation instructions for the tub/shower valve. It may have been designed to use a twin ell behind the tub spout.

PEX piping too slippery? :scratchhead:
:rotflmao1::rotflmao1:

[Service Guy]

Yes, pex has less friction than copper. Or so I have heard.

[NHMaster3015]

Yep...She's a Moen. My Favorite T\S Valve in the whole wide world.:rolling-eyes2:

[plumberjr]

would you let your landscaper replace your roof???? hopefully not--this is all to familiar in ohio--a drywall/carpenter that CAN do some plumbing work when he is hurting for cash-------you need to call a reputable plumber and have him look at this and make the repair before the carpenter tells you to deal with it and trys to make you feel sorry for him. plumbing is for plumbers as tile is for tilers--dont want to be harsh but i have been to homes where customers have basically been given the runaround for days then weeks thn months--then ayear or 2 later im jetting a line and they ask" hey- can you take a look at this-my handyman said this is right- but i dont think it is!!!!----call a pro---there could be lots of variables a non pro would not think of ---good luck---let us know
:eek::eek::eek:

[DuckButter]

would you let your landscaper replace your roof???? hopefully not--this is all to familiar in ohio--a drywall/carpenter that CAN do some plumbing work when he is hurting for cash-------you need to call a reputable plumber and have him look at this and make the repair before the carpenter tells you to deal with it and trys to make you feel sorry for him. plumbing is for plumbers as tile is for tilers--dont want to be harsh but i have been to homes where customers have basically been given the runaround for days then weeks thn months--then ayear or 2 later im jetting a line and they ask" hey- can you take a look at this-my handyman said this is right- but i dont think it is!!!!----call a pro---there could be lots of variables a non pro would not think of ---good luck---let us know
:eek::eek::eek:
I missed the detail about the piping being done by the renovator...good call.

[JCsPlumbing]

Yes, pex has less friction than copper. Or so I have heard.

While it may have less friction loss, in this distance it should be so close to copper that it's a canceling factor.

I don't think Moen ever made a valve requiring an aspiration ell. Could be wrong. :rolleyes:

Upside down, maybe.

But I'm willing to be that they don't have the proper distance on the tub drop and/or they used PEX piping on the drop. Being that PEX has insert type fittings it is often enough to cause enough restriction to back up the shower pipe.

IF YOU CALL A PLUMBER YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO THINGS TWICE. :D

J.C.

[TOPDAWG]

If you want to quick fix your problem you can go to Home Depot and get a shower head stop that screws onto the shower head arm and have the WANNA BE PLUMBER RENOVATOR throw it on for you.

[Masterplumb]

If the Moen t/s valve has IPS connection at the tub spout connection you must use brass nipples in certain shower valves. If copper was used you will get these results. Please read the installation instructions.

[PLUMBER RICK]

There is a plastic assembly in the valve body which directs the flow of water downwards on some of the older valve bodies. Possibly left out or damaged when installing. Possibly the valve was even put in upside down. Is the raised bump (for lack of a better term) on the cover tube facing upwards?

i thought it was a copper tube insert. but you got the right call;)

this being a new valve, it's either missing or a very ruff casting that is creating the back pressure.

of course the valve could be upside down:rolleyes:

i don't think moen has any valves that require a twin ell.

if it's not too late, can you replace the valve or install a twin ell and cap the riser at the top port of the valve:confused:

even a speck of solder into the top port can create havoc;)

good call devine;)

rick.

[Devine Plumbing]

Only the first posi-temp valves and the non-pressure balanced valves had the plastic diverter to send the water to the tub spout. The newer valves, there is only one hole facing downwards where the cartridge installs at. The water is forced downwards, and if it has no where to go it returns to the shower through a small V-shaped channel that seems to go around the valve body. My money is on an upside down valve. Guess the word "UP" did not help this guy.

[plumberscrack]

Stub out for tub spout too long and jammed against diverter inside spout?

[PeterPeterPeter]

Thanks for the info..

A common theme seems to be "upside down valve". I assume you mean the divertor behind the handle. I will take a look at this...and perhaps even get a new one as Moen is good for warranties.

If the pressure is decreased, the water does not seem to leak out of the shower head. Also, when I detach the spigot, the same this happens so I don't think the spigot has anything to do with this.

Keep sending your theories!

Peter

[NHMaster3015]

No, the entire valve installed upside down.

[PeterPeterPeter]

Sheesh!

I took the plate cover off under the handle and the divertor has "up" on the up side. It seems like it was installed correctly.

As for replacing the spigot idea...it does the same problem even without a spigot attaced.

I went to Home Depot tonight and got a entire new box...spigot, shower head, divertor, etc...will install these tomorrow.

Cross fingers...

Oh ya, he used flex tubes as well. Hope that's ok.

Peter

[Devine Plumbing]

Flex tubes. Yea that is an excellent idea. Sometimes it is just easier to have it done right the first time. Can you please add a picture. I'm sure all of us would love to see just what you're dealing with.

[Service Guy]

Sheesh!

I took the plate cover off under the handle and the divertor has "up" on the up side. It seems like it was installed correctly.

As for replacing the spigot idea...it does the same problem even without a spigot attaced.

I went to Home Depot tonight and got a entire new box...spigot, shower head, divertor, etc...will install these tomorrow.

Cross fingers...

Oh ya, he used flex tubes as well. Hope that's ok.

Peter

HACK, HACK, HACKITY HACK!:killingme: Next time hire a real plumber.

[PLUMBER RICK]

peter, before you completly cut out the old valve. look into the new one at the shower connection. see how it compares to the exisiting one. is the bypass tube installed in the new one and the old one?

if not maybe a simple fix without removing the entire valve, just the shower riser.

rick.

[Devine Plumbing]

peter, before you completly cut out the old valve. look into the new one at the shower connection. see how it compares to the exisiting one. is the bypass tube installed in the new one and the old one?

if not maybe a simple fix without removing the entire valve, just the shower riser.

rick.

The newer Moen Posi-temp valves do not have that bypass tube. There is no straight connection between the tub spout and the shower. It must travel through the v-shaped brass waterway.

[PLUMBER RICK]

Flex tubes. Yea that is an excellent idea. Sometimes it is just easier to have it done right the first time. Can you please add a picture. I'm sure all of us would love to see just what you're dealing with.

HACK, HACK, HACKITY HACK!:killingme: Next time hire a real plumber.

guys, we don't know what is exactly the issue.

in new construction wood framing, you better have either a corrugated flex or soft copper on your valves or you will shear the pipe as the building shrinks. figure a good 1.5'' of shrinkage on a 3 story wood framed building.

just had a repair on a 20 year old building yesterday and the 1/2'' copper was defiantly tweaked as it was passing through the 2x4. it was not double drilled and the line developed a pin hole next to the joint. this was not a circ line, but a 1/2'' riser for a cold water lav on the second floor of a 3 story building.

we always had to double drill the studs on a horizontal offset. this allowed for the shrinkage and settlement.

of course pex has its own built in flex design.

rick.

[Service Guy]

What? I have done plenty of new construction, and we hard-piped copper to everything...flexes installed on a shower-valve??? They makes these to pass code?

[Devine Plumbing]

guys, we don't know what is exactly the issue.

in new construction wood framing, you better have either a corrugated flex or soft copper on your valves or you will shear the pipe as the building shrinks. figure a good 1.5'' of shrinkage on a 3 story wood framed building.

just had a repair on a 20 year old building yesterday and the 1/2'' copper was defiantly tweaked as it was passing through the 2x4. it was not double drilled and the line developed a pin hole next to the joint. this was not a circ line, but a 1/2'' riser for a cold water lav on the second floor of a 3 story building.

we always had to double drill the studs on a horizontal offset. this allowed for the shrinkage and settlement.

of course pex has its own built in flex design.

rick.

Maybe in LA, so there are no leaks in the shower valve, as the city slides into the ocean when the big one comes. Everything I've ever seen is hard piped in copper to give the valve rigidity in the wall.

[PLUMBER RICK]

earthquakes have nothing to do with shrinkage. the wood is green/ wet when the building is built. the wood will shrink when it dries. the plumbing is installed when the building is being built.

for 15 years i did new construction plumbing. for 15 years we double drilled all horizontal holes in wood framed buildings 3 stories and more.

if the waste was abs plastic, this required expansion joints on anything over 20' of vertical.

earthquakes required sway bracing of any hangers over 18''. along with other seismic restraints on the heaters and equipment.

believe me it's no fun double drilling wood studs for trap arms and water piping. but it was required and still is, unless it's a metal stud building.

rick.

[Devine Plumbing]

Excuse my ignorance, but what do you mean "double drilling"?

[PLUMBER RICK]

Excuse my ignorance, but what do you mean "double drilling"?

typically you would drill a 1.375'' hole for a water line and a second one just above it to create an oval hole. you felt the pipe and lay it on the lower hole. this way as the wood shrinks and the building settles, the pipe has room before the wood stresses the pipe.

of course on waste pipes of 1.5'' or 2'', we would drill a 2 9/16'' hole and another on top to form the oval. if the wall was only 2x4 and we had to get through a load bearing wall, they either furred the wall or we hung the waste on the outside of the drywall and the cabinets covered the dirty arm. this was very typical on a kitchen trap arm with a window or open pony wall on it.

once again this applied to new construction of 3 stories or more. we use to wood frame up to 4 stories plus loft and i remember 1 hotel of 5 stories wood framed.

rick.

[DuckButter]

Sheesh!

I took the plate cover off under the handle and the divertor has "up" on the up side. It seems like it was installed correctly.

As for replacing the spigot idea...it does the same problem even without a spigot attaced.

I went to Home Depot tonight and got a entire new box...spigot, shower head, divertor, etc...will install these tomorrow.

Cross fingers...

Oh ya, he used flex tubes as well. Hope that's ok.

Peter
Um...I thought you had a "renovator" doing the work?

[PeterPeterPeter]

Heh guys...I'm glad I started a semi-new topic here...but back to the original.

I was asked as to how its attached (ie. distributor). It looks like a small "t". That is, hot in, cold in, line out for shower hear, and another line out for spigot. It seems to be attached correctly ("up" is on up side). Flex tubing. Replaced shower head, replaced spigot...not affects. Water still comes out of both. Bought shower stop...but don't want to do that...yet.

Got whole new MOEN shower stuff...will re-install and cross fingers.

Ugh.

Peter

[PeterPeterPeter]

Renovator yes...did he show up today...no

[PeterPeterPeter]

Here are some picts...

-The entire bath area
-Divertor
-MOEN model (new one I got)
-Front flower bed (no reason)

Ideas?

[TOPDAWG]

Here are some picts...

-The entire bath area
-Divertor
-MOEN model (new one I got)
-Front flower bed (no reason)

Ideas?I think JCsplumbing hit the nail on the head. When the pex adapter is installed it reduces to 3/8" at that point and along with the other fittings that are in the wall that we cant see and causing enough restriction to send the water up to the shower head. I would have your Renovator/Plumber rip out all that tile and run the drop in 1/2" Copper.:bash: Or you can try to cut out the valve and replace it with a new one and see if that works for you.

[NHMaster3015]

See that bushing and pex adaptor on the pipe going to the tub spout? You can't do that. Especially with a crap Moen T\S valve. That piece has to be copper because the bushing and the pex adaptor cause bo-cu restriction at that point and that's what is diverting the water. Sorry, but it looks like a hack and wack job. Next time have the psuedo-plumber read the directions.

[boillerman]

I'm not sure about this positemp, but most t/s valves have a built in restrictor on the shower riser so water flows more easily to the tub. I
don't think this one does, but the fittings used obviously created some
restriction in the line to the bottom spout, so some water is being diverted
to the upper line. I'ld take out the bottom line, (look up there w/ a mirror just to make sure nothings in there that shouldn't be) and redo it w/ no restrictions. Make sure the pex isn't pinched or something in the wall too.

[plumberjr]

I HOPE THAT LAST PIC WAS AN ACCIDENT-----TOOL FORUM--GUYS---TOOLS--FLOWERS?????????????????????????????

I WOULD HAVE BOUGHT A BETTER T/S VALVE--LOOKS LIKE YOU GOT THE CHEAPEST ONE HOME DEPOT HAD:eek::eek::eek:

I USE THE MOENTROL VALVES---NEVER HAVE ISSUES

REMEMBER WHAT I SAID YESTERDAY---PLUMBING IS FOR PLUMBERS AS TILE IS FOR TILERS--------PLEASE SAVE YOURSELF THE HEADACHE AND CALL A PLUMBER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!
BUY A GOOD VALVE AND CALL A PLUMBER---
ALSO--THE PEX ADAPTERS ARE DEFINATELY RESTRICTING

IIIIIIIIII HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATE PEX
GO COPPER OR DONT GO AT ALL

[plumberjr]

Also i was told that all moen product at hdepot is made in china--thats why its cheaper and dos not last as long as what a plumber would bring you--i replace lots of home depot faucets and t/s valves that are less than 5-6 years old

remodeler+ hdepot parts= i will be at the house in a few years and you will be complaining about my bill

buy american:):):):):):):)--it is reliable---if it is chinese--it may be a bad cast also---seen that before too

[DuckButter]

All I can say is I wouldn't wanna be the next homeowner.

[PLUMBER RICK]

http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3783&d=1216842989 (http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3783&d=1216842989)

i can understand the valve offset for ease of preadjusting the water temp. but i think your chances of ever installing a shower enclosure is history:banghead:

please explain the 3'' waste line pictured:confused:

a brass nipple is much easier than 2 copper mips for the stub out;)

tile looks nice:)

rick.

[wrench spinner]

http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3783&d=1216842989 (http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3783&d=1216842989)

i can understand the valve offset for ease of preadjusting the water temp. but i think your chances of ever installing a shower enclosure is history:banghead:

please explain the 3'' waste line pictured:confused:

a brass nipple is much easier than 2 copper mips for the stub out;)

tile looks nice:)

rick.


What is up with that stubout too??? Is that a 3/4" x 1/2" Male adapter and C.I. above the ABS? Gentleman I believe that we have a cantidate for the wall of Shame!

[JCsPlumbing]

I think in a desperate attempt to rectify their mistake they installed the 1/2x3/4x1/2 pipe stubout.

They'll probably box in the 3" drop but it's in an awkward place and probably should have been rerouted.

I like the tile. :) Not a fan of Aker tubs. :(

J.C.

[JCsPlumbing]

And the drop appears crooked. :nono:

J.C.

[gear junkie]

What's up with the huge pics?

[PLUMBER RICK]

What's up with the huge pics?

sorry, as i copy and paste.

it makes us have to scroll back and forth. maybe it can be resized to fit?

josh, mark, any help;)

rick.

[PeterPeterPeter]

Update to my dilema....

I replaced the divertor yesterday (yes you can do it without taking apart the wall...just a lot of cursing).

Result...nil...water still comes out of shower and spigot.

So it's not:
spigot
divertor
shower head

plumbing behinf the wall creating pressure issue to spigot?

Ugh!

[Masterplumb]

I think thats what everyone has been saying

[DuckButter]

Posts like this remind me there is an actual value to having a plumber do plumbing.

[Masterplumb]

Posts like this remind me there is an actual value to having a plumber do plumbing.

You man real plumbers don't put Maax tubs in :D?

What is up with the location of the t/s valve?

And the exposed stack next to the tub?

[NHMaster3015]

I don't know how to say this any clearer. YOU CAN'T PIPE THE TUB SPOUT WITH PEX. The pex adaptor is TOO RESTRICTIVE, and forces water back up the shower spout. YOU NEED TO RE-PIPE THE TUB SPOUT. Use copper this time.

[DuckButter]

I don't know how to say this any clearer. YOU CAN'T PIPE THE TUB SPOUT WITH PEX. The pex adaptor is TOO RESTRICTIVE, and forces water back up the shower spout. YOU NEED TO RE-PIPE THE TUB SPOUT. Use copper this time.

I think he's afraid to break the news to the homeowner that he'll have to reopen the wall.

[DuckButter]

You man real plumbers don't put Maax tubs in :D?

What is up with the location of the t/s valve?

And the exposed stack next to the tub?

I missed the fact that it's ABS below CI...someone else pointed that out earlier on the thread.
Not a'tol legal here.

[PeterPeterPeter]

Exposed stack...a shelf going behind it (long story)



Question:
Does flex piping cause this issue (ie. should ahve used copper) or..

Improperly installed piping cause this issue?

???

[PeterPeterPeter]

Copper...

note.
I put a small shutoff on the shower head (no problem)

[DuckButter]

Exposed stack...a shelf going behind it (long story)



Question:
Does flex piping cause this issue (ie. should ahve used copper) or..

Improperly installed piping cause this issue?

???
You've really, really gotta read the replies.

[BAPlumber]

I've always felt the "good plumbing practice" was to give the tub spout the largest ID practical.

[NHMaster3015]

yet another case of a homeowner that does not like the answer.

Sorry, but you screw up, you fix.

[wrench spinner]

Depending upon how thick his walls are framed he may be able to fit a copper drop tub in without opening the wall up. I have been able to do that in the past just solder it up and slide it in. Make sure you use a drop eared elbow, open up the hole for where your stubout will come out to about 1" or 1-1/4" and you can sometimes get some screws in there to secure it..... that is if it was braced correctly which i kind of doubt based upon everything else that was done wrong!

[NHMaster3015]

ain't gonna happen buddy, he's either going to live with it or go with the shower head shutoff rather than fix it right.

[JCsPlumbing]

While it may have less friction loss, in this distance it should be so close to copper that it's a canceling factor.

I don't think Moen ever made a valve requiring an aspiration ell. Could be wrong. :rolleyes:

Upside down, maybe.

But I'm willing to be that they don't have the proper distance on the tub drop and/or they used PEX piping on the drop. Being that PEX has insert type fittings it is often enough to cause enough restriction to back up the shower pipe.

IF YOU CALL A PLUMBER YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO THINGS TWICE. :D

J.C.


Peter, peter, peter. :nono:

J.C.

[plumberscrack]

note.
I put a small shutoff on the shower head (no problem)

Tons of valuable information was just wasted on this thread :thud:

[boillerman]

Tons of valuable information was just wasted on this thread :thud:
Nuff said

[wrench spinner]

Well someone got what they paid for!:loser:

[aDanO]

I agree. Either upside down or in the case of it being a slightly older Positemp model the shower port used to have a small venturi in it and sometimes they fell out in shipment especially in bulk pack. You can tell if it's upside down if the notch on the valve is facing down.

[plumbertim1975]

Here are some picts...

-The entire bath area
-Divertor
-MOEN model (new one I got)
-Front flower bed (no reason)

Ideas?
Your shower riser and tub spout should have been piped in 1/2" copper not pex. As Rick said, you will never be able to install a door because of valve possition. Pex is OK for hot and cold supply.

[lovetheUSA]

If you used PEX or CPVC from the valve to the spout....your installation instructions say NOT to do that, because it will cause this problem.

Also, as mentioned, if the pressure in your house is on the high side, it will tend to do that.

[mtnman1100]

did you try running the water thru the tub spout pipe without the spout attached? Just curious. and all the talk about the pex adaptor in the valve makes sense because the are smaller than the ID of copper pipe.

[mtnman1100]

http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3784&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1216843005 (http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3784&d=1216843005)

Is that gas line teflon tape on the joints? It looks yellow.