Tankless HW heater vs tanked?

[DuckButter]

And your usage habits havent changed one bit.
.:rolleyes:

Here ya go:

Called my water company and got my water consumption usage for the past year or so. As you can see there was no change between the bill I just got and the same time last year. The past few bills prior compared to last year however, they have gone up. I was only on a tankless really for the last bill however.

1970 Sep 08
1790 Jul
1690 May
1530 Mar
1610 Jan
1600 Nov 07
1970 Sep
1720 Jul
1410 May

Edit:

So I can pretty safely conclude that due to the fact that my water usage this year and this time last year were the same, the 25% reduction in my natural gas for last last month (when compared to the same time last year), was completely due to the tankless.

[drtyhands]

Here ya go:

Thanks Duck I had already missed it.Looks good;)

[DuckButter]

I'm just glad to not feel like a scam artist for installing them.

[PLUMBER RICK]

Called my water company and got my water consumption usage for the past year or so. As you can see there was no change between the bill I just got and the same time last year. The past few bills prior compared to last year however, they have gone up. I was only on a tankless really for the last bill however.

1970 Sep 08
1790 Jul
1069 May
1530 Mar
1610 Jan
1600 Nov 07
1970 Sep
1720 Jul
1410 May

Edit:

So I can pretty safely conclude that due to the fact that my water usage this year and this time last year were the same, the 25% reduction in my natural gas for last last month (when compared to the same time last year), was completely due to the tankless.

not to sound stupid:rolleyes: but what do these numbers represent.

out here we are billed in hcf / hundred cubic feet. 1 hcf = 748 gallons

so please don't tell me that your bill is also hcf:eek:

as an example i pulled my usage and it averages 5 hcf in the winter for 2 months. 61 gallons per day. based on 61 days in 2 months.
2 adults.

and approx 20 hcf in the summer months.

toilets are low flow, washing machine is hi efficiency and

sunday is shower day:D.

our sewer bill is based on our lowest 2 month usage during the wettest winter month billing period.

water out here is less than 1/2 cents per gallon.

rick.

[DuckButter]

not to sound stupid:rolleyes: but what do these numbers represent.

out here we are billed in hcf / hundred cubic feet. 1 hcf = 748 gallons

so please don't tell me that your bill is also hcf:eek:

as an example i pulled my usage and it averages 5 hcf in the winter for 2 months. 61 gallons per day. based on 61 days in 2 months.
2 adults.

and approx 20 hcf in the summer months.

toilets are low flow, washing machine is hi efficiency and

sunday is shower day:D.

our sewer bill is based on our lowest 2 month usage during the wettest winter month billing period.

water out here is less than 1/2 cents per gallon.

rick.

I knew there was a logical explanation for the $15 hot water bill.
Sorry, couldn't resist.

As for his bill, it's almost irrelevant...the number comparisons show his useage hasn't changed.

[drtyhands]

I'm just glad to not feel like a scam artist for installing them.
To be perfectly clear on this.
If they want one I'll put it in without a word.
If anyone asks me I find it easiest to give them pros and cons and then advise them to do their own research.People convince themselves of what they want.

[JCsPlumbing]

It is good for me to see theoak accurately keeping track of his experience with one. Might help me help others.

And theoak should also realize that some people install a tankless and end up using more fuel. Maybe he does.

I would like to see a final report rather than going back and forth through all the posts.

J.C.

[DuckButter]

To be perfectly clear on this.
If they want one I'll put it in without a word.
If anyone asks me I find it easiest to give them pros and cons and then advise them to do their own research.People convince themselves of what they want.

I talked someone out of a condensing boiler today After breaking down the price @ 90% afue vs 85% afue for as much as $3k more.

He decided where he plans to sell within 10 years that it really isn't a worthy investment.

Another customer last year opted to pay extra for a Buderus where he and his wife plan to continue living there through retirement.

[theoak]

=
...
as an example i pulled my usage and it averages 5 hcf in the winter for 2 months. 61 gallons per day. based on 61 days in 2 months.
2 adults.

and approx 20 hcf in the summer months.

...
rick.

Called the water company again ... I am billed in cubic feet.

1970 cf = 19.7 hcf

This seems to be in check with your examples. I have a family of 2 adults and 4 (now 5 as of Sept 26 - a girl!) kids.

[theoak]

29 days into my billing cycle ... used 11 therms at the meter.

Woke up this morning though and the house was 63. A cold front moved in last night. That was too cold for my blood, so I turned the heat on for a while ... burned about half a therm from what I could tell which put me over 12.

My billing date for this month is technically the 11th. Sometimes they are on time, sometime they do a day or two later, sometimes a day or 2 earlier.

Again, last year I used 24 therms. If I use 16 therms, combined space and water heat, ... that still gives me a 33% savings ...

[PLUMBER RICK]

just got my 29 day gas bill yesterday.

it's 9 therms and is billed as follows.

29 days customer service charge @ $.16438 per day= $4.77

9 therms @ $.97000= $8.73

$13.50 plus another $1.87 taxes = $15.37 for the month.

leaving me a credit of $25.24 since i paid $100. back in june

3 more days till a hot shower:D

rick.

[3Bulldogs]

I came home to a flood in the basement yesterday...joy! The plumber came and told us that we need to replace our electric water heater. We decided to convert to propane. I called the gas company for an estimate on a power vent and tankless water heater. The price for a Bradford White 40 gallon tank power vent water heater installed is $1,539. The price for a Rinnai tankless installed is $2,190. For a difference of $651, it would seem the only option is the tankless. Plus there is a $300 rebate. $1,890 is far below the daunting estimates that I've read of $3,000 to $4,000, thankfully. Perhaps the higher price is the average for those who don't currently have propane service.

It is being installed on Monday, so I will post updates once we've used it for a bit.

I have learned a lot by reading your posts. Thank you!

[PLUMBER RICK]

I came home to a flood in the basement yesterday...joy! The plumber came and told us that we need to replace our electric water heater. We decided to convert to propane. I called the gas company for an estimate on a power vent and tankless water heater. The price for a Bradford White 40 gallon tank power vent water heater installed is $1,539. The price for a Rinnai tankless installed is $2,190. For a difference of $651, it would seem the only option is the tankless. Plus there is a $300 rebate. $1,890 is far below the daunting estimates that I've read of $3,000 to $4,000, thankfully. Perhaps the higher price is the average for those who don't currently have propane service.

It is being installed on Monday, so I will post updates once we've used it for a bit.

I have learned a lot by reading your posts. Thank you!

is that tankless going to be indoor or outdoor?

is the propane gas line and regulator large enough for the increase in btu's?

the price sounds great, until you know all the facts.

please answer the 2 questions, so you have a good idea about the possible issues.

rick.

[NHMaster3015]

Rick; I fear this battle is one that can not be won. You know and I know that these things will probably never pay for themselves, but the marketing guys have done a bang up job of promoting them and the public is more than willing to buy in. (same with the green movement) I could spend an hour with a customer showing him charts and literature but then, why bother? If they want to spend the bucks, let them. Make up a contract that absolves you of responsibility for bad water, bad equipment and unreasonable expectations. Sell baby Sell. The markets down.

[DuckButter]

I came home to a flood in the basement yesterday...joy! The plumber came and told us that we need to replace our electric water heater. We decided to convert to propane. I called the gas company for an estimate on a power vent and tankless water heater. The price for a Bradford White 40 gallon tank power vent water heater installed is $1,539. The price for a Rinnai tankless installed is $2,190. For a difference of $651, it would seem the only option is the tankless. Plus there is a $300 rebate. $1,890 is far below the daunting estimates that I've read of $3,000 to $4,000, thankfully. Perhaps the higher price is the average for those who don't currently have propane service.

It is being installed on Monday, so I will post updates once we've used it for a bit.

I have learned a lot by reading your posts. Thank you!

Make absolutely certain you're getting something rated for at least 6GPM (gallon per minute) output, the smaller units will only handle one fixture in the colder months.
That price is extremely low, FYI.

[DuckButter]

is that tankless going to be indoor or outdoor?

is the propane gas line and regulator large enough for the increase in btu's?

the price sounds great, until you know all the facts.

please answer the 2 questions, so you have a good idea about the possible issues.

rick.

Rick, in the north, you cannot install a w/h outside, at all.

[PLUMBER RICK]

Rick, in the north, you cannot install a w/h outside, at all.

then how can you explain the price he got? now he has to properly vent the heater.

out here the least expensive option is to install it outdoors/ ventless and near the gas meter.

don't say we didn't warn him:rolleyes:

rick.

[JCsPlumbing]

I came home to a flood in the basement yesterday...joy! The plumber came and told us that we need to replace our electric water heater. We decided to convert to propane. I called the gas company for an estimate on a power vent and tankless water heater. The price for a Bradford White 40 gallon tank power vent water heater installed is $1,539. The price for a Rinnai tankless installed is $2,190. For a difference of $651, it would seem the only option is the tankless. Plus there is a $300 rebate. $1,890 is far below the daunting estimates that I've read of $3,000 to $4,000, thankfully. Perhaps the higher price is the average for those who don't currently have propane service.

It is being installed on Monday, so I will post updates once we've used it for a bit.

I have learned a lot by reading your posts. Thank you!

I have some questions about the $300 rebate. The feds eliminated the $300 rebate as far as I know. So if it's a local gas co. rebate, why is it offered? It's not a manufacturer rebate last I checked.

Why would the gas co. offer a "rebate" on an item that they would make less money on? Wondering. :rolleyes:

J.C.

[Tyman]

Please post pics after the install. Is the gas company selling/installing the tankless for you? That price seems way to low to go from electric to tankless, run gas, venting, and some electrical work.

[theoak]

My install was $2500. I had quite a bit of venting too ...

If the unit can be installed on an outside wall ... there is very little venting that is required.

There are some local gas companies that are offering rebates. Mine is not.

I heard the federal rebate is over. If by any chance it is a federal rebate, I would very much be interested in the form you use as I installed a tankless this year too.

You should be "pretty safe" with a Rinnai LS75, 7.5 gallon unit. You may need the LS94, the 9.4 gallon unit though. It really depends on your home, where you live, and the size of your family however. I would recommend getting another quote just to make sure the recommendations match.

No natural gas in your area? Too bad. I am not too savvy on the price difference between propane and electricity. I am pretty sure propane is cheaper ... not sure by how much though ...

[plumberscrack]

For the extra $650 it's a no brainer going for the Rinnai but $2,200 sounds low to me also.

The plumber could still make money on it but that would have to be the easiest install ever at that price.

Who knows, maybe 3Bulldogs just found a really hungry plumber

[NHMaster3015]

28 pages and still goinggggggggggggggg.:smack-head:

[3Bulldogs]

Okay, I'm going to try to remember and answer all of the questions that have been asked since my post.

This is an inside unit which will be mounted on an outside basement wall.

As for the regulator and piping size, I have no idea. My gas company is doing the installation, so I trust that they will provide me with what I need. They have installed many of these units.

I'm guessing they are installing the 7.5 gpm model as it is just my husband and me in a one bathroom house.

There are a couple reasons why I may have been quoted a low(er) price. First, I used to work for the gas company; however I do not believe I am getting a discount. I have the price breakdown at work, will post more details tomorrow. We already have a gas cook stove and dryer, so the gas installation is not from scratch. Small house = less materials and piping.

The rebate is through the Propane Association, it is not a tax credit. Apparently, it is not a guarantee, though. You submit your application for the rebate and they will honor it if there are allocated funds remaining. It's on a first come, first served basis. I'll post the details once I have more information.

To be honest, we're not looking at this solely on the basis of recouping our money in 20 years. As I mentioned, for the price difference, it makes no sense to go with a tank water heater which has half the lifespan. If the tankless lasts us 20 years, and a tank water heater lasts ten, we're already saving $800+. Other pros...when the tankless finally dies, we will not have 40 gallons of water on the basement floor, propane will be cheaper than the electricity for the current water heater (I do get a propane discount for being a former employee), we will be able to have more than two showers in a row when we have company, don't use hot water to wash clothes, rarely use the dishwasher, etc.

Let me know if I have missed any questions. I will post pictures once the install is complete.

[3Bulldogs]

Here is the cost breakdown:

WH - $1,132
Labor - $450
Vent kit - $240
Material - $368
Total - $2,190

There is a $50 charge to remove the current WH and an electrician is coming to install an additional outlet, which should be minimal. In total, no more than $2,400 not including the rebate (if there's $ left).

[3Bulldogs]

The installation is done and looks great! There is about a ten second delay for hot water at the spigot, but that was to be expected and no different than with the electric tank.

There is a regulator near the dryer and one near the line up to the kitchen stove. They may have been there before, but I hadn't noticed them. The regulator near the dryer has 1/2" copper line coming in from the LP tank with the same size running to the dryer. There is a line (black) also coming from the regulator that feeds the WH.

It is plugged into an extension cord at the moment because the electrician isn't coming until Thursday, but that's okay temporarily.

The new WH is near the incoming city water line where the old one was, so the PVC vent is hidden by the rhododendron. I'm pleased with that because it's on the front of the house. I know that wouldn't matter to most of you guys, but it does to us girls.

The tech even mentioned that we may come in under quote. That would be even better! Easy install, I'm guessing.

So pros, how does it look overall?

[3Bulldogs]

More pics...