Copper getting thinner?

[gear junkie]

Changed out a 21 year old AO smith WH yesterday. I noticed the type L that I pulled out was visibly thicker than the type L that I reinstalled. Has anyone else seen this decline?

[stokefire7]

Yes

[JCsPlumbing]

Yes. Mentioned it to the supplier. They said they don't doubt it but what do you do. Glad you mentioned it....thought I might be losing it.

J.C.

[NHMaster3015]

Well, my hairs getting thinner. My wallets getting thinner. Why not copper? Hell it's on the way out anyway. Pexify the world, wrap it in plastic:D

[stokefire7]

I hate pex

[ToUtahNow]

Sorry but you guys are just imagining the difference in wall thickness. The letter designation is based on an ASTM Standard which lists the thickness. If the tubing is a different thickness it would have to use a letter other than those already assigned.

Mark

[HVAC HAWK]

so that means that K copper is now L
L copper is now M
M copper is now DWV
and DWV does not exist :eek:

[PLUMBER RICK]

copper tubing, i don't have an issue with.

it's the fittings that are short radius and thinner.

another good reason to go propress.

long radius 90's and type k fittings.:thumbup2:

rick.

[gear junkie]

I thought so too Mark so I weighed a 12" section of the new and old pipe. Old pipe 6 3/4 oz. New pipe 6 1/2 oz. I think we're going the way of the lumber industry.

[ToUtahNow]

I thought so too Mark so I weighed a 12" section of the new and old pipe. Old pipe 6 3/4 oz. New pipe 6 1/2 oz. I think we're going the way of the lumber industry.

If that is true then the piece of tubing you just installed is illegal. The ASTM Standard has a slight +/- but if every piece you install is too thin you have a bad batch of pipe which should have never made it to the supply house.

Mark

[gear junkie]

Just walked to the truck because you got me thinking. I got 5 sticks from ferguson's yesterday and I used 1 stick. I checked the 12" cutoff from the original compared to the other 4 remaining sticks and they all had the same thickness. It wouldn't suprise me if fergusons sold the cheap stuff now.

Question Mark. If a plumber installed type L pipe as per prints but it failed prematurely, and it was found not to actually be type L thickness, but was labeled as type L, who is at fault?

[ToUtahNow]

The manufacturer, the distributor, the supply house, the plumber and the builder could all be held responsible.

Mark

[JCsPlumbing]

Sorry but you guys are just imagining the difference in wall thickness. The letter designation is based on an ASTM Standard which lists the thickness. If the tubing is a different thickness it would have to use a letter other than those already assigned.

Mark

Not imagination. Who enforces the ASTM Standard in manufacturing facilities? Unless someone is calipering/weighing etc. right on the line and there independent of the company, you can trust that they will start to shave material.

J.C.

[PLUMBER RICK]

I thought so too Mark so I weighed a 12" section of the new and old pipe. Old pipe 6 3/4 oz. New pipe 6 1/2 oz. I think we're going the way of the lumber industry.

ben, when you said "old" did you mean unused old stock?

can you possibly weigh a full 20' / 10' section of old stock. and new stock.

make sure that you stand it vertical and support it to keep it from falling over. not to take the weight off.

do you have access to a certified scale like used in a market?

i guess we could always do like the fishing boats.

ben, i need you to make a balance beam and suspend both sections from an equally spaced balance beam. do you have a 18' a frame ladder:eek:

rick.

[JCsPlumbing]

M seems the same. Don't work with K enough to honestly recognize change. But L appears to be thinner/lighter.

J.C.

[DuckButter]

Sorry but you guys are just imagining the difference in wall thickness. The letter designation is based on an ASTM Standard which lists the thickness. If the tubing is a different thickness it would have to use a letter other than those already assigned.

Mark
You're 100% correct on thickness.
A thing to ponder, unless you know the answer...
In lieu of Bens weighing the two pieces, are there any regs on purity?
Maybe the older copper had something mixed into it that weighs more or the new copper has something lighter mixed in.

[DuckButter]

Not imagination. Who enforces the ASTM Standard in manufacturing facilities? Unless someone is calipering/weighing etc. right on the line and there independent of the company, you can trust that they will start to shave material.

J.C.

In reference to my post above, a softer alloy might appear thicker as it would mushroom more with a tubing cutter...

[cpw]

You're 100% correct on thickness.
A thing to ponder, unless you know the answer...
In lieu of Bens weighing the two pieces, are there any regs on purity?
Maybe the older copper had something mixed into it that weighs more or the new copper has something lighter mixed in.
Also for the weight, is it possible there is crud that built up on the inside of the pipe?

[MrsSeatDown]

You're 100% correct on thickness.
A thing to ponder, unless you know the answer...
In lieu of Bens weighing the two pieces, are there any regs on purity?
Maybe the older copper had something mixed into it that weighs more or the new copper has something lighter mixed in.

Isn't copper copper? White gold is man made and fluctuates, but does copper?:scratchhead: There is hard tempered and soft tempered copper, but isn't it the same material just manufactured differently?

[ToUtahNow]

You're 100% correct on thickness.
A thing to ponder, unless you know the answer...
In lieu of Bens weighing the two pieces, are there any regs on purity?
Maybe the older copper had something mixed into it that weighs more or the new copper has something lighter mixed in.

99.9%

Mark

[ToUtahNow]

Also for the weight, is it possible there is crud that built up on the inside of the pipe?

Patina.

Mark

[ToUtahNow]

Not imagination. Who enforces the ASTM Standard in manufacturing facilities? Unless someone is calipering/weighing etc. right on the line and there independent of the company, you can trust that they will start to shave material.

J.C.

There is both annual and random testing. If it were discovered a manufacturer was manufacturing a thinner tube then what is allowed there could be a recall of all of the copper tubing including that which has already been installed. The cost savings of the thinner copper piping would pale in comparison to the cost of the recall. In addition the manufacturer would lose their listing and no longer be allowed to manufacture copper tubing.

Mark

[DuckButter]

Also for the weight, is it possible there is crud that built up on the inside of the pipe?
Leave it to the computer programmer...I think you nailed it.

[DuckButter]

99.9%

Mark
I may be wrong, but when you over heat copper and it becomes annealed and something draws out of the metal, which is why it gets softer.
I'm guessing that whatever it is, it only accounts for 1/10th of a percent of the makeup by your figure.
Or ....I need to learn more about what actually happens in the annealing process.

[ToUtahNow]

I may be wrong, but when you over heat copper and it becomes annealed and something draws out of the metal, which is why it gets softer.
I'm guessing that whatever it is, it only accounts for 1/10th of a percent of the makeup by your figure.
Or ....I need to learn more about what actually happens in the annealing process.

Both hard and soft copper are 99.9% copper but the soft copper has been heated in ovens to 1300 degrees.

Mark

[gear junkie]

ben, when you said "old" did you mean unused old stock? No, I mean pipe that I removed because I relocated the WH. The water heater was 21 years old as it had "installed by UT3 Escajeda 2/10/81" in permanent marker. The old pipe I weighed came off the t/p valve so it had no crud or patina.

can you possibly weigh a full 20' / 10' section of old stock. and new stock.

make sure that you stand it vertical and support it to keep it from falling over. not to take the weight off. Tried like you said and the weight was still the same.

do you have access to a certified scale like used in a market? I probably do but that's a lot of extraness. I used my digital kitchen scale that measure in 1/8 of an oz.

i guess we could always do like the fishing boats.

ben, i need you to make a balance beam and suspend both sections from an equally spaced balance beam. do you have a 18' a frame ladder:eek:
Got a 17' little giant but once again it's alot of work. Feeling kinda lazy today.
rick. I've only seen mueller copper sold here nibco fittings) but this copper was reading which I never heard of before.

[NHMaster3015]

Copper's getting thinner? Wish the wife was:cool:

[gear junkie]

Copper's getting thinner? Wish the wife was:cool:
She's probably thinking the same about you.

[OkieBill]

I believe that the 99.9% purity number does not hold true anymore...

I can't back it up except from having handled the stuff for the last 15 years ( both refer and plumbing copper). The handling characteristics and the color has changed.

I believe that suppliers are alloying(sp?) the copper products now. I would love to know if ASTM pulls true random samples for testing...

10% alloy would be tuff to tell and would go a long way on a company balance sheet...

How many of your copper fittings have China or Korea stamped on them?

Just a thought...

[JCsPlumbing]

And copper tubing from Brazil & Mexico. Is ASTM going there? Don't know. Sent an email to them to get details. I'll post what they reply.

J.C.

[ToUtahNow]

And copper tubing from Brazil & Mexico. Is ASTM going there? Don't know. Sent an email to them to get details. I'll post what they reply.

J.C.

only copper which is certified to ASTM is approved for use in the United States under both UPC and IPC. For $80 you can buy the Standard online or you could go to the CDA and they pretty much cover everything.

Mark

[JCsPlumbing]

only copper which is certified to ASTM is approved for use in the United States under both UPC and IPC. For $80 you can buy the Standard online or you could go to the CDA and they pretty much cover everything.

Mark

Not interested. What is interesting to me is your insistence that people touching the product on the standards on which you keep quoting say it's thinner are wrong. So go ahead and quote me another standard, citation, place to buy it, procedure, approval process etc. All the pipe & fittings we get with the stamps are definitely up to the required quality. None of us ever get bad fittings or pipe. It's not possible. Because it's been approved by ASTM, ASSME, etc. That writing on them is what matters.

Not the product or the peoples opinion using it.

J.C.

[wbrooks]

If you have a micrometer you could put the question to rest. I just checked a bunch of my stuff and it is all thicker than minimum spec but within tolerance, made in Canada

Specs listed here (http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/astm-copper-tubes-d_779.html)

[NHMaster3015]

Well I did exactly that cause I got access to a machine shop right next door. Took some old 3/4 L that has been in my to use but never do pile and some brand new 3/4 L and miked them both. There is a slight difference, about 1 1/2 thousands but both are within astm tolerances.

[gear junkie]

How old is the old stuff?

[DuckButter]

Well I did exactly that cause I got access to a machine shop right next door. Took some old 3/4 L that has been in my to use but never do pile and some brand new 3/4 L and miked them both. There is a slight difference, about 1 1/2 thousands but both are within astm tolerances.
If I were you, I'd be camped next door.
Was a machinist for a few years back almost 20 years ago, loved the work, fascinated with metals, alloys and properties.
Got out cause the pay sucked.

[PLUMBER RICK]

i just was at our local hardware store and measured some new 3/4'' type l copper from mueller. the i.d. is .788 the od is .875 that's a difference of .087 so the wall thickness would be . 0435.

now all i have to do is go to my shop and dig up some old, new stock and compare.

i think the real test would be better between the brands of copper.

rick.

[NHMaster3015]

well I can't carbon date it but I'd bet at least 15 years old by the color of it.

The machine shop is the classroom right beside mine so it's very handy. I go in there a fiddle with stuff often.

[DuckButter]

i just was at our local hardware store and measured some new 3/4'' type l copper from mueller. the i.d. is .788 the od is .875 that's a difference of .087 so the wall thickness would be . 0435.

now all i have to do is go to my shop and dig up some old, new stock and compare.

i think the real test would be better between the brands of copper.

rick.

Without an inside & outside micrometer you won't get accurate readings.
Those tools account for the radius.
Though a vernier might give a reasonably close reading.

[woodenstickers]

Just a hammer ape over here, but is it possible that with the rising prices of the metals it was worth it to the manufacturers to get much more accurate in the production? Maybe before they would err noticeably on the side of caution, but now it's even more worth it to save the extra and be closer to tolerance.

Just a theory, the main hole I see in it being that manufacturers would probably have been doing it all along as even when metal was much cheaper it would still be significant cost cutting.




Eli

[PLUMBER RICK]

Without an inside & outside micrometer you won't get accurate readings.
Those tools account for the radius.
Though a vernier might give a reasonably close reading.

good call on the micrometer.

but i did use a vernier caliper.

my buddy has a precision machine shop and i'll see him tonight for dinner.

you can all thank his dad for the very first automatic bagel machine and the very first folding ping pong table. although he sold the rights to the folding ping pong table, he still was the original brains behind it's design.

my buddy is even more anal in his precision and when i measure it at his place, you can take my word it's within a 1/2 a thousandths.

typically us plumbers tend to work in 1/8ths. of an inch and that's our precision.

i'll post the numbers once i dig up some old and new stock. it also should be the same brand to show consistency over the years.

rick.

[NHMaster3015]

I actually took the pipes, cut them in half the long way, flattened them and used a starrett micrometer. Close enough for me.

I like the vinyl siding guys. A 1/4 is close enough.

[DuckButter]

I worked predominantly on military parts.
Worked to within 1/50,000,000th on a piece to a guidance system once.

At that tolerance, even the room temperature has to be strictly controlled.

A vernier will give a relatively close measurement, but they have a tendancy to have more yield depending on the amount of force exerted on them....the user.

The 1/2 thousandth is likely not quite that accurate....not with verniers at least.

Machining is one hell of an interesting trade, I don't even think we have tools quite so obscure, or expensive.

[NHMaster3015]

Our Tech Ctr is getting a new 5 Axis CNC machine next year. Can't wait to screw around on that for a while.

[DuckButter]

Our Tech Ctr is getting a new 5 Axis CNC machine next year. Can't wait to screw around on that for a while.

I used to program/operate a slant 12...combo machining & lathing NC machine with bar feed.
At the time it was worth about 1/2 mil.
Whatever ya do...DON'T smack anything with the turret while messing with that bad larry...:eek:

[Masterplumb]

I used to program/operate a slant 12...combo machining & lathing NC machine with bar feed.
At the time it was worth about 1/2 mil.
Whatever ya do...DON'T smack anything with the turret while messing with that bad larry...:eek:


What the hell are you guys talking about :running-dog:

[DuckButter]

What the hell are you guys talking about :running-dog:
Please tell me you have a slant 12 in your plumbing arsenal, no plumber in his right mind works without one.

[Masterplumb]

Please tell me you have a slant 12 in your plumbing arsenal, no plumber in his right mind works without one.


Of course I have one, I keep it right next to the left handed wrench, on top of the bucket of blue steam below the skyhooks to the right of the bubble fill for my levels.

But seriously I dont have a slant 12 especially that it costs 1/2 mil. I have laid miles of slant-fin though.

[Bob D.]

....are there any regs on purity?
.....

Yes, ASTM B-88 covers copper tube IIRC. Thought I had a copy here at home but didn't find it. Have it at work though.

[Bob D.]

I may be wrong, but when you over heat copper and it becomes annealed and something draws out of the metal, which is why it gets softer.
I'm guessing that whatever it is, it only accounts for 1/10th of a percent of the makeup by your figure.
Or ....I need to learn more about what actually happens in the annealing process.

Nothing is taken from the metal, only the molecules are rearranged such that they are not in such a rigid configuration which is what makes it "hard".

[DuckButter]

Nothing is taken from the metal, only the molecules are rearranged such that they are not in such a rigid configuration which is what makes it "hard".

Bob, I'd like to thank you for being the very first person to give me an answer that makes sense.

Kinda like the process for galvanizing, slowly cooled to allow partial crystalizing (molecular organizing)...makes perfect sense.

[DuckButter]

Of course I have one, I keep it right next to the left handed wrench, on top of the bucket of blue steam below the skyhooks to the right of the bubble fill for my levels.

But seriously I dont have a slant 12 especially that it costs 1/2 mil. I have laid miles of slant-fin though.

It's a commercial, computerized lathe, beast of a machine with a computer monitor to adjust offsets, modify programs and do manual or "midi" programming for small tasks.

Interesting stuff, everything is done in numbers down to ten thousands of an inch on X, Y and Z axis's.

Back when I was a machinist, I was so accustomed to thinking mathematically I could figure out the weeks grocery bill to the penny by adding each item as we picked them off the shelf at the supermarket.

[Plumbus]

Bob, I'd like to thank you for being the very first person to give me an answer that makes sense.

Kinda like the process for galvanizing, slowly cooled to allow partial crystalizing (molecular organizing)...makes perfect sense.

Duck
If you really want to bone up on all the challenges that copper faces, try CDA's site: http://www.copper.org/
Goggling corrosion/erosion will also lead to a wealth of info.

[DuckButter]

Duck
If you really want to bone up on all the challenges that copper faces, try CDA's site: http://www.copper.org/
Goggling corrosion/erosion will also lead to a wealth of info.

It's been in my favorites for years...very informative site.
What I question though in some circumstances, is the fact that is a mfg funded organization.
Some facts could be distorted in certain cases. (jaded over tobacco industry and pharmaceuticals here)