Tankless HW heater vs tanked?

[CCusson]

Hi, we're about due to replace our hot water tank. Our existing tank is gas, and it's vented out through our chimney. Right now, there are only three of us living in the house, but that might expand to 4 in the next year or so (my wife and I and 1 child right now). I've got a couple of questions.

1. Is there such a thing as a high-efficiency hot water heater, so that I can vent it outside of the wall instead of through the chimney? We're looking to add on in the next 12-18 months, and if I can remove the chimney that runs through the middle of the house, that'd be great (it's a small bungalow, no fireplace).

2. What are the pro & cons of a tankless hotwater system?

3. Living a little outside of Boston, what's a reasonable price for a new tank installation (including removing the old one)

Thanks for your help!
-Chris

[wrench spinner]

1. Yes you can get a powervented Water Heater that will vent through the wall via a PVC Flue

2. Pro's to tankless:
a. You are not heating up 40 gallons of water when you need 5
Cons to a tankless:
a. You must make sure it is correctly sized or you will not have enough hot water
b. Your water chemistry must be good i.e. hardness, if the water is too hard the small passageways within the unit will get plugged up and the unit will not work
c. Finding a qualified installer is tough, they are not as simple as water heaters where they all pretty much go the same way. They can be quite different from one manufacturer to another
d. You may need to upsize you gas service to properly/efficiently run the unit! Your service may not even be large enough to service it. Just because it runs the Water Heater doesnt neccesarily mean that it will run the tankless.

e./3 As I do not feel comfortable with giving you a sight unseen price on this install I do feel comfortable telling you that it can be more than twice as much as a conventional water heater.


Do not steer away from a tankless water heater just becasue there are more cons than pros but keep in mind most of the cons are site specific. Tanklesses are NOT better than water heaters for every situation and sometimes they are better. I would recommend having a licensed proffesional visit your site and give you further direction, because if one of these will work for your house you are looking at a considerable increase in your efficiency and a considerable decrease in your gas bill!!

[Masterplumb]

You can get a high efficiency heater that vents through the sidewall or vents into a chimney.

There are not enough pro's for me to recommend a tankless to my customers.
Yea you will have endless amount of hot water, but try filling a deep tub while running a load in the w/m with hot water.

Some say the payback is as long as 20 years

The last install I did ran the customer $3800. with all the alterations that had to be done.

I doubt the customer will ever see any payback on that install.

Who knows how long these things will last. Dont forget the maintenance that must be done under certain water conditions.

The installs I have done ranged from 2-4k.

Enjoy being green ;) :D

[boillerman]

Water Heaters vent out the side walls instead of chimneys as often as not these days. Most of these are not high efficiency though, just vented with fans. High efficiency = $, are used mostly for commercial. Tankless = $. You only heat what you use with a tank version anyway, so what's the point in spending all the extra money to have 250,000 BTU's heat your water instead of 40,000? Unless you REALLY need the space.

[ridgidpipe]

I have the rinnia takless in my house
I got it at 1/2 of cost being a certified installer
I have seen my gas bill drop drastically
and they say that it will take about ten years to recoup what you would spend vs a normal water heater
as far as power vented TTW water heaters I have seen the cast just rise another 12 % on the bradford whites and in my opinion they will soon end up as much as a rinnia
I am still a firm believer in doing what is best for my customers so I would say if you have any intentions on moving within the next 5 to 10 years stick with the standard water heater you might just want to increase the size.

[Masterplumb]

I have the rinnia takless in my house
I got it at 1/2 of cost being a certified installer
I have seen my gas bill drop drastically
and they say that it will take about ten years to recoup what you would spend vs a normal water heater
as far as power vented TTW water heaters I have seen the cast just rise another 12 % on the bradford whites and in my opinion they will soon end up as much as a rinnia
I am still a firm believer in doing what is best for my customers so I would say if you have any intentions on moving within the next 5 to 10 years stick with the standard water heater you might just want to increase the size.

How do they know the payback time? Wouldn't they need to know the cost of the installation? Sounds like 10 years is a bit conservative to me. Around here 99.5% of the water heaters exhaust into a masonary chimney, relocating gas, water and flu increases the cost severely.

[JCsPlumbing]

How do they know the payback time? Wouldn't they need to know the cost of the installation? Sounds like 10 years is a bit conservative to me. Around here 99.5% of the water heaters exhaust into a masonary chimney, relocating gas, water and flu increases the cost severely.

What's interesting to me is the number of homeowners that think they can calculate all of this better than the plumber. With all of the homeshows & the internet they think they know best and always forget multiple things.

Teaches me something too. I can read books, webpages, watch homeshows also. But if I do much with electricity, HVAC, structural etc., I'm better off getting a professional in that field I can trust.

J.C.

[JCsPlumbing]

And Marianne Rivera sucks. :p

J.C.

[Masterplumb]

And Marianne Rivera sucks. :p

J.C.

Hey thats a cheapshot! Dont make me take a Jet Blue flight to N.C. to open up a can of whoop azz on ya like Captain Insane-o!

I eat at Mo's

http://www.mosnewyorkgrill.com/

[JCsPlumbing]

I eat N.C. BBQ out of a bucket with a wooden spoon. :D

And I don't know anything about baseball but thought I'd work you over you freakin' bum.

J.C.

[CCusson]

Hey guys,

thanks so much for the quick, thorough and extremely helpful posts!!

I will put this info to good use when it comes time to ask my plumber to install a new hot water tank- no tankless for me with the costs, but I'll ask him anyways.

Again, thanks for sharing your knowledge!

[DuckButter]

And Marianne Rivera sucks. :p

J.C.

Papelbon!!!!

[DuckButter]

Hi, we're about due to replace our hot water tank. Our existing tank is gas, and it's vented out through our chimney. Right now, there are only three of us living in the house, but that might expand to 4 in the next year or so (my wife and I and 1 child right now). I've got a couple of questions.

1. Is there such a thing as a high-efficiency hot water heater, so that I can vent it outside of the wall instead of through the chimney? We're looking to add on in the next 12-18 months, and if I can remove the chimney that runs through the middle of the house, that'd be great (it's a small bungalow, no fireplace).

2. What are the pro & cons of a tankless hotwater system?

3. Living a little outside of Boston, what's a reasonable price for a new tank installation (including removing the old one)

Thanks for your help!
-Chris

You're a perfect candidate for a tankless.
You'll pay anywhere from $2500 to $4000, depending on access to gas & water pipes as well as ease of installation & location.

Rule of thumb for a tankless is to figure a 1/3rd cut in your water heating gas bill...summer bill is a good measure, figuring stove useage into the equation (cooking).

The advantage to the tankless, aside from savings, is the unending hot water.

Disadvantages -
-You may need your gas main increased.
-They take slightly longer to heat water...not l more than 30 seconds longer than what you're used to in my experience.
-You WILL need to flush it annually (6 months is better) with vinegar, though you should drain a standard tank heater as often, most ignore that.
-If you plan to have more than three fixtures run simultaneously you may see a drop in flow depending on time of year (incoming water temperature is lower in the winter here) PROVIDED the heater is sized correctly to begin with (gpm's).

I have done a few in your area in Lexington & Arlington.
You will need to have permits pulled because the gas co will give you a $300 cash rebate for installing one and they require the info.

[Masterplumb]

Papelbon!!!!

You play Kevin Youkilis, I'll play Joba Chamberlain and throw the ball 100 mph at your head :wave2:

[PLUMBER RICK]

never sold a tankless to a customer. once i properly explained all the pros and cons, the customer has decided to stick with a proven tank.

the payback is not there. the maintenance is required to maintain the warranty. the majority of customers never flush a tank water heater. not flushing a tankless is a voided warranty and a shortened heat exchanger life.

new venting and gas piping are typically required to complete the installation.

p.s. i have repaired many tankless that were not properly installed.

i also bought one for my house and never installed it as my 40 gallon tank heater is still working 18 years now:D

do a search on tankless to get all the past threads and input.

i doubt that you'll be interested in a tankless once you read them.

rick.

[DuckButter]

Sounds like he's pretty interested as is.

Brings to question as to why tankless's offer ten year warranties across the board as opposed to tank types having variable warranty's depending on anode size.

As far as extra venting...he's looking to eliminate the chimney...sounds like he'll have to deal with venting one way or another.

A 20 year old water heater was made to higher standards, I see loads of older tanks that lasted way past their warranty's.
None last that long now....barring SuperStor, which is in a differnt category altogether.
The MFG's seem to have caught on that it wasn't lucrative.

[DuckButter]

You play Kevin Youkilis, I'll play Joba Chamberlain and throw the ball 100 mph at your head :wave2:
NO!
You be Jeter...I'm Beckett.

[The Wood Meister]

so why can't he/anyone use the 220 volt tankless and do away with the gas line AND vent completely?

[PLUMBER RICK]

so why can't he/anyone use the 220 volt tankless and do away with the gas line AND vent completely?

unless you live next door to the nuclear power plant, you won't have enough amperage to heat up a cup of water:idea2:

rick.

[Killertoiletspider]

never sold a tankless to a customer. once i properly explained all the pros and cons, the customer has decided to stick with a proven tank.

the payback is not there. the maintenance is required to maintain the warranty. the majority of customers never flush a tank water heater. not flushing a tankless is a voided warranty and a shortened heat exchanger life.

new venting and gas piping are typically required to complete the installation.

p.s. i have repaired many tankless that were not properly installed.

i also bought one for my house and never installed it as my 40 gallon tank heater is still working 18 years now:D

do a search on tankless to get all the past threads and input.

i doubt that you'll be interested in a tankless once you read them.

rick.

Well there you have it.

Tankless water heaters are worthless.

The fact that the one I installed in a a large bakery with twenty fixtures that work just fine have no bearing on the subject, even though I installed it ten years ago.

[ToUtahNow]

During new construction without question I would go tankless. As a retrofit I think you need to do an inventory of what it will take versus savings. My 70-gallon water heater shares a platform with my 60-gallon compressor. If it were not for the gas line I would install a tankless just to save room.

Mark

[PLUMBER RICK]

Well there you have it.

Tankless water heaters are worthless.

The fact that the one I installed in a a large bakery with twenty fixtures that work just fine have no bearing on the subject, even though I installed it ten years ago.



if you want to talk about larrs and raypack heaters/ boilers, i've installed hundreds in both new construction and service.

but we are not talking commercial installations. i rather doubt the o.p. is talking anything more than a common residential installation.

it must be keeping you up late to monitor just my post. funny as most of the others in the tankless debate have my same feelings.

get some sleep and work on your facts. then i might actually take you serious.

rick.

hows that other forum treating you? you must be bored since you go both ways.

[Killertoiletspider]

The installation was a Takagi, but I probably will stick to the other forum, it has a lot less opinionated west coast fools that think they are god's gift to the plumbing industry.

You wouldn't last ten minutes in the market I work in.

[DuckButter]

if you want to talk about larrs and raypack heaters/ boilers, i've installed hundreds in both new construction and service.

but we are not talking commercial installations. i rather doubt the o.p. is talking anything more than a common residential installation.

it must be keeping you up late to monitor just my post. funny as most of the others in the tankless debate have my same feelings.

get some sleep and work on your facts. then i might actually take you serious.

rick.

hows that other forum treating you? you must be bored since you go both ways.

He's apparently happy on at least the three forums I know him on, as far as his opinion is concerned, I rate him up there with Mark...he knows his stuff.

Not at all looking to butt heads, but I personally think Tankless will eventually phase out tanks in the mainstream...once they get the prices down to Earthly figures.

Utah Mark says it VERY well, they're excellent on new structures where you have reign over running the pipe for them.
I have yet to get a single callback on any defect for a tankless I've installed except for one, a Bosch the homeowner had purchased at Blowes.

He now tells me he wishes he'd talked to me before getting the poiece of junk.

You seem dead-set against tanklless, I dunno why, but most plumbers that have installed them like them, excepting the price barrier.

There are always going to be opinions aside from your own.

[MrsSeatDown]

The installation was a Takagi, but I probably will stick to the other forum, it has a lot less opinionated west coast fools that think they are god's gift to the plumbing industry.

You wouldn't last ten minutes in the market I work in.

You seem opinionated too. Does that make you a Midwest fool? Is calling people names how you last in your market?

[PLUMBER RICK]

The installation was a Takagi, but I probably will stick to the other forum, it has a lot less opinionated west coast fools that think they are god's gift to the plumbing industry.

You wouldn't last ten minutes in the market I work in.

you would be better as that forum is just for pro plumbers and not designed to help the general public.

since this forum has always been for the general public to ask questions,

it was nice knowing you. stick with their help since i'm no help to you:clapping:

have fun with the pros and let me help the amateurs with my 33 years of plumbing.

too bad you never made it to the roundup. you would have been smoked too.

getting late you have a 7am start time with the guys.

rick.

[PLUMBER RICK]

He's apparently happy on at least the three forums I know him on, as far as his opinion is concerned, I rate him up there with Mark...he knows his stuff.

Not at all looking to butt heads, but I personally think Tankless will eventually phase out tanks in the mainstream...once they get the prices down to Earthly figures.

Utah Mark says it VERY well, they're excellent on new structures where you have reign over running the pipe for them.
I have yet to get a single callback on any defect for a tankless I've installed except for one, a Bosch the homeowner had purchased at Blowes.

He now tells me he wishes he'd talked to me before getting the poiece of junk.

You seem dead-set against tanklless, I dunno why, but most plumbers that have installed them like them, excepting the price barrier.

There are always going to be opinions aside from your own.

lets see the facts. we all seem to agree that the install price is 2 to 3 times the cost of a replacement tank heater.

heater, gas , vent.

we all agree that the heater needs to be flushed 1 to 2 times a year.

so lets use my current gas bill of $15.00 a month for my water heater, dryer and gas oven/ cook top. we'll keep the winter furnace out of the equation.

so please show me how to pay back the original cost plus the upkeep of the annual cleaning.

won't even think about the cost and delay of service parts and qualified service people. remember it's no longer a gas valve or thermocouple.

what did we ever do before tankless came here?

remember my 40 gallon $100 heater is 18 years old and i've never replaced anything. i do run the hose bibb 2 times a year for 30 seconds.

i do have a jacuzzi tub that joey uses.

now i have a bidet seat and a tankless for sale that nobody wants:rolling-eyes:

do the math and show me the numbers.

rick.

[ToUtahNow]

Holy cow everything does not need to be a competition. I have always figured I've learned more from those I disagree with than those I agree with. Sometimes you just need to agree to disagree and go on. This site should be about an exchange of information.

Mark

[MrsSeatDown]

Sometimes you just need to agree to disagree on go on.

Mark

How do you do this?:rotflmao1:

[DuckButter]

Rick, your in the habit of inviting those who don't agree with you to leave the forum and join the pro's forum...not the best way to promote ridgid...imho.
The other forum is growing rapidly...even I'm surprised at it.

As far as your accolades at the roundup...you might be surprised to learn that it was a social event, it wasn't televised on ESPN.
You won a trophy, but aside from that it bears no weight on anything aside from a game at a social gathering....confuses me as to why that keeps coming up...it doesn't solidify your debate on tankless water heaters.

Again, not wanting to butt heads, but the topic is tankless water heaters last I checked, not leave the forum if you disagree or who can smoke who at thumb wrestling.

[DuckButter]

Rick, in MA where it gets cold, a water heater will cost just a wee bit more than $15 a month...a leeetle bit.

[ToUtahNow]

How do you do this?:rotflmao1:

If you do not like "go on" you just don't use it.

Mark

[DuckButter]

Holy cow everything does not need to be a competition. I have always figured I've learned more from those I disagree with than those I agree with. Sometimes you just need to agree to disagree and go on. This site should be about an exchange of information.

Mark
THANK YOU!

I tried to press "thank you" twice, but it ran away on me!

Disagreement is the very HEART of the learning process...taking it personal or diverting it to a completely different topic wins no gain.

[ToUtahNow]

The fact that something does not make economical sense does not mean it doesn't make sense. If everything I did made economical since I would not have much fun.

Mark

[MrsSeatDown]

If everything I did made economical since I would not have much fun.

Mark

Sometimes things you do don't make grammatical sense either, but they sure are fun:nyaa-nyaa4:

[PLUMBER RICK]

Not at all looking to butt heads, but I personally think Tankless will eventually phase out tanks in the mainstream...once they get the prices down to Earthly figures.

Utah Mark says it VERY well, they're excellent on new structures where you have reign over running the pipe for them.
I have yet to get a single callback on any defect for a tankless I've installed except for one, a Bosch the homeowner had purchased at Blowes.

He now tells me he wishes he'd talked to me before getting the poiece of junk.

You seem dead-set against tanklless, I dunno why, but most plumbers that have installed them like them, excepting the price barrier.

There are always going to be opinions aside from your own.

lets see the facts. we all seem to agree that the install price is 2 to 3 times the cost of a replacement tank heater.

heater, gas , vent.

we all agree that the heater needs to be flushed 1 to 2 times a year.

so lets use my current gas bill of $15.00 a month for my water heater, dryer and gas oven/ cook top. we'll keep the winter furnace out of the equation.

so please show me how to pay back the original cost plus the upkeep of the annual cleaning.

won't even think about the cost and delay of service parts and qualified service people. remember it's no longer a gas valve or thermocouple.

what did we ever do before tankless came here?

remember my 40 gallon $100 heater is 18 years old and i've never replaced anything. i do run the hose bibb 2 times a year for 30 seconds.

i do have a jacuzzi tub that joey uses.

now i have a bidet seat and a tankless for sale that nobody wants:rolling-eyes:

do the math and show me the numbers.

rick.

Rick, your in the habit of inviting those who don't agree with you to leave the forum and join the pro's forum...not the best way to promote ridgid...imho.
The other forum is growing rapidly...even I'm surprised at it.

As far as your accolades at the roundup...you might be surprised to learn that it was a social event, it wasn't televised on ESPN.
You won a trophy, but aside from that it bears no weight on anything aside from a game at a social gathering....confuses me as to why that keeps coming up...it doesn't solidify your debate on tankless water heaters.

Again, not wanting to butt heads, but the topic is tankless water heaters last I checked, not leave the forum if you disagree or who can smoke who at thumb wrestling.

i gave you the facts and this is the best response you can answer it with?

yes it was a social gathering. but with 9 events planned there was a competition.

i guess his 10 minute jab was my reason for the roundup.

his commercial bakery installation has absolutely nothing to compare to the original question. a residential family installation.

i know form 4 years on the forum what the consensus of the others have stated. i doubt that his 2 months of being on this forum has given him enough of a chance to read back 4 years of others opinions.

all he has to do is a search on tankless and read the vast of other post.

but instead he attacks me on my opinion when there are a majority of us that agree on the tank vs. tankless debate.

rick.

[ToUtahNow]

Sometimes things you do don't make grammatical sense either, but they sure are fun:nyaa-nyaa4:

Sometimes even a firefighter stumbles on the way to a fire but their dog does not take a bite out of them for it.

Mark :hug:

[DuckButter]

Online concensus of opinions vs ten years for a Takagi in a commercial restaurant...I dunno, but seems like the word "facts" varies by definition.

As far as his attack...this might have spawned his response:

it must be keeping you up late to monitor just my post. funny as most of the others in the tankless debate have my same feelings.

get some sleep and work on your facts. then i might actually take you serious.

rick.

hows that other forum treating you? you must be bored since you go both ways.

It sometimes seems like you have to be right at all cost, I can personally attest to not finding your assessment of the hours I keep to be very friendly, nor boasting of winning a contest at the roundup.

I suspect he didn't like it either.

On topic, Takagi is a residential tankless, they're one of the more common names, along with Rinnai, Rheem, Paloma, or Noritz.

You might want to be open to the possibility that they aren't all junk heaps.

Also, here in MA $15 won't get you enough hot water for a pot of coffee.
The lowest hot water bill I have seen is $40 in the summer on an indirect run off a 90%+ boiler for a couple with no kids, they shower once a day.

Shave 1/3 off the $40 multiply by 12, then take $300 off the local gas co offers and you aren't so far off in terms of the cost of a powervent, which is required unless you want to dole out the cash to reline your chimney and stay with a draft vent.

You can usually break even within ten years depending on consumption, but when it comes time to replace, the cost is drastically lower because the piping & venting are all there.

I know you prolly wanna win the debate, but keep an open mind.

[MrsSeatDown]

Sometimes even a firefighter stumbles on the way to a fire but their dog does not take a bite out of them for it.

Mark :hug:

Sometimes the lifeguard forgets to take the buoy into the ocean, but they can still pull the drowning person out of the water.

[ToUtahNow]

Points well taken by all parties, now I think it's time to make nice so we do not lose the thread.

Mark

[ToUtahNow]

Sometimes the lifeguard forgets to take the boy into the ocean, but they can still pull the drowning person out of the water.

Touche! :bravo:

Mark

[MrsSeatDown]

Touche! :bravo:

Mark

Whatever! You can't cheat!:smack-head:You have to wait and catch me making a typo on my own merits:nyaa-nyaa4:

[ToUtahNow]

Whatever! You can't cheat!:nyaa-nyaa4:You have to wait and catch me making a typo on my own merits:smack-head:

But of course you are right.:rolling-eyes:

Mark :finger:

[MrsSeatDown]

But of course you are right.:rolling-eyes:

Mark :finger:

Brenda trained you well:clapping: Does she give lessons?:p

[ToUtahNow]

Brenda trained you well:clapping: Does she give lessons?:p

Yes but she charges more for girls.

Mark :loser: :rotflmao1:

[PLUMBER RICK]

On topic, Takagi is a residential tankless, they're one of the more common names, along with Rinnai, Rheem, Paloma, or Noritz.

You might want to be open to the possibility that they aren't all junk heaps.

Also, here in MA $15 won't get you enough hot water for a pot of coffee.
The lowest hot water bill I have seen is $40 in the summer on an indirect run off a 90%+ boiler for a couple with no kids, they shower once a day.

Shave 1/3 off the $40 multiply by 12, then take $300 off the local gas co offers and you aren't so far off in terms of the cost of a powervent, which is required unless you want to dole out the cash to reline your chimney and stay with a draft vent.

You can usually break even within ten years depending on consumption, but when it comes time to replace, the cost is drastically lower because the piping & venting are all there.

I know you prolly wanna win the debate, but keep an open mind.

remember that the installation is 2 to 3 times the cost of a tank type heater replacement.

so the $13 monthly savings based on your numbers, still won't even cover the cost of annual or semi annual required maintenance/ cleaning.

plus your ground water is much cooler than ours and therefore the recovery is no where as good as ours would be here.

for me i might have a $5.00 monthly savings. based on your numbers.

if you really want a sure fire way to save real money, go buy a new fridge and freezer if your's is over 10 years old. i saved $50.00 every 2 months when i replaced my own fridge:thumbup2::idea2:

look at the early 70's when there was a huge push for all electric and also solar domestic water heating. if it wasn't for the tax credits, it would have never paid back then.

i think i have only 1 customer that still has working solar. with 1100+ customers, this speaks for itself;)

now if the thankless were installed as a point of use heater, then i would like them better. a recirc system requires a separate tank/ (electric) to maintain the original warranty. otherwise it's down to 3 years. so now add the electrical cost for the recirc tank, and you're more than the monthly utility savings.

my hi efficiency washer would cause the tankless to cycle over 10 times just in the fill cycle.

there are plenty of ways to save money on utilities. a tankless is not going to pay for itself any time soon.

i actually assess my customers water and power bills. in l.a. they are billed every 2 months (residential) 1 month (commercial) along with a sewer surcharge. 10 minutes of looking at a years worth of utility bills will pay off in the first bill. (2 months).

$3500 worth of tankless will not pay off in 10 years. at least not with my customers.

anyone interested in a toto washlet seat or a noritz tankless:confused:

rick.

[MrsSeatDown]

Yes but she charges more for girls.

Mark :loser: :rotflmao1:

:bow-down:You win. Good Night :wave:

[DuckButter]

50 gal power vent installed....................... $1400

7+ gpm tankless installed (10 yr warranty) $3000

$15 saved/month over ten years .............. $1800


Replacing tankless with existing model ...... $2000

Having hot water regardless how long your
16 yr old daughter showers....................... priceless

[PLUMBER RICK]

50 gal power vent installed....................... $1400

7+ gpm tankless installed (10 yr warranty) $3000

$15 saved/month over ten years .............. $1800


Replacing tankless with existing model ...... $2000

Having hot water regardless how long your
16 yr old daughter showers....................... priceless

how about the required chemical flushing you do once or twice a year for a tankless to stay in warranty?

does $3000 cover the heater, gas line, vent line, plus the electrical?
power vents are not very common here for residential 40-75 gal. heaters.

the going rate according to the salesman from the essix co who sell the chemical and the pump is $200-250 a service.

i charge $125 with my own set up.

so there goes your yearly savings.

i can tell you from my experience that 90+% of my customers never have flushed their heaters. never have replaced their anode rods. never have touched their heaters since they were installed. less than 5% ever see a warranty issue. i typically only sell 6 year heaters as the warranty is a joke and the heaters are now prorated ever since the price went through the roof and the heaters went from $150 to over $450 under the warranty period. they refund your original cost and sell you one at the current cost. then add in the labor and parts. save the extra $100-150 for the longer warranty and use it down the road for a new heater in 10-20 years.

rick.

[NHMaster3015]

Have you noticed that all the products designed to save you tons of money all cost so damn much to purchase and install that most never really live up to the claims?
Nothing is for nothing and there's no one out there thats going to give you a break. Try and buy a pellett stove now. four to six grand and the pelletts have gone to almost 5 bucks a bag. Why? because oil is 5 bucks a gallon and there's no way in hell anyone is going to let you get a leg up. It's a F - U world we live in.

Solar - will never pay for itself or save you a dime
Ground water heat pumps - cost so much to install you will never see a return.
Tankless water heaters - cost and installation is more than the annual savings.
Burning wood. Wood is over 200 bucks a cord
Pelletts - 5 bucks a bag.

Life, no body get's out alive.

[JCsPlumbing]

Have you noticed that all the products designed to save you tons of money all cost so damn much to purchase and install that most never really live up to the claims?
Nothing is for nothing and there's no one out there thats going to give you a break. Try and buy a pellett stove now. four to six grand and the pelletts have gone to almost 5 bucks a bag. Why? because oil is 5 bucks a gallon and there's no way in hell anyone is going to let you get a leg up. It's a F - U world we live in.

Solar - will never pay for itself or save you a dime
Ground water heat pumps - cost so much to install you will never see a return.
Tankless water heaters - cost and installation is more than the annual savings.
Burning wood. Wood is over 200 bucks a cord
Pelletts - 5 bucks a bag.

Life, no body get's out alive.

Best assessment I've seen. The thing that's hard for me is installing something that I know is not exacly right for the customer. Percentages where someone needs a tankless are very small. But often a customer is insistent no matter what the math says. Went to a Rheem class where the rep showed the sales numbers and tankless is ever increasing regardless of what's right for the consumer.

I know what a tank will do and what a tankless will do and maintenance/problems associated with both. Majority of the time, no tankless. But a customer might be insistent and the math or bottom line is not as much of a concern. Alot buy by "feel".

I realized this when I put in a $650.00 kitchen faucet for someone. You know what it did? Put out hot and cold water just like a $75.00 Delta.

J.C.

P.S. Tankless Water Heater were not originally created to be more efficient. They were made for overseas use to gain as much sq. footage as possible.

[cpw]

So I'm probably in the anti-tankless crowd, because I'm not convinced I'm heating water when I don't need it. When my boiler has crapped out for several hours and then turns back on, the WH zone doesn't call for heat, so I can't really be losing much. Are there any citations anywhere (not by tankless manufacturers) on how much you lose (say in BTUs/hr) on a regular water heater?

[JCsPlumbing]

I've looked for that too CPW. Standby heat loss along with maybe a pilot. It's not as great as the tankless promoters would like you to believe in my opinion but I really would like to see hard numbers.

I have an outside tank heater in an insulated hut. I recently flushed it (about a gallon. No sediment) and turned the thermostat back and forth. Worked the ball valve & T&P also. Put it all back together. The next morinings shower was as hot as ever. That evening was only lukewarm. I go out and see what's up. I forgot to put the thermostat in the right position! It was turned down to pilot and my water was still hot for an estimated 12 hours. So the standby firing and heat loss doesn't seem to be what tankless promoters claim.

J.C.

[PLUMBER RICK]

another waste of money are the instant hot water dispensers.

at 750 watts of power to keep 1/2 gallon of water at 190 degrees for the convenience of not having to heat up a cup of water for tea or coffee.

but here is where it gets fun.

the original warranty is 1 year. some don't last the year and others last 5+ years. if you don't use them on a regular basis like every 2 weeks, they would burn out. the water in them would evaporate with the heating cycle. the newer ones have a resettable thermal fuse.

the heater also cycles 3 to 4 times an hour just to maintain the high temperature of the water. multiply this x 24 hours a day and do the math on 750 watts.

how do i know this? very simple. i've replaced and installed hundreds of them. a good percentage of my customers have them. including my parents:D anytime i work in the kitchen on a faucet, filter, disposal, i hear the heater cycle at 15-20 minute intervals. this while it's not being used.

one of the cheapest things to do is to install a plug in timer for the heater. set it to turn off during the odd ball hours. even if it's just 6 hours a night, 25% savings or 8 hours 33% savings. it will also prolong the life of the heater due to reheating and potentially a burn out due to lack of use.

by the way, joey wanted an instant hot when we got married.

i showed her how to use the microwave for 30 seconds:D

plus my kitchen cabinet is not water damaged like the majority are that have a instant hot that's leaked.

will i still continue to install instant hots? yes, but i do warn and inform my customers just like i've stated here. and all get a timer. plus with insinkerator, i can extend the 1 year warranty for free to 3 years on their high end models;) can't do nothing about the waste of power during the day, but i try:rolleyes:

rick.

[Dairylander]

The majority of the tankless naysayers on this thread are boiling the entire argument down to penny pinching.
Let's not forget the global perspective here. We have lost almost 4,500 of our boys in the war in Iraq for many reasons; one of which is to stabilize the region that supplies our fuel.
Forgive the harsh reference, but one must remember that energy conservation is not just about lowering one's utility bill.
The United States imports natural gas from Canada, Mexico, Algeria, Australia, Egypt, Equatorial, Guinea, Malaysia, Nigeria, Norway, Oman, Qatar, Trinidad and Tobago, and the United Arab Emirates.
Energy independence = national security.
I had a tankless put in my mom's house a few years ago. Will it pay for itself? Not in her lifetime. Is it still worth it? Definitely.
If we all do something small we can effect real change.
If we all listen to Rick we'll die a few dollars richer.

[drtyhands]

The majority of the tankless naysayers on this thread are boiling the entire argument down to penny pinching.
Let's not forget the global perspective here. We have lost almost 4,500 of our boys in the war in Iraq for many reasons; one of which is to stabilize the region that supplies our fuel.
Forgive the harsh reference, but one must remember that energy conservation is not just about lowering one's utility bill.
The United States imports natural gas from Canada, Mexico, Algeria, Australia, Egypt, Equatorial, Guinea, Malaysia, Nigeria, Norway, Oman, Qatar, Trinidad and Tobago, and the United Arab Emirates.
Energy independence = national security.
I had a tankless put in my mom's house a few years ago. Will it pay for itself? Not in her lifetime. Is it still worth it? Definitely.
If we all do something small we can effect real change.
If we all listen to Rick we'll die a few dollars richer.
Not me,I make BIG money off every install,Go tankless!!!

Everyone here knows what sarcasm looks like.....Yes?....GOOD!!!

[Masterplumb]

The majority of the tankless naysayers on this thread are boiling the entire argument down to penny pinching.
Let's not forget the global perspective here. We have lost almost 4,500 of our boys in the war in Iraq for many reasons; one of which is to stabilize the region that supplies our fuel.
Forgive the harsh reference, but one must remember that energy conservation is not just about lowering one's utility bill.
The United States imports natural gas from Canada, Mexico, Algeria, Australia, Egypt, Equatorial, Guinea, Malaysia, Nigeria, Norway, Oman, Qatar, Trinidad and Tobago, and the United Arab Emirates.
Energy independence = national security.
I had a tankless put in my mom's house a few years ago. Will it pay for itself? Not in her lifetime. Is it still worth it? Definitely.
If we all do something small we can effect real change.
If we all listen to Rick we'll die a few dollars richer.

If you want energy independence we need to drill here. Thats the only way it will happen, not by installing tankless heaters.

[Dairylander]

If you want energy independence we need to drill here. Thats the only way it will happen, not by installing tankless heaters.
I don't know about you, Masterplumb, but I can't afford to buy an oil drilling rig or a nuclear reactor.
However, I can afford a tankless heater, high efficiency furnace, CFLs, extra attic insulation, etc...
These baby steps accumulate to something bigger.
It's analogous to your drilling solution. It takes legislation to open drilling. Legislation is passed by the elected officials we vote for. Your one tiny vote doesn't amount to anything on its own, just like one tankless won't do squat on its own. But if enough people vote for drilling, or enough people choose energy efficient appliances, real change occurs.

[cpw]

I don't know about you, Masterplumb, but I can't afford to buy an oil drilling rig or a nuclear reactor.
However, I can afford a tankless heater, high efficiency furnace, CFLs, extra attic insulation, etc...
These baby steps accumulate to something bigger.
It's analogous to your drilling solution. It takes legislation to open drilling. Legislation is passed by the elected officials we vote for. Your one tiny vote doesn't amount to anything on its own, just like one tankless won't do squat on its own. But if enough people vote for drilling, or enough people choose energy efficient appliances, real change occurs.
I agree with your intentions, that we should try to do things efficiently; but I am not yet convinced that a tankless would really be more efficient. Also, I think that cost is often a good proxy for efficiency. New gas lines and stainless steel venting use a lot of energy to produce and ship, and that energy usage is reflected in the cost of the installation. I think looking at cost and payback can be very useful in determining the energy use of something over its entire lifecycle not just during operation.

[The Wood Meister]

unless you live next door to the nuclear power plant, you won't have enough amperage to heat up a cup of water:idea2:

rick.


wow, I had NO idea of the draw. Did a quick Google and found http://www.e-tankless.com/products.php
that site. Wow, 80 to 120 amps!!! Crap, my welder AND A/C AND compressor AND table saw don't draw that much combined!

[Dairylander]

I am not yet convinced that a tankless would really be more efficient. New gas lines and stainless steel venting use a lot of energy to produce and ship, and that energy usage is reflected in the cost of the installation.
If you read the original post again, you'll remember that this homeowner wants to change to side vent.
Which means the decision is between a power vent tanked heater vs. a tankless.
I may just be a carpenter, but I'm pretty sure they would have similar gas line and steel venting material needs.

[DuckButter]

NHMaster hit it on the head.

ALL newer, high efficiency technology has a tendency to be rediculously over-priced.
You can get a Burnham SCG boiler rated @ 85% for less than half the price of a Buderus condensing boiler @ 95%.

The catch on the Buderus condensing boiler is that you have to run it at 140 degree's to attain the 95%...it gets more in the vicinity of 90% when operating at 170-180 degree's.

Do the math on a difference of 5% on a heating bill and it won't justify the price difference until you factor in the local gas co's rebate of $1k for a 90% boiler.

As for tankless, there's a similar problem, but not quite as exaggerated.

It usually breaks down to useage, if a family is spending $100 a month to heat water for a family of 6, the tank will be worthwhile...especially with the fact that they'll never run oiut of hot water.

A single bachelor would be better off sticking with the tank.

There are no obscure or expensive chemicals to buy to treat them...you flush them with white vinegar and a small pump for an hour.

Also, CPW...sounds like you have a boiler tankless or indirect...those are different from the tankless we're discussing.
Boiler tankless's run directly from the boiler.
They tend to fluctiuate in temperature and don't have a very large volume of output, they're best fed into a tank.

Indirect water heaters are also big, they run off a boiler as a seperate zone and the gas co's here also offrer a $300 cash rebate for them.
They're a bit less expensive than a tankless, but you have to have a boiler of adequate size in place already.

[DuckButter]

If you read the original post again, you'll remember that this homeowner wants to change to side vent.
Which means the decision is between a power vent tanked heater vs. a tankless.
I may just be a carpenter, but I'm pretty sure they would have similar gas line and steel venting material needs.

You're correct, to a point.
Tankless's use SS venting, a powervent will use PVC.
The SS vent is expensive, which is part of the reason for the price disparity between a powervent or tankless heater.

The powervent will only operate at 60%, as opposed to a tankless at 84%.

[Dairylander]

You're correct, to a point.
Tankless's use SS venting, a powervent will use PVC.
The SS vent is expensive, which is part of the reason for the price disparity between a powervent or tankless heater.

Thanks for the correction, Duck.
But to CPW, my point still stands, since both types of venting require raw materials, production, shipping, etc.
And the steel can be recycled where PVC cannot.

[DuckButter]

does $3000 cover the heater, gas line, vent line, plus the electrical?
power vents are not very common here for residential 40-75 gal. heaters.

the going rate according to the salesman from the essix co who sell the chemical and the pump is $200-250 a service.

i charge $125 with my own set up.
rick.

Thats close to what I charge to flush one, it's also what I charge to flush a tank type.
In either case when I install them I give the customer a brief chat on how to do it themselves, and you're right, most won't do it.

As for the cost to install -
I've installed them for $2500.
It was to replace an existing powervent, electrical, vent and 3/4" gas line were already close to where I needed them.

Once the price goes over $3k, I tend to sway them back to a simple replacement on the existing, or an indirect if possible...for some reason you seem to think I sell them unecessarily, I don't.

I get a lot of requests for them, most I wind up talking them out of when the costs don't justify the install. (great way to earn repeat & referral business BTW)
However, I don't simply blacklist the idea..I have a handful of happy customers with tanklless's.
They DO save money, not a fortune, but in most cases where the price may have seemed daunting the deciding factor was a jacuzzi, a large family that frequently runs out of water...or an environmental fanatic who insists on them.

I have had a few that insist on tankless regardless of price when it serves them to have a heater that won't run out of hot water, despite my pointing out that they won't make the money back in ten years.

I have to wonder Rick, what do you say to a customer who insists on one in that case?

[toolaholic]

Duck,You're a good man!

[cpw]

Also, CPW...sounds like you have a boiler tankless or indirect...those are different from the tankless we're discussing.
Boiler tankless's run directly from the boiler.
They tend to fluctiuate in temperature and don't have a very large volume of output, they're best fed into a tank.

Indirect water heaters are also big, they run off a boiler as a seperate zone and the gas co's here also offrer a $300 cash rebate for them.
They're a bit less expensive than a tankless, but you have to have a boiler of adequate size in place already.
Duck,

I do have an 80 gallon indirect tank running of a boiler. The boiler puts out ~200k BTUs so it is plenty of hot water. The tank is really needed though, with only a 40 gallon tank I couldn't fill the tub in my master bathroom (I looked at the meter once and the faucet relases something like 10gpm, but that is with cold mixed in).

A lot of people around here have the same kind of thing or a little 5 gallon tank hooked up to their boiler.

What I don't get is why for gas the tanked heaters have such a low recovery rate compared to the tankless. If you were to up the recovery rate of the tanked heater, you could have the same argument about never (rarely) running out.

Charles

[cpw]

Thanks for the correction, Duck.
But to CPW, my point still stands, since both types of venting require raw materials, production, shipping, etc.
And the steel can be recycled where PVC cannot.
In some cases the cost differential may not be that high; but I'm wary of technologies that claim to save energy but cost more overall. I'm also suspicious of the Prius.

I agree there are other benefits to them like saving square footage, but I think that probably has limited value in most places. The cost/sq ft where I live is in the range of $200-300, so you could say that is a $1000-$1500 savings right there, but unless space is really constrained like in an apartment that doesn't quite strike a nerve with me.

[DuckButter]

Duck,

I do have an 80 gallon indirect tank running of a boiler. The boiler puts out ~200k BTUs so it is plenty of hot water. The tank is really needed though, with only a 40 gallon tank I couldn't fill the tub in my master bathroom (I looked at the meter once and the faucet relases something like 10gpm, but that is with cold mixed in).

A lot of people around here have the same kind of thing or a little 5 gallon tank hooked up to their boiler.

What I don't get is why for gas the tanked heaters have such a low recovery rate compared to the tankless. If you were to up the recovery rate of the tanked heater, you could have the same argument about never (rarely) running out.

Charles

Right.
I betcha the recovery on your indirect is pretty dam fast though...huh?
I only skimmed your post (things'er getting' a bit verbose here) and got the impression you had a boiler tankless...or maybe you do have one the feeds the indirect.
The tankless heaters have an array of 3/4" copper pipe with fins, much like what you see on baseboard heat elements, they're engineered to "suck up" much more of the heat than a tank type can.
A tank has an opening in the middle of the tank, with a diverter that helps to take some of the heat and transfer it to the tank, but they generally only "suck up" 60% of the heat that passes through.

On a humorous note, the fact that they don't have a tank thats constantly heated is likely going to make them notorious for outlasting tank types. (already has)
An example is we all know how over heating a water heater will shorten it's lifespan.
The electronics & sensors on tankless are what have most apprehensive.
As a plumber, I'm not about to start stocking flow sensors, flame sensors, vacuum sensors, aquastats and other parts for every conceivable brand of tankless I might encounter.
Each MFG has techs that cover any given area who have these parts.

As they gain momentum, the price will go down. (remember the cell phone industry)
The parts will also become more readily available as well.

[DuckButter]

So I'm probably in the anti-tankless crowd, because I'm not convinced I'm heating water when I don't need it. When my boiler has crapped out for several hours and then turns back on, the WH zone doesn't call for heat, so I can't really be losing much. Are there any citations anywhere (not by tankless manufacturers) on how much you lose (say in BTUs/hr) on a regular water heater?
My code requires not more than 15 btu per sq/ft per hour. (tank surface area)

Do some simple math and it doesn't add up to much over a month, the real savings on tankless is the AFUE of the burner when in use.

[Masterplumb]

Indirect tank....the best way to make hot water. Does your tankless have a lifetime warranty? :happydance:

[JCsPlumbing]

The majority of the tankless naysayers on this thread are boiling the entire argument down to penny pinching.
Let's not forget the global perspective here. We have lost almost 4,500 of our boys in the war in Iraq for many reasons; one of which is to stabilize the region that supplies our fuel.
Forgive the harsh reference, but one must remember that energy conservation is not just about lowering one's utility bill.
The United States imports natural gas from Canada, Mexico, Algeria, Australia, Egypt, Equatorial, Guinea, Malaysia, Nigeria, Norway, Oman, Qatar, Trinidad and Tobago, and the United Arab Emirates.
Energy independence = national security.
I had a tankless put in my mom's house a few years ago. Will it pay for itself? Not in her lifetime. Is it still worth it? Definitely.
If we all do something small we can effect real change.
If we all listen to Rick we'll die a few dollars richer.

This is kookie talk. Why didn't your mom install an electric if imported natural gas is such a national security threat? Also, the majority of tankless I've encountered are made from overseas. How does this help us? Where was your moms' made? Do you know that you can put in a tankless for a customer and they end up using MORE gas?

Each hotwater application is different and must be figured at the job to give a customer what they want/need while maximizing efficiency AND what they are paying for.

I see and here this from customers that have a tankless & want to defend and justify their decision. I ask them questions because honestly I want to constantly gather information and improve. In every case they seem to change their "use behavior" to accommadate a tankless system. With a tank, they had the W/M running, dishwasher, kitchen sink, and maybe a shower. With the tankless they waited on the W/M. Get the point? Tankless water heaters are only one solution to giving a customer hotwater and in my experience it is the minority solution.

I don't believe Rick's motivation is to make his customers a few dollars richer. I believe Rick's motivation is to do what's best for his customer. Tankless systems may get to that point one day. Then he'll probably be installing more than ever. Either way, you may disagree, but you've got to respect that he's trying to do what he feels is best for people.

J.C.

[theoak]

I am a user and not a plumber.

I just had a Rinnai 75LSi (natural gas) unit installed last week.

I had a natural gas 50 gallon tank. Usually during the middle of the third shower, we were running out of hot water.

Why I got a tankless ... I have a large family. The water heater was starting to "run" our family. We had to "schedule" our showers with the appropriate breaks to allow the hot water to build back up again.

(It could have been that the hot water tank was going ... who knows.)

I have 4 kids and 2 adults (including myself) in my family. Getting ready for church on Sunday was a dream. The wife had a bath (we have a "soaker" tub (35 gallons?). I then bathed my two youngest. While I was bathing the two youngest, the two oldest, had their showers. Finally I jumped in the shower. This was done in about an hour and a half. There is no way I could have done this a week ago. A week ago, by the time the oldest would have started their showers, we would have been out of hot water.

The hot water heater no longer "runs" our life.

I will add ... with both showers going, I do notice a reduction in pressure ... maybe 10%. The shower however is still very enjoyable. The tempurature does not change. Prior, I would have to continually tweak the hot water up when two showers were going until there was no hot water left. Now ... I don't have to do anything but continue to enjoy the shower.

Will I make my money back ... who knows. In 10 years maybe. If you factor in the time that we save though not having to wait for hot water recovery however ... after last Sunday ... it has already paid itself off :)

I will add though I have lost a disciplining tool. I can no longer say "whoever is good gets to shower first!" ;)

[theoak]

One thing I will add too ...

As far as I understand it, tankless technology is not new. In Europe and eastern Asia (Japan for example), tankless water heaters are the norm.

They are only "new" in North America.

[JCsPlumbing]

That is correct. They have been overseas for years. But there hotwater usage does not match ours either. The first round of tankless sucked for the U.S. The newer ones are becoming more and more toward our uses and satisfying customers. Ever notice how Rinnai for example is ever increasing maximum btu's while reducing required flow rate?

J.C.

[JCsPlumbing]

Now somebody go figure out my VENT QUESTION!

J.C.

[Masterplumb]

I am a user and not a plumber.

I just had a Rinnai 75LSi (natural gas) unit installed last week.

I had a natural gas 50 gallon tank. Usually during the middle of the third shower, we were running out of hot water.

Why I got a tankless ... I have a large family. The water heater was starting to "run" our family. We had to "schedule" our showers with the appropriate breaks to allow the hot water to build back up again.

(It could have been that the hot water tank was going ... who knows.)

I have 4 kids and 2 adults (including myself) in my family. Getting ready for church on Sunday was a dream. The wife had a bath (we have a "soaker" tub (35 gallons?). I then bathed my two youngest. While I was bathing the two youngest, the two oldest, had their showers. Finally I jumped in the shower. This was done in about an hour and a half. There is no way I could have done this a week ago. A week ago, by the time the oldest would have started their showers, we would have been out of hot water.

The hot water heater no longer "runs" our life.

I will add ... with both showers going, I do notice a reduction in pressure ... maybe 10%. The shower however is still very enjoyable. The tempurature does not change. Prior, I would have to continually tweak the hot water up when two showers were going until there was no hot water left. Now ... I don't have to do anything but continue to enjoy the shower.

Will I make my money back ... who knows. In 10 years maybe. If you factor in the time that we save though not having to wait for hot water recovery however ... after last Sunday ... it has already paid itself off :)

I will add though I have lost a disciplining tool. I can no longer say "whoever is good gets to shower first!" ;)

You probably could have gotten a "properly sized" tank heater and saved yourself about 1k.

[DuckButter]

Indirect tank....the best way to make hot water. Does your tankless have a lifetime warranty? :happydance:
SuperStor, SuperStor, SuperStor.
I FULLY agree, I do far more indirects than tankless by far.
Tankless's are for the folks that have furnaces

[Dairylander]

This is kookie talk.

Each hotwater application is different and must be figured at the job to give a customer what they want/need while maximizing efficiency AND what they are paying for.

I don't believe Rick's motivation is to make his customers a few dollars richer.
J.C.
Wow. You come out name calling and then actually prove MY point.
What I was trying to convey is that there are many factors to weigh such as cost, energy independence, environmental impact, etc.
I picked on Rick because his anti-tankless argument is mostly a financial one.
So J.C., I couldn't agree more when you said, " Each hot water application is different and must be figured at the job to give a customer what they want/need."
In light of this, I disagree with talking customers out of tankless just because you've already done the calculations and you know they won't make their money back.
I just put in a dual flush Toto toilet in a house that I flipped. The unit cost me three times more than a stock toilet and I'll never see a penny of the those utility bill savings. But for the rest of that toilet's life it will reduce the water consumption in that house.
It's fine if you want to call me names, and it's fine if you don't understand my point, but try not to do both in the same post.

[DuckButter]

I am a user and not a plumber.

I just had a Rinnai 75LSi (natural gas) unit installed last week.

I had a natural gas 50 gallon tank. Usually during the middle of the third shower, we were running out of hot water.

Why I got a tankless ... I have a large family. The water heater was starting to "run" our family. We had to "schedule" our showers with the appropriate breaks to allow the hot water to build back up again.

(It could have been that the hot water tank was going ... who knows.)

I have 4 kids and 2 adults (including myself) in my family. Getting ready for church on Sunday was a dream. The wife had a bath (we have a "soaker" tub (35 gallons?). I then bathed my two youngest. While I was bathing the two youngest, the two oldest, had their showers. Finally I jumped in the shower. This was done in about an hour and a half. There is no way I could have done this a week ago. A week ago, by the time the oldest would have started their showers, we would have been out of hot water.

The hot water heater no longer "runs" our life.

I will add ... with both showers going, I do notice a reduction in pressure ... maybe 10%. The shower however is still very enjoyable. The tempurature does not change. Prior, I would have to continually tweak the hot water up when two showers were going until there was no hot water left. Now ... I don't have to do anything but continue to enjoy the shower.

Will I make my money back ... who knows. In 10 years maybe. If you factor in the time that we save though not having to wait for hot water recovery however ... after last Sunday ... it has already paid itself off :)

I will add though I have lost a disciplining tool. I can no longer say "whoever is good gets to shower first!" ;)

BINGO!!
I have no complaints on any tankless's I've installed...many comments similar to yours.

I would ask one little favor, if you wouldn't mind....
Turn on as many hot fixtures as you can...tell us how many fixtures it took before the flow restrictor kicks on.
Would be FANTASTIC to see an actual real time "experiment" for us....I've done it for customers and it's nice to watch how many it takes.
It does depend on how many gpm the heater is rated for, but I have to assume you have a whole home model.

[theoak]

You probably could have gotten a "properly sized" tank heater and saved yourself about 1k.

Oh ... you're probably right ;)

I was pretty cramped in my space requirements however, so I am not sure how much larger I could have gone. Going larger would mean more natural gas usage too.

I had 4 bids done. What was interesting is that from the lowest to the highest was about $1500. I had three packed somewhat close together (within $600), and then the last was way out there. They all recommended the same setup and equipment however. None of them recommended another tank (now it could be because they make more money off of a tankless???).

Granted, right now, I might still be in the "honeymoon" phase, hopefully in a year my opinion will be the same :)

I did actually speak to a few people in my area that had them (I asked for references from the installers plus other contacts). One guy even had his for about a year and still loved it.

I am thinking that I did my homework fairly well ...

[DuckButter]

Wow. You come out name calling and then actually prove MY point.
What I was trying to convey is that there are many factors to weigh such as cost, energy independence, environmental impact, etc.
I picked on Rick because his anti-tankless argument is mostly a financial one.
So J.C., I couldn't agree more when you said, " Each hot water application is different and must be figured at the job to give a customer what they want/need."
In light of this, I disagree with talking customers out of tankless just because you've already done the calculations and you know they won't make their money back.
I just put in a dual flush Toto toilet in a house that I flipped. The unit cost me three times more than a stock toilet and I'll never see a penny of the those utility bill savings. But for the rest of that toilet's life it will reduce the water consumption in that house.
It's fine if you want to call me names, and it's fine if you don't understand my point, but try not to do both in the same post.
Good choice of toilet, seems were completely on the same page as far as tankless is concerned.
When you say "I installed" I think (hope) you meant "your plumber installed"....especially on the tankless's.

[theoak]

BINGO!!
I have no complaints on any tankless's I've installed...many comments similar to yours.

I would ask one little favor, if you wouldn't mind....
Turn on as many hot fixtures as you can...tell us how many fixtures it took before the flow restrictor kicks on.
Would be FANTASTIC to see an actual real time "experiment" for us....I've done it for customers and it's nice to watch how many it takes.
It does depend on how many gpm the heater is rated for, but I have to assume you have a whole home model.

As stated, I have the Rinnai 75LS. It is "rated" for 7.5 gpm. Realistically though however, it probably hovers around 4.5 to 5.5 gpm depending on the season.

A typical shower I am told is 2.5 gpm. However, you typically do not run a shower at full hot. So lets say 2 gpm of hot water is being used. So using some rough math, I should be able to run two showers and maybe a tap before it really has problems keeping up.

I also have the Rinnai set to 120 degrees (the default). I have heard of a "trick" where you can set it to 130, for example. That way in a shower, you would be using less hot water (maybe 1.75 gpm of hot water now). Due to the fact that you are now using less hot water, that now leaves more hot water for other sources. (Granted, you are wasting energy because you now have to cool more of the water that you just heated.)

It all depends on my incoming water temperature too. Right now I can have 2 showers going and not notice much. In the winter ... who knows? Worse case scenario though is lets say that I can only run 1 shower at a time. I am still okay with that because I am still better off than when I had the tank. With the tank, on the third shower I was out of hot water. Here, I can have shower (1st), after shower (2nd), after shower (3rd), after shower (4th) and still have hot water.

As far as your experiment goes. That is something I was thinking of doing myself. Super busy the next few days though ... give me a week or so.

[DuckButter]

Oh ... you're probably right ;)

I was pretty cramped in my space requirements however, so I am not sure how much larger I could have gone. Going larger would mean more natural gas usage too.

I had 4 bids done. What was interesting is that from the lowest to the highest was about $1500. I had three packed somewhat close together (within $600), and then the last was way out there. They all recommended the same setup and equipment however. None of them recommended another tank (now it could be because they make more money off of a tankless???).
My guess is the highest bid was directly proportional to the size ad they have in the yellow pages.
In the same respect, low prices are often guys that might cut corners, rush the job, or slip in cheaper stock that won't hold up just to get the job up front.
As far as the size of the heater meaning it'll use more gas...not at all, in fact the higher output tankless's have a tendancy to be higher efficiency in some cases.

Granted, right now, I might still be in the "honeymoon" phase, hopefully in a year my opinion will be the same :)

I did actually speak to a few people in my area that had them (I asked for references from the installers plus other contacts). One guy even had his for about a year and still loved it.

I am thinking that I did my homework fairly well ...
Make absolutely sure you flush it at least once a year, the installer should have put draw-offs on hot & cold to enable you to attach a hose with a pump and cycle vinegar through a bucket, if not....that may explain the lower cost to install it over other bids.

Also, please...try the "experiment" I mentioned...would be pretty cool to see how many fixtures will run before it drops off.

[DuckButter]

As stated, I have the Rinnai 75LS. It is "rated" for 7.5 gpm. Realistically though however, it probably hovers around 4.5 to 5.5 gpm depending on the season.

A typical shower I am told is 2.5 gpm. However, you typically do not run a shower at full hot. So lets say 2 gpm of hot water is being used. So using some rough math, I should be able to run two showers and maybe a tap before it really has problems keeping up.

I also have the Rinnai set to 120 degrees (the default). I have heard of a "trick" where you can set it to 130, for example. That way in a shower, you would be using less hot water (maybe 1.75 gpm of hot water now). Due to the fact that you are now using less hot water, that now leaves more hot water for other sources. (Granted, you are wasting energy because you now have to cool more of the water that you just heated.)

It all depends on my incoming water temperature too. Right now I can have 2 showers going and not notice much. In the winter ... who knows? Worse case scenario though is lets say that I can only run 1 shower at a time. I am still okay with that because I am still better off than when I had the tank. With the tank, on the third shower I was out of hot water. Here, I can have shower (1st), after shower (2nd), after shower (3rd), after shower (4th) and still have hot water.

As far as your experiment goes. That is something I was thinking of doing myself. Super busy the next few days though ... give me a week or so.

You'll find it takes 4 fixtures to "kill" the flow at this time of year....done it on a Rheem 7.4.
Guy freaked when we had two showers, a kit Sink, lav on and he turned his 6 GPM roman tub filler on and it all dropped.
I had to point out that it was highly unlikely he'd ever need to have all the hot water on in his house at any given time.
(Even the tub filler was hot only, all 6 gpm as opposed to the usual mixture of hot/cold)
As for increasing the temperature...DON'T!
If I recall it voids the warranty & drops the efficiency....stick with the 120 setting.

Unless you find otherwise in your owners manual, I wouldn't suggest it.

[theoak]

...
Make absolutely sure you flush it at least once a year, the installer should have put draw-offs on hot & cold to enable you to attach a hose with a pump and cycle vinegar through a bucket, if not....that may explain the lower cost to install it over other bids.


Yes, I actually called Rinnai on this one too. The "draw-offs" are part of the "standard" install kit. When I interviewed the installers, all were well versed on the flushing and stated that they did that as part of their install. The installer even went so far as to give me a little "training" exercise on cleaning the inbound water filter. He advised me to clean it once or twice during the next two weeks as with the new install, there may be debris in the line from the installation that needs to get flushed out. He then advised me to check on the filter periodically as general maintenance. I have read posts where people complained that they have lost water pressure, cleaned their filter, and bingo, water pressure again.

Also, please...try the "experiment" I mentioned...would be pretty cool to see how many fixtures will run before it drops off.


See post above ...

[theoak]

...
As for increasing the temperature...DON'T!
If I recall it voids the warranty & drops the efficiency....stick with the 120 setting.

Unless you find otherwise in your owners manual, I wouldn't suggest it.

Technically I can increase the temperature to 140 without voiding the warranty.

Also, that is the highest that I could set it at anyway. If I wanted to go higher, I would need a new panel that could go up to 180 (I think). If I went that route however, the warranty would change to "commercial" versus "residential". So basically, my warranty would get cut in half.

For now I will keep it at the 120. I am a little concerned with the kids too if I start cranking it up.

[DuckButter]

Technically I can increase the temperature to 140 without voiding the warranty.

Also, that is the highest that I could set it at anyway. If I wanted to go higher, I would need a new panel that could go up to 180 (I think). If I went that route however, the warranty would change to "commercial" versus "residential". So basically, my warranty would get cut in half.

For now I will keep it at the 120. I am a little concerned with the kids too if I start cranking it up.

I s'pose you could put a mixing valve on the outlet side and increase the temp to 140, fractionally increasing the output @ 120 by 1/6th....not at all worth the cost and bother atop the warranty issue.

As far as the "experiment" request, you'd mentioned two showers with a slight drop.
I mean trying it until you get a substantial drop, you'll likely see what I mean after 4 fixtures at once.

[Masterplumb]

Oh ... you're probably right ;)

I was pretty cramped in my space requirements however, so I am not sure how much larger I could have gone. Going larger would mean more natural gas usage too.

I had 4 bids done. What was interesting is that from the lowest to the highest was about $1500. I had three packed somewhat close together (within $600), and then the last was way out there. They all recommended the same setup and equipment however. None of them recommended another tank (now it could be because they make more money off of a tankless???).

Granted, right now, I might still be in the "honeymoon" phase, hopefully in a year my opinion will be the same :)

I did actually speak to a few people in my area that had them (I asked for references from the installers plus other contacts). One guy even had his for about a year and still loved it.

I am thinking that I did my homework fairly well ...

I am glad you are happy with your unit, I wasn't trying to be fecetious. If you are positive that a bigger tank would definitely mean more gas maybe you should hit the books again.;)

[theoak]

I am glad you are happy with your unit, I wasn't trying to be fecetious. If you are positive that a bigger tank would definitely mean more gas maybe you should hit the books again.;)

Yup ... you probably got me there ... :o

[JCsPlumbing]

Wow. You come out name calling and then actually prove MY point.
What I was trying to convey is that there are many factors to weigh such as cost, energy independence, environmental impact, etc.
I picked on Rick because his anti-tankless argument is mostly a financial one.
So J.C., I couldn't agree more when you said, " Each hot water application is different and must be figured at the job to give a customer what they want/need."
In light of this, I disagree with talking customers out of tankless just because you've already done the calculations and you know they won't make their money back.
I just put in a dual flush Toto toilet in a house that I flipped. The unit cost me three times more than a stock toilet and I'll never see a penny of the those utility bill savings. But for the rest of that toilet's life it will reduce the water consumption in that house.
It's fine if you want to call me names, and it's fine if you don't understand my point, but try not to do both in the same post.

What name did I call you? Please list in the response. "Kookie talk" is my joking way of saying this doesn't make sense.

I haven't proved your point at all. You stated we should consider tankless to gain energy independence from foreign countries when that has yet to be proven true. If you really believed that you would have put in an electric. Don't get upset with others just because many of those with experience disagree with your installation or reasoning for such.

I also disagree with "talking" a customer out of anything. I simply present the total facts of all situations and put the power to decide in their hands while making sure things are code compliant.

You partially quoted my post as to what you wanted or agreed/disagreed with but you need to take all of the information as a whole. Just like assessing hot water needs.

What licenses in your state do you hold? What tankless certifications do you have? How many different brands have you installed? How many water heaters have you installed? Most flippers don't hold any credentials in my experience, usually get only the information they want, and leave the rest with disregard to the truth or results. Hope that's not your case.

I didn't call you a name. I understand completely the point you were attempting to make. You just didn't make it.

J.C.

[Dairylander]

What name did I call you? Please list in the response. "Kookie talk" is my joking way of saying this doesn't make sense.

You partially quoted my post as to what you wanted or agreed/disagreed with but you need to take all of the information as a whole.

J.C.
I don't know how things are in North Carolina, but where I'm from calling someone "kookie" is far from polite.

I only quoted the parts of your post that I was responding to. In my opinion that makes a thread a more coherent read.

To sum up:
The OP asks whether to do power vent or tankless.
An economic debate ensues.
I mention that there are factors other than money to be considered.
J.C. calls me a kook.

I didn't mean to cause digression of the thread, so I will retire from it.
-Dairy

[PLUMBER RICK]

I have had a few that insist on tankless regardless of price when it serves them to have a heater that won't run out of hot water, despite my pointing out that they won't make the money back in ten years.

I have to wonder Rick, what do you say to a customer who insists on one in that case?

considering my buddy who just sold his company and had 20 employees and was in business close to 30 years only sold a few to demanding customers. he never sold them to sell them.

remember, we are the trusted experts. if the customer is smarter than us, then they are smart enough to install it themselves:D so far, my customers have not outsmarted me yet:rolleyes:

all of my customers trust my opinion and my facts. so far there has not been 1 of my customers that has installed a tankless based on my facts. sure there are new customers that have them, before i became their plumber and over 50% of them are not properly installed. either the venting, gas, recirc, is wrong.

the best one was on a beach house inspection. i was there to camera the sewer line for an escrow inspection. as i went into the basement to find the c/o. i saw the newly installed tankless. who couldn't notice the 1/2'' gas line, the upside down venting and the best ever. the reversed gas meter. i let the new owner know the issues and she said it was inspected by the city when they did the repipe:rolleyes:

of course within 2 months of moving in she called me to inspect why she was not getting enough hot water and she lived by herself.

of course i referred her back to my original findings 2 months prior.

after i moved the heater outside, replaced the 1/2'' gas line to 3/4'' and reversed the gas meter and earthquake valve, she could finally take a real shower.

i know what i charged her. i don't what the original owner paid for the installation.

rick.

[JCsPlumbing]

I don't know how things are in North Carolina, but where I'm from calling someone "kookie" is far from polite.

I only quoted the parts of your post that I was responding to. In my opinion that makes a thread a more coherent read.

To sum up:
The OP asks whether to do power vent or tankless.
An economic debate ensues.
I mention that there are factors other than money to be considered.
J.C. calls me a kook.

I didn't mean to cause digression of the thread, so I will retire from it.
-Dairy

This makes me chuckle to say to what I assume is a grown man.....I apologize if you felt offended. I did not call you a Kook. :)

[PLUMBER RICK]

I picked on Rick because his anti-tankless argument is mostly a financial one.

100% absolutely wrong:eek:

if you know anything at all about me, which you don't. my decisions are based on experience and knowledge. my customers are also in the top 5% income bracket. more than 75% of the homes i work in are a million dollars plus. some are over 10 million and then there are the few that are 20 million plus. my customers can afford anything out there.

what it comes down to is real facts. why do you want a tankless? so far there has not been i customer of mine switch to tankless after a 10 minute chat.

let me quote a conversation i had with a noritz sales rep last year.

"tankless are for tree huggers" his words exactly:eek:

also as another has mentioned. our water use is more demanding than what the tankless was originally designed for. the manufacturers have gone back from saying an energy saver. they have also dropped their smaller btu heaters and have upped the units to higher btu's and recovery.

the only advantage i see for a tankless is physical size and space requirements.

maybe a new construction building will no longer need a dedicated room for a tank heater. but i no longer do new construction. 15 years was enough. i'm not interested in remodels anymore. so when a customers calls for a water heater leak, over half of them inquire about a tankless. none of them have ever taken me up on it. and remember they can afford anything money can buy.
funny as i'm also the least expensive guy here:shrug:.

so next time i get an inquiry on a tankless, i'll put you on a 3 way call and we can debate the issue with the customer. if you can convince them to install a tankless, i'll install it for them:D p.m. me with a contact number and i'll give you a call when it comes in;).

rick.

[DuckButter]

There's nothing to argue.
Tankless are definitely suitable for some, not suitable for others.
Making an across the board decision to completely black list them is silly.

And, for the record...hour per hour I make out better installing a tank type...in and out fast work.

[PLUMBER RICK]

BINGO!!
I have no complaints on any tankless's I've installed...many comments similar to yours.

I would ask one little favor, if you wouldn't mind....
Turn on as many hot fixtures as you can...tell us how many fixtures it took before the flow restrictor kicks on.
Would be FANTASTIC to see an actual real time "experiment" for us....I've done it for customers and it's nice to watch how many it takes.
It does depend on how many gpm the heater is rated for, but I have to assume you have a whole home model.

1 bathtub with no flow restrictor will max out a tankless. most tankless are in the 7-9 gpm range with a delta factor of 50 degree rise. the 199k bradford book i just looked at is rated at 4.26gpm at 77 degreee rise. this is the only rating it shows. 84% efficency.

rick.

[DUNBAR PLUMBING]

I ate dinner tonight




and didn't wash my hands first.

[PLUMBER RICK]

Yes, I actually called Rinnai on this one too. The "draw-offs" are part of the "standard" install kit. When I interviewed the installers, all were well versed on the flushing and stated that they did that as part of their install. The installer even went so far as to give me a little "training" exercise on cleaning the inbound water filter. He advised me to clean it once or twice during the next two weeks as with the new install, there may be debris in the line from the installation that needs to get flushed out. He then advised me to check on the filter periodically as general maintenance. I have read posts where people complained that they have lost water pressure, cleaned their filter, and bingo, water pressure again.



See post above ...


i'm glad you are able to understand the importance of flushing. i can't get my customers to even flush their heaters 2 times a year. this takes an ordinary garden hose and typically a screwdriver to turn on the hose bibb for 30 seconds.

i doubt less than 10% of the tankless owners are well enough versed and equipped to properly flush out their own tankless heaters.
the sales rep told me the going price is $200-250 for a flush:eek:

invest in a pump and a couple of washing machine hoses, a 5 galllon bucket and some white vinegar. read the book and save some money.
$200 will buy a nice pump and a lot of vinegar. make sure to properly flush out the residue and vinegar when finished before going out of bypass.

otherwise you'll smell like a salad:D

rick.

[DuckButter]

I ate dinner tonight




and didn't wash my hands first.

I like apple pie.

[NHMaster3015]

I"ve sat back and let this thing take on a life of it's own. It's been kind o fun. Anyhoooo. here's what I do when a customer asks me about tankless wter heaters. I give them the literature. I give them the price. Then I let them make a decision. Wether or not I like or hate them makes do difference. Same with solar. There is a contingent of folks that just plain want it. Either because they think they are saving money. Doing the "green" thing or most likley just want to one up the neighbor. If they are going to spend the money, it may just as well go into my pockets.

[Service Guy]

I"ve sat back and let this thing take on a life of it's own. It's been kind o fun. Anyhoooo. here's what I do when a customer asks me about tankless wter heaters. I give them the literature. I give them the price. Then I let them make a decision. Wether or not I like or hate them makes do difference. Same with solar. There is a contingent of folks that just plain want it. Either because they think they are saving money. Doing the "green" thing or most likley just want to one up the neighbor. If they are going to spend the money, it may just as well go into my pockets.

Right on!:thumbup2:

[JCsPlumbing]

I"ve sat back and let this thing take on a life of it's own. It's been kind o fun. Anyhoooo. here's what I do when a customer asks me about tankless wter heaters. I give them the literature. I give them the price. Then I let them make a decision. Wether or not I like or hate them makes do difference. Same with solar. There is a contingent of folks that just plain want it. Either because they think they are saving money. Doing the "green" thing or most likley just want to one up the neighbor. If they are going to spend the money, it may just as well go into my pockets.

Like I said earlier, "I put in $650.00 kitchen faucets that do the same as $75.00 Deltas."

Sometimes people buy based on feel.

J.C.

[ToUtahNow]

So when you install tankless water heaters is it at T&M or flat-rate?

Mark :grin-devilish:

[JCsPlumbing]

Both Mark. I sometimes stand on a sectional to reach things and use a drum to rest tools on. :D

J.C.

[cpw]

Right.
I betcha the recovery on your indirect is pretty dam fast though...huh?
Yep. My original post was wrong, it isn't 200k BTUs it is 119K or so, but 200 gallons of hot water (depends on the rise, I have my thermostat set at 130 not 120, and our ground water is probably cooler at least in winter than the manufacturer thinks); but yes it does recover very well.


I only skimmed your post (things'er getting' a bit verbose here) and got the impression you had a boiler tankless...or maybe you do have one the feeds the indirect.
The tankless heaters have an array of 3/4" copper pipe with fins, much like what you see on baseboard heat elements, they're engineered to "suck up" much more of the heat than a tank type can.
A tank has an opening in the middle of the tank, with a diverter that helps to take some of the heat and transfer it to the tank, but they generally only "suck up" 60% of the heat that passes through.

That actually sounds like something pretty compelling. If the natural gas tanked heaters are throwing heat out their flue instead of into the water that I can see as a real advantage.

The better solution [not for us as individuals, but for the world at large] though might seem to be the tanked models getting to be as efficient as the indirect or tankless. :)

[DuckButter]

[/b]
Yep. My original post was wrong, it isn't 200k BTUs it is 119K or so, but 200 gallons of hot water (depends on the rise, I have my thermostat set at 130 not 120, and our ground water is probably cooler at least in winter than the manufacturer thinks); but yes it does recover very well.


That actually sounds like something pretty compelling. If the natural gas tanked heaters are throwing heat out their flue instead of into the water that I can see as a real advantage.

The better solution [not for us as individuals, but for the world at large] though might seem to be the tanked models getting to be as efficient as the indirect or tankless. :)
I think you might be mistaken on the 200 gallon assessment, unless thats a reference to recovery.
IF you actually have a 200 gallon tank, you're good to go for a 3 jacuzzi home when you know all 3 will be in use simultaneously.

As far as high efficiency tank types, take a peek at this...Heat Transfer Products - Phoenix Gas Fired Water Heater (http://www.htproducts.com/phoenix.html)

[cpw]

I think you might be mistaken on the 200 gallon assessment, unless thats a reference to recovery.
IF you actually have a 200 gallon tank, you're good to go for a 3 jacuzzi home when you know all 3 will be in use simultaneously.
Yes, I wasn't clear. Recovery is 200 gallons, the tank is only 80.

[DUNBAR PLUMBING]

Somebody please prove to me in consensus or factual data that given the life of a tankless heater, that the efficiency of its nature is considered the same as the day it was first installed.



Then tell me what we already know with tank heaters; they lose efficiency from day one, the end user looks at it, that's it. No maintenance whatsoever and that's the majority, not the minority.


Taking it a step further,


No one has provided proof whether what side of the fence your on that on a tankless would you be able to prove to the mfg. beyond a reasonable doubt that you DID do the recommended flushing and when the unit started running bad numbers on effectiveness?

Remove the compartment and see that the solution that has to be non-caustic since the device must be able to condition potable water without harmful affect to human and animal consumption.....

now you're looking at something that does have buildup that a 40 minute solution isn't taking care of, delaying the heat up time.


And I'm just talking compartment, not those huge rolls of copper tubing that worked excellent in those pressure controlled burner assemblies on the old style ruuds....that still work even today, without a slew of electronics.

That, was endless hot water.


As soon as I tell people of the maintenance of these devices, the majority change their thinking real quick.

Let them bring this product to the area, I'm all for it. It can be good for a lot of reasons as point of use but start doing a house that has some square footage to it.....you're spending money.


I can't see how efficiency numbers are even a consideration these days with people building practically car washes for showers in their homes with 12" rain shower heads and 8 body sprays and the like.

NO water conservation, no regard to energy consumption because taking a 24 minute hot shower has its priority.

Of course I turn on my garden hose at night and go to bed, you're not paying the bill, right?

g'nite! :wave2:

[ToUtahNow]

One has to wonder if you guys who have owners "change their minds after they know the facts" are somewhat bias in your presentation.

Mark

[DuckButter]

One has to wonder if you guys who have owners "change their minds after they know the facts" are somewhat bias in your presentation.

Mark
I'll say it again, I make less per hour doing tankless...in part because there's only so much you can charge once they see the price difference.

I mention them as an option, I go over rough figures on savings vs convenience of not running out of hot water.
They decide.
To simply disuade people from tankless, especially when my local gas co encourages them with cash rebates, would be silly.

Also, the more options and information you give a customer, the more likely it is you get the job.

[theoak]

...
invest in a pump and a couple of washing machine hoses, a 5 galllon bucket and some white vinegar. read the book and save some money.
$200 will buy a nice pump and a lot of vinegar. make sure to properly flush out the residue and vinegar when finished before going out of bypass.

otherwise you'll smell like a salad:D

rick.

Any recommendations on a pump?

[DuckButter]

Any recommendations on a pump?

You don't need anything heavy-duty, as long as it has a hose bib connection on each side.
All you need is that, 3 washing machine hoses (double female ends) and a five gal bucket.

Use 3 to 4 gallons of white vinegar, dump into the bucket, connect the pump to induce flow from cold to hot...make ABSOLUTELY sure you unplug the electric, then let 'er rip for an hour or so.

Cost for the pump & bucket should be less than $50, the vinegar will cost you maybe $5 each year after.

Or, as proposed, you can just pay a plumber $100+ once a year to do this for you.

For the record, you're actually supposed to flush a tank type as well once a year, most don't and they reap the nefits when the tank gives up right after the warranty is done.

Make this part of your annual spring cleaning regimen and you'll save yourself a few years life, and service costs for repairs by inhibiting scale buildup on the internals.

[ToUtahNow]

I would add that flushing, whether it be a storage type or tank less heater, should be based on water chemistry more than it is on calendar days. Sometimes the recommended maintenance is not sufficient to protect the heater.

Mark

[wrench spinner]

Agreed! The higher calcium content (harder the water) the more frequently a tankless needs to be flushed. I used to always reccommend to my customers that we test there water chemistry before any further discussion of tanked vs. tankless.

[cpw]

How does one flush an indirect tank? Is it as simple as turning off the boiler and turning the hose bib at the bottom of the tank on for a few minutes?

[theoak]

You don't need anything heavy-duty, as long as it has a hose bib connection on each side.
...
Cost for the pump & bucket should be less than $50, the vinegar will cost you maybe $5 each year after.
...


When I google water pumps, I am not having the greatest luck.

Is this something I could find at my local Home Depot or Lowes?

Perhaps there is a good online retailer that one could recommend? (If this is not allowed, feel free to PM me.)

Any brand name recommendations?

As an aside ...

I figure I would flush the Rinnai as often as I change the filter on my furnace. Ideally they say every 3 months. Realistically, for me, more like 5 to 8 months. If I happen to be reasonably on time, say 3 to 5 months, with the furnace filters, maybe every other one. That should cover me pretty good I am thinking ...

(Thanks for all the tips in the past by the way! :thumbup2: )

[boillerman]

All you need is a utility sump pump with a hose bibb connection. Yes, hardwares should have them, inexpensive.

[boillerman]

How does one flush an indirect tank? Is it as simple as turning off the boiler and turning the hose bib at the bottom of the tank on for a few minutes?

Hopefully if you have any hardness in your water your plumber sold you
a water softener too. If the coils coat up on the domestic side, good luck.

[theoak]

All you need is a utility sump pump with a hose bibb connection. Yes, hardwares should have them, inexpensive.

Perfect ... "utility pump" and "sump pump".

I am finding all sorts of them now. I just needed to know the key words to look up.

I know what to look for now.

You guys rock! :thumbup2:

[NHMaster3015]

If you don't have one of these, you need one. This is without a doubt the most versitile, rugged indispensible pump you will ever own. It pumps everything and is capaple of 300lbs pressure. It can also be used as a suction pump for priming water pumps. Amazing and only about a hundred bucks. I've had one for over 30 years now. It's made by Silver King.



http://www.nucalgon.com/nucalgon/nucalgon_products.nsf/601b1f1be51688c686256b6f007679e4/a9d93207e0776d358625643b0055fac1/Body/0.110?OpenElement&FieldElemFormat=gif

[DuckButter]

I would add that flushing, whether it be a storage type or tank less heater, should be based on water chemistry more than it is on calendar days. Sometimes the recommended maintenance is not sufficient to protect the heater.

Mark
Extremely good point.
One area in my state I used to work in has a severe manganese problem, that stuff makes a calcium problem look like childs play.

After thought...I WOULD go out of my way to suggest not having a tankless in this area for that reason.

[boillerman]

If you don't have one of these, you need one. This is without a doubt the most versitile, rugged indispensible pump you will ever own. It pumps everything and is capaple of 300lbs pressure. It can also be used as a suction pump for priming water pumps. Amazing and only about a hundred bucks. I've had one for over 30 years now. It's made by Silver King.



http://www.nucalgon.com/nucalgon/nucalgon_products.nsf/601b1f1be51688c686256b6f007679e4/a9d93207e0776d358625643b0055fac1/Body/0.110?OpenElement&FieldElemFormat=gif
I've carried one for 25 years, but never really thought about using it for anything other than antifreeze or occasionally injecting a little pressure to a closed system. Never been able to get that kind of pressure with it though. And priming a pump, brilliant. Had the tool and didn't know it! Of course, for this particular application, he wants a pump he can turn on and walk away from.

[DuckButter]

I've carried one for 25 years, but never really thought about using it for anything other than antifreeze or occasionally injecting a little pressure to a closed system. Never been able to get that kind of pressure with it though. And priming a pump, brilliant. Had the tool and didn't know it! Of course, for this particular application, he wants a pump he can turn on and walk away from.

Does conjure a pretty cool image of Harry homeowner feverishly plodding away for an hour with it though.

[boillerman]

:bravo:

[theoak]

Does conjure a pretty cool image of Harry homeowner feverishly plodding away for an hour with it though.

Wait ... "Harry homewowner" ... almost sounds like you are calling me a "kook".

:eek:

( Totally joking ;) )

[DuckButter]

Wait ... "Harry homewowner" ... almost sound like you are calling me a "kook".

:eek:

( Totally joking ;) )

Nah...I only get into 80% of the needless spats on the forum.
You fall in the lucky 20.

[theoak]

For what it is worth ... here are some shots of my installation. I added the insulation after the fact. This will give those not familar an idea of what to expect ...

Also ... just got my gas bill. 13 therms. Last year I also used 13 therms. One might ask ... what about the 10 to 40 percent savings? I would have lost some gas in the installation. My wife is also due in 6 weeks and hence is in her last trimester ... she has been taking a lot baths lately. I also had the installation done in the middle of the bill cylce so this is not necesarilly a true reflection either. Plus ... I have been enjoying some REALLY long showers ... :D

So far so good. I would do it again ...

[Masterplumb]

For what it is worth ... here are some shots of my installation. I added the insulation after the fact. This will give those not familar an idea of what to expect ...

Also ... just got my gas bill. 13 therms. Last year I also used 13 therms. One might ask ... what about the 10 to 40 percent savings? I would have lost some gas in the installation. My wife is also due in 6 weeks and hence is in her last trimester ... she has been taking a lot baths lately. I also had the installation done in the middle of the bill cylce so this is not necesarilly a true reflection either. Plus ... I have been enjoying some REALLY long showers ... :D

So far so good. I would do it again ...

Is there a shut-off for the gas nearby? Please comeback and tell us how the bill was after a full months cycle. Good luck with the baby

[DuckButter]

Thank you for getting back to us!

And yes, baths & long showers tend to use more hot water...keep us appraised.

[theoak]

Is there a shut-off for the gas nearby? Please comeback and tell us how the bill was after a full months cycle. Good luck with the baby

Yes, at the bottom just below the picture frame.

[JERRYMAC]

I DON'T KNOW WHO DID THE INSTALL
IT LOOKS SO NICE AND ALL ! ! !

TOO BAD IT'S INSTALLED WRONG, THE THERMAL EXPANSION TANK IS BACKWARDS :loser:

[NHMaster3015]

Good eye there Jerry. :happydance:

[JCsPlumbing]

Other than code (which I believe was originally written for storage type heaters which negates it's meaning here) , is a TXT really useful on a tankless? I know they can help with possible water hammer or pressure issues from municipal systems. But does anyone have proof that there really necessary with a tankless? Any tests with pressure numbers after a long firing cycle? :confused:

J.C.

[DuckButter]

Other than code (which I believe was originally written for storage type heaters which negates it's meaning here) , is a TXT really useful on a tankless? I know they can help with possible water hammer or pressure issues from municipal systems. But does anyone have proof that there really necessary with a tankless? Any tests with pressure numbers after a long firing cycle? :confused:

J.C.

Yes, one verified installation resolved a relief spewing when fixtures were shut off abruptly and noises on a laundry valve and toilet were stopped.
I wouldn't have thunk it either, but apparently even a smaller volume of hot water packs a punch...my guess is a HW tank has more of an "elastic" property as opposed to a tankless which is all pipe.

[gear junkie]

Other than code (which I believe was originally written for storage type heaters which negates it's meaning here) , is a TXT really useful on a tankless? I know they can help with possible water hammer or pressure issues from municipal systems. But does anyone have proof that there really necessary with a tankless? Any tests with pressure numbers after a long firing cycle? :confused:

J.C.
The code (ipc) doesn't go by storage or nonstorage tank for txt. It says the backflow device is the reason for the txt. The ipc does say only storage tank w/h are required to have a p/t relief vavle. None is needed for tankless. Jerry made a great point with the expansion tank on the wrong side. They're not designed for hot water and the bladder will prematurly fail.

[JCsPlumbing]

Agreed that TXT's are not designed for hot water. There literature says so. But I do recall seeing a max. temp. they could handle in there also. Anyway, they're not designed for hot water. But what do you do when you have a recirc. loop with check valves that creates a closed loop system that is constantly to temperature? You have to put in a TXT right? It has to be exposed to the hot water right? :confused: :rolleyes:

J.C.

[plumbworker]

i hope theres a accessible union on that gas line

[toolaholic]

Plumworker He's in Idaho. I;m in the bay area also. We can't use Unions on gas runs indoors here. I use left right couplings.The older homes in SF had them . Please correct Me if I'm wrong. Tool

[plumbworker]

Plumworker He's in Idaho. I;m in the bay area also. We can't use Unions on gas runs indoors here. I use left right couplings.The older homes in SF had them . Please correct Me if I'm wrong. Tool
you can use a union at an appliance in a accesible location.. left right nipples can be buried in walls etc

[toolaholic]

Thanks' ,Just saw union is missing on heater Itself! Interesting

[drtyhands]

you can use a union at an appliance in a accesible location.. left right nipples can be buried in walls etc

Same here.Unions approved if "immediately accessible".

[JCsPlumbing]

What about my TXT question? :(:D

J.C.

[DuckButter]

What about my TXT question? :(:D

J.C.

The loop should only have one check on it to prevent hot water from backfeeding ...not closed.

[drtyhands]

The loop should only have one check on it to prevent hot water from backfeeding ...not closed.

HUH?
:scratchhead:

Doesn't the check seal the hot???

[JCsPlumbing]

The loop should only have one check on it to prevent hot water from backfeeding ...not closed.

Are you saying to install the TXT on the entrance side (Cold) of the Check and you will still get the TXT benefits?

J.C.

[theoak]

Interesting stuff about the thermal expansion tank ...

That is how it was installed originally when I had my tank heater.

I also had two inspectors come to my home ... a city inspector and a natural gas inspector.

No body said anything about the expansion tank ... :confused:

It seems a little odd that it would pass the initial house inspection, the inspection when I bought the home and now the inspection again ...

I just called a plumber friend and he confirmed that the expansion tank should really be on the cold side. He said that it would maybe be a half hour work to correct.

I will call the installers on Monday and see what they say ... wish me luck ...

Thanks for the heads up folks ...

[drtyhands]

Interesting stuff about the thermal expansion tank ...

That is how it was installed originally when I had my tank heater.

I also had two inspectors come to my home ... a city inspector and a natural gas inspector.

No body said anything about the expansion tank ... :confused:

It seems a little odd that it would pass the initial house inspection, the inspection when I bought the home and now the inspection again ...

I just called a plumber friend and he confirmed that the expansion tank should really be on the cold side. He said that it would maybe be a half hour work to correct.

I will call the installers on Monday and see what they say ... wish me luck ...

Thanks for the heads up folks ...

Just goes to show how easy it is for some to make a mistake in plumbing.

[theoak]

I do have a question though ...

My hot and cold water goes into what I call a "water circuit breaker box". From there I have individual lines going to each water appliance.

For example, if I want to turn the water off in one of my sinks, I go down to my "water circuit box" and turn the water off there. I do not have a shut off valve under the sink like you would see in most homes.

Would this have any impact as far as the placement of the thermal expansion tank?

( Again, I am not a plumber ... so forgive my ignorance here if this is a "duh" question ;) )

Also ... as I posted above, this is how the expansion tank was from the start. If you were doing the install ... would you correct the expansion tank?

[drtyhands]

No it does not change anything you having a "manifold" system.
If I was aware of it I would change it.That's not to say if I was you.If I was you I would think of you I would think of the life of my tank.

Sounds like we're kindof splitting hairs here.

[JCsPlumbing]

Thought shutoffs we're required under each fixture.

J.C.

[theoak]

No it does not change anything you having a "manifold" system.
If I was aware of it I would change it.That's not to say if I was you.If I was you I would think of you I would think of the life of my tank.

Sounds like we're kindof splitting hairs here.

I certainly appreciate the feedback. I am simply trying to gather my facts such that when I approach the installers I sound like I know what I am talking about.

Worse case scenario is that the installers refuse to do anything ... it should not cost too much to have a plumber make the corrections.

I actually saw some expansion tanks at Home Depot the other day. Not sure how much they are ... but if they are reasonable, I may as well grab one and have a new one installed.

[plumberscrack]

Are you saying to install the TXT on the entrance side (Cold) of the Check and you will still get the TXT benefits?

J.C.

The expansion tank goes AFTER the the cold water check but not in the hot water return loop. See PDF of a Noritz heater

http://www.noritz.com/u/2a2_n751m_dhw_rec_qc.pdf

Gear Junkie is right ;) The IPC does not require TXT on tankless but every tankless manufacturer I've seen requires one.

No way am I installing a 200,000 BTU heater without one

[theoak]

Thought shutoffs we're required under each fixture.

J.C.

I don't have any ... ;)

My house was built in 99. Perhaps it was not code then ... :scratchhead:

I purchased it in 01.

My plumber friend said that expansion tanks were not required then either, so he was a little surprised that I had one.

[drtyhands]

I certainly appreciate the feedback. I am simply trying to gather my facts such that when I approach the installers I sound like I know what I am talking about.

Worse case scenario is that the installers refuse to do anything ... it should not cost too much to have a plumber make the corrections.

I actually saw some expansion tanks at Home Depot the other day. Not sure how much they are ... but if they are reasonable, I may as well grab one and have a new one installed.

Why do you want to replace your tank?
Is there something I missed?

The splitting hairs comment I was refering to us.There is nothing wrong with someone (like yourself) asking many questions.

[plumberscrack]

Why do you want to replace your tank?
Is there something I missed?

The splitting hairs comment I was refering to us.There is nothing wrong with someone (like yourself) asking many questions.

It's installed on HOT side :eek:

And upside down I believe :confused:

[drtyhands]

It's installed on HOT side :eek:

And upside down I believe :confused:

Crack,
Sorry Bud,I don't know.Is there a good enough possibility the membrane is blown.

[theoak]

The expansion tank goes AFTER the the cold water check but not in the hot water return loop. See PDF of a Noritz heater

http://www.noritz.com/u/2a2_n751m_dhw_rec_qc.pdf

Gear Junkie is right ;) The IPC does not require TXT on tankless but every tankless manufacturer I've seen requires one.

No way am I install a 200,000 BTU heater without one

Actually ... this is good ... it appears in reference to a circulation system, but the Rinnai manual shows the same thing ... again, in reference to a circulation system.

The fact though that it displays the expansion tank on the cold water side might give me some muscle ...

[JCsPlumbing]

P-crack, the Noritz diagram also shows the TXT exposed to hot water in the recirc diagram.

On a side note, as much as I dislike the tankless hype, I dislike a recirc. system with them even more.

J.C.

[plumberscrack]

Looks new enough that's it's probably ok but maybe suspect. He can remove it and pressure test it.

[theoak]

Why do you want to replace your tank?
Is there something I missed?

The splitting hairs comment I was refering to us.There is nothing wrong with someone (like yourself) asking many questions.

Crack,
Sorry Bud,I don't know.Is there a good enough possibility the membrane is blown.

Can the membrame be checked? There were some posts a while back that seemed to suggest that the expansion tank could be damaged as it is not designed for hot water.

That is why I mentioned that if they were reasonable, may as well buy a new one ...

[JCsPlumbing]

Courtroom Drama:

"ABC Plumbing, did you install a TXT in a HW recirc. loop?" Yes.
"Did you read the manuf. instructions saying it's not for hot water?"Yes.
"Are you aware that the inspection office has been deemed immune from prosecution?" No.
"Members of the jury, we have expert testimony and letters from the manufacturer stating that the TXT failed while the plaintiff was on vacation because it was installed on the HW side causing $80,000 in damages that ABC Plumbing is obviously responsible for......"

I know this sounds nuts but you never know. :rolleyes:

J.C.

[plumberscrack]

P-crack, the Noritz diagram also shows the TXT exposed to hot water in the recirc diagram.

On a side note, as much as I dislike the tankless hype, I dislike a recirc. system with them even more.

J.C.

It's kept separate from the return loop so very little exposure (if any) to hot water. Only way it would be exposed to hot water would be through convection/conduction. Not enough to damage the diaphram IMO.

What that diagram doesn't show is a small storage tank to alleviate sandwiching effects

[DuckButter]

HUH?
:scratchhead:

Doesn't the check seal the hot???

On one side, to keep the hot water from flowing from the return side of the loop, the feed is still open.

Yer confuziin' me....how could a recirc loop be closed from the tank and still allow flow to the fixtures?

You recirc back to the tank, check goes on the return to keep hot water from flowing from the return when a fixture is opened.

Either I'm having one big brain fart, ot we're talking two different languages.

[DuckButter]

Are you saying to install the TXT on the entrance side (Cold) of the Check and you will still get the TXT benefits?

J.C.

J.C., you're s'posed to install them on the cold side of the water heater, not the recirc.

[JCsPlumbing]

Duck, maybe we're both "brain stuttering."

I know where the check goes on a recirc lines but the TXT is drawn to be put at the outlet end of the check putting it in constant contact with hot water.

If you put it on the inlet side of the check then you don't get the use of the TXT but it's on the cold water. Kind of a catch 22?

J.C.

[JCsPlumbing]

Also Duck, I think we're thinking of a recirc with a pump rather than the "thermal engine" with no pump.

J.C.

[theoak]

While I've got extra sets of eyes, here is the rest of the installation. Feel free to give it a once over ... thanks.

[JCsPlumbing]

What type of fuel Oak?

J.C.

[DuckButter]

The check would be open when flow moves back to the cold side.
T expansion would pass through the check.

Unless my stoner years have finally caught up with me, I don't see how it's necessary to install the TXT on the recirc.

[JCsPlumbing]

No answer. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

You're fuel piping might be undersized and have to be redone. You'll find out this winter I guess.

Also, it looks in the pictures like the threads are taped with Teflon. NO. If so, all are gonna have to be redone anyway.

J.C.

[DuckButter]

Gettin' a weird feel here...

What kind of fuel is it again?

[theoak]

What type of fuel Oak?

J.C.

Natural gas.

[theoak]

No answer. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

You're fuel piping might be undersized and have to be redone. You'll find out this winter I guess.

Also, it looks in the pictures like the threads are taped with Teflon. NO. If so, all are gonna have to be redone anyway.

J.C.

I had 3 contractors come out. All said that my piping would not need to be upgraded. They did up the gas pressure however.

I think I am okay ...

I do have a year of installation warranty ... if the winter proves to be difficult ... hopefully the warranty will cover it.

[spodelee]

I had 3 contractors come out. All said that my piping would not need to be upgraded. They did up the gas pressure however.

I think I am okay ...

I do have a year of installation warranty ... if the winter proves to be difficult ... hopefully the warranty will cover it.

So they went medium pressure gas supply.... did they remove or change the regulator at the meter? If so, were regulators installed at other appliances like at the gas stove and furnace?

The tankless heater will run with inadequate gas pressure. It just won't have as much capacity as it should. But, it could cause inadequate gas pressure to other gas appliances, which could be very dangerous.

Consider asking your installing contractor to perform a "running" gas pressure test. This requires measuring the gas pressure at the water heater gas inlet with a manometer, and the water heater, gas furnace and stove "100% on". The gas pressure should not drop below 5" w.c. It might be a good idea to check running pressure on all gas appliances, depending on how much gas pipe modification was performed.

Remember - not a static pressure test - a running pressure test.

Your installing contractor should not be opposed to showing you that their "re-engineering" of your gas piping is adequate (assuming that is what happened).

Also, reducing from 3/4' gas connection to 1/2" is a no-no around here; even if the 1/2" pipe is capable of the volume over such a short distance. Most tankless units have a 3/4" gas connection and the inspector will be looking for a 3/4" pipe connection at the unit.

Permit?

What do you think guys? Am I too aggressive here?

[spodelee]

I do have a year of installation warranty ... if the winter proves to be difficult ... hopefully the warranty will cover it.

Proper installation is not about there being a problem but that problem not being bad enough for you to notice.

Proper installation is about installing a product in accordance with the manufacturer's recommendation. Remember what Plumber Rick said several posts back, "he has fixed many that were installed wrong (or something to thast effect).

Gas appliances that fail prematurely, harm people or damage property are almost always installed or maintained incorrectly.

[plumberscrack]

He had a 2 psi regulator installed. Looks OK to me other than the teflon tape. I might have piped it differently though.

[gear junkie]

I've seen yellow tef tape made for gas. What's the problem with it?

[drtyhands]

I'm not quite sure when to jump in here.Without a recirc it's easy to see where the tank is installed.Once the check is installed we have a closed loop,now we have a device that could have the tendancy to increase pressure at any given time regardless of usage opening the check to the maybe higher street pressure.

Don't worry about your past Duck.I'm fairly positive I've toasted quite a few brain cells than your average plumber:joyful:

[drtyhands]

That regulator does not need to be vented to the outside atmosphere?

[DuckButter]

I'm not quite sure when to jump in here.Without a recirc it's easy to see where the tank is installed.Once the check is installed we have a closed loop,now we have a device that could have the tendancy to increase pressure at any given time regardless of usage opening the check to the maybe higher street pressure.

Don't worry about your past Duck.I'm fairly positive I've toasted quite a few brain cells than your average plumber:joyful:

The check is on the return side of the loop to prevent cold water from flowing when a hot fixture is turned on.
If the heated loop has any expansion, it either pushes back on the hot, or back through the check into the cold.

I'm missing where you think this is a closed loop.:confused:

[DuckButter]

I had 3 contractors come out. All said that my piping would not need to be upgraded. They did up the gas pressure however.

I think I am okay ...

I do have a year of installation warranty ... if the winter proves to be difficult ... hopefully the warranty will cover it.

In my state, some commercial applications had higher gas pressure on NG, but even that has been done away with.

To my knowledge, thats very unusual in any state...especially on a residence.

[drtyhands]

The check is on the return side of the loop to prevent cold water from flowing when a hot fixture is turned on.
If the heated loop has any expansion, it either pushes back on the hot, or back through the check into the cold.

I'm missing where you think this is a closed loop.:confused:

AHHHH!! This is twice now:angry:
I was seeing a check on the cold supply into the loop for makeup.I see what you've trying to say now.
Sorry Duck.

[theoak]

So they went medium pressure gas supply.... did they remove or change the regulator at the meter? If so, were regulators installed at other appliances like at the gas stove and furnace?
...
Also, reducing from 3/4' gas connection to 1/2" is a no-no around here; even if the 1/2" pipe is capable of the volume over such a short distance. Most tankless units have a 3/4" gas connection and the inspector will be looking for a 3/4" pipe connection at the unit.
...


He had a 2 psi regulator installed. Looks OK to me other than the teflon tape. I might have piped it differently though.

It might be hard to tell in the pictures ...

I have 3/4 inch gas pipe to the tankless. I have 1/2 inch to my furnace. That is the only othe gas applicance that I have. I think it was the last picture that showed that ... I don't show the furnace however.

Yes, the way they had it explained to me, they were installing a new "spring" at the meter to allow more gas to come in.

I had both a city inspector and a natural gas inspector come out ... you would think that they would have said something if something was not according to spec ... mind you ... they both missed the TXT on the wrong side too ...

When all three contractors were here, I asked specifically if I need a larger gas line. They all said no. These were all contractors recommended by Rinnai too ... so I would hope they would know ...

I actually talked to a fourth contractor too. He was too busy (he said he could come out in 3 weeks) to come out to do an estimate however. So I described to him my setup over the phone. He also stated that my gas requirements were fine. He mentioned that if I had another gas applicance he would need to up my line to 1 inch. He would need to come out and verify the lengths that I had quoted to him however. While informative, he did not seem too eager for my business.

Like I said ... wish me luck when I call these guys back on Monday ... hopefully I will get some answers.

[Masterplumb]

I've seen yellow tef tape made for gas. What's the problem with it?

Teflon, at least the regular type (white one) is not made for gas. As a matter of fact I wouldn't trust the other stuff on gas.

[spodelee]

It might be hard to tell in the pictures ...

I have 3/4 inch gas pipe to the tankless. I have 1/2 inch to my furnace. That is the only othe gas applicance that I have. I think it was the last picture that showed that ... I don't show the furnace however.

Yes, the way they had it explained to me, they were installing a new "spring" at the meter to allow more gas to come in.

I had both a city inspector and a natural gas inspector come out ... you would think that they would have said something if something was not according to spec ... mind you ... they both missed the TXT on the wrong side too ...

When all three contractors were here, I asked specifically if I need a larger gas line. They all said no. These were all contractors recommended by Rinnai too ... so I would hope they would know ...

I actually talked to a fourth contractor too. He was too busy (he said he could come out in 3 weeks) to come out to do an estimate however. So I described to him my setup over the phone. He also stated that my gas requirements were fine. He mentioned that if I had another gas applicance he would need to up my line to 1 inch. He would need to come out and verify the lengths that I had quoted to him however. While informative, he did not seem too eager for my business.

Like I said ... wish me luck when I call these guys back on Monday ... hopefully I will get some answers.

Wow, it's always amazing to see how differently things are done throughout the country. I don't think I have ever seen medium pressure on a residential property in California, and we definitely do not modify gas company regulators. Like Duck said, medium pressure is real common in commercial (usually to compensate for long gas runs on big buildings). I would still ask for a running test though, especially if the existing gas line is long and/or makes many turns before it reaches the mechanical closet.

[rick1643]

I'd be concerned about the 1/2" gas line, I've always run 3/4" all the way, thats what is recommended.

[ToUtahNow]

Anyone watch the Olympics tonight?

[drtyhands]

Anyone watch the Olympics tonight?
All day.I was watching the swimmers on beijing olympic website a few hours ago.Why:p

[theoak]

Wow, it's always amazing to see how differently things are done throughout the country. I don't think I have ever seen medium pressure on a residential property in California, and we definitely do not modify gas company regulators. Like Duck said, medium pressure is real common in commercial (usually to compensate for long gas runs on big buildings). I would still ask for a running test though, especially if the existing gas line is long and/or makes many turns before it reaches the mechanical closet.

Not sure if the contractors worked on the meter side or not. When the gas inspector came he was from the gas company itself. He did reconnect the meter. I did not watch him the whole time though. He was working there for a little bit. The meter was disconnected all night, not sure who disconnected it, and have this guage (looked like a tire guage) on it all night. I did not notice the guage though until the day after. It was reading "72" ... whatever that means.

As far as the length of my gas line ... it goes up my wall ... across my garage attic ... and back down again. No bends along the way. I have a regular 2 car garage.

So after all is said and done these are my conclusions.

1. I feel pretty confident about the gas line and pressue. I have "medium" pressure. The impression I get with that from this board is that I should be okay with this configuration. It might be odd and perhaps not what others might do, that does not necessarily make it wrong.

Concerns expressed:
A. There have been some concerns about the thread seal used.
B. There have been some recommendations about a "running" test.

2. The TXT is on the hot side and needs to be moved to the cold side.

Action Items:

1. Have the TXT moved to the cold side.
2. Inquire about concerns A and B as the TXT gets moved.

[drtyhands]

Wow, it's always amazing to see how differently things are done throughout the country. I don't think I have ever seen medium pressure on a residential property in California, and we definitely do not modify gas company regulators. Like Duck said, medium pressure is real common in commercial (usually to compensate for long gas runs on big buildings). I would still ask for a running test though, especially if the existing gas line is long and/or makes many turns before it reaches the mechanical closet.
We do it all the time.I was awarded a gas piping job at the GM design center(clay cars) in Van Nuys.My competitors told the General the price was so high cause they were going to be running 4".Imagine how much I knocked off because I was able to run 1-1/4".Oh they agreed to buy the regulators due to the major price reduction.Now were putting it in the highrise condos.The only thing is you need to vent the reg..
ADAM

[boillerman]

Can the membrame be checked? There were some posts a while back that seemed to suggest that the expansion tank could be damaged as it is not designed for hot water.

That is why I mentioned that if they were reasonable, may as well buy a new one ...

Yes they can check the membrane when they pull it out of there, they'll know from the pressure they put on it (should be pumped up close to your house pressure) still being there and not being waterlogged.

Last year, a plumber replaced an expansion tank on the hot side of a heater. This year, I was in that room replacing the water storage tank, noticed it, removed it and it was waterlogged. I repiped the new one into the cold water inlet side. It took out the bladder. May have taken out the storage tank too, although that could have been just ready to go.

Rick, I have been against the tankless for alot of the reasons you state, but now they have them out that are 98% efficient, aren't terribly overpriced, vent w/ PVC and include a 1/2 gallon tank and pump inside the case for recirc lines. Navien? And they base there gpm on enough temp rise to go from 40 degrees (which is what we're doing here some of the year.) They also have a companion heating box prepiped with a heat exchanger and pumps, relays, mixers etc for running a manifold for infloor or blower heat exchanger. I don't like the thought of losing all that kind of piping work but it's pretty interesting. Not ready to change my mind yet, but I'm thinking.

www.NavienAmerica.com (http://www.NavienAmerica.com)

Anyone use these? I'ld be real curious as to potential problems with either there installation or usage. Our local wholesaler we do most of our business with is now carrying these.

[PLUMBER RICK]

medium pressure on a residential installation is not real common, but is out there.

my brother purchased a new townhouse in irvine a couple years back. i was surprised to find 3/8'' csst/ gastite running to the meter.

in the attic was a regulator and a manifold to each appliance.

and yes the regulator needs to be vented to the outside.

also teflon tape is ok for gas. the real issue is to make sure that there is no overlap of the teflon beyond the male threads that can tear off and float in the gas system and plug an orifice.

the yellow teflon is just a thicker/mil, than the white. yellow is just a color for gas id. i've seen pink teflon:D that's for girl plumbers;)

an expansion tank is required in a system that contains any form of a check valve/backflow preventer. (upc 608.3).

you go out of town for a few days and come back to 5 pages of tankless talk:eek:

yes i took the laptop, but the wireless connection was sporadic.
adam kept me filled in;)

rick.

[theoak]

...
in the attic was a regulator and a manifold to each appliance.

and yes the regulator needs to be vented to the outside.
...


Okay ... I think I need a little lesson on what the regulator is.

Looking at this picture (http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4044&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1218914865) found at this post (http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=166591&postcount=168), is it the silver item to the immediate left of the blue valve and just prior to the 3/4 and 1/2 tee? Is there supposed to be some sort of piping attached to this?

How come such piping is not found here (http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=114272&postcount=42)? Or is it, and I have just missed it?

Thanks ...

[boillerman]

Most appliance gas valves have a regulator built into them. Most places, you wouldn't need another regulator, since there is likely one out by your meter or tank, then just before the gas enters the house. On occasion, almost always commercial, the gas pressure will be a little higher than the appliance valve can take. In that case, another regulator would be in the line to the appliance. You should never ever touch these. :nono: They are set rather precisely, often with all the appliances running and the person from the gas company there along with a service man using gauges to measure the pressure.

[PLUMBER RICK]

Okay ... I think I need a little lesson on what the regulator is.

Looking at this picture (http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4044&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1218914865) found at this post (http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=166591&postcount=168), is it the silver item to the immediate left of the blue valve and just prior to the 3/4 and 1/2 tee? Is there supposed to be some sort of piping attached to this?

How come such piping is not found here (http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=114272&postcount=42)? Or is it, and I have just missed it?

Thanks ...

actually the pressure regulator is found on each one of the tankless that aaron's photos show.

every gas appliance has a pressure regulator incorporated into it's design. for the exception of a log lighter pipe.

keep in mind that natural gas is typically set to 7'' of water column past the meter. then each appliance typically reduces it down to 3.5'' inches.
at least out here with our southern calif. gas co.

the reason for the regulator shown in your's and arrons photos is because the gas is medium pressure and needs a regulator to reduce the 2#-5# down to a lower level to allow the internal regulator to properly work.

rick.

[theoak]

actually the pressure regulator is found on each one of the tankless that aaron's photos show.

every gas appliance has a pressure regulator incorporated into it's design. for the exception of a log lighter pipe.

keep in mind that natural gas is typically set to 7'' of water column past the meter. then each appliance typically reduces it down to 3.5'' inches.
at least out here with our southern calif. gas co.

the reason for the regulator shown in your's and arrons photos is because the gas is medium pressure and needs a regulator to reduce the 2#-5# down to a lower level to allow the internal regulator to properly work.

rick.

So why would the regulator need to be vented to the outside? Or does it? How are the regulators vented to the outside in "Aaron's" photos? (Are they?)

[PLUMBER RICK]

So why would the regulator need to be vented to the outside? Or does it? How are the regulators vented to the outside in "Aaron's" photos? (Are they?)


there are certain pressure regulators that don't require venting to the outside. typically called vent limiting regulators. "ansi" z21.80

it's a pretty detailed code from both the upc 1209.7.5
and the nfpa 54:5.8.5.1 and 54:9.1.19 and 54:5.9.7

if you can access these codes, you can read all about it.

i have no real means of copying and posting them.

plus i type with 2 fingers:D

rick.

[theoak]

there are certain pressure regulators that don't require venting to the outside. typically called vent limiting regulators. "ansi" z21.80

it's a pretty detailed code from both the upc 1209.7.5
and the nfpa 54:5.8.5.1 and 54:9.1.19 and 54:5.9.7

if you can access these codes, you can read all about it.

i have no real means of copying and posting them.

plus i type with 2 fingers:D

rick.

The only reason why I ask is that folks here kept on saying that my regulator needed to be vented.

So I wanted to understand first what a regulator was and then looking at another example (Aaron's picture) try to understand where the regulators were vented to the outside in that example.

I was not asking for the code.

The only conclusion that I can come to is that it appears then by virtue of the fact that my installation passed inspection, that the regulator that was installed in my case does not need to be vented to the outside.

[NHMaster3015]

If your regulators vent outlet is threaded it needs to be vented to the outside. In use the diaghpragm on a regulator will allow small amounts of gas to vent. If the regulator diaghpragm leaks or sticks it will vent a lot of gas.

High pressure gas is not uncommon in the North east. My city runs anywhere from 2 to 60+ pounds in the mains.

Typically the regulator that comes with the appliance is Non vented

[boillerman]

Anyone see this months Consumer Reports Magazine? Oct 08 issue deals with this question, finally. A real independant opinion.

[DuckButter]

Anyone see this months Consumer Reports Magazine? Oct 08 issue deals with this question, finally. A real independant opinion.

Care to elaborate?
Or do we need to go buy a subscription...

[boillerman]

They figured the savings compared to the cost, figured it would take 22 years to break even, longer than the 20 year life of many models. Online poll of 1200 readers had wide variations in installation costs, energy savings, and satisfaction. And they apparently didn't figure in the once a year service call to clean them, even though they spent $330 to have a plumber come in, set it up and clean it. They had more to say, and included a link to their own online calculator to determine how big a one you might need, but it's a two page article so I thought I'ld let you all know about it in case you're interested. You can probably get the Oct issue or check it out at the library.:rolleyes:

[Tom W]

I have been watching this post with interest but have hesitated to make any response. My mother and step-father have two tankless and one tanked water heater. The tanked water heater is for a half bath and the kitchen. The two tankless are each for a bathroom off the bedrooms. I learned a long time ago to not ask why so I don't know. Probably the same reason why at 83 and 86 years old they had 40 year shingles put on their house even though the roofer told them they were wasting their money. Their answer, they hadn't bought shingles in a long time. Or why he paid $275.00 each for tires for a VW Jetta. He hadn't bought tires in a long time.

They get something in their head, they justify it (he is a retired engineer and she is stubborn) then they do it. The plumbing contractor who did the installations is a great guy who has been doing their/our work for years. I doubt there was any underhanded nuttiness going on in terms of attempting to make an additional sale. But he was probably pretty happy when he received the check.

-Tom

[NHMaster3015]

Yea, 20 years or so is about what we figured. Big surprise yes?

[boillerman]

I have been watching this post with interest but have hesitated to make any response. My mother and step-father have two tankless and one tanked water heater. The tanked water heater is for a half bath and the kitchen. The two tankless are each for a bathroom off the bedrooms. I learned a long time ago to not ask why so I don't know. Probably the same reason why at 83 and 86 years old they had 40 year shingles put on their house even though the roofer told them they were wasting their money. Their answer, they hadn't bought shingles in a long time. Or why he paid $275.00 each for tires for a VW Jetta. He hadn't bought tires in a long time.

They get something in their head, they justify it (he is a retired engineer and she is stubborn) then they do it. The plumbing contractor who did the installations is a great guy who has been doing their/our work for years. I doubt there was any underhanded nuttiness going on in terms of attempting to make an additional sale. But he was probably pretty happy when he received the check.

-Tom

Probably smart not to ask why:smilewinkgrin: I've installed several of these, but have been asked about them more times than I can count. The logic the advertisers do for their savings just doesn't add up to those in the know in the business, but you don't argue with a customer that is bent on doing it their way. You point out what you can, once a decision is made you do your best to make them feel good about it.

[JCsPlumbing]

Probably smart not to ask why:smilewinkgrin: I've installed several of these, but have been asked about them more times than I can count. The logic the advertisers do for their savings just doesn't add up to those in the know in the business, but you don't argue with a customer that is bent on doing it their way. You point out what you can, once a decision is made you do your best to make them feel good about it.

Been saying it all along. Maybe I won't have to say "you're right" as much if they customers read the article. Now just imagine the payback scale if Consumer Reports would have used my investment scenario of the extra funds. (Maybe they did, haven't read the article yet.)

And for Tom W. You're stepfather is an engineer. He's never wrong and has the numbers off the sliderule to prove it. (Kidding. Sort of.....:rolleyes:)

J.C.

[plumberscrack]

When it comes to tankless, you guys can talk all you want about cost versus payback. Bend the numbers anyway you want them to go if that what makes you feel better.

For me, when I'm selling a tankless, it's NEVER about the numbers. When I can give them floorspace in a closet that they have never been able to use, the wallets just seem to fly open. Storage is at a premium here.

[JCsPlumbing]

When it comes to tankless, you guys can talk all you want about cost versus payback. Bend the numbers anyway you want them to go if that what makes you feel better.

For me, when I'm selling a tankless, it's NEVER about the numbers. When I can give them floorspace in a closet that they have never been able to use, the wallets just seem to fly open. Storage is at a premium here.

That's an excellent point. And one of the main reasons they were developed overseas. That's what I tell customers. I can give them x amount of hotwater at x temperature rise in this amount of space. But I cannot prove a payback to them.

J.C.

[boillerman]

If space were an issue I'ld say here's your answer! I guess that's a big city thing. Out here we have a thing we call acres. You just add a few square feet to your house, you know?

[DuckButter]

When it comes to tankless, you guys can talk all you want about cost versus payback. Bend the numbers anyway you want them to go if that what makes you feel better.

For me, when I'm selling a tankless, it's NEVER about the numbers. When I can give them floorspace in a closet that they have never been able to use, the wallets just seem to fly open. Storage is at a premium here.

Never running out of hot water helps, the numbers stated from Boilermans consumer reports has me wondering what figures they used, and whether they just did a generalized average per home.

Would be nice to see the actual report.

The $300 a year for flushing is redundant, a caveman can do it.

[JCsPlumbing]

Duckman, you know I respect you. But I gotta' say that in my experience people will not maintain their plumbing. They'll call the plumber when the tankless starts restricting flow because of mineral buildup.

J.C.

[PLUMBER RICK]

The $300 a year for flushing is redundant, a caveman can do it.

duck, i don't know about your customers, but i don't think 5% of my customers have ever flushed their own tank water heater.

i doubt i would expect them to maintain their own tankless heaters.

with a tank, no flushing equals shortened tank life.

with a tankless, no flushing equals less hot water volume and shortened life.

to flush a tank takes a garden hose and less than a minute of time. remember it doesn't have to be drained, but just flushed from the hose bibb with the water still on.

to flush a tankless, it takes a pump with hoses, proper bypass valves, vinegar or cleaner, some proper knowledge and a good 30 minutes or so.

do you really think the person that won't take 30 seconds to flush their tanks, would take the time and knowledge to flush their tankless:confused:

i know i would, but i doubt others would.

rick.

[plumberjr]

rick is right---this is my biggest challenge with tankless---everyone wants one and wants to forget about it ---they wont maintain them---luckily, the rinnai's shutdown and read lc if there is a lot of buildup inside so u have to clean it--the best addition yet--tankless r not to be forgotten, as they do need tlc, too--- i sell everyone with the valve package, and i see lots that do not have any valves to flush, which mean repipng when you have to do maint---

[rick1643]

I'd like to read that article also. I installed three Noritz tankless last week, and am doing one tomorrow. I always stress to the homeowner to flush tanked or tankless once a year, but Rick is right...maybe 5% ever do. I also install a service valve to the tankless and recommend either they do it or call me and I'll do it for a service call. Its kind of like Leonard's inspection call, and for the "while your here" call. The pro's for tankless are space saving, endless hot water, no standing pilot, and rebates. I'd like to be able to tell them the gas savings but want figures to back that up.

[DuckButter]

duck, i don't know about your customers, but i don't think 5% of my customers have ever flushed their own tank water heater.

i doubt i would expect them to maintain their own tankless heaters.

with a tank, no flushing equals shortened tank life.

with a tankless, no flushing equals less hot water volume and shortened life.

to flush a tank takes a garden hose and less than a minute of time. remember it doesn't have to be drained, but just flushed from the hose bibb with the water still on.

to flush a tankless, it takes a pump with hoses, proper bypass valves, vinegar or cleaner, some proper knowledge and a good 30 minutes or so.

do you really think the person that won't take 30 seconds to flush their tanks, would take the time and knowledge to flush their tankless:confused:

i know i would, but i doubt others would.

rick.

Here's a trick...
Show them how to do it.
Get a sharpie, piece of paper & some tape.
Write the date installed on the paper, along with a reminder to flush annually and even a reminder what the installation cost.
Tape it to the front panel of the tankless.
Leave the pump, hoses and bucket right below the paper. (you can insist the customer pick them up while you install, or offer to include as extra on your bill)

It works.

I can't take credit for the idea...
I have a customer who actually did this, I suggest it to all my tankless installs.

You have a valid pooint, but completely discarding the option of tankless merely for this reason would be like telling people not to install swimming pools because they'll forget the maintanance.

The reason people don't forget the pool is that it's out in plain sight, you can't pretend not to see leaves, debri's & algea.

Make the tankless annual cleaning plain to see, a reminder of what it cost will suffice as ample motivation to take the hour a year to flush.

[DuckButter]

Humorous after-thought...
We gonna start telling folks to go nude because it takes 2 hours a week to maintain laundry?

Granted, people almost never flush tank heaters..for the reasons I stated above.

[theoak]

Here's a trick...
Show them how to do it.
Get a sharpie, piece of paper & some tape.
Write the date installed on the paper, along with a reminder to flush annually and even a reminder what the installation cost.
Tape it to the front panel of the tankless.
Leave the pump, hoses and bucket right below the paper. (you can insist the customer pick them up while you install, or offer to include as extra on your bill)

It works.

I can't take credit for the idea...
I have a customer who actually did this, I suggest it to all my tankless installs.

You have a valid pooint, but completely discarding the option of tankless merely for this reason would be like telling people not to install swimming pools because they'll forget the maintanance.

The reason people don't forget the pool is that it's out in plain sight, you can't pretend not to see leaves, debri's & algea.

Make the tankless annual cleaning plain to see, a reminder of what it cost will suffice as ample motivation to take the hour a year to flush.

I am not a plumber, but I think this is a really good idea ...

It might be shooting yourself in the foot a little ...

But if my installer said something to the effect of:

I can install tankless brand Y for X dollars. For $100 (insert value here) more, I can also supply you with the pump and hoses to flush it yourself, or you can have me come and visit every year for $100 (insert value here).

Depending on the price, I would have paid the extra ...

Like I said, it might be shooting yourself in the foot, but if you guys rarely get service calls on these units until they break anyway, at least more than a flush will fix, it might not be a bad way to get a few more bucks out of the job.

[wrench spinner]

why not offer a flushing/inspection contract? For $100 a year you can have your unit inspected by our compnay so you dont have to worry about it. Then send out postcard mailers, similiar to how jack suggested. Please call 1-800-duckbutter between 8am and 5pm on monday thru friday to schedule your yearly inspection/cleaning. this may inturn drum up more business, you will be getting your foot in the customers door at least once a year. While there chances are the customer will "remember" that running toilet, or leaky faucet, that they have been putting off calling you out for! since you ahve already made the service call fee on the job you can perform the work at a "discounted" rate. Is all this would take to implement is a decent calender program most of us already have sucah as outlook, set a reminder to go off say a month in advance of the one year or six months to send out the postcard, that you CAN print yourself!

[DuckButter]

why not offer a flushing/inspection contract? For $100 a year you can have your unit inspected by our compnay so you dont have to worry about it. Then send out postcard mailers, similiar to how jack suggested. Please call 1-800-duckbutter between 8am and 5pm on monday thru friday to schedule your yearly inspection/cleaning. this may inturn drum up more business, you will be getting your foot in the customers door at least once a year. While there chances are the customer will "remember" that running toilet, or leaky faucet, that they have been putting off calling you out for! since you ahve already made the service call fee on the job you can perform the work at a "discounted" rate. Is all this would take to implement is a decent calender program most of us already have sucah as outlook, set a reminder to go off say a month in advance of the one year or six months to send out the postcard, that you CAN print yourself!

lol...I'm going to look that number up.

Seriously, that defeats the point...overall cost vs savings.

And...YES...great idea...Jack'll be proud.

[NHMaster3015]

hell Ducky, there's no way I'm telling or showing the customer how to flush his tankless, after all it's the gift that just keeps on giving.:D

[DuckButter]

hell Ducky, there's no way I'm telling or showing the customer how to flush his tankless, after all it's the gift that just keeps on giving.:D

You bad, bad person.

[PLUMBER RICK]

not sure about where you guys live, but i can tell you that out here, i don't think i have 1 customer out of 1100 that do their own lawn, clean their own pool.

i have very few that ever flush their own tank heater.

sounds great that you can get your customers flushing their own heaters, but in reality, out here people either ignore the basics or will hire me when it's broken.

flushing is not difficult, but there is more to it than just running vinegar.
how about cleaning out the screen filter? cleaning out faucet aerators and flow restrictors.

sure it easy for us, but i just don't see the average jo, doing their own maintenance on a tankless heater:scratchhead:

rick.

[DuckButter]

Rick, if your average client doesn't mow their own lawns or clean their own pools, then your loosing a large volume in sales potential for the luxury of tankless.

Why, oh why in the world would someone who doles out a couple $K a year on landscaping be concerned with potentially not breaking even over ten years on a tankless escapes me.

I'm not saying become a walking salespitch for the things, but they are a heck of alot more convenient for larger families...all money aside.

[JCsPlumbing]

Duck, you lean towards tankless.Others do too.
Rick doesn't. Neither do I.

But I think we're :deadhorse:

J.C.

[BHC]

I have been selling and installing Rinnai Tankless water heaters for 7 Years now. All my customers have been really pleased with the cost savings and price of the installation that I have been installing them for in the Lansing Michigan area. Customers have been telling me they are averaging a 40% savings annually, so it shouldn't take 10 years to recoupe the cost. Also a lot of the problems people are having with tankless is not having a trained proffesional install and properly size the units with proper gas line size and water line size.:thumbup::party-time:

[JCsPlumbing]

Welcome to the Forum BHC. You're 100% right about people installing them wrong. Both homeowners and "professionals" have done so. With 7 years of installs you've probably seen some screwups, right?

I'm leaning more towards tankless but am not there yet. I find each resident/business H/W needs always a little different that you have to analyze to come up with the best solution whether it be a tank or a tankless.

J.C.

[boillerman]

I have been selling and installing Rinnai Tankless water heaters for 7 Years now. All my customers have been really pleased with the cost savings and price of the installation that I have been installing them for in the Lansing Michigan area. Customers have been telling me they are averaging a 40% savings annually, so it shouldn't take 10 years to recoupe the cost. Also a lot of the problems people are having with tankless is not having a trained proffesional install and properly size the units with proper gas line size and water line size.:thumbup::party-time:



You're right about improper installations and sizing. When high eff boilers first came out it was the same thing (anyone remember Glowcore? Around here a company put in a bunch of them without really knowing how best to do it). I would highly doubt anyone around Lansing gets a 40% drop by using the Rannai though. A lot of people say they save, cause they want to feel good about it, but I've never had a single person come up with the facts (and yes I ask, do the same thing w/ jobs where I put in outdoor resets, hi-eff boilers, or repipes). The never high efficiency ones that are coming out might save some money, but even so the actual amount of the water heating bill was never that much until now. The last year or two MAYBE with the increased gas cost. I still say it's a 20 + payback for a Rannai, and it would take proof to convince me otherwise. The logic just isn't there.

Welcome to the forum by the way.

[theoak]

I can actually give some preliminary data from last months bill. When the gas company upped my pressure, my "billing factor" changed. Therefore I can get a rough idea on my savings:

With Tank
Jul 11 - Jul 24
14 days
7 (100 ft3)
0.94 billing factor
Total Therms: 7 * 0.94 = 6.58
Total Therms Billed: 7 (My gas company rounds)
Therms / day: 7 / 14 = 0.50

With Tankless
Jul 25 - Aug 12
18 days
6 (100 ft3)
1.06 billing factor
Total Therms: 6 * 1.06 = 6.36
Total Therms Billed: 6 (My gas company rounds)
Therms / day: 6 / 18 = .33

Savings (tankless / tank):

.33 / .50 = .67 or 33% savings.

This months projections:
Last year I was billed 17 (100 ft3) at the meter, but the billing factor was 0.94 which resulted in 16 therms billed for 32 days.

As of Sept 9th, 28 days into my billing cycle, I had used 11 (100 ft3) at the meter. Therefore, I am on track for using 12.57 (100 ft3) (at the meter) over a 32 day period. This gives be a savings projection of 26% (1 - (11 * 32 / 28 / 17)) at the meter. The billing factor, rounding, and the actual day count is going to play a factor in what I eventually get billed.

My savings thus far has been in the 26% (projected) to 33% range. I would think the savings would grow as the weather gets colder ...

Again though, for me, this is just icing on the cake. Never ending hot water is the big bang for me ...

[PLUMBER RICK]

not to burst anyones bubble, but this was on our local news today and was done by consumer reports.

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/consumer&id=6383912

rick.

[DuckButter]

not to burst anyones bubble, but this was on our local news today and was done by consumer reports.

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/consumer&id=6383912

rick.

This is just a report on opinion, no math, no facts stated.
We've done a better job at that on this thread.

This statement in and of itself is the biggest misconception of why a tankless saves money:
"Tankless water heaters are more energy-efficient because they don't store hot water. They only heat water when needed. "

Again, a tankless saves very little on standby heat loss - about $4 to $5 a month, the savings is from the burners efficiency.
Not every news report is factual, this one looks like fill to cover a page.

It's just a vague story, no facts sited, no math.

[theoak]

Personally, I don't see the big deal with the article.

Back in my "tank days", I remember when someone was in the other shower, as soon as the other shower kicked in, I would have to turn the hot water up a little on my shower to keep the temperature. Depending on how long I stayed in the shower, every minute or so, I would continue to have to up the hot a little until I was done, or ran out of hot water.

Now, when someone jumps in the second shower, I do nothing but shower. I don't have to touch the hot water at all. I can also stay there as long as I please.

Each application has its "quirks". We just happen to be "used" to the tank quirks. To each their own ...

[DuckButter]

Theoak, by the way, THANK YOU!

Very few homeowners come back and contribute, it's appreciated.

[theoak]

Got my September bill ... here are the details:

Meter Reading
1513 - 1524
11 (100 ft3)
Days 29
Billing Factor: 1.069
Therms (11 * 1.069): 11.759
Therms Billed: 12

Last year for this month I was billed for 16 therms (17 100 ft3 of natural gas was used, but the billing factor dropped it) over 32 days. Using the data above, but assuming I had a 32 day billing cycle I would end up with projected values of:

11 * 32 / 29 = 12.13

Therefore, my meter would have read 12 (100 ft3) of natural gas used.

Therms: 12 * 1.069 = 12.828
Therms billed: 13

Natural gas used this year (projected 32 days) / Natural gas last year (32 days):

Projected Meter Difference: 12 / 17 = 0.71 or 29%.
Projected Therm Difference: 13 therms / 16 therms = 0.81 or 19%.

Just looking at the bill as is of this year versus last year:

Meter Difference: 11 / 17 = 0.65 or 35%
Therm Difference: 12 / 16 = 0.75 or 25%

Things are going to get real complicated if I try to keep on equalizing the bills (days and billing factor could get hairy), so for simplicity sake I am just going to take the bills as is and compare the savings from bill to bill. (The following month should compensate I would think anyway ...)

Therefore, for this month's "bill", I am going to conclude I had a 25% savings over last year.

Last month, technically the savings was zero because the therms billed versus last year were the same. Last year was a partial month however due to the fact that I had the tankless installed mid-month.

(I will add that as far as hot water usage goes, my wife is spinning the meter pretty good. She had 3 baths last night. Being 37 weeks pregnant, the baths seem to be the only thing that helps with the pain. My guess is another week ... )

[JCsPlumbing]

Oakey. Two questions.

1)What exact model tankless are you using. Not just brand but model.

2)What's been your average therm/month savings to this point. Please, no billing factors etc. as I get a little crosseyed reading it.

Thanks.

J.C.

[theoak]

Oakey. Two questions.

1)What exact model tankless are you using. Not just brand but model.

2)What's been your average therm/month savings to this point. Please, no billing factors etc. as I get a little crosseyed reading it.

Thanks.

J.C.

1.

Rinnai 75LSi Natural Gas.

2.

Last year I was billed 16 therms. This year, I was billed 12 therms.

12 / 16 = 0.75, therefore a 25% savings.

I have only had it for one full "billing" month thus far.

[theoak]

What would also add further detail, which is data that I do not have, is my actual water use. My water company bills every other month and I do not think gives me a lot of detail.

I am more than certain my water usage has gone up for this month versus last year for this month as:

1. School started earlier this year.
2. The wife is pregnant this year and is hence taking a lot of baths.
3. I had a baby last year too ( Yes, I need another hobby ;) ), so I had one more kid to bath.

[lumpy37]

I did not read all 24 pages of this discussion so I hope I am not asking an already answered question. When I spoke to an installer about these heaters he posed some interesting points. When the heater is first started it has a prepurge cycle (7seconds) for the flue, at this time cold water is passing through the heater, then it fires and delivers hot water. When the water is turned off it then goes to post purge (7seconds) for the flue. If another faucet is turned on during the post purge it finishes that then prepurges and fires with a "cold water sandwich" for 14 seconds then hot water. each time the heater fires there will be cold water somewhere in the cycle. I have people tell me that you get cold water at first with a tanked heater but once the hot is at the faucet you are using you can turn it on and off and still have hot water and not worry about that 7 seconds of cold that will be coming.

Next was the issue of the flushing of the tank each year so as not to get a build up of minerals. I know this issue has been addressed already but it is more annual cost that brings down the rate of return on the savings.;)

Also itwould seem that this may lead to the two children in my house taking longer showers. The 50 gallon tank that I have is like a built in shower timer. If I had unlimited hot water I think the water bill would increase and therby lowering my rate of return on the savings also.;)

Any thoughts on this scenario??

[JCsPlumbing]

I did not read all 24 pages of this discussion so I hope I am not asking an already answered question. When I spoke to an installer about these heaters he posed some interesting points. When the heater is first started it has a prepurge cycle (7seconds) for the flue, at this time cold water is passing through the heater, then it fires and delivers hot water. When the water is turned off it then goes to post purge (7seconds) for the flue. If another faucet is turned on during the post purge it finishes that then prepurges and fires with a "cold water sandwich" for 14 seconds then hot water. each time the heater fires there will be cold water somewhere in the cycle. I have people tell me that you get cold water at first with a tanked heater but once the hot is at the faucet you are using you can turn it on and off and still have hot water and not worry about that 7 seconds of cold that will be coming.

Next was the issue of the flushing of the tank each year so as not to get a build up of minerals. I know this issue has been addressed already but it is more annual cost that brings down the rate of return on the savings.;)

Also itwould seem that this may lead to the two children in my house taking longer showers. The 50 gallon tank that I have is like a built in shower timer. If I had unlimited hot water I think the water bill would increase and therby lowering my rate of return on the savings also.;)

Any thoughts on this scenario??

You propose some points that Rick, I, and others have went 'round and 'round about through this thread. I've pointed these things out to customers and other plumbers that love tankless and they will fight 'til the end that tankless is the way to go. I am not sold yet.

Cold water sandwiching, incoming water temps vs. provided tables, investing the extra cost vs. savings vs. installation etc. etc.

It's been beat to death. But I thought of this the other day-what if a builder offered you a tankless upgrade on your new house for say....$1200.00. Alot of people would go for it. But here's the way I think of things sometimes:

You just financed $1200.00 for the life of the heater at X%. And you lose the investment % of $1200.00 during that time also. That could be 10%-15% on your finances. Besides the other flushing maintenance.

And I've never had a customer I couldn't make happy with a tank heater. They are usually sized incorrectly. I look at the house size, fixtures, amount of people, their age, family growth etc. And I call much later to make sure.

J.C.

[drtyhands]

Thanks J.C.
That's pretty much is the way I look at it.

[theoak]

I did not read all 24 pages of this discussion so I hope I am not asking an already answered question. When I spoke to an installer about these heaters he posed some interesting points. When the heater is first started it has a prepurge cycle (7seconds) for the flue, at this time cold water is passing through the heater, then it fires and delivers hot water. When the water is turned off it then goes to post purge (7seconds) for the flue. If another faucet is turned on during the post purge it finishes that then prepurges and fires with a "cold water sandwich" for 14 seconds then hot water. each time the heater fires there will be cold water somewhere in the cycle. I have people tell me that you get cold water at first with a tanked heater but once the hot is at the faucet you are using you can turn it on and off and still have hot water and not worry about that 7 seconds of cold that will be coming.

Next was the issue of the flushing of the tank each year so as not to get a build up of minerals. I know this issue has been addressed already but it is more annual cost that brings down the rate of return on the savings.;)

Also itwould seem that this may lead to the two children in my house taking longer showers. The 50 gallon tank that I have is like a built in shower timer. If I had unlimited hot water I think the water bill would increase and therby lowering my rate of return on the savings also.;)

Any thoughts on this scenario??

It all depends on how you define "rate of return".

Last month I saved 25% versus last year. That worked out to about $4. My wife is 38 weeks pregnant. My whole family can shower and if the contractions and/or baby are kicking her, she can turn around and have a bath for comfort. Even if last month I came out even as far as the monthly bill goes, I am willing to spend the $4 for the month if it gives her some peace. Would I ever get an ROI if my bills came out the same? Yes and no. Financially according to the books, no. If you were to ask my wife though ... I am sure it would be a different story ... ;)

I have 4 kids with one on the way. The big bang for tankless for me is the endless hot water. The "rate of return" for me is the endless hot water and the benefits that come with that, which for me, is priceless ( insert MasterCard commercial ;) )

As the kids get older though, you are right, they might be inclined to take longer showers. The Rinnai has an on/off button that could come in handy then ... :lol:

[theoak]

15 days into my billing cycle and I have used 6 therms. Last year at this billing cycle I had used 24 therms.

Things can get a little dicey here though as I can not remember when I started turning the heat on. October, especially the tail end of October can cool down here pretty quick. Last month I also added about 300 sq ft of heated living space to my 1800 sq ft home. The mornings already are getting kind of cool. I have a feeling I am going to have to kick on the heat.

Assuming I did not turn the heat on last year and I won't have to this year ... projected savings are anywhere from 25% to 50%.

[drtyhands]

15 days into my billing cycle and I have used 6 therms. Last year at this billing cycle I had used 24 therms.

Things can get a little dicey here though as I can not remember when I started turning the heat on. October, especially the tail end of October can cool down here pretty quick. Last month I also added about 300 sq ft of heated living space to my 1800 sq ft home. The mornings already are getting kind of cool. I have a feeling I am going to have to kick on the heat.

Assuming I did not turn the heat on last year and I won't have to this year ... projected savings are anywhere from 25% to 50%.

And your usage habits havent changed one bit.
.:rolleyes:

[PLUMBER RICK]

i average 7-8 therms a month in non winter heating months.

when joey gets cold, it goes up to 15:eek:

the only standing pilot at my house is the water heater.

oven, dryer, furnace are electric spark ignition.

i don't see where the #'s can come down that much:confused:

rick.

[theoak]

And your usage habits havent changed one bit.
.:rolleyes:

If anything they have increased I would think ...

I had a baby last July. So I have one more kid that I have to bath. Granted, it is not like we bath him 10 times a day or anything, but it is an increase. There is the added laundry too that he would bring.

My wife is also 38 weeks pregnant. At this late in her pregnancy she has always taken baths like crazy. They help relax her with the contractions. Last year at this time she would have had the baby already and would be showering normally.

I wish I could say that the whole family has not showered for a month. I wish I could say that last year I used city water to water my lawn instead of irrigation.

This simply is not the case ...

Thinking about this a little more ...

Last year for September (I would have used no heat) I used 16 therms and for October I used 24. Assuming all things equal, I could conclude that 8 therms were used for heat in October.

With all things not being equal, with the colder weather, my standby losses would have gone up. Also, the October bill is a full month of school where my kids shower every school day. During the summer they don't. For this year, the September bill had about a third of it where there was no school. Last year school started a week later so about half of the September bill had no school. Would all of this equal 8 therms difference between September and October for last year ... I am thinking no ... but maybe as much as half, especially with the school factor.

I am projected to use 12 therms this month for water. Lets say I use 4 therms worth of heat, that would put me at 16 therms total. That gives me a savings of around the 35% range. If I use 8 therms of heat I am in the 15% to 20% savings range. If I use no heat, 40% to 50% range.

Edit:

Wife is scheduled to be induced Oct 1 (wish us luck). In laws are scheduled to come at the same time ( wish us more luck ;) ). The wife is probably going to want the house nice and warm for baby. Depending on the weather, we will probably be kicking on the heat. In laws are obviously going to be taking showers. Realistically, I am expecting around a 25% savings ...

[cpw]

Wife is scheduled to be induced Oct 1 (wish us luck). In laws are scheduled to come at the same time ( wish us more luck ;) ). The wife is probably going to want the house nice and warm for baby. Depending on the weather, we will probably be kicking on the heat. In laws are obviously going to be taking showers. Realistically, I am expecting around a 25% savings ...

How much does a therm cost?

Good luck with the induction.

[theoak]

How much does a therm cost?

Good luck with the induction.

My current rate is $0.97735 per therm. On October 1 it goes up to around $1.19 per therm.

Thanks ...

[cpw]

My current rate is $0.97735 per therm. On October 1 it goes up to around $1.19 per therm.

Thanks ...

I wouldn't mind a heating bill of $50 bucks for the summer. I used over $500 on oil from April->September (153 gallons @ 3.29; that would work out to about 30k gallons if 100% of the burned oil turned into HW; since I use something like 25k gallons of water every 3 months).

[theoak]

I wouldn't mind a heating bill of $50 bucks for the summer. I used over $500 on oil from April->September (153 gallons @ 3.29; that would work out to about 30k gallons if 100% of the burned oil turned into HW; since I use something like 25k gallons of water every 3 months).

Here is my therm usage for the 2007/2008. We actually had a cold spring compared to last year ...

Date Billed/Days in Billing cycle/Therms billed

09/16/08 29 12
08/15/08 32 13
07/16/08 30 19
06/16/08 30 27
05/15/08 32 67
04/15/08 29 82
03/17/08 29 88
02/15/08 32 135
01/16/08 30 122
12/17/07 30 97
11/15/07 33 59
10/15/07 28 24
09/17/07 33 16
08/15/07 29 13
07/17/07 30 15
06/15/07 33 19
05/15/07 29 41
04/16/07 30 38
03/15/07 28 76
02/15/07 32 129
01/16/07 30 119

You do get more kick per unit of oil versus natural gas, but the price takes away that advantage though ... :(

[theoak]

Called my water company and got my water consumption usage for the past year or so. As you can see there was no change between the bill I just got and the same time last year. The past few bills prior compared to last year however, they have gone up. I was only on a tankless really for the last bill however.

1970 Sep 08
1790 Jul
1690 May
1530 Mar
1610 Jan
1600 Nov 07
1970 Sep
1720 Jul
1410 May

Edit:

So I can pretty safely conclude that due to the fact that my water usage this year and this time last year were the same, the 25% reduction in my natural gas bill for last month (when compared to the same time last year), was completely due to the tankless.