Tankless HW heater vs tanked?

[CCusson]

Hi, we're about due to replace our hot water tank. Our existing tank is gas, and it's vented out through our chimney. Right now, there are only three of us living in the house, but that might expand to 4 in the next year or so (my wife and I and 1 child right now). I've got a couple of questions.

1. Is there such a thing as a high-efficiency hot water heater, so that I can vent it outside of the wall instead of through the chimney? We're looking to add on in the next 12-18 months, and if I can remove the chimney that runs through the middle of the house, that'd be great (it's a small bungalow, no fireplace).

2. What are the pro & cons of a tankless hotwater system?

3. Living a little outside of Boston, what's a reasonable price for a new tank installation (including removing the old one)

Thanks for your help!
-Chris

[wrench spinner]

1. Yes you can get a powervented Water Heater that will vent through the wall via a PVC Flue

2. Pro's to tankless:
a. You are not heating up 40 gallons of water when you need 5
Cons to a tankless:
a. You must make sure it is correctly sized or you will not have enough hot water
b. Your water chemistry must be good i.e. hardness, if the water is too hard the small passageways within the unit will get plugged up and the unit will not work
c. Finding a qualified installer is tough, they are not as simple as water heaters where they all pretty much go the same way. They can be quite different from one manufacturer to another
d. You may need to upsize you gas service to properly/efficiently run the unit! Your service may not even be large enough to service it. Just because it runs the Water Heater doesnt neccesarily mean that it will run the tankless.

e./3 As I do not feel comfortable with giving you a sight unseen price on this install I do feel comfortable telling you that it can be more than twice as much as a conventional water heater.


Do not steer away from a tankless water heater just becasue there are more cons than pros but keep in mind most of the cons are site specific. Tanklesses are NOT better than water heaters for every situation and sometimes they are better. I would recommend having a licensed proffesional visit your site and give you further direction, because if one of these will work for your house you are looking at a considerable increase in your efficiency and a considerable decrease in your gas bill!!

[Masterplumb]

You can get a high efficiency heater that vents through the sidewall or vents into a chimney.

There are not enough pro's for me to recommend a tankless to my customers.
Yea you will have endless amount of hot water, but try filling a deep tub while running a load in the w/m with hot water.

Some say the payback is as long as 20 years

The last install I did ran the customer $3800. with all the alterations that had to be done.

I doubt the customer will ever see any payback on that install.

Who knows how long these things will last. Dont forget the maintenance that must be done under certain water conditions.

The installs I have done ranged from 2-4k.

Enjoy being green ;) :D

[boillerman]

Water Heaters vent out the side walls instead of chimneys as often as not these days. Most of these are not high efficiency though, just vented with fans. High efficiency = $, are used mostly for commercial. Tankless = $. You only heat what you use with a tank version anyway, so what's the point in spending all the extra money to have 250,000 BTU's heat your water instead of 40,000? Unless you REALLY need the space.

[ridgidpipe]

I have the rinnia takless in my house
I got it at 1/2 of cost being a certified installer
I have seen my gas bill drop drastically
and they say that it will take about ten years to recoup what you would spend vs a normal water heater
as far as power vented TTW water heaters I have seen the cast just rise another 12 % on the bradford whites and in my opinion they will soon end up as much as a rinnia
I am still a firm believer in doing what is best for my customers so I would say if you have any intentions on moving within the next 5 to 10 years stick with the standard water heater you might just want to increase the size.

[Masterplumb]

I have the rinnia takless in my house
I got it at 1/2 of cost being a certified installer
I have seen my gas bill drop drastically
and they say that it will take about ten years to recoup what you would spend vs a normal water heater
as far as power vented TTW water heaters I have seen the cast just rise another 12 % on the bradford whites and in my opinion they will soon end up as much as a rinnia
I am still a firm believer in doing what is best for my customers so I would say if you have any intentions on moving within the next 5 to 10 years stick with the standard water heater you might just want to increase the size.

How do they know the payback time? Wouldn't they need to know the cost of the installation? Sounds like 10 years is a bit conservative to me. Around here 99.5% of the water heaters exhaust into a masonary chimney, relocating gas, water and flu increases the cost severely.

[JCsPlumbing]

How do they know the payback time? Wouldn't they need to know the cost of the installation? Sounds like 10 years is a bit conservative to me. Around here 99.5% of the water heaters exhaust into a masonary chimney, relocating gas, water and flu increases the cost severely.

What's interesting to me is the number of homeowners that think they can calculate all of this better than the plumber. With all of the homeshows & the internet they think they know best and always forget multiple things.

Teaches me something too. I can read books, webpages, watch homeshows also. But if I do much with electricity, HVAC, structural etc., I'm better off getting a professional in that field I can trust.

J.C.

[JCsPlumbing]

And Marianne Rivera sucks. :p

J.C.

[Masterplumb]

And Marianne Rivera sucks. :p

J.C.

Hey thats a cheapshot! Dont make me take a Jet Blue flight to N.C. to open up a can of whoop azz on ya like Captain Insane-o!

I eat at Mo's

http://www.mosnewyorkgrill.com/

[JCsPlumbing]

I eat N.C. BBQ out of a bucket with a wooden spoon. :D

And I don't know anything about baseball but thought I'd work you over you freakin' bum.

J.C.

[CCusson]

Hey guys,

thanks so much for the quick, thorough and extremely helpful posts!!

I will put this info to good use when it comes time to ask my plumber to install a new hot water tank- no tankless for me with the costs, but I'll ask him anyways.

Again, thanks for sharing your knowledge!

[DuckButter]

And Marianne Rivera sucks. :p

J.C.

Papelbon!!!!

[DuckButter]

Hi, we're about due to replace our hot water tank. Our existing tank is gas, and it's vented out through our chimney. Right now, there are only three of us living in the house, but that might expand to 4 in the next year or so (my wife and I and 1 child right now). I've got a couple of questions.

1. Is there such a thing as a high-efficiency hot water heater, so that I can vent it outside of the wall instead of through the chimney? We're looking to add on in the next 12-18 months, and if I can remove the chimney that runs through the middle of the house, that'd be great (it's a small bungalow, no fireplace).

2. What are the pro & cons of a tankless hotwater system?

3. Living a little outside of Boston, what's a reasonable price for a new tank installation (including removing the old one)

Thanks for your help!
-Chris

You're a perfect candidate for a tankless.
You'll pay anywhere from $2500 to $4000, depending on access to gas & water pipes as well as ease of installation & location.

Rule of thumb for a tankless is to figure a 1/3rd cut in your water heating gas bill...summer bill is a good measure, figuring stove useage into the equation (cooking).

The advantage to the tankless, aside from savings, is the unending hot water.

Disadvantages -
-You may need your gas main increased.
-They take slightly longer to heat water...not l more than 30 seconds longer than what you're used to in my experience.
-You WILL need to flush it annually (6 months is better) with vinegar, though you should drain a standard tank heater as often, most ignore that.
-If you plan to have more than three fixtures run simultaneously you may see a drop in flow depending on time of year (incoming water temperature is lower in the winter here) PROVIDED the heater is sized correctly to begin with (gpm's).

I have done a few in your area in Lexington & Arlington.
You will need to have permits pulled because the gas co will give you a $300 cash rebate for installing one and they require the info.

[Masterplumb]

Papelbon!!!!

You play Kevin Youkilis, I'll play Joba Chamberlain and throw the ball 100 mph at your head :wave2:

[PLUMBER RICK]

never sold a tankless to a customer. once i properly explained all the pros and cons, the customer has decided to stick with a proven tank.

the payback is not there. the maintenance is required to maintain the warranty. the majority of customers never flush a tank water heater. not flushing a tankless is a voided warranty and a shortened heat exchanger life.

new venting and gas piping are typically required to complete the installation.

p.s. i have repaired many tankless that were not properly installed.

i also bought one for my house and never installed it as my 40 gallon tank heater is still working 18 years now:D

do a search on tankless to get all the past threads and input.

i doubt that you'll be interested in a tankless once you read them.

rick.

[DuckButter]

Sounds like he's pretty interested as is.

Brings to question as to why tankless's offer ten year warranties across the board as opposed to tank types having variable warranty's depending on anode size.

As far as extra venting...he's looking to eliminate the chimney...sounds like he'll have to deal with venting one way or another.

A 20 year old water heater was made to higher standards, I see loads of older tanks that lasted way past their warranty's.
None last that long now....barring SuperStor, which is in a differnt category altogether.
The MFG's seem to have caught on that it wasn't lucrative.

[DuckButter]

You play Kevin Youkilis, I'll play Joba Chamberlain and throw the ball 100 mph at your head :wave2:
NO!
You be Jeter...I'm Beckett.

[The Wood Meister]

so why can't he/anyone use the 220 volt tankless and do away with the gas line AND vent completely?

[PLUMBER RICK]

so why can't he/anyone use the 220 volt tankless and do away with the gas line AND vent completely?

unless you live next door to the nuclear power plant, you won't have enough amperage to heat up a cup of water:idea2:

rick.

[Killertoiletspider]

never sold a tankless to a customer. once i properly explained all the pros and cons, the customer has decided to stick with a proven tank.

the payback is not there. the maintenance is required to maintain the warranty. the majority of customers never flush a tank water heater. not flushing a tankless is a voided warranty and a shortened heat exchanger life.

new venting and gas piping are typically required to complete the installation.

p.s. i have repaired many tankless that were not properly installed.

i also bought one for my house and never installed it as my 40 gallon tank heater is still working 18 years now:D

do a search on tankless to get all the past threads and input.

i doubt that you'll be interested in a tankless once you read them.

rick.

Well there you have it.

Tankless water heaters are worthless.

The fact that the one I installed in a a large bakery with twenty fixtures that work just fine have no bearing on the subject, even though I installed it ten years ago.

[ToUtahNow]

During new construction without question I would go tankless. As a retrofit I think you need to do an inventory of what it will take versus savings. My 70-gallon water heater shares a platform with my 60-gallon compressor. If it were not for the gas line I would install a tankless just to save room.

Mark

[PLUMBER RICK]

Well there you have it.

Tankless water heaters are worthless.

The fact that the one I installed in a a large bakery with twenty fixtures that work just fine have no bearing on the subject, even though I installed it ten years ago.



if you want to talk about larrs and raypack heaters/ boilers, i've installed hundreds in both new construction and service.

but we are not talking commercial installations. i rather doubt the o.p. is talking anything more than a common residential installation.

it must be keeping you up late to monitor just my post. funny as most of the others in the tankless debate have my same feelings.

get some sleep and work on your facts. then i might actually take you serious.

rick.

hows that other forum treating you? you must be bored since you go both ways.

[Killertoiletspider]

The installation was a Takagi, but I probably will stick to the other forum, it has a lot less opinionated west coast fools that think they are god's gift to the plumbing industry.

You wouldn't last ten minutes in the market I work in.

[DuckButter]

if you want to talk about larrs and raypack heaters/ boilers, i've installed hundreds in both new construction and service.

but we are not talking commercial installations. i rather doubt the o.p. is talking anything more than a common residential installation.

it must be keeping you up late to monitor just my post. funny as most of the others in the tankless debate have my same feelings.

get some sleep and work on your facts. then i might actually take you serious.

rick.

hows that other forum treating you? you must be bored since you go both ways.

He's apparently happy on at least the three forums I know him on, as far as his opinion is concerned, I rate him up there with Mark...he knows his stuff.

Not at all looking to butt heads, but I personally think Tankless will eventually phase out tanks in the mainstream...once they get the prices down to Earthly figures.

Utah Mark says it VERY well, they're excellent on new structures where you have reign over running the pipe for them.
I have yet to get a single callback on any defect for a tankless I've installed except for one, a Bosch the homeowner had purchased at Blowes.

He now tells me he wishes he'd talked to me before getting the poiece of junk.

You seem dead-set against tanklless, I dunno why, but most plumbers that have installed them like them, excepting the price barrier.

There are always going to be opinions aside from your own.

[MrsSeatDown]

The installation was a Takagi, but I probably will stick to the other forum, it has a lot less opinionated west coast fools that think they are god's gift to the plumbing industry.

You wouldn't last ten minutes in the market I work in.

You seem opinionated too. Does that make you a Midwest fool? Is calling people names how you last in your market?

[PLUMBER RICK]

The installation was a Takagi, but I probably will stick to the other forum, it has a lot less opinionated west coast fools that think they are god's gift to the plumbing industry.

You wouldn't last ten minutes in the market I work in.

you would be better as that forum is just for pro plumbers and not designed to help the general public.

since this forum has always been for the general public to ask questions,

it was nice knowing you. stick with their help since i'm no help to you:clapping:

have fun with the pros and let me help the amateurs with my 33 years of plumbing.

too bad you never made it to the roundup. you would have been smoked too.

getting late you have a 7am start time with the guys.

rick.

[PLUMBER RICK]

He's apparently happy on at least the three forums I know him on, as far as his opinion is concerned, I rate him up there with Mark...he knows his stuff.

Not at all looking to butt heads, but I personally think Tankless will eventually phase out tanks in the mainstream...once they get the prices down to Earthly figures.

Utah Mark says it VERY well, they're excellent on new structures where you have reign over running the pipe for them.
I have yet to get a single callback on any defect for a tankless I've installed except for one, a Bosch the homeowner had purchased at Blowes.

He now tells me he wishes he'd talked to me before getting the poiece of junk.

You seem dead-set against tanklless, I dunno why, but most plumbers that have installed them like them, excepting the price barrier.

There are always going to be opinions aside from your own.

lets see the facts. we all seem to agree that the install price is 2 to 3 times the cost of a replacement tank heater.

heater, gas , vent.

we all agree that the heater needs to be flushed 1 to 2 times a year.

so lets use my current gas bill of $15.00 a month for my water heater, dryer and gas oven/ cook top. we'll keep the winter furnace out of the equation.

so please show me how to pay back the original cost plus the upkeep of the annual cleaning.

won't even think about the cost and delay of service parts and qualified service people. remember it's no longer a gas valve or thermocouple.

what did we ever do before tankless came here?

remember my 40 gallon $100 heater is 18 years old and i've never replaced anything. i do run the hose bibb 2 times a year for 30 seconds.

i do have a jacuzzi tub that joey uses.

now i have a bidet seat and a tankless for sale that nobody wants:rolling-eyes:

do the math and show me the numbers.

rick.

[ToUtahNow]

Holy cow everything does not need to be a competition. I have always figured I've learned more from those I disagree with than those I agree with. Sometimes you just need to agree to disagree and go on. This site should be about an exchange of information.

Mark

[MrsSeatDown]

Sometimes you just need to agree to disagree on go on.

Mark

How do you do this?:rotflmao1:

[DuckButter]

Rick, your in the habit of inviting those who don't agree with you to leave the forum and join the pro's forum...not the best way to promote ridgid...imho.
The other forum is growing rapidly...even I'm surprised at it.

As far as your accolades at the roundup...you might be surprised to learn that it was a social event, it wasn't televised on ESPN.
You won a trophy, but aside from that it bears no weight on anything aside from a game at a social gathering....confuses me as to why that keeps coming up...it doesn't solidify your debate on tankless water heaters.

Again, not wanting to butt heads, but the topic is tankless water heaters last I checked, not leave the forum if you disagree or who can smoke who at thumb wrestling.

[DuckButter]

Rick, in MA where it gets cold, a water heater will cost just a wee bit more than $15 a month...a leeetle bit.

[ToUtahNow]

How do you do this?:rotflmao1:

If you do not like "go on" you just don't use it.

Mark

[DuckButter]

Holy cow everything does not need to be a competition. I have always figured I've learned more from those I disagree with than those I agree with. Sometimes you just need to agree to disagree and go on. This site should be about an exchange of information.

Mark
THANK YOU!

I tried to press "thank you" twice, but it ran away on me!

Disagreement is the very HEART of the learning process...taking it personal or diverting it to a completely different topic wins no gain.

[ToUtahNow]

The fact that something does not make economical sense does not mean it doesn't make sense. If everything I did made economical since I would not have much fun.

Mark

[MrsSeatDown]

If everything I did made economical since I would not have much fun.

Mark

Sometimes things you do don't make grammatical sense either, but they sure are fun:nyaa-nyaa4:

[PLUMBER RICK]

Not at all looking to butt heads, but I personally think Tankless will eventually phase out tanks in the mainstream...once they get the prices down to Earthly figures.

Utah Mark says it VERY well, they're excellent on new structures where you have reign over running the pipe for them.
I have yet to get a single callback on any defect for a tankless I've installed except for one, a Bosch the homeowner had purchased at Blowes.

He now tells me he wishes he'd talked to me before getting the poiece of junk.

You seem dead-set against tanklless, I dunno why, but most plumbers that have installed them like them, excepting the price barrier.

There are always going to be opinions aside from your own.

lets see the facts. we all seem to agree that the install price is 2 to 3 times the cost of a replacement tank heater.

heater, gas , vent.

we all agree that the heater needs to be flushed 1 to 2 times a year.

so lets use my current gas bill of $15.00 a month for my water heater, dryer and gas oven/ cook top. we'll keep the winter furnace out of the equation.

so please show me how to pay back the original cost plus the upkeep of the annual cleaning.

won't even think about the cost and delay of service parts and qualified service people. remember it's no longer a gas valve or thermocouple.

what did we ever do before tankless came here?

remember my 40 gallon $100 heater is 18 years old and i've never replaced anything. i do run the hose bibb 2 times a year for 30 seconds.

i do have a jacuzzi tub that joey uses.

now i have a bidet seat and a tankless for sale that nobody wants:rolling-eyes:

do the math and show me the numbers.

rick.

Rick, your in the habit of inviting those who don't agree with you to leave the forum and join the pro's forum...not the best way to promote ridgid...imho.
The other forum is growing rapidly...even I'm surprised at it.

As far as your accolades at the roundup...you might be surprised to learn that it was a social event, it wasn't televised on ESPN.
You won a trophy, but aside from that it bears no weight on anything aside from a game at a social gathering....confuses me as to why that keeps coming up...it doesn't solidify your debate on tankless water heaters.

Again, not wanting to butt heads, but the topic is tankless water heaters last I checked, not leave the forum if you disagree or who can smoke who at thumb wrestling.

i gave you the facts and this is the best response you can answer it with?

yes it was a social gathering. but with 9 events planned there was a competition.

i guess his 10 minute jab was my reason for the roundup.

his commercial bakery installation has absolutely nothing to compare to the original question. a residential family installation.

i know form 4 years on the forum what the consensus of the others have stated. i doubt that his 2 months of being on this forum has given him enough of a chance to read back 4 years of others opinions.

all he has to do is a search on tankless and read the vast of other post.

but instead he attacks me on my opinion when there are a majority of us that agree on the tank vs. tankless debate.

rick.

[ToUtahNow]

Sometimes things you do don't make grammatical sense either, but they sure are fun:nyaa-nyaa4:

Sometimes even a firefighter stumbles on the way to a fire but their dog does not take a bite out of them for it.

Mark :hug:

[DuckButter]

Online concensus of opinions vs ten years for a Takagi in a commercial restaurant...I dunno, but seems like the word "facts" varies by definition.

As far as his attack...this might have spawned his response:

it must be keeping you up late to monitor just my post. funny as most of the others in the tankless debate have my same feelings.

get some sleep and work on your facts. then i might actually take you serious.

rick.

hows that other forum treating you? you must be bored since you go both ways.

It sometimes seems like you have to be right at all cost, I can personally attest to not finding your assessment of the hours I keep to be very friendly, nor boasting of winning a contest at the roundup.

I suspect he didn't like it either.

On topic, Takagi is a residential tankless, they're one of the more common names, along with Rinnai, Rheem, Paloma, or Noritz.

You might want to be open to the possibility that they aren't all junk heaps.

Also, here in MA $15 won't get you enough hot water for a pot of coffee.
The lowest hot water bill I have seen is $40 in the summer on an indirect run off a 90%+ boiler for a couple with no kids, they shower once a day.

Shave 1/3 off the $40 multiply by 12, then take $300 off the local gas co offers and you aren't so far off in terms of the cost of a powervent, which is required unless you want to dole out the cash to reline your chimney and stay with a draft vent.

You can usually break even within ten years depending on consumption, but when it comes time to replace, the cost is drastically lower because the piping & venting are all there.

I know you prolly wanna win the debate, but keep an open mind.

[MrsSeatDown]

Sometimes even a firefighter stumbles on the way to a fire but their dog does not take a bite out of them for it.

Mark :hug:

Sometimes the lifeguard forgets to take the buoy into the ocean, but they can still pull the drowning person out of the water.

[ToUtahNow]

Points well taken by all parties, now I think it's time to make nice so we do not lose the thread.

Mark

[ToUtahNow]

Sometimes the lifeguard forgets to take the boy into the ocean, but they can still pull the drowning person out of the water.

Touche! :bravo:

Mark

[MrsSeatDown]

Touche! :bravo:

Mark

Whatever! You can't cheat!:smack-head:You have to wait and catch me making a typo on my own merits:nyaa-nyaa4:

[ToUtahNow]

Whatever! You can't cheat!:nyaa-nyaa4:You have to wait and catch me making a typo on my own merits:smack-head:

But of course you are right.:rolling-eyes:

Mark :finger:

[MrsSeatDown]

But of course you are right.:rolling-eyes:

Mark :finger:

Brenda trained you well:clapping: Does she give lessons?:p

[ToUtahNow]

Brenda trained you well:clapping: Does she give lessons?:p

Yes but she charges more for girls.

Mark :loser: :rotflmao1:

[PLUMBER RICK]

On topic, Takagi is a residential tankless, they're one of the more common names, along with Rinnai, Rheem, Paloma, or Noritz.

You might want to be open to the possibility that they aren't all junk heaps.

Also, here in MA $15 won't get you enough hot water for a pot of coffee.
The lowest hot water bill I have seen is $40 in the summer on an indirect run off a 90%+ boiler for a couple with no kids, they shower once a day.

Shave 1/3 off the $40 multiply by 12, then take $300 off the local gas co offers and you aren't so far off in terms of the cost of a powervent, which is required unless you want to dole out the cash to reline your chimney and stay with a draft vent.

You can usually break even within ten years depending on consumption, but when it comes time to replace, the cost is drastically lower because the piping & venting are all there.

I know you prolly wanna win the debate, but keep an open mind.

remember that the installation is 2 to 3 times the cost of a tank type heater replacement.

so the $13 monthly savings based on your numbers, still won't even cover the cost of annual or semi annual required maintenance/ cleaning.

plus your ground water is much cooler than ours and therefore the recovery is no where as good as ours would be here.

for me i might have a $5.00 monthly savings. based on your numbers.

if you really want a sure fire way to save real money, go buy a new fridge and freezer if your's is over 10 years old. i saved $50.00 every 2 months when i replaced my own fridge:thumbup2::idea2:

look at the early 70's when there was a huge push for all electric and also solar domestic water heating. if it wasn't for the tax credits, it would have never paid back then.

i think i have only 1 customer that still has working solar. with 1100+ customers, this speaks for itself;)

now if the thankless were installed as a point of use heater, then i would like them better. a recirc system requires a separate tank/ (electric) to maintain the original warranty. otherwise it's down to 3 years. so now add the electrical cost for the recirc tank, and you're more than the monthly utility savings.

my hi efficiency washer would cause the tankless to cycle over 10 times just in the fill cycle.

there are plenty of ways to save money on utilities. a tankless is not going to pay for itself any time soon.

i actually assess my customers water and power bills. in l.a. they are billed every 2 months (residential) 1 month (commercial) along with a sewer surcharge. 10 minutes of looking at a years worth of utility bills will pay off in the first bill. (2 months).

$3500 worth of tankless will not pay off in 10 years. at least not with my customers.

anyone interested in a toto washlet seat or a noritz tankless:confused:

rick.

[MrsSeatDown]

Yes but she charges more for girls.

Mark :loser: :rotflmao1:

:bow-down:You win. Good Night :wave:

[DuckButter]

50 gal power vent installed....................... $1400

7+ gpm tankless installed (10 yr warranty) $3000

$15 saved/month over ten years .............. $1800


Replacing tankless with existing model ...... $2000

Having hot water regardless how long your
16 yr old daughter showers....................... priceless

[PLUMBER RICK]

50 gal power vent installed....................... $1400

7+ gpm tankless installed (10 yr warranty) $3000

$15 saved/month over ten years .............. $1800


Replacing tankless with existing model ...... $2000

Having hot water regardless how long your
16 yr old daughter showers....................... priceless

how about the required chemical flushing you do once or twice a year for a tankless to stay in warranty?

does $3000 cover the heater, gas line, vent line, plus the electrical?
power vents are not very common here for residential 40-75 gal. heaters.

the going rate according to the salesman from the essix co who sell the chemical and the pump is $200-250 a service.

i charge $125 with my own set up.

so there goes your yearly savings.

i can tell you from my experience that 90+% of my customers never have flushed their heaters. never have replaced their anode rods. never have touched their heaters since they were installed. less than 5% ever see a warranty issue. i typically only sell 6 year heaters as the warranty is a joke and the heaters are now prorated ever since the price went through the roof and the heaters went from $150 to over $450 under the warranty period. they refund your original cost and sell you one at the current cost. then add in the labor and parts. save the extra $100-150 for the longer warranty and use it down the road for a new heater in 10-20 years.

rick.

[NHMaster3015]

Have you noticed that all the products designed to save you tons of money all cost so damn much to purchase and install that most never really live up to the claims?
Nothing is for nothing and there's no one out there thats going to give you a break. Try and buy a pellett stove now. four to six grand and the pelletts have gone to almost 5 bucks a bag. Why? because oil is 5 bucks a gallon and there's no way in hell anyone is going to let you get a leg up. It's a F - U world we live in.

Solar - will never pay for itself or save you a dime
Ground water heat pumps - cost so much to install you will never see a return.
Tankless water heaters - cost and installation is more than the annual savings.
Burning wood. Wood is over 200 bucks a cord
Pelletts - 5 bucks a bag.

Life, no body get's out alive.

[JCsPlumbing]

Have you noticed that all the products designed to save you tons of money all cost so damn much to purchase and install that most never really live up to the claims?
Nothing is for nothing and there's no one out there thats going to give you a break. Try and buy a pellett stove now. four to six grand and the pelletts have gone to almost 5 bucks a bag. Why? because oil is 5 bucks a gallon and there's no way in hell anyone is going to let you get a leg up. It's a F - U world we live in.

Solar - will never pay for itself or save you a dime
Ground water heat pumps - cost so much to install you will never see a return.
Tankless water heaters - cost and installation is more than the annual savings.
Burning wood. Wood is over 200 bucks a cord
Pelletts - 5 bucks a bag.

Life, no body get's out alive.

Best assessment I've seen. The thing that's hard for me is installing something that I know is not exacly right for the customer. Percentages where someone needs a tankless are very small. But often a customer is insistent no matter what the math says. Went to a Rheem class where the rep showed the sales numbers and tankless is ever increasing regardless of what's right for the consumer.

I know what a tank will do and what a tankless will do and maintenance/problems associated with both. Majority of the time, no tankless. But a customer might be insistent and the math or bottom line is not as much of a concern. Alot buy by "feel".

I realized this when I put in a $650.00 kitchen faucet for someone. You know what it did? Put out hot and cold water just like a $75.00 Delta.

J.C.

P.S. Tankless Water Heater were not originally created to be more efficient. They were made for overseas use to gain as much sq. footage as possible.

[cpw]

So I'm probably in the anti-tankless crowd, because I'm not convinced I'm heating water when I don't need it. When my boiler has crapped out for several hours and then turns back on, the WH zone doesn't call for heat, so I can't really be losing much. Are there any citations anywhere (not by tankless manufacturers) on how much you lose (say in BTUs/hr) on a regular water heater?

[JCsPlumbing]

I've looked for that too CPW. Standby heat loss along with maybe a pilot. It's not as great as the tankless promoters would like you to believe in my opinion but I really would like to see hard numbers.

I have an outside tank heater in an insulated hut. I recently flushed it (about a gallon. No sediment) and turned the thermostat back and forth. Worked the ball valve & T&P also. Put it all back together. The next morinings shower was as hot as ever. That evening was only lukewarm. I go out and see what's up. I forgot to put the thermostat in the right position! It was turned down to pilot and my water was still hot for an estimated 12 hours. So the standby firing and heat loss doesn't seem to be what tankless promoters claim.

J.C.

[PLUMBER RICK]

another waste of money are the instant hot water dispensers.

at 750 watts of power to keep 1/2 gallon of water at 190 degrees for the convenience of not having to heat up a cup of water for tea or coffee.

but here is where it gets fun.

the original warranty is 1 year. some don't last the year and others last 5+ years. if you don't use them on a regular basis like every 2 weeks, they would burn out. the water in them would evaporate with the heating cycle. the newer ones have a resettable thermal fuse.

the heater also cycles 3 to 4 times an hour just to maintain the high temperature of the water. multiply this x 24 hours a day and do the math on 750 watts.

how do i know this? very simple. i've replaced and installed hundreds of them. a good percentage of my customers have them. including my parents:D anytime i work in the kitchen on a faucet, filter, disposal, i hear the heater cycle at 15-20 minute intervals. this while it's not being used.

one of the cheapest things to do is to install a plug in timer for the heater. set it to turn off during the odd ball hours. even if it's just 6 hours a night, 25% savings or 8 hours 33% savings. it will also prolong the life of the heater due to reheating and potentially a burn out due to lack of use.

by the way, joey wanted an instant hot when we got married.

i showed her how to use the microwave for 30 seconds:D

plus my kitchen cabinet is not water damaged like the majority are that have a instant hot that's leaked.

will i still continue to install instant hots? yes, but i do warn and inform my customers just like i've stated here. and all get a timer. plus with insinkerator, i can extend the 1 year warranty for free to 3 years on their high end models;) can't do nothing about the waste of power during the day, but i try:rolleyes:

rick.

[Dairylander]

The majority of the tankless naysayers on this thread are boiling the entire argument down to penny pinching.
Let's not forget the global perspective here. We have lost almost 4,500 of our boys in the war in Iraq for many reasons; one of which is to stabilize the region that supplies our fuel.
Forgive the harsh reference, but one must remember that energy conservation is not just about lowering one's utility bill.
The United States imports natural gas from Canada, Mexico, Algeria, Australia, Egypt, Equatorial, Guinea, Malaysia, Nigeria, Norway, Oman, Qatar, Trinidad and Tobago, and the United Arab Emirates.
Energy independence = national security.
I had a tankless put in my mom's house a few years ago. Will it pay for itself? Not in her lifetime. Is it still worth it? Definitely.
If we all do something small we can effect real change.
If we all listen to Rick we'll die a few dollars richer.

[drtyhands]

The majority of the tankless naysayers on this thread are boiling the entire argument down to penny pinching.
Let's not forget the global perspective here. We have lost almost 4,500 of our boys in the war in Iraq for many reasons; one of which is to stabilize the region that supplies our fuel.
Forgive the harsh reference, but one must remember that energy conservation is not just about lowering one's utility bill.
The United States imports natural gas from Canada, Mexico, Algeria, Australia, Egypt, Equatorial, Guinea, Malaysia, Nigeria, Norway, Oman, Qatar, Trinidad and Tobago, and the United Arab Emirates.
Energy independence = national security.
I had a tankless put in my mom's house a few years ago. Will it pay for itself? Not in her lifetime. Is it still worth it? Definitely.
If we all do something small we can effect real change.
If we all listen to Rick we'll die a few dollars richer.
Not me,I make BIG money off every install,Go tankless!!!

Everyone here knows what sarcasm looks like.....Yes?....GOOD!!!

[Masterplumb]

The majority of the tankless naysayers on this thread are boiling the entire argument down to penny pinching.
Let's not forget the global perspective here. We have lost almost 4,500 of our boys in the war in Iraq for many reasons; one of which is to stabilize the region that supplies our fuel.
Forgive the harsh reference, but one must remember that energy conservation is not just about lowering one's utility bill.
The United States imports natural gas from Canada, Mexico, Algeria, Australia, Egypt, Equatorial, Guinea, Malaysia, Nigeria, Norway, Oman, Qatar, Trinidad and Tobago, and the United Arab Emirates.
Energy independence = national security.
I had a tankless put in my mom's house a few years ago. Will it pay for itself? Not in her lifetime. Is it still worth it? Definitely.
If we all do something small we can effect real change.
If we all listen to Rick we'll die a few dollars richer.

If you want energy independence we need to drill here. Thats the only way it will happen, not by installing tankless heaters.

[Dairylander]

If you want energy independence we need to drill here. Thats the only way it will happen, not by installing tankless heaters.
I don't know about you, Masterplumb, but I can't afford to buy an oil drilling rig or a nuclear reactor.
However, I can afford a tankless heater, high efficiency furnace, CFLs, extra attic insulation, etc...
These baby steps accumulate to something bigger.
It's analogous to your drilling solution. It takes legislation to open drilling. Legislation is passed by the elected officials we vote for. Your one tiny vote doesn't amount to anything on its own, just like one tankless won't do squat on its own. But if enough people vote for drilling, or enough people choose energy efficient appliances, real change occurs.

[cpw]

I don't know about you, Masterplumb, but I can't afford to buy an oil drilling rig or a nuclear reactor.
However, I can afford a tankless heater, high efficiency furnace, CFLs, extra attic insulation, etc...
These baby steps accumulate to something bigger.
It's analogous to your drilling solution. It takes legislation to open drilling. Legislation is passed by the elected officials we vote for. Your one tiny vote doesn't amount to anything on its own, just like one tankless won't do squat on its own. But if enough people vote for drilling, or enough people choose energy efficient appliances, real change occurs.
I agree with your intentions, that we should try to do things efficiently; but I am not yet convinced that a tankless would really be more efficient. Also, I think that cost is often a good proxy for efficiency. New gas lines and stainless steel venting use a lot of energy to produce and ship, and that energy usage is reflected in the cost of the installation. I think looking at cost and payback can be very useful in determining the energy use of something over its entire lifecycle not just during operation.

[The Wood Meister]

unless you live next door to the nuclear power plant, you won't have enough amperage to heat up a cup of water:idea2:

rick.


wow, I had NO idea of the draw. Did a quick Google and found http://www.e-tankless.com/products.php
that site. Wow, 80 to 120 amps!!! Crap, my welder AND A/C AND compressor AND table saw don't draw that much combined!

[Dairylander]

I am not yet convinced that a tankless would really be more efficient. New gas lines and stainless steel venting use a lot of energy to produce and ship, and that energy usage is reflected in the cost of the installation.
If you read the original post again, you'll remember that this homeowner wants to change to side vent.
Which means the decision is between a power vent tanked heater vs. a tankless.
I may just be a carpenter, but I'm pretty sure they would have similar gas line and steel venting material needs.

[DuckButter]

NHMaster hit it on the head.

ALL newer, high efficiency technology has a tendency to be rediculously over-priced.
You can get a Burnham SCG boiler rated @ 85% for less than half the price of a Buderus condensing boiler @ 95%.

The catch on the Buderus condensing boiler is that you have to run it at 140 degree's to attain the 95%...it gets more in the vicinity of 90% when operating at 170-180 degree's.

Do the math on a difference of 5% on a heating bill and it won't justify the price difference until you factor in the local gas co's rebate of $1k for a 90% boiler.

As for tankless, there's a similar problem, but not quite as exaggerated.

It usually breaks down to useage, if a family is spending $100 a month to heat water for a family of 6, the tank will be worthwhile...especially with the fact that they'll never run oiut of hot water.

A single bachelor would be better off sticking with the tank.

There are no obscure or expensive chemicals to buy to treat them...you flush them with white vinegar and a small pump for an hour.

Also, CPW...sounds like you have a boiler tankless or indirect...those are different from the tankless we're discussing.
Boiler tankless's run directly from the boiler.
They tend to fluctiuate in temperature and don't have a very large volume of output, they're best fed into a tank.

Indirect water heaters are also big, they run off a boiler as a seperate zone and the gas co's here also offrer a $300 cash rebate for them.
They're a bit less expensive than a tankless, but you have to have a boiler of adequate size in place already.

[DuckButter]

If you read the original post again, you'll remember that this homeowner wants to change to side vent.
Which means the decision is between a power vent tanked heater vs. a tankless.
I may just be a carpenter, but I'm pretty sure they would have similar gas line and steel venting material needs.

You're correct, to a point.
Tankless's use SS venting, a powervent will use PVC.
The SS vent is expensive, which is part of the reason for the price disparity between a powervent or tankless heater.

The powervent will only operate at 60%, as opposed to a tankless at 84%.

[Dairylander]

You're correct, to a point.
Tankless's use SS venting, a powervent will use PVC.
The SS vent is expensive, which is part of the reason for the price disparity between a powervent or tankless heater.

Thanks for the correction, Duck.
But to CPW, my point still stands, since both types of venting require raw materials, production, shipping, etc.
And the steel can be recycled where PVC cannot.

[DuckButter]

does $3000 cover the heater, gas line, vent line, plus the electrical?
power vents are not very common here for residential 40-75 gal. heaters.

the going rate according to the salesman from the essix co who sell the chemical and the pump is $200-250 a service.

i charge $125 with my own set up.
rick.

Thats close to what I charge to flush one, it's also what I charge to flush a tank type.
In either case when I install them I give the customer a brief chat on how to do it themselves, and you're right, most won't do it.

As for the cost to install -
I've installed them for $2500.
It was to replace an existing powervent, electrical, vent and 3/4" gas line were already close to where I needed them.

Once the price goes over $3k, I tend to sway them back to a simple replacement on the existing, or an indirect if possible...for some reason you seem to think I sell them unecessarily, I don't.

I get a lot of requests for them, most I wind up talking them out of when the costs don't justify the install. (great way to earn repeat & referral business BTW)
However, I don't simply blacklist the idea..I have a handful of happy customers with tanklless's.
They DO save money, not a fortune, but in most cases where the price may have seemed daunting the deciding factor was a jacuzzi, a large family that frequently runs out of water...or an environmental fanatic who insists on them.

I have had a few that insist on tankless regardless of price when it serves them to have a heater that won't run out of hot water, despite my pointing out that they won't make the money back in ten years.

I have to wonder Rick, what do you say to a customer who insists on one in that case?

[toolaholic]

Duck,You're a good man!

[cpw]

Also, CPW...sounds like you have a boiler tankless or indirect...those are different from the tankless we're discussing.
Boiler tankless's run directly from the boiler.
They tend to fluctiuate in temperature and don't have a very large volume of output, they're best fed into a tank.

Indirect water heaters are also big, they run off a boiler as a seperate zone and the gas co's here also offrer a $300 cash rebate for them.
They're a bit less expensive than a tankless, but you have to have a boiler of adequate size in place already.
Duck,

I do have an 80 gallon indirect tank running of a boiler. The boiler puts out ~200k BTUs so it is plenty of hot water. The tank is really needed though, with only a 40 gallon tank I couldn't fill the tub in my master bathroom (I looked at the meter once and the faucet relases something like 10gpm, but that is with cold mixed in).

A lot of people around here have the same kind of thing or a little 5 gallon tank hooked up to their boiler.

What I don't get is why for gas the tanked heaters have such a low recovery rate compared to the tankless. If you were to up the recovery rate of the tanked heater, you could have the same argument about never (rarely) running out.

Charles

[cpw]

Thanks for the correction, Duck.
But to CPW, my point still stands, since both types of venting require raw materials, production, shipping, etc.
And the steel can be recycled where PVC cannot.
In some cases the cost differential may not be that high; but I'm wary of technologies that claim to save energy but cost more overall. I'm also suspicious of the Prius.

I agree there are other benefits to them like saving square footage, but I think that probably has limited value in most places. The cost/sq ft where I live is in the range of $200-300, so you could say that is a $1000-$1500 savings right there, but unless space is really constrained like in an apartment that doesn't quite strike a nerve with me.

[DuckButter]

Duck,

I do have an 80 gallon indirect tank running of a boiler. The boiler puts out ~200k BTUs so it is plenty of hot water. The tank is really needed though, with only a 40 gallon tank I couldn't fill the tub in my master bathroom (I looked at the meter once and the faucet relases something like 10gpm, but that is with cold mixed in).

A lot of people around here have the same kind of thing or a little 5 gallon tank hooked up to their boiler.

What I don't get is why for gas the tanked heaters have such a low recovery rate compared to the tankless. If you were to up the recovery rate of the tanked heater, you could have the same argument about never (rarely) running out.

Charles

Right.
I betcha the recovery on your indirect is pretty dam fast though...huh?
I only skimmed your post (things'er getting' a bit verbose here) and got the impression you had a boiler tankless...or maybe you do have one the feeds the indirect.
The tankless heaters have an array of 3/4" copper pipe with fins, much like what you see on baseboard heat elements, they're engineered to "suck up" much more of the heat than a tank type can.
A tank has an opening in the middle of the tank, with a diverter that helps to take some of the heat and transfer it to the tank, but they generally only "suck up" 60% of the heat that passes through.

On a humorous note, the fact that they don't have a tank thats constantly heated is likely going to make them notorious for outlasting tank types. (already has)
An example is we all know how over heating a water heater will shorten it's lifespan.
The electronics & sensors on tankless are what have most apprehensive.
As a plumber, I'm not about to start stocking flow sensors, flame sensors, vacuum sensors, aquastats and other parts for every conceivable brand of tankless I might encounter.
Each MFG has techs that cover any given area who have these parts.

As they gain momentum, the price will go down. (remember the cell phone industry)
The parts will also become more readily available as well.

[DuckButter]

So I'm probably in the anti-tankless crowd, because I'm not convinced I'm heating water when I don't need it. When my boiler has crapped out for several hours and then turns back on, the WH zone doesn't call for heat, so I can't really be losing much. Are there any citations anywhere (not by tankless manufacturers) on how much you lose (say in BTUs/hr) on a regular water heater?
My code requires not more than 15 btu per sq/ft per hour. (tank surface area)

Do some simple math and it doesn't add up to much over a month, the real savings on tankless is the AFUE of the burner when in use.

[Masterplumb]

Indirect tank....the best way to make hot water. Does your tankless have a lifetime warranty? :happydance:

[JCsPlumbing]

The majority of the tankless naysayers on this thread are boiling the entire argument down to penny pinching.
Let's not forget the global perspective here. We have lost almost 4,500 of our boys in the war in Iraq for many reasons; one of which is to stabilize the region that supplies our fuel.
Forgive the harsh reference, but one must remember that energy conservation is not just about lowering one's utility bill.
The United States imports natural gas from Canada, Mexico, Algeria, Australia, Egypt, Equatorial, Guinea, Malaysia, Nigeria, Norway, Oman, Qatar, Trinidad and Tobago, and the United Arab Emirates.
Energy independence = national security.
I had a tankless put in my mom's house a few years ago. Will it pay for itself? Not in her lifetime. Is it still worth it? Definitely.
If we all do something small we can effect real change.
If we all listen to Rick we'll die a few dollars richer.

This is kookie talk. Why didn't your mom install an electric if imported natural gas is such a national security threat? Also, the majority of tankless I've encountered are made from overseas. How does this help us? Where was your moms' made? Do you know that you can put in a tankless for a customer and they end up using MORE gas?

Each hotwater application is different and must be figured at the job to give a customer what they want/need while maximizing efficiency AND what they are paying for.

I see and here this from customers that have a tankless & want to defend and justify their decision. I ask them questions because honestly I want to constantly gather information and improve. In every case they seem to change their "use behavior" to accommadate a tankless system. With a tank, they had the W/M running, dishwasher, kitchen sink, and maybe a shower. With the tankless they waited on the W/M. Get the point? Tankless water heaters are only one solution to giving a customer hotwater and in my experience it is the minority solution.

I don't believe Rick's motivation is to make his customers a few dollars richer. I believe Rick's motivation is to do what's best for his customer. Tankless systems may get to that point one day. Then he'll probably be installing more than ever. Either way, you may disagree, but you've got to respect that he's trying to do what he feels is best for people.

J.C.

[theoak]

I am a user and not a plumber.

I just had a Rinnai 75LSi (natural gas) unit installed last week.

I had a natural gas 50 gallon tank. Usually during the middle of the third shower, we were running out of hot water.

Why I got a tankless ... I have a large family. The water heater was starting to "run" our family. We had to "schedule" our showers with the appropriate breaks to allow the hot water to build back up again.

(It could have been that the hot water tank was going ... who knows.)

I have 4 kids and 2 adults (including myself) in my family. Getting ready for church on Sunday was a dream. The wife had a bath (we have a "soaker" tub (35 gallons?). I then bathed my two youngest. While I was bathing the two youngest, the two oldest, had their showers. Finally I jumped in the shower. This was done in about an hour and a half. There is no way I could have done this a week ago. A week ago, by the time the oldest would have started their showers, we would have been out of hot water.

The hot water heater no longer "runs" our life.

I will add ... with both showers going, I do notice a reduction in pressure ... maybe 10%. The shower however is still very enjoyable. The tempurature does not change. Prior, I would have to continually tweak the hot water up when two showers were going until there was no hot water left. Now ... I don't have to do anything but continue to enjoy the shower.

Will I make my money back ... who knows. In 10 years maybe. If you factor in the time that we save though not having to wait for hot water recovery however ... after last Sunday ... it has already paid itself off :)

I will add though I have lost a disciplining tool. I can no longer say "whoever is good gets to shower first!" ;)

[theoak]

One thing I will add too ...

As far as I understand it, tankless technology is not new. In Europe and eastern Asia (Japan for example), tankless water heaters are the norm.

They are only "new" in North America.

[JCsPlumbing]

That is correct. They have been overseas for years. But there hotwater usage does not match ours either. The first round of tankless sucked for the U.S. The newer ones are becoming more and more toward our uses and satisfying customers. Ever notice how Rinnai for example is ever increasing maximum btu's while reducing required flow rate?

J.C.

[JCsPlumbing]

Now somebody go figure out my VENT QUESTION!

J.C.

[Masterplumb]

I am a user and not a plumber.

I just had a Rinnai 75LSi (natural gas) unit installed last week.

I had a natural gas 50 gallon tank. Usually during the middle of the third shower, we were running out of hot water.

Why I got a tankless ... I have a large family. The water heater was starting to "run" our family. We had to "schedule" our showers with the appropriate breaks to allow the hot water to build back up again.

(It could have been that the hot water tank was going ... who knows.)

I have 4 kids and 2 adults (including myself) in my family. Getting ready for church on Sunday was a dream. The wife had a bath (we have a "soaker" tub (35 gallons?). I then bathed my two youngest. While I was bathing the two youngest, the two oldest, had their showers. Finally I jumped in the shower. This was done in about an hour and a half. There is no way I could have done this a week ago. A week ago, by the time the oldest would have started their showers, we would have been out of hot water.

The hot water heater no longer "runs" our life.

I will add ... with both showers going, I do notice a reduction in pressure ... maybe 10%. The shower however is still very enjoyable. The tempurature does not change. Prior, I would have to continually tweak the hot water up when two showers were going until there was no hot water left. Now ... I don't have to do anything but continue to enjoy the shower.

Will I make my money back ... who knows. In 10 years maybe. If you factor in the time that we save though not having to wait for hot water recovery however ... after last Sunday ... it has already paid itself off :)

I will add though I have lost a disciplining tool. I can no longer say "whoever is good gets to shower first!" ;)

You probably could have gotten a "properly sized" tank heater and saved yourself about 1k.

[DuckButter]

Indirect tank....the best way to make hot water. Does your tankless have a lifetime warranty? :happydance:
SuperStor, SuperStor, SuperStor.
I FULLY agree, I do far more indirects than tankless by far.
Tankless's are for the folks that have furnaces

[Dairylander]

This is kookie talk.

Each hotwater application is different and must be figured at the job to give a customer what they want/need while maximizing efficiency AND what they are paying for.

I don't believe Rick's motivation is to make his customers a few dollars richer.
J.C.
Wow. You come out name calling and then actually prove MY point.
What I was trying to convey is that there are many factors to weigh such as cost, energy independence, environmental impact, etc.
I picked on Rick because his anti-tankless argument is mostly a financial one.
So J.C., I couldn't agree more when you said, " Each hot water application is different and must be figured at the job to give a customer what they want/need."
In light of this, I disagree with talking customers out of tankless just because you've already done the calculations and you know they won't make their money back.
I just put in a dual flush Toto toilet in a house that I flipped. The unit cost me three times more than a stock toilet and I'll never see a penny of the those utility bill savings. But for the rest of that toilet's life it will reduce the water consumption in that house.
It's fine if you want to call me names, and it's fine if you don't understand my point, but try not to do both in the same post.

[DuckButter]

I am a user and not a plumber.

I just had a Rinnai 75LSi (natural gas) unit installed last week.

I had a natural gas 50 gallon tank. Usually during the middle of the third shower, we were running out of hot water.

Why I got a tankless ... I have a large family. The water heater was starting to "run" our family. We had to "schedule" our showers with the appropriate breaks to allow the hot water to build back up again.

(It could have been that the hot water tank was going ... who knows.)

I have 4 kids and 2 adults (including myself) in my family. Getting ready for church on Sunday was a dream. The wife had a bath (we have a "soaker" tub (35 gallons?). I then bathed my two youngest. While I was bathing the two youngest, the two oldest, had their showers. Finally I jumped in the shower. This was done in about an hour and a half. There is no way I could have done this a week ago. A week ago, by the time the oldest would have started their showers, we would have been out of hot water.

The hot water heater no longer "runs" our life.

I will add ... with both showers going, I do notice a reduction in pressure ... maybe 10%. The shower however is still very enjoyable. The tempurature does not change. Prior, I would have to continually tweak the hot water up when two showers were going until there was no hot water left. Now ... I don't have to do anything but continue to enjoy the shower.

Will I make my money back ... who knows. In 10 years maybe. If you factor in the time that we save though not having to wait for hot water recovery however ... after last Sunday ... it has already paid itself off :)

I will add though I have lost a disciplining tool. I can no longer say "whoever is good gets to shower first!" ;)

BINGO!!
I have no complaints on any tankless's I've installed...many comments similar to yours.

I would ask one little favor, if you wouldn't mind....
Turn on as many hot fixtures as you can...tell us how many fixtures it took before the flow restrictor kicks on.
Would be FANTASTIC to see an actual real time "experiment" for us....I've done it for customers and it's nice to watch how many it takes.
It does depend on how many gpm the heater is rated for, but I have to assume you have a whole home model.

[theoak]

You probably could have gotten a "properly sized" tank heater and saved yourself about 1k.

Oh ... you're probably right ;)

I was pretty cramped in my space requirements however, so I am not sure how much larger I could have gone. Going larger would mean more natural gas usage too.

I had 4 bids done. What was interesting is that from the lowest to the highest was about $1500. I had three packed somewhat close together (within $600), and then the last was way out there. They all recommended the same setup and equipment however. None of them recommended another tank (now it could be because they make more money off of a tankless???).

Granted, right now, I might still be in the "honeymoon" phase, hopefully in a year my opinion will be the same :)

I did actually speak to a few people in my area that had them (I asked for references from the installers plus other contacts). One guy even had his for about a year and still loved it.

I am thinking that I did my homework fairly well ...

[DuckButter]

Wow. You come out name calling and then actually prove MY point.
What I was trying to convey is that there are many factors to weigh such as cost, energy independence, environmental impact, etc.
I picked on Rick because his anti-tankless argument is mostly a financial one.
So J.C., I couldn't agree more when you said, " Each hot water application is different and must be figured at the job to give a customer what they want/need."
In light of this, I disagree with talking customers out of tankless just because you've already done the calculations and you know they won't make their money back.
I just put in a dual flush Toto toilet in a house that I flipped. The unit cost me three times more than a stock toilet and I'll never see a penny of the those utility bill savings. But for the rest of that toilet's life it will reduce the water consumption in that house.
It's fine if you want to call me names, and it's fine if you don't understand my point, but try not to do both in the same post.
Good choice of toilet, seems were completely on the same page as far as tankless is concerned.
When you say "I installed" I think (hope) you meant "your plumber installed"....especially on the tankless's.

[theoak]

BINGO!!
I have no complaints on any tankless's I've installed...many comments similar to yours.

I would ask one little favor, if you wouldn't mind....
Turn on as many hot fixtures as you can...tell us how many fixtures it took before the flow restrictor kicks on.
Would be FANTASTIC to see an actual real time "experiment" for us....I've done it for customers and it's nice to watch how many it takes.
It does depend on how many gpm the heater is rated for, but I have to assume you have a whole home model.

As stated, I have the Rinnai 75LS. It is "rated" for 7.5 gpm. Realistically though however, it probably hovers around 4.5 to 5.5 gpm depending on the season.

A typical shower I am told is 2.5 gpm. However, you typically do not run a shower at full hot. So lets say 2 gpm of hot water is being used. So using some rough math, I should be able to run two showers and maybe a tap before it really has problems keeping up.

I also have the Rinnai set to 120 degrees (the default). I have heard of a "trick" where you can set it to 130, for example. That way in a shower, you would be using less hot water (maybe 1.75 gpm of hot water now). Due to the fact that you are now using less hot water, that now leaves more hot water for other sources. (Granted, you are wasting energy because you now have to cool more of the water that you just heated.)

It all depends on my incoming water temperature too. Right now I can have 2 showers going and not notice much. In the winter ... who knows? Worse case scenario though is lets say that I can only run 1 shower at a time. I am still okay with that because I am still better off than when I had the tank. With the tank, on the third shower I was out of hot water. Here, I can have shower (1st), after shower (2nd), after shower (3rd), after shower (4th) and still have hot water.

As far as your experiment goes. That is something I was thinking of doing myself. Super busy the next few days though ... give me a week or so.

[DuckButter]

Oh ... you're probably right ;)

I was pretty cramped in my space requirements however, so I am not sure how much larger I could have gone. Going larger would mean more natural gas usage too.

I had 4 bids done. What was interesting is that from the lowest to the highest was about $1500. I had three packed somewhat close together (within $600), and then the last was way out there. They all recommended the same setup and equipment however. None of them recommended another tank (now it could be because they make more money off of a tankless???).
My guess is the highest bid was directly proportional to the size ad they have in the yellow pages.
In the same respect, low prices are often guys that might cut corners, rush the job, or slip in cheaper stock that won't hold up just to get the job up front.
As far as the size of the heater meaning it'll use more gas...not at all, in fact the higher output tankless's have a tendancy to be higher efficiency in some cases.

Granted, right now, I might still be in the "honeymoon" phase, hopefully in a year my opinion will be the same :)

I did actually speak to a few people in my area that had them (I asked for references from the installers plus other contacts). One guy even had his for about a year and still loved it.

I am thinking that I did my homework fairly well ...
Make absolutely sure you flush it at least once a year, the installer should have put draw-offs on hot & cold to enable you to attach a hose with a pump and cycle vinegar through a bucket, if not....that may explain the lower cost to install it over other bids.

Also, please...try the "experiment" I mentioned...would be pretty cool to see how many fixtures will run before it drops off.

[DuckButter]

As stated, I have the Rinnai 75LS. It is "rated" for 7.5 gpm. Realistically though however, it probably hovers around 4.5 to 5.5 gpm depending on the season.

A typical shower I am told is 2.5 gpm. However, you typically do not run a shower at full hot. So lets say 2 gpm of hot water is being used. So using some rough math, I should be able to run two showers and maybe a tap before it really has problems keeping up.

I also have the Rinnai set to 120 degrees (the default). I have heard of a "trick" where you can set it to 130, for example. That way in a shower, you would be using less hot water (maybe 1.75 gpm of hot water now). Due to the fact that you are now using less hot water, that now leaves more hot water for other sources. (Granted, you are wasting energy because you now have to cool more of the water that you just heated.)

It all depends on my incoming water temperature too. Right now I can have 2 showers going and not notice much. In the winter ... who knows? Worse case scenario though is lets say that I can only run 1 shower at a time. I am still okay with that because I am still better off than when I had the tank. With the tank, on the third shower I was out of hot water. Here, I can have shower (1st), after shower (2nd), after shower (3rd), after shower (4th) and still have hot water.

As far as your experiment goes. That is something I was thinking of doing myself. Super busy the next few days though ... give me a week or so.

You'll find it takes 4 fixtures to "kill" the flow at this time of year....done it on a Rheem 7.4.
Guy freaked when we had two showers, a kit Sink, lav on and he turned his 6 GPM roman tub filler on and it all dropped.
I had to point out that it was highly unlikely he'd ever need to have all the hot water on in his house at any given time.
(Even the tub filler was hot only, all 6 gpm as opposed to the usual mixture of hot/cold)
As for increasing the temperature...DON'T!
If I recall it voids the warranty & drops the efficiency....stick with the 120 setting.

Unless you find otherwise in your owners manual, I wouldn't suggest it.

[theoak]

...
Make absolutely sure you flush it at least once a year, the installer should have put draw-offs on hot & cold to enable you to attach a hose with a pump and cycle vinegar through a bucket, if not....that may explain the lower cost to install it over other bids.


Yes, I actually called Rinnai on this one too. The "draw-offs" are part of the "standard" install kit. When I interviewed the installers, all were well versed on the flushing and stated that they did that as part of their install. The installer even went so far as to give me a little "training" exercise on cleaning the inbound water filter. He advised me to clean it once or twice during the next two weeks as with the new install, there may be debris in the line from the installation that needs to get flushed out. He then advised me to check on the filter periodically as general maintenance. I have read posts where people complained that they have lost water pressure, cleaned their filter, and bingo, water pressure again.

Also, please...try the "experiment" I mentioned...would be pretty cool to see how many fixtures will run before it drops off.


See post above ...

[theoak]

...
As for increasing the temperature...DON'T!
If I recall it voids the warranty & drops the efficiency....stick with the 120 setting.

Unless you find otherwise in your owners manual, I wouldn't suggest it.

Technically I can increase the temperature to 140 without voiding the warranty.

Also, that is the highest that I could set it at anyway. If I wanted to go higher, I would need a new panel that could go up to 180 (I think). If I went that route however, the warranty would change to "commercial" versus "residential". So basically, my warranty would get cut in half.

For now I will keep it at the 120. I am a little concerned with the kids too if I start cranking it up.

[DuckButter]

Technically I can increase the temperature to 140 without voiding the warranty.

Also, that is the highest that I could set it at anyway. If I wanted to go higher, I would need a new panel that could go up to 180 (I think). If I went that route however, the warranty would change to "commercial" versus "residential". So basically, my warranty would get cut in half.

For now I will keep it at the 120. I am a little concerned with the kids too if I start cranking it up.

I s'pose you could put a mixing valve on the outlet side and increase the temp to 140, fractionally increasing the output @ 120 by 1/6th....not at all worth the cost and bother atop the warranty issue.

As far as the "experiment" request, you'd mentioned two showers with a slight drop.
I mean trying it until you get a substantial drop, you'll likely see what I mean after 4 fixtures at once.

[Masterplumb]

Oh ... you're probably right ;)

I was pretty cramped in my space requirements however, so I am not sure how much larger I could have gone. Going larger would mean more natural gas usage too.

I had 4 bids done. What was interesting is that from the lowest to the highest was about $1500. I had three packed somewhat close together (within $600), and then the last was way out there. They all recommended the same setup and equipment however. None of them recommended another tank (now it could be because they make more money off of a tankless???).

Granted, right now, I might still be in the "honeymoon" phase, hopefully in a year my opinion will be the same :)

I did actually speak to a few people in my area that had them (I asked for references from the installers plus other contacts). One guy even had his for about a year and still loved it.

I am thinking that I did my homework fairly well ...

I am glad you are happy with your unit, I wasn't trying to be fecetious. If you are positive that a bigger tank would definitely mean more gas maybe you should hit the books again.;)

[theoak]

I am glad you are happy with your unit, I wasn't trying to be fecetious. If you are positive that a bigger tank would definitely mean more gas maybe you should hit the books again.;)

Yup ... you probably got me there ... :o

[JCsPlumbing]

Wow. You come out name calling and then actually prove MY point.
What I was trying to convey is that there are many factors to weigh such as cost, energy independence, environmental impact, etc.
I picked on Rick because his anti-tankless argument is mostly a financial one.
So J.C., I couldn't agree more when you said, " Each hot water application is different and must be figured at the job to give a customer what they want/need."
In light of this, I disagree with talking customers out of tankless just because you've already done the calculations and you know they won't make their money back.
I just put in a dual flush Toto toilet in a house that I flipped. The unit cost me three times more than a stock toilet and I'll never see a penny of the those utility bill savings. But for the rest of that toilet's life it will reduce the water consumption in that house.
It's fine if you want to call me names, and it's fine if you don't understand my point, but try not to do both in the same post.

What name did I call you? Please list in the response. "Kookie talk" is my joking way of saying this doesn't make sense.

I haven't proved your point at all. You stated we should consider tankless to gain energy independence from foreign countries when that has yet to be proven true. If you really believed that you would have put in an electric. Don't get upset with others just because many of those with experience disagree with your installation or reasoning for such.

I also disagree with "talking" a customer out of anything. I simply present the total facts of all situations and put the power to decide in their hands while making sure things are code compliant.

You partially quoted my post as to what you wanted or agreed/disagreed with but you need to take all of the information as a whole. Just like assessing hot water needs.

What licenses in your state do you hold? What tankless certifications do you have? How many different brands have you installed? How many water heaters have you installed? Most flippers don't hold any credentials in my experience, usually get only the information they want, and leave the rest with disregard to the truth or results. Hope that's not your case.

I didn't call you a name. I understand completely the point you were attempting to make. You just didn't make it.

J.C.

[Dairylander]

What name did I call you? Please list in the response. "Kookie talk" is my joking way of saying this doesn't make sense.

You partially quoted my post as to what you wanted or agreed/disagreed with but you need to take all of the information as a whole.

J.C.
I don't know how things are in North Carolina, but where I'm from calling someone "kookie" is far from polite.

I only quoted the parts of your post that I was responding to. In my opinion that makes a thread a more coherent read.

To sum up:
The OP asks whether to do power vent or tankless.
An economic debate ensues.
I mention that there are factors other than money to be considered.
J.C. calls me a kook.

I didn't mean to cause digression of the thread, so I will retire from it.
-Dairy

[PLUMBER RICK]

I have had a few that insist on tankless regardless of price when it serves them to have a heater that won't run out of hot water, despite my pointing out that they won't make the money back in ten years.

I have to wonder Rick, what do you say to a customer who insists on one in that case?

considering my buddy who just sold his company and had 20 employees and was in business close to 30 years only sold a few to demanding customers. he never sold them to sell them.

remember, we are the trusted experts. if the customer is smarter than us, then they are smart enough to install it themselves:D so far, my customers have not outsmarted me yet:rolleyes:

all of my customers trust my opinion and my facts. so far there has not been 1 of my customers that has installed a tankless based on my facts. sure there are new customers that have them, before i became their plumber and over 50% of them are not properly installed. either the venting, gas, recirc, is wrong.

the best one was on a beach house inspection. i was there to camera the sewer line for an escrow inspection. as i went into the basement to find the c/o. i saw the newly installed tankless. who couldn't notice the 1/2'' gas line, the upside down venting and the best ever. the reversed gas meter. i let the new owner know the issues and she said it was inspected by the city when they did the repipe:rolleyes:

of course within 2 months of moving in she called me to inspect why she was not getting enough hot water and she lived by herself.

of course i referred her back to my original findings 2 months prior.

after i moved the heater outside, replaced the 1/2'' gas line to 3/4'' and reversed the gas meter and earthquake valve, she could finally take a real shower.

i know what i charged her. i don't what the original owner paid for the installation.

rick.

[JCsPlumbing]

I don't know how things are in North Carolina, but where I'm from calling someone "kookie" is far from polite.

I only quoted the parts of your post that I was responding to. In my opinion that makes a thread a more coherent read.

To sum up:
The OP asks whether to do power vent or tankless.
An economic debate ensues.
I mention that there are factors other than money to be considered.
J.C. calls me a kook.

I didn't mean to cause digression of the thread, so I will retire from it.
-Dairy

This makes me chuckle to say to what I assume is a grown man.....I apologize if you felt offended. I did not call you a Kook. :)

[PLUMBER RICK]

I picked on Rick because his anti-tankless argument is mostly a financial one.

100% absolutely wrong:eek:

if you know anything at all about me, which you don't. my decisions are based on experience and knowledge. my customers are also in the top 5% income bracket. more than 75% of the homes i work in are a million dollars plus. some are over 10 million and then there are the few that are 20 million plus. my customers can afford anything out there.

what it comes down to is real facts. why do you want a tankless? so far there has not been i customer of mine switch to tankless after a 10 minute chat.

let me quote a conversation i had with a noritz sales rep last year.

"tankless are for tree huggers" his words exactly:eek:

also as another has mentioned. our water use is more demanding than what the tankless was originally designed for. the manufacturers have gone back from saying an energy saver. they have also dropped their smaller btu heaters and have upped the units to higher btu's and recovery.

the only advantage i see for a tankless is physical size and space requirements.

maybe a new construction building will no longer need a dedicated room for a tank heater. but i no longer do new construction. 15 years was enough. i'm not interested in remodels anymore. so when a customers calls for a water heater leak, over half of them inquire about a tankless. none of them have ever taken me up on it. and remember they can afford anything money can buy.
funny as i'm also the least expensive guy here:shrug:.

so next time i get an inquiry on a tankless, i'll put you on a 3 way call and we can debate the issue with the customer. if you can convince them to install a tankless, i'll install it for them:D p.m. me with a contact number and i'll give you a call when it comes in;).

rick.

[DuckButter]

There's nothing to argue.
Tankless are definitely suitable for some, not suitable for others.
Making an across the board decision to completely black list them is silly.

And, for the record...hour per hour I make out better installing a tank type...in and out fast work.

[PLUMBER RICK]

BINGO!!
I have no complaints on any tankless's I've installed...many comments similar to yours.

I would ask one little favor, if you wouldn't mind....
Turn on as many hot fixtures as you can...tell us how many fixtures it took before the flow restrictor kicks on.
Would be FANTASTIC to see an actual real time "experiment" for us....I've done it for customers and it's nice to watch how many it takes.
It does depend on how many gpm the heater is rated for, but I have to assume you have a whole home model.

1 bathtub with no flow restrictor will max out a tankless. most tankless are in the 7-9 gpm range with a delta factor of 50 degree rise. the 199k bradford book i just looked at is rated at 4.26gpm at 77 degreee rise. this is the only rating it shows. 84% efficency.

rick.

[DUNBAR]

I ate dinner tonight




and didn't wash my hands first.

[PLUMBER RICK]

Yes, I actually called Rinnai on this one too. The "draw-offs" are part of the "standard" install kit. When I interviewed the installers, all were well versed on the flushing and stated that they did that as part of their install. The installer even went so far as to give me a little "training" exercise on cleaning the inbound water filter. He advised me to clean it once or twice during the next two weeks as with the new install, there may be debris in the line from the installation that needs to get flushed out. He then advised me to check on the filter periodically as general maintenance. I have read posts where people complained that they have lost water pressure, cleaned their filter, and bingo, water pressure again.



See post above ...


i'm glad you are able to understand the importance of flushing. i can't get my customers to even flush their heaters 2 times a year. this takes an ordinary garden hose and typically a screwdriver to turn on the hose bibb for 30 seconds.

i doubt less than 10% of the tankless owners are well enough versed and equipped to properly flush out their own tankless heaters.
the sales rep told me the going price is $200-250 for a flush:eek:

invest in a pump and a couple of washing machine hoses, a 5 galllon bucket and some white vinegar. read the book and save some money.
$200 will buy a nice pump and a lot of vinegar. make sure to properly flush out the residue and vinegar when finished before going out of bypass.

otherwise you'll smell like a salad:D

rick.

[DuckButter]

I ate dinner tonight




and didn't wash my hands first.

I like apple pie.

[NHMaster3015]

I"ve sat back and let this thing take on a life of it's own. It's been kind o fun. Anyhoooo. here's what I do when a customer asks me about tankless wter heaters. I give them the literature. I give them the price. Then I let them make a decision. Wether or not I like or hate them makes do difference. Same with solar. There is a contingent of folks that just plain want it. Either because they think they are saving money. Doing the "green" thing or most likley just want to one up the neighbor. If they are going to spend the money, it may just as well go into my pockets.

[Service Guy]

I"ve sat back and let this thing take on a life of it's own. It's been kind o fun. Anyhoooo. here's what I do when a customer asks me about tankless wter heaters. I give them the literature. I give them the price. Then I let them make a decision. Wether or not I like or hate them makes do difference. Same with solar. There is a contingent of folks that just plain want it. Either because they think they are saving money. Doing the "green" thing or most likley just want to one up the neighbor. If they are going to spend the money, it may just as well go into my pockets.

Right on!:thumbup2:

[JCsPlumbing]

I"ve sat back and let this thing take on a life of it's own. It's been kind o fun. Anyhoooo. here's what I do when a customer asks me about tankless wter heaters. I give them the literature. I give them the price. Then I let them make a decision. Wether or not I like or hate them makes do difference. Same with solar. There is a contingent of folks that just plain want it. Either because they think they are saving money. Doing the "green" thing or most likley just want to one up the neighbor. If they are going to spend the money, it may just as well go into my pockets.

Like I said earlier, "I put in $650.00 kitchen faucets that do the same as $75.00 Deltas."

Sometimes people buy based on feel.

J.C.

[ToUtahNow]

So when you install tankless water heaters is it at T&M or flat-rate?

Mark :grin-devilish:

[JCsPlumbing]

Both Mark. I sometimes stand on a sectional to reach things and use a drum to rest tools on. :D

J.C.

[cpw]

Right.
I betcha the recovery on your indirect is pretty dam fast though...huh?
Yep. My original post was wrong, it isn't 200k BTUs it is 119K or so, but 200 gallons of hot water (depends on the rise, I have my thermostat set at 130 not 120, and our ground water is probably cooler at least in winter than the manufacturer thinks); but yes it does recover very well.


I only skimmed your post (things'er getting' a bit verbose here) and got the impression you had a boiler tankless...or maybe you do have one the feeds the indirect.
The tankless heaters have an array of 3/4" copper pipe with fins, much like what you see on baseboard heat elements, they're engineered to "suck up" much more of the heat than a tank type can.
A tank has an opening in the middle of the tank, with a diverter that helps to take some of the heat and transfer it to the tank, but they generally only "suck up" 60% of the heat that passes through.

That actually sounds like something pretty compelling. If the natural gas tanked heaters are throwing heat out their flue instead of into the water that I can see as a real advantage.

The better solution [not for us as individuals, but for the world at large] though might seem to be the tanked models getting to be as efficient as the indirect or tankless. :)

[DuckButter]

[/b]
Yep. My original post was wrong, it isn't 200k BTUs it is 119K or so, but 200 gallons of hot water (depends on the rise, I have my thermostat set at 130 not 120, and our ground water is probably cooler at least in winter than the manufacturer thinks); but yes it does recover very well.


That actually sounds like something pretty compelling. If the natural gas tanked heaters are throwing heat out their flue instead of into the water that I can see as a real advantage.

The better solution [not for us as individuals, but for the world at large] though might seem to be the tanked models getting to be as efficient as the indirect or tankless. :)
I think you might be mistaken on the 200 gallon assessment, unless thats a reference to recovery.
IF you actually have a 200 gallon tank, you're good to go for a 3 jacuzzi home when you know all 3 will be in use simultaneously.

As far as high efficiency tank types, take a peek at this...Heat Transfer Products - Phoenix Gas Fired Water Heater (http://www.htproducts.com/phoenix.html)

[cpw]

I think you might be mistaken on the 200 gallon assessment, unless thats a reference to recovery.
IF you actually have a 200 gallon tank, you're good to go for a 3 jacuzzi home when you know all 3 will be in use simultaneously.
Yes, I wasn't clear. Recovery is 200 gallons, the tank is only 80.

[DUNBAR]

Somebody please prove to me in consensus or factual data that given the life of a tankless heater, that the efficiency of its nature is considered the same as the day it was first installed.



Then tell me what we already know with tank heaters; they lose efficiency from day one, the end user looks at it, that's it. No maintenance whatsoever and that's the majority, not the minority.


Taking it a step further,


No one has provided proof whether what side of the fence your on that on a tankless would you be able to prove to the mfg. beyond a reasonable doubt that you DID do the recommended flushing and when the unit started running bad numbers on effectiveness?

Remove the compartment and see that the solution that has to be non-caustic since the device must be able to condition potable water without harmful affect to human and animal consumption.....

now you're looking at something that does have buildup that a 40 minute solution isn't taking care of, delaying the heat up time.


And I'm just talking compartment, not those huge rolls of copper tubing that worked excellent in those pressure controlled burner assemblies on the old style ruuds....that still work even today, without a slew of electronics.

That, was endless hot water.


As soon as I tell people of the maintenance of these devices, the majority change their thinking real quick.

Let them bring this product to the area, I'm all for it. It can be good for a lot of reasons as point of use but start doing a house that has some square footage to it.....you're spending money.


I can't see how efficiency numbers are even a consideration these days with people building practically car washes for showers in their homes with 12" rain shower heads and 8 body sprays and the like.

NO water conservation, no regard to energy consumption because taking a 24 minute hot shower has its priority.

Of course I turn on my garden hose at night and go to bed, you're not paying the bill, right?

g'nite! :wave2:

[ToUtahNow]

One has to wonder if you guys who have owners "change their minds after they know the facts" are somewhat bias in your presentation.

Mark

[DuckButter]

One has to wonder if you guys who have owners "change their minds after they know the facts" are somewhat bias in your presentation.

Mark
I'll say it again, I make less per hour doing tankless...in part because there's only so much you can charge once they see the price difference.

I mention them as an option, I go over rough figures on savings vs convenience of not running out of hot water.
They decide.
To simply disuade people from tankless, especially when my local gas co encourages them with cash rebates, would be silly.

Also, the more options and information you give a customer, the more likely it is you get the job.

[theoak]

...
invest in a pump and a couple of washing machine hoses, a 5 galllon bucket and some white vinegar. read the book and save some money.
$200 will buy a nice pump and a lot of vinegar. make sure to properly flush out the residue and vinegar when finished before going out of bypass.

otherwise you'll smell like a salad:D

rick.

Any recommendations on a pump?

[DuckButter]

Any recommendations on a pump?

You don't need anything heavy-duty, as long as it has a hose bib connection on each side.
All you need is that, 3 washing machine hoses (double female ends) and a five gal bucket.

Use 3 to 4 gallons of white vinegar, dump into the bucket, connect the pump to induce flow from cold to hot...make ABSOLUTELY sure you unplug the electric, then let 'er rip for an hour or so.

Cost for the pump & bucket should be less than $50, the vinegar will cost you maybe $5 each year after.

Or, as proposed, you can just pay a plumber $100+ once a year to do this for you.

For the record, you're actually supposed to flush a tank type as well once a year, most don't and they reap the nefits when the tank gives up right after the warranty is done.

Make this part of your annual spring cleaning regimen and you'll save yourself a few years life, and service costs for repairs by inhibiting scale buildup on the internals.

[ToUtahNow]

I would add that flushing, whether it be a storage type or tank less heater, should be based on water chemistry more than it is on calendar days. Sometimes the recommended maintenance is not sufficient to protect the heater.

Mark

[wrench spinner]

Agreed! The higher calcium content (harder the water) the more frequently a tankless needs to be flushed. I used to always reccommend to my customers that we test there water chemistry before any further discussion of tanked vs. tankless.

[cpw]

How does one flush an indirect tank? Is it as simple as turning off the boiler and turning the hose bib at the bottom of the tank on for a few minutes?

[theoak]

You don't need anything heavy-duty, as long as it has a hose bib connection on each side.
...
Cost for the pump & bucket should be less than $50, the vinegar will cost you maybe $5 each year after.
...


When I google water pumps, I am not having the greatest luck.

Is this something I could find at my local Home Depot or Lowes?

Perhaps there is a good online retailer that one could recommend? (If this is not allowed, feel free to PM me.)

Any brand name recommendations?

As an aside ...

I figure I would flush the Rinnai as often as I change the filter on my furnace. Ideally they say every 3 months. Realistically, for me, more like 5 to 8 months. If I happen to be reasonably on time, say 3 to 5 months, with the furnace filters, maybe every other one. That should cover me pretty good I am thinking ...

(Thanks for all the tips in the past by the way! :thumbup2: )

[boillerman]

All you need is a utility sump pump with a hose bibb connection. Yes, hardwares should have them, inexpensive.

[boillerman]

How does one flush an indirect tank? Is it as simple as turning off the boiler and turning the hose bib at the bottom of the tank on for a few minutes?

Hopefully if you have any hardness in your water your plumber sold you
a water softener too. If the coils coat up on the domestic side, good luck.

[theoak]

All you need is a utility sump pump with a hose bibb connection. Yes, hardwares should have them, inexpensive.

Perfect ... "utility pump" and "sump pump".

I am finding all sorts of them now. I just needed to know the key words to look up.

I know what to look for now.

You guys rock! :thumbup2:

[NHMaster3015]

If you don't have one of these, you need one. This is without a doubt the most versitile, rugged indispensible pump you will ever own. It pumps everything and is capaple of 300lbs pressure. It can also be used as a suction pump for priming water pumps. Amazing and only about a hundred bucks. I've had one for over 30 years now. It's made by Silver King.



http://www.nucalgon.com/nucalgon/nucalgon_products.nsf/601b1f1be51688c686256b6f007679e4/a9d93207e0776d358625643b0055fac1/Body/0.110?OpenElement&FieldElemFormat=gif

[DuckButter]

I would add that flushing, whether it be a storage type or tank less heater, should be based on water chemistry more than it is on calendar days. Sometimes the recommended maintenance is not sufficient to protect the heater.

Mark
Extremely good point.
One area in my state I used to work in has a severe manganese problem, that stuff makes a calcium problem look like childs play.

After thought...I WOULD go out of my way to suggest not having a tankless in this area for that reason.

[boillerman]

If you don't have one of these, you need one. This is without a doubt the most versitile, rugged indispensible pump you will ever own. It pumps everything and is capaple of 300lbs pressure. It can also be used as a suction pump for priming water pumps. Amazing and only about a hundred bucks. I've had one for over 30 years now. It's made by Silver King.



http://www.nucalgon.com/nucalgon/nucalgon_products.nsf/601b1f1be51688c686256b6f007679e4/a9d93207e0776d358625643b0055fac1/Body/0.110?OpenElement&FieldElemFormat=gif
I've carried one for 25 years, but never really thought about using it for anything other than antifreeze or occasionally injecting a little pressure to a closed system. Never been able to get that kind of pressure with it though. And priming a pump, brilliant. Had the tool and didn't know it! Of course, for this particular application, he wants a pump he can turn on and walk away from.

[DuckButter]

I've carried one for 25 years, but never really thought about using it for anything other than antifreeze or occasionally injecting a little pressure to a closed system. Never been able to get that kind of pressure with it though. And priming a pump, brilliant. Had the tool and didn't know it! Of course, for this particular application, he wants a pump he can turn on and walk away from.

Does conjure a pretty cool image of Harry homeowner feverishly plodding away for an hour with it though.

[boillerman]

:bravo:

[theoak]

Does conjure a pretty cool image of Harry homeowner feverishly plodding away for an hour with it though.

Wait ... "Harry homewowner" ... almost sounds like you are calling me a "kook".

:eek:

( Totally joking ;) )

[DuckButter]

Wait ... "Harry homewowner" ... almost sound like you are calling me a "kook".

:eek:

( Totally joking ;) )

Nah...I only get into 80% of the needless spats on the forum.
You fall in the lucky 20.

[theoak]

For what it is worth ... here are some shots of my installation. I added the insulation after the fact. This will give those not familar an idea of what to expect ...

Also ... just got my gas bill. 13 therms. Last year I also used 13 therms. One might ask ... what about the 10 to 40 percent savings? I would have lost some gas in the installation. My wife is also due in 6 weeks and hence is in her last trimester ... she has been taking a lot baths lately. I also had the installation done in the middle of the bill cylce so this is not necesarilly a true reflection either. Plus ... I have been enjoying some REALLY long showers ... :D

So far so good. I would do it again ...

[Masterplumb]

For what it is worth ... here are some shots of my installation. I added the insulation after the fact. This will give those not familar an idea of what to expect ...

Also ... just got my gas bill. 13 therms. Last year I also used 13 therms. One might ask ... what about the 10 to 40 percent savings? I would have lost some gas in the installation. My wife is also due in 6 weeks and hence is in her last trimester ... she has been taking a lot baths lately. I also had the installation done in the middle of the bill cylce so this is not necesarilly a true reflection either. Plus ... I have been enjoying some REALLY long showers ... :D

So far so good. I would do it again ...

Is there a shut-off for the gas nearby? Please comeback and tell us how the bill was after a full months cycle. Good luck with the baby

[DuckButter]

Thank you for getting back to us!

And yes, baths & long showers tend to use more hot water...keep us appraised.

[theoak]

Is there a shut-off for the gas nearby? Please comeback and tell us how the bill was after a full months cycle. Good luck with the baby

Yes, at