The $49 Drain Clean

[spodelee]

Ok, Jack - I would like to learn all about loss-leader drain cleaning specials. How do you work them so they make money without providing the service under false pretenses?

[PLUMBER RICK]

Ok, Jack - I would like to learn all about loss-leader drain cleaning specials. How do you work them so they make money without providing the service under false pretenses?

lee, after actually meeting with leonard a couple of weeks ago. he's actually a very nice and knowledgeable person;)

from how i understood it. he goes there as a 2 man crew. i will do the work, while the other one will check the job. both from inside and underneath. he'll take a very nice digital camera and document the problems he finds.

the rest is letting the customer see the problem.

if you look at his pricing sch. you'll see that slab jobs are more expensive. the reason i feel is that there is not going to be any chance that there is an add on job under the house. typically slabs have better clean out access. so in a plumbing standpoint, you would think that it's less involved than not having a c/o. but the fact is, he's there to land a bigger job.

leonard will tell you that he loses money on every drain cleaning job, but it's his foot in the door for a possible larger pay day. either now or in the future.

leonard, correct me if that's wrong:D

rick.

[DuckButter]

Interesting...chaulk up the loss on simple drain jobs as advertising.

[gear junkie]

If I took my car to get the tires rotated and I see the mechanic pop the hood and come back and tell me something in my engine is broke, I personally would not be happy. I wanted my tires rotated and that's it, don't look under the hood, just rotate the tires. I look at a 49 drain cleaning the same way.

[cpw]

If I took my car to get the tires rotated and I see the mechanic pop the hood and come back and tell me something in my engine is broke, I personally would not be happy. I wanted my tires rotated and that's it, don't look under the hood, just rotate the tires. I look at a 49 drain cleaning the same way.
At some places they automatically check tires, brakes, fluids etc. They don't charge you anything for it, but hope to make a sale. Since you aren't obligated to go with him; I don't see anything wrong with it. If it is something serious and expensive, you can get his estimate and then two others.

[BHD]

(First I did not look at your pictures).

I think the reason is there are so many scam artist in this world trying to "up grade" or even sell "bogus" services that a customer does not need or want even, (and many times made to think it is a emergency to fix right now).

Just one Example: years ago I pulled into a filling station, (this was not to far from the days of "full service"), but any way the owner was setting out in front in a rocking chair and as I was filling up hollered at me and said come on over, so when I went into pay I did stop and talk to the man, and he informed me on my 69 Ford Galaxy he could tell by the way the car came up the drive way, I needed new shocks and should get done there at the station before I left and had an accident, now since the shocks were less than 6 months old, and even then I was fair mechanic on my own, I declined, to have him work on my car.

So for some one to try to sell me a upgrade or more service than I requested usaly comes with a great deal of suspicion on if it is even a real problem. or jsut some way to get in my pocket book.

And to continue the mechanical analogy, if some says I need new "muffler bearings" or some other thing, I am going to go to some place I "trust" at least in some form, for some information and at a min a conformation of possibly work that needs to be done, and to find out what a 'muffler bearing" is at lest before I say yes to a repair or replacement.

an other example of this in action,
Just a few days ago I got a call from a person and he had some repair people there working on his home Air Conditioner, and they suggested a course of action to fix the problem, and the person called me just for the conformation of the procedure, and if there was any other way to proceed on the fix. He jsut want to have some information on the actions that were suggested, if they were the way to go. (in this instance I said it sounds like it is the only course of action to take and they have good people and I trust there service),

[DUNBAR]

I get my turn signal oil and my gas pedal fluid checked regularly. :blush:

[ToUtahNow]

If I took my car to get the tires rotated and I see the mechanic pop the hood and come back and tell me something in my engine is broke, I personally would not be happy. I wanted my tires rotated and that's it, don't look under the hood, just rotate the tires. I look at a 49 drain cleaning the same way.

Consider you are on a job to clear a kitchen sink stoppage and you look in the crawl space to see which way the pipe is running. If you see a water line flooding the crawl space do you "up sell" fixing the problem?

Mark

[gear junkie]

Consider you are on a job to clear a kitchen sink stoppage and you look in the crawl space to see which way the pipe is running. If you see a water line flooding the crawl space do you "up sell" fixing the problem?

Mark
No up sell, actually a down sale. I would charge full price for the waterline fix and then the stoppage would be an add on-about 50 less than full price since I'm already there. JL(this is what I'll call you since I don't know your real name) I think the 2 issues I have with your technique is that you charge extremely low prices to get your foot in the door, then when you find a problem, you have to give a higher price to justify your 49 drain cleaning.

2nd issue and this is my biggest point that brings a huge doubt in my head; a company in business for 30+years that needs 1/3 of it's business to come from advertising is doing something wrong. The company I used to work for had a business model almost the same as yours but they were a commision based company and they also did hvac. 50k a month in advertising, net 4+ mil a year, 10 techs and they did this by ripping off the customer. They had the sweetest talk that could sell ice to a eskimo, the supervisor was actually a used car salesman. I know it sounds like my beef is with them and not you but when I see big similarities, red flags start getting raised.

You mention the blown wax ring seal and it's a valid point, I'll grant you that. Since it's such a serious issue, do you do a final air inspection for homes on slabs or do you just replace every wax ring just to be safe?

Good points on the store analogy but most stores don't rely on the panic sales. I'm not saying you do this but many shop in my local area do, they show a customer a potential problem and the customer freaks out and is willing to pay whatever it costs to get fixed. You're also the only plumber in the house right now and very few people would ask you to leave and come back after they shopped for a better price.

[ToUtahNow]

No up sell, actually a down sale. I would charge full price for the waterline fix and then the stoppage would be an add on-about 50 less than full price since I'm already there. JL(this is what I'll call you since I don't know your real name) I think the 2 issues I have with your technique is that you charge extremely low prices to get your foot in the door, then when you find a problem, you have to give a higher price to justify your 49 drain cleaning.

2nd issue and this is my biggest point that brings a huge doubt in my head; a company in business for 30+years that needs 1/3 of it's business to come from advertising is doing something wrong. The company I used to work for had a business model almost the same as yours but they were a commision based company and they also did hvac. 50k a month in advertising, net 4+ mil a year, 10 techs and they did this by ripping off the customer. They had the sweetest talk that could sell ice to a eskimo, the supervisor was actually a used car salesman. I know it sounds like my beef is with them and not you but when I see big similarities, red flags start getting raised.

You mention the blown wax ring seal and it's a valid point, I'll grant you that. Since it's such a serious issue, do you do a final air inspection for homes on slabs or do you just replace every wax ring just to be safe?

Good points on the store analogy but most stores don't rely on the panic sales. I'm not saying you do this but many shop in my local area do, they show a customer a potential problem and the customer freaks out and is willing to pay whatever it costs to get fixed. You're also the only plumber in the house right now and very few people would ask you to leave and come back after they shopped for a better price.


LOL-No please I insist you use my God given name of Mark as I feel I know you so well.

Mark

[ToUtahNow]

Ben,

The concept is great whether you like his prices or not. What does it take to get you to the customers house the first time? Once you are there are you going to just do the job and leave or are you going to bring to the attention of the owner additional work which needs to be done. Remember you set the price based on your needs not someone else's. Your are not taking advantage of the owner simply by helping them make an informed decision.

Mark

[BHD]

I am not saying that all "up sales" are scams, but there are enough of them out of the blue that are to make a person sceptical.

I do think there is a difference from water pooling in the craw space to pointing out a discolored pipe tho,

And if your referring to me by this statement, And please stop insulting me.
I did not insult you, I told you why I do not like, or am leery of people who use a loss leader, or try to sell upgrades of product or service. I gave a true personal example,

and I did not say you are dishonest. the only time I did give some credence to that was when you attempted to miss lead people by saying the pictures were a year off, and trying to create some thing that was not accurate, and even then I did not say you were dishonest, I pointed out some discrepancy in your own statements and the evidence you presented. and that may have jsut been a laps in judgment with out intent to deceive.

You may be as true and as honest as the day is long, and if that is the case more power to you, I hope that is the case, and if you have a clear conscious of how and what you do that is great, at times I am sure you are doing some home owner a favor on discovering some faulty item that needs attention.
but for some reason I think I would rather have Rick, Utah, gear junkie, all clear, or many of the others on this board, come and look at my stoppage and clear it and if one of them sees some thing that needs attention I think I would have a little more faith in them, than some one I found from a flyer on my doorstep and offering a $49 special,

If your willing to do some thing for 1/4 or a less of the going rates there got to Be a catch some where.

It is jsut the way I see things,

[Service Guy]

I wouldn't do the same marketing technique ($49 drain to get foot in the door) as Leonard. However, I respect his decision. The bottom-line is as service plumbers one of our biggest dilemmas is getting the phone to ring and get our foot in the door of our customers house, its a competitive market like most markets.

If advertising cut-rate drain-cleaning gets his foot in the door, then good for him that is his way of marketing. My way is somewhat different, but that doesn't means either way is "better".

Personally, I see it as somewhat deceptive to advertise prices at a loss, but its totally legal and if customers don't want to do any extra work, that is up to them. In a way, he is extremely generous to do drain-cleaning so cheap for people.

Thank You Leonard for presenting your technique, I find it very interesting. Marketing is quite complex and this is a unique method I hadn't really thought of before.

[ToUtahNow]

I think what you need to look at is what are you spending to get a customer to call you? Some pay $12 a call for a referral service and some pay $1,000 per month for a Yellow Page Ad some may even do both. When you pay $1,000 per month to get 20 jobs a month you are paying $50 per job to the Yellow Pages. If you get 40 jobs a month you are paying $25 per job. Now that you finally get in the home the hard work is done. You now have an opportunity to advise the owner if there are any additional issues which need to be addressed. I am not saying invent work or overcharge for real work I am saying take advantage of a face to face with the customer and let them know what they need.

Mark

[JCsPlumbing]

I see no "guru" business tactics here any different from Bestline Plumbings first posts. I'm no genius, but this is what I figured out from the beginning looking over their pricelist.

Bestline Plumbing has a target demographic of older people in older houses. They advertise the cheapest draincleaning to get in those houses because:

1)Draincleaning is most common in older homes thus giving them the highest possible contact ratio.

2)On older homes there is more likely to be multiple things wrong. We've all seen this. Then they can point out and promote the "value" of repairing for $$$$.

I've thought of this model myself before I ever heard of his company and chose not to do it because it felt that it can easily cross an ethical line at times. That's fine if they choose to live that way. I choose to live my way. It all comes down to who you want to be in this world.

J.C.

[Masterplumb]

I have not made one comment on Bestline since the first post (I think).

I think he has a great business model, I think it's ingenious. As long as the model remains ethical I think it really is a great moneymaker.

Lets face it we all have passed by the water heater (here they are in the basement) and glanced at the manufacturing date and have told Mrs. so and so that your water heater is 15 years old and blah, blah, blah. That is being not only a responsible plumber but being a good business man.

There is also another side to this. Lets say you go to Mrs. Smith's house for a 2nd floor lavatory stoppage, you really have no business being in the basement unless you have the owners permission to "check" the plumbing down there.

It almost reminds me of those chimney companies that offer to clean my chimney for 19.99. I guarantee that they tell every customer that they NEED their chimney lined.

[gear junkie]

If Mark and Masterplumb both say it's a good idea, I'll accept it based on the respect for those two. I'm still leery of the idea but maybe I'll see the light(if there is one) in the coming years when I've had their experience. I do agree with BHD that the deception of the pictures did put JL in a bad light in my eyes.

[spodelee]

Jack,

Do you send two people for the drain clean as per Rick's suggestion that you do? (One for cleaning and the other for investigation.

Do you ask permission to perform the investigation?

During the investigation, do you check every sink, shower, drain, faucet, etc... Or do you limit the investigation to the area of the home that you are working in?

By performing the investigation yourself, you can demomstrate common sense and integrity in the investigation. What happens when an investigation is delegated to a service plumber or sales person? Are you able to effectively control the investigations from afar? Or, do you find yourself at risk when an investigation is delegated?

[cpw]

Do you ask permission to perform the investigation?

During the investigation, do you check every sink, shower, drain, faucet, etc... Or do you limit the investigation to the area of the home that you are working in?
I'm sure if he didn't ask permission he would get kicked out of the house. I'm not gonna have a person I don't know running around my house without my supervision.

[Service Guy]

When we give an estimate for a specific service like installing copper pipes, we inspect everything and tell the customer that we are going to be like no other plumber. We tell the customer that we are not going to give an estimate just for what they requested because their request may result in future contractual problems. We tell the customer that we are going to inspect everything in their home and give them an estimate for what we think they need, even if our price is double all their estimates, at least they won't be slapped with add-ons after the job is started. This is one of the reasons we get twice as much money as most plumbers. We are actually MORE HONEST AND MORE UP FRONT!


Great idea, I used to do that but have gotten away from it. Recently I realized I need to go back to doing things this way, it results in better sales and higher-quality work for the customer.

Thanks for the reminder.

[Masterplumb]

If Mark and Masterplumb both say it's a good idea, I'll accept it based on the respect for those two. I'm still leery of the idea but maybe I'll see the light(if there is one) in the coming years when I've had their experience. I do agree with BHD that the deception of the pictures did put JL in a bad light in my eyes.

Gear, I appreciate the faith in me :). I don't know Bestline or whatever his name is, I am not vouching for him as I dont know him and honestly I dont really care if he is a good businessman or not. I think if his business model is carried out legitimately it is a good plan thats all.

I dont understand or care to understand why he has to spend so much in advertising being in business for so long making so much money. I think its all fluff, as are a few members on this board (you know who you are).

Anyhow, I think you read me wrong as I dont think you are far off on reading this guy. I know others here have met with him and again I don't care that they did and think he's legit.

What is his interest in making you, me or anyone else money? Who really cares how much money his company makes. What makes him think that he makes more then me, you or anyone else? I can tell you that I have zero interest in telling people here my gross sales and income for last year or the year before that.

Chris

[DuckButter]

Consider you are on a job to clear a kitchen sink stoppage and you look in the crawl space to see which way the pipe is running. If you see a water line flooding the crawl space do you "up sell" fixing the problem?

Mark

You're right, and Jack has a very good point.
Ben worked for a company that scammed folks, he was pushed to sell unecessary work regardless whether they needed it or not.
He needs to know that not all selling is wrong.
I personally have to admit I am very lacking here as well.
I can even recall seeing potentially defective lines or drainage thats a clog waiting to happen and not said anything for fear of sounding like I was "selling" something.
Quite frankly, I was wrong, it's my job description...to protect the health and sanitation of the public.

GREAT thread Jack.

[Masterplumb]

You're right, and Jack has a very good point.
Ben worked for a company that scammed folks, he was pushed to sell unecessary work regardless whether they needed it or not.
He needs to know that not all selling is wrong.
I personally have to admit I am very lacking here as well.
I can even recall seeing potentially defective lines or drainage thats a clog waiting to happen and not said anything for fear of sounding like I was "selling" something.
Quite frankly, I was wrong, it's my job description...to protect the health and sanitation of the public.

GREAT thread Jack.

Just take the owner to the problem and let them see it with their own eyes. It's all the selling you need to do in that situation.

[PLUMBER RICK]

please remember that it was a post on this forum that brought leonard to us. he was just curious why so many web site hits were coming from this forum.

i was also one who doubted his tactics and questioned his pricing. i was also 1 of 2 that actually live close enough to spend a coulple of hours with him at his office.

am i convinced this is the proper way to grow your business.

not for me. but i'm not looking to grow or work for complete strangers.

i do know that leonard is for real and his operation is real.

there will be some that benefit and some that can care less.

i actually applaud his willingness to help others on this forum.

i think that's why most of us are here. to teach and to learn. plus look at all the typing and computer skills we have gained from posting;)

rick.

[Masterplumb]

!

[JCsPlumbing]

Marianne. :D

J.c.

[Masterplumb]

Marianne. :D

J.c.

Go get cabe tv or something will ya, you cheap b@stard

[mrs. westcoast]

Sorry, can't find the original post.

We get our flyers printed on glossy paper, in full color, printed on both sides, at Licher Direct Mail in Pasadena, Ca. Ask for Lupa and tell her the cheaper and older Leonard sent you. Lupa Chinese and I hear she is hot.

Jack


Thanks Leonard

[mrs. westcoast]

Thanks Leonard
ps- i don't think her hotness will help me since I'm a woman too:confused:
Thanks Leonard
ps- i don't think her hotness will help me since I'm a woman too

[DuckButter]

Go get cabe tv or something will ya, you cheap b@stard
:rotflmao:

[Devine Plumbing]

You're right, and Jack has a very good point.
Ben worked for a company that scammed folks, he was pushed to sell unecessary work regardless whether they needed it or not.
He needs to know that not all selling is wrong.
I personally have to admit I am very lacking here as well.
I can even recall seeing potentially defective lines or drainage thats a clog waiting to happen and not said anything for fear of sounding like I was "selling" something.
Quite frankly, I was wrong, it's my job description...to protect the health and sanitation of the public.

GREAT thread Jack.


I feel as if it is my responsibility to sell them something if it is needed. If I see a corroded fitting and do not mention it, how am I going to feel when weeks later I get a call that it broke and flooded their house while they where on vacation causing thousands of dollars of damage.

[gear junkie]

You're right, and Jack has a very good point.
Ben worked for a company that scammed folks, he was pushed to sell unecessary work regardless whether they needed it or not.
He needs to know that not all selling is wrong.
I personally have to admit I am very lacking here as well.
I can even recall seeing potentially defective lines or drainage thats a clog waiting to happen and not said anything for fear of sounding like I was "selling" something.
Quite frankly, I was wrong, it's my job description...to protect the health and sanitation of the public.

GREAT thread Jack.
Short story, replaced a shower mixing valve when I worked at A1. While there I noticed the fill tube for the toilet was broke off and the customer had put a piece of sheetmetal over it so it didn't spray straight up. I offer to rebuild this toilet and he doesn't want it done, I think I offered to ebuild it for 60, that's how much I wanted to rebuild his toilet. Doesn't want it and I told his daughter about so she could remember to get this fixed.

Now this couple was in their late 80's, the husband was blind and the wife was deaf and they lived in a 1920's era house that was beutiful, great shape. Extremely wonderful couple. 2 years later a friend asks me to come over to his girlfriend's house and look at a leaking toilet that caused some flood damage. I get there and it's the same house. Turned out my friend was dating his grandaughter. Someone had moved the precariously placed piece of sheetmetal and the water shot straight up and down the side of the tank. This was overnight and it ruined the entire 1st floor ceiling. The wife had just died and the husband looked like he was waiting to go with her, you could see it in his eyes. Now this happens which was totally preventable.

Point of my depressing story is that I don't believe selling is criminal. But I'm gun shy because I've seen to many people in my area get taken advantage of. But if I do see a problem, it is addressed. Another thing, a high bbb rating holds no water with me. The company I worked for has been in business since 87 and they only had 2 complaints when it should've been in the hundreds.

[BHD]

I am in no way opposed to point out some thing to some one that I believe needs attention and is a serious potential problem, I have done it many a time, but I did not do some thing jsut to get in the door to do that and in many of the instances the things I pointed out were not in my interest to repair any way. (and I usaly gave them names of some one who specialize in that type of repair).

I guess I aways felt I had more problems with these words,

"while you are here, would you ...".

you squeeze them in for a small job and they want to make a day out of your stay fixing ever thing under the sun, Of which you brought no supplies for or specialty tools for.

[Service Guy]

I am in no way opposed to point out some thing to some one that I believe needs attention and is a serious potential problem, I have done it many a time, but I did not do some thing jsut to get in the door to do that and in many of the instances the things I pointed out were not in my interest to repair any way. (and I usaly gave them names of some one who specialize in that type of repair).

I guess I aways felt I had more problems with these words,

"while you are here, would you ...".

you squeeze them in for a small job and they want to make a day out of your stay fixing ever thing under the sun, Of which you brought no supplies for or specialty tools for.

This is opposite of the way I look at it....
I guess I aways felt I LOVED these words,

"while you are here, would you ...".

I schedule them for service and they want to make a day out of my stay fixing ever thing under the sun, Of which I always bring all the supplies and specialty tools I need on my service truck. :) This is great, because I will make maximum profit working all day and cut out all the driving and wasted fuel that comes from doing too many service calls/day.

[ToUtahNow]

We had a minimum one hour charge. Sometimes a job takes 10-minutes. I always felt I was cheating the customer unless I offered to look at other problems.

Mark

[DuckButter]

I feel as if it is my responsibility to sell them something if it is needed. If I see a corroded fitting and do not mention it, how am I going to feel when weeks later I get a call that it broke and flooded their house while they where on vacation causing thousands of dollars of damage.

Oh yes, but first and foremost it is your responsibility to inform them you're not licensed, effectively uninsured and truly allow them to make an educated decision.

[DuckButter]

Short story, replaced a shower mixing valve when I worked at A1. While there I noticed the fill tube for the toilet was broke off and the customer had put a piece of sheetmetal over it so it didn't spray straight up. I offer to rebuild this toilet and he doesn't want it done, I think I offered to ebuild it for 60, that's how much I wanted to rebuild his toilet. Doesn't want it and I told his daughter about so she could remember to get this fixed.

Now this couple was in their late 80's, the husband was blind and the wife was deaf and they lived in a 1920's era house that was beutiful, great shape. Extremely wonderful couple. 2 years later a friend asks me to come over to his girlfriend's house and look at a leaking toilet that caused some flood damage. I get there and it's the same house. Turned out my friend was dating his grandaughter. Someone had moved the precariously placed piece of sheetmetal and the water shot straight up and down the side of the tank. This was overnight and it ruined the entire 1st floor ceiling. The wife had just died and the husband looked like he was waiting to go with her, you could see it in his eyes. Now this happens which was totally preventable.

Point of my depressing story is that I don't believe selling is criminal. But I'm gun shy because I've seen to many people in my area get taken advantage of. But if I do see a problem, it is addressed. Another thing, a high bbb rating holds no water with me. The company I worked for has been in business since 87 and they only had 2 complaints when it should've been in the hundreds.

I agree 100%...you know me well enough to know I have a conscience.
I do think both you and I need to keep an open mind regarding one thing...too much of any extreme is a bad thing.

I have a very old couple that call me exclusively for their plumbing...the reason is the very first time I went there I did a toilet replacement to a commfort height for the obvious reason.
Their daughter was there...I pulled her off to the side and gave a list of a few things I could blatently see were very wrong...duct tape on a lav drain, both toilet flanges were rotting & visibly leaking in the basement as well as a few others.
She confided that her father was an avid DIY'er throughout his life and stubborn about having any of it done right.

Got a call from her a few months later...she decided to petition the other siblings to chip in and get it all fixed.
She called me because I didn't dwell on it, I explained that most of it was going to leak and some already was...she appreciated the fact that I wasn't persistent and I took the time to walk her through it all.

I think THAT is an example of what Jack is talking aboiut...I also have to admit I don't do this NEARLY as often as I should.

Whether I like iot or not, Jack is prodding me back to a frame of mind that I have somehow let go astray...It's not wrong to point out defects in the plumbing, in fact it's wrong not to.

It's good business...it only becomes wrong when you cross a line and take advantage of someone who may not know better by fabricating defects or bilking them on charges.

[DuckButter]

If I took my car to get the tires rotated and I see the mechanic pop the hood and come back and tell me something in my engine is broke, I personally would not be happy. I wanted my tires rotated and that's it, don't look under the hood, just rotate the tires. I look at a 49 drain cleaning the same way.

Another way to look at it...
What if you drove off and a tie rod breaks because the ball joint was gone...you get in a serious accident.
The mechanic that tows you see's the ball joint and tells you it should have been obvious as soon as the car was up on jacks.
You ask the mechanic that rotated your tires, he says he was afraid you'd have thought he was trying to sell you something...

[cpw]

Another way to look at it...
What if you drove off and a tie rod breaks because the ball joint was gone...you get in a serious accident.
The mechanic that tows you see's the ball joint and tells you it should have been obvious as soon as the car was up on jacks.
You ask the mechanic that rotated your tires, he says he was afraid you'd have thought he was trying to sell you something...
That is one of the reasons that I like mechanics who will take into the shop and underneath your car and point at the broken pieces, and say that needs to be fixed.

[gear junkie]

Maybe it's because I work on my own vehicles that I don't want anyone to look at them. I'll come up with a different analogy, give me some time.

[Devine Plumbing]

I can see both points of view. I figure it boils down to whether a company is a sales organization or a service organization. The main issue in a sales organization is to get your product in front of customers so they can see the benefits. This is why you always see radio stations at car dealerships giving away hot dogs, balloons, t-shirts, etc. I used to work selling vacuum cleaners at one time. We had to use a free carpet shampoo to get our product in front of the customers. However, you would be suprised at the number of people willing to pay over $1500 for a vacuum, when most sold for under $100. It is all about value building and percieved value. Most of my sales were on door-to-door canvasing team. This is down in the trenches, when you just suprised someone while they were watching "As the World Turns" and in less than an hour walked out with a check for about $1700. Even I have a couple tricks up my sleeve you may be willing to try Jack. Instead of just getting your guys to deliver flyers, get them to knock on the door, introduce themselves, and sign them up for a drawing of some sort. Possibly a free W/H replacement or whatever the case might be. Of course you now have their contact information so you can call them up later and excitedly tell them about the the free home inspection they have just won. You would be suprised at the amount of customers that will just invite your canvassing plumbers right in to look at something if they present themselves properly. To all of you other guys who just might need some extra work. Try just knocking some doors, introducing yourself, and leaving them with a magnet for their fridge. You would be suprised at the number of people who have no idea who to call when things go wrong, plus everyone has something they want an estimate on.

[BHD]

This is opposite of the way I look at it....
I guess I aways felt I LOVED these words,

"while you are here, would you ...".

I schedule them for service and they want to make a day out of my stay fixing ever thing under the sun, Of which I always bring all the supplies and specialty tools I need on my service truck. :) This is great, because I will make maximum profit working all day and cut out all the driving and wasted fuel that comes from doing too many service calls/day.

In your instance you do one trade, I work in general construction, for example I got a call a few days ago to figure out the clock and wiring on a sprinkler system, (not replace it but make it work), so I show up and get it figured out, and all working, and then they say would you mind putting on this screen door I brought home from the dump, (yes from the dump) so I take a look at it and since I had come to look at wires and possibly some pop up heads, I had not brought my big truck with saws or other tools as I was asked for a specific job, I have been called to fix a cabinet door and they then want me to replace a toilet flange or some other totally related item.
my truck is not big enough to carry tools for carpentry, plumbing, concrete, dry wall, cabinet building, floor repair, and other, all on the same day. and no I do not seek plumbing jobs, I will do repairs, or emergency fixes,

I remember one day years ago, I was in town working on some soffit and exterior trim, and this little girl comes running across the grass from about three house down the block hollering at me to come shut off the water, and you can see she is frantic, so I come a running and follow her in the house and her uncle is trying to do some repair to the tub or the enclosure and he drilled into the water pipe, and water is just shooting out all over the place, and he say shut off the water, as he is trying to deflect it into the tub, (I had never been in this house before, and I ask do you know where it is, and the answer is NO, I ask if there is a basement NO, is there a crawl space "I DO NOT KNOW", I ask the little gal is there any out side doors around the bottom of the house so out we go and there is a small crawl hole door, and luckily there was a light under the house and I spot the water shut off and it even turns, and get it shut off for the guy, I never did know who he was, my mother did know the little gal. and he thanked me and I went back to my trim. and it was jsut a few doors down from my mothers place. So small towns can be fun.
I guess I should have sold him on a pipe repair and shower enclosure, and new floors and walls for the bath room,

[DuckButter]

I can see both points of view. I figure it boils down to whether a company is a sales organization or a service organization. The main issue in a sales organization is to get your product in front of customers so they can see the benefits. This is why you always see radio stations at car dealerships giving away hot dogs, balloons, t-shirts, etc. I used to work selling vacuum cleaners at one time. We had to use a free carpet shampoo to get our product in front of the customers. However, you would be suprised at the number of people willing to pay over $1500 for a vacuum, when most sold for under $100. It is all about value building and percieved value. Most of my sales were on door-to-door canvasing team. This is down in the trenches, when you just suprised someone while they were watching "As the World Turns" and in less than an hour walked out with a check for about $1700. You may even try that Jack. Instead of just getting your guys to deliver flyers, get them to knock on the door, introduce themselves, and sign them up for a drawing of some sort. Possibly a free W/H installation or whatever the case might be. Of course you now have their contact information so you can call them up later and excitedly tell them about the the free home inspection they have just won. You would be suprised at the amount of customers that would invite them right in to look at something if they present themselves properly. To all of you other guys who just might need some extra work. Try just knocking some doors, introducing yourself, and leaving them with a magnet for their fridge. You would be suprised at the number of people who have no idea who to call when things go wrong.
The entire subtext of this discussion is honesty vs salesmanship.
Offering full and honest disclosure to our customers in hopes we get the work as pointed out.
The point here, you don't bother point out the fact that your not licensed or insured to your customers...why stop there?
Is there some self defined line you've decided it's ok to cross that the rest of us have to respect?
It's a debate on moral ethics vs profit...you might want to explore the moral ethics portion first.
Things like "Thou shalt not lie", or "Thou shalt not covet they neighbors goods" for a start.
Get those concepts down, then move on to the profit part.

[JCsPlumbing]

You never sell. Present the "value". :D

J.C.

[Devine Plumbing]

The entire subtext of this discussion is honesty vs salesmanship.
Offering full and honest disclosure to our customers in hopes we get the work as pointed out.
The point here, you don't bother point out the fact that your not licensed or insured to your customers...why stop there?
Is there some self defined line you've decided it's ok to cross that the rest of us have to respect?
It's a debate on moral ethics vs profit...you might want to explore the moral ethics portion first.
Things like "Thou shalt not lie", or "Thou shalt not covet they neighbors goods" for a start.
Get those concepts down, then move on to the profit part.

Here is where you have it wrong. There is a limited amount of "handyman" work I am allowed to do in my state. Most of my customers will take the time to ask if I am licensed or not. When I answer them they seem relieved. Ever wonder why that is? Maybe its because they know I will not want their credit card number before even coming out to the house. Or the fact that my prices will not be what they would consider to be exhauberant. So this is my fate. I do alright for myself, not because I charge more than the next guy, but because I do twice as much work as the next guy. While you have the luxury of working smarter, not harder. There is a market share for all of us. However, I have a feeling you're still pissed off. I promise not to come to CA, or wherever you're at. Unless Jack makes me an offer I can't refuse.

[ToUtahNow]

Here is where you have it wrong. There is a limited amount of "handyman" work I am allowed to do in my state. Most of my customers will take the time to ask if I am licensed or not. When I answer them they seem relieved. Ever wonder why that is? Maybe its because they know I will not want their credit card number before even coming out to the house. Or the fact that my prices will not be what they would consider to be exhauberant. So this is my fate. I do alright for myself, not because I charge more than the next guy, but because I do twice as much work as the next guy. While you have the luxury of working smarter, not harder. There is a market share for all of us. However, I have a feeling you're still pissed off. I promise not to come to CA, or wherever you're at. Unless Jack makes me an offer I can't refuse.

Sorry but I am not buying it. I feel bad for you but you advertise as a plumbing company not a handyman service. In addition you advertise work which is clearly illegal for you to do in your State.

Mark

[rick1643]

Here is where you have it wrong. There is a limited amount of "handyman" work I am allowed to do in my state. Most of my customers will take the time to ask if I am licensed or not. When I answer them they seem relieved. Ever wonder why that is? Maybe its because they know I will not want their credit card number before even coming out to the house. Or the fact that my prices will not be what they would consider to be exhauberant. So this is my fate. I do alright for myself, not because I charge more than the next guy, but because I do twice as much work as the next guy. While you have the luxury of working smarter, not harder. There is a market share for all of us. However, I have a feeling you're still pissed off. I promise not to come to CA, or wherever you're at. Unless Jack makes me an offer I can't refuse.

I thought you were just doing drain cleaning.......thats what you told us.

[Devine Plumbing]

Sorry but I am not buying it. I feel bad for you but you advertise as a plumbing company not a handyman service. In addition you advertise work which is clearly illegal for you to do in your State.

Mark

Yea, I should probably modify that website before I find myself in hot water. I think it is best if I just bid you all farewell. Goodnight and good luck in all of your future endeavors.

[DuckButter]

Here is where you have it wrong. There is a limited amount of "handyman" work I am allowed to do in my state. Most of my customers will take the time to ask if I am licensed or not. When I answer them they seem relieved. Ever wonder why that is? Maybe its because they know I will not want their credit card number before even coming out to the house. Or the fact that my prices will not be what they would consider to be exhauberant. So this is my fate. I do alright for myself, not because I charge more than the next guy, but because I do twice as much work as the next guy. While you have the luxury of working smarter, not harder. There is a market share for all of us. However, I have a feeling you're still pissed off. I promise not to come to CA, or wherever you're at. Unless Jack makes me an offer I can't refuse.

A new business model!
Scrap that silly license...people will trust you more!

Sorry Doug, you informed us how you were cleaning up with $600 water heaters in your area while the legitimate plumbers are cryin' poor.
Those were your words...you get to live by those words now.

It still baffles me why you feel like you should just be able to fit right in like nothings wrong.

I'm not at all pissed, for that matter I find you a likeable guy, but nothing at all detracts from the fact that you are the number one problem for guys like myself who struggle to get past the starting phase legitimately.

You can be as friendly, personable or amicable as you like...your still what you are.

No anger at all, I just look at it like I look at the criminals I pass on the wrong side of town, I don't hate them per say...but their not gonna be invited to my Thanksgiving dinner either.

You have options, you could get into something that doesn't require a license, drain cleaning (if legal in your state) for starters or small home projects (handyman).

You still talk about actively doing unlicensed plumbing as if it were just dandy.

It's not.

[DUNBAR]

Yea, I should probably modify that website before I find myself in hot water. I think it is best if I just bid you all farewell. Goodnight and good luck in all of your future endeavors.







Just out of curiousity,


Do you only pull snipets out of the bible that best represents what image you'd like to represent,


or do you just follow the example of how you conduct your business, to implement only rules that satisfy your intended obligations?


Your presence here, lack of friends that wanted association with you has been quite difficult to watch, wondering why you feel so compelled to be part of a group that you've made well known to everyone that you don't need to follow the rules.


Every time I see your sig line, I see deception. It's a gross misrepresentation of words better fitted for a man and his family that truly fulfills what those words imply.


I wish for you and yours that your experience here is remembered in bringing clarity to your lifestyle.

[ToUtahNow]

I wish you no ill will and I feel sorry for you as I know you have a new baby at home but you live in what has been described as the toughest State in the Union on unlicensed Contractors. I believe you know your stuff and if I had a magic wand I may even consider helping you but there is not magic to offer. When you side stepped the rules 15-years ago you sealed your fate in the inevitable.

Mark

[rick1643]

Devine, I told you a long time ago that unlicensed plumbing on this forum was frowned upon, you just wouldn't listen.

[spodelee]

I wish you no ill will and I feel sorry for you as I know you have a new baby at home but you live in what has been described as the toughest State in the Union on unlicensed Contractors. I believe you know your stuff and if I had a magic wand I may even consider helping you but there is not magic to offer. When you side stepped the rules 15-years ago you sealed your fate in the inevitable.

Mark

I wish you no ill will and I feel sorry for you as I know you have a new baby at home but you live in what has been described as the toughest State in the Union on unlicensed Contractors. I believe you know your stuff and if I had a magic wand I may even consider helping you but there is not magic to offer. When you side stepped the rules 15-years ago you sealed your fate in the inevitable.

Mark

Help? Help? What about me? I need help! I'm the guy that's going down in Ridgid history as the guy that started the thread that took down Devine!

The pressure is unbearable! How can I possibly live up to this kind of reputation? Day after day after day, oh the pressure. I think I need a therapist? :eek::eek::eek:

Devine - Rotary International adopted a four way test in 1932 that still stands today. I find it very useful in my personal and business life:

1. Is it the Truth?

2. Is it Fair to all concerned?

3. Will it build goodwill and better friendships?

4. Will it be beneficial to all concerned?"


Think about the answer to these questions in the deepest and broadest context possible as they relate to all aspects of your business (as well as your personal life if you so choose).

If you allow your conscience to guide you, you will find areas where you excel and others where you fail. It has been my experience that correction of those areas where I have failed ultimately resulted in a more fulfilling life.

More than anything else though, decades from now when life is drawing to a close, as a true craftsman you will want to be able to say with all honesty, "I did it right".