Other Forum gives me the Boot

[NHMaster3015]

So I’m over on that “Other Site” on this thread, which I have not included all of but here is the part that got my posting privileges taken away. Apparently all they want over there is for Us licensed professionals to give our advice and blessings to every hack homeowner in the world for free. Our years of experience, training and license mean nothing to these LEECHING TICKS as long as they can save a buck or two.


Bold font is the HO regular is me


hey guys, thanks again for some feedback. i knew the graphics would be a bit much after i posted it all. i really wanted to hire a pro for getting all this done, but unfortunately nobody cared to give me an honest price. ive been in the remodel biz for a while so i know what this work entails and i couldnt justify paying close to 10k for a job which a couple guys will knock out in 3 days and cost less than 2k for material and permits. so i pulled the permit and am working with the inspector now. this site is great and theres a few guys on here who pull a lot of weight for the rest of us. so thanks.
tyler



I know that when I need by-pass surgery the price seemed way out of line so I had my brother in law do it for me. Worked out ok I think.



haha i knew thatd get some flak. im not diminishing the trade whatsoever, but if ya aint got the money, and you can do it yourself and have some fun...then why not? some diy'ers are half assed...some are perfectionists...never assume the capabilities of others. but your right, id never have my brother give me surgery. good point, but this is a little different than that.


And at this point it’s the old boot er rooo for the man with the license

:packed: And down the road I went "George Thourogood"

[Masterplumb]

So I’m over on that “Other Site” on this thread, which I have not included all of but here is the part that got my posting privileges taken away. Apparently all they want over there is for Us licensed professionals to give our advice and blessings to every hack homeowner in the world for free. Our years of experience, training and license mean nothing to these LEECHING TICKS as long as they can save a buck or two.


Bold font is the HO regular is me


hey guys, thanks again for some feedback. i knew the graphics would be a bit much after i posted it all. i really wanted to hire a pro for getting all this done, but unfortunately nobody cared to give me an honest price. ive been in the remodel biz for a while so i know what this work entails and i couldnt justify paying close to 10k for a job which a couple guys will knock out in 3 days and cost less than 2k for material and permits. so i pulled the permit and am working with the inspector now. this site is great and theres a few guys on here who pull a lot of weight for the rest of us. so thanks.
tyler



I know that when I need by-pass surgery the price seemed way out of line so I had my brother in law do it for me. Worked out ok I think.



haha i knew thatd get some flak. im not diminishing the trade whatsoever, but if ya aint got the money, and you can do it yourself and have some fun...then why not? some diy'ers are half assed...some are perfectionists...never assume the capabilities of others. but your right, id never have my brother give me surgery. good point, but this is a little different than that.


And at this point it’s the old boot er rooo for the man with the license

:packed: And down the road I went "George Thourogood"

Hey NHM, Ive been booted from a site or two. They said it had something to do with being too opinionated :ok:

[plumberscrack]

LOL you got booted for that comment?...sheesh

[Service Guy]

but unfortunately nobody cared to give me an honest price.

I hate that. What exactly is the definiton of an 'honest price'?:rolleyes: Apparently its a price so low that nobody in town could meet his standards, so he uses that as justification to DIY. I am just glad that ONLY licensed plumbers can pull plumbing permits, licensed HVAC can pull HVAC permits, etc, etc. in NC.

[NHMaster3015]

I don't know. It just strikes me as kinda funny that that forum depends on real plumbers to make the whole thing work but if we aren't willing to kiss the home owners *** we get the boot. This whole diy crap has gotten way way out of hand. It's getting to the point that having a license is a joke. What's the point. so I have to play by the rules and jump through hoops but any hack home owner can do whatever he damn well pleases? I have news for them. Even though you hold the mortgage it doesn't mean ye have the right to hack up the mechanicals. When you do hack work and bury it in the walls or ceilings and then sell the house in a few years who inherits your crap work? The new owner, that's who. Plumbers Protect the Health of the Nation. Proper plumbing has all but eliminated the spread of many diseases and yet Joe Home owner can ignore all that and Hack hack away.

[spodelee]

At first I disagreed with Josh and his relatively high tolerance level in this forum, but after a while you learn the value in free speech. Sometimes it isn't fun, but it pays to "really" see another person's viewpoint. :bow-down:

I don't know how a guy works more than one forum anyway, it's all I can do to stay up with this one!

[woodenstickers]

Man, that was mild. Plumbdog:cool:, RIP, would have turned that guy into a stain. Good for you for saying what you believe. And it gives me the opportunity to agree with you too. Pretty enjoyable!!:D


Eli

[Woussko]

NHMaster3015

Don't let it get to you. You don't want or need to be on there.

[gear junkie]

It's their loss. I left that forum myself when I posted a thread asking about some of the experience of some of the senior members as they were giving out bad advice. A couple guys answered me and then my thread was deleted. I guess Terry didn't want his members to be seen in a negative light. That's why I like this forum, it doesn't try to censor us and we can speak freely.

[JCsPlumbing]

NH. What BS. I really like helping others and don't mind helping a HO tweak the small stuff safely. But some of these SOB's want you to draw it out for them, tell them what to buy, explain plumbing theory to them, etc. while cutting out our local brothers.

At one time I thought that maybe the Ask section should be removed to keep out the leeches. But after thinking about it the section brings about some of the best conversation and debate between the pros & can really get the pros involved as much as any HO.

I tried another Pros site for awhile and it was just dead. People just sitting there agreeing or not posting anything.

Your post was nothing troublesome at all and just shows the weakness of the other site in my opinion.

Lucky the person wasn't standing beside some of us. I myself have been known to not have the best language on jobs.

F'em.

J.C.

[DuckButter]

I used to frequent that forum, until one day a landlord offers advice on how plumbers are starving for work in FLA and NOW is the time to get the to work on the cheap because one of his tennants is a plumber and had been paying rent late in recent months.

The very same landlord had gotten a plethora of free plumbing info from the same plumbers he was trying to screw.

As for my thoughts on free advice online, I have completely made myself clear...repeatedly.

Those of you who have established a business over the years are lucky to not have to deal with the constant calls like "Oh, thats more money than I want to pay...I'll just do it myself, thank you.".

I see "helpful" fella's offering really handy advice online and wonder how many plumbers already went to that homeowners house on their time & gas money to offer free estimates.

It blows my mind when I see the reactions of posters NON DIY forums as they get shott down...they're usually disgruntled, often reacting as if it's owed to them.
This is the result of conditioning...online is where you get anything you want either cheap, or altogether free.

I no longer care how selfish I might seem, nor whether I win any "popularity contests"...I cannot stand by and witness the death of my trade as some really swell fellla a thousand miles away walks harry handyman through doing the job I quoted for half the price I bid it on to cover my legitimate overhead.

Oh wait...but Harry says he's a low income homeowner...he's gotta be honest, this is the internet, where everyone is honest.
The fact that Harry has a pc with internet is just a sign of how charitable the world is...it was donated to him because he couldn't afford it.

Plumdog, I think of you often sir...miss ya man.

[Service Guy]

:bow-down:
Duckbutter for president.:D

[HVAC HAWK]

i say we send dumbar over there :D

[boillerman]

So are you telling me that little statement about your bro doing your surgery is what got you the boot? My first thought was...never mind,
wouldn't want to get someone else booted. I've seen some pretty brash
statements over there about freebie advice. Much worse than that.

Never had a problem with helping out, until it gets to a point where the pro should be doing the work. Mr. fixit can find his expansion noises, but replacing the expansion tank on that boiler should be done by someone who knows what they're doing.

[NHMaster3015]

My irritation comes not from the average guy that want's to change out a faucet or fix his toilet. I consider these things that anyone can and should do. But when you get into plumbing the entire waste, vent and water supply system, this is a job left to the professionals. In fact there are a few states that will not allow an unlicensed plumber to do it even if he does own the house. The guys that post entire piping diagrams, fully expecting a professional to thrash out his design and some even go so far as to provide a material list are the ones that aggravate me.
We all work for a living and expect to get paid. And consider that the second you call your lawyer and he picks up the phone, he starts charging by the minute.

And while I'm at it I want to thank Josh for understanding the frustrations that we have and pretty much allowing us to police ourselves without anything more than the occasional word. Hell, I got prodded last night and glad I did, on another thread because If not I would most likely have said a whole lot of derogatory things about Tinmack and Canada without giving thought first. Though I do have a whole pipe of Canada jokes and insults that are sadly not going to good use:cool:

[spodelee]

Though I do have a whole pipe of Canada jokes and insults that are sadly not going to good use:cool:

:rotflmao1::rotflmao1::rotflmao1::rotflmao1::rotfl mao1:

[DuckButter]

I have to agree, Josh gets a LOAD of credit for being so even tempered and open minded...HOWEVER...
We cannot forget Mark in all this.
I can attest first hand to the patience that man has.
A thanks to both, from me.

[DuckButter]

My irritation comes not from the average guy that want's to change out a faucet or fix his toilet. I consider these things that anyone can and should do. But when you get into plumbing the entire waste, vent and water supply system, this is a job left to the professionals. In fact there are a few states that will not allow an unlicensed plumber to do it even if he does own the house. The guys that post entire piping diagrams, fully expecting a professional to thrash out his design and some even go so far as to provide a material list are the ones that aggravate me.
We all work for a living and expect to get paid. And consider that the second you call your lawyer and he picks up the phone, he starts charging by the minute.

And while I'm at it I want to thank Josh for understanding the frustrations that we have and pretty much allowing us to police ourselves without anything more than the occasional word. Hell, I got prodded last night and glad I did, on another thread because If not I would most likely have said a whole lot of derogatory things about Tinmack and Canada without giving thought first. Though I do have a whole pipe of Canada jokes and insults that are sadly not going to good use:cool:

Oh, I can think of one right off the top of my head....

[NHMaster3015]

I think it was Mark that prodded us last night on the other thread, though there's no way I'm going to go back through it all to see. Anyhoooo Thanks Mark.

[Service Guy]

My only question is:
Why participate in a forum like that in the first place?:shrug:

[OkieBill]

I'm just gonna go ahead and ask.... Where is this site???

--I would like to go and impart some wisdom:mad:

Bill

[NHMaster3015]

I thought I made that clear in another thread.

It's My Elephant sized EGO :rotflmao:

[spodelee]

The guys that post entire piping diagrams, fully expecting a professional to thrash out his design and some even go so far as to provide a material list are the ones that aggravate me.
We all work for a living and expect to get paid. And consider that the second you call your lawyer and he picks up the phone, he starts charging by the minute.

The internet & DIY mentality has made its way into all segments of American life - Accountants lose business to Turbotax - attorney's lose business to paralegals and self help web sites - bookkeepers lose jobs to accounting programs - mom & pop stores lose business to on-line stores and Wal Mart - Furgeson lost my purchase of two K-60's & two K39s to Toolup.com, etc... The DIY / internet movement is larger than any of us and IMHO, there is no point in fighting it.

I wise man once reminded me that it is important not to waste energy on battles that can't be won, but rather spend your energy on those battles that can be won, i. e. the other 60-80% of current and potential customers that do not DIY. If we treat those people right, there is plenty of pie for everybody.

I think the key to preserving the trades is education. Not just education about our craft, but also education about how to run a business and how to effectively treat people. Most of us were put on this world to build and fix things, so hitting the books wasn't real high on our priority list way back when. Consequently, the industry as a whole doesn't know how to make itself indispensable to the customer, which makes many of us an easy target for the do it yourselfer.

In any case, I strongly believe that a trades person can protect him/herself from the DIY/internet movement by spoiling the customer with customer service that is not easily ignored. After all, people are lazy by nature and most of them, if given the opportunity, will take the path of least resistance... the plumber with exceptional customer service.

[Masterplumb]

Oh, I can think of one right off the top of my head....

I can too....Hmmm

[JCsPlumbing]

I see I can learn alot from you about business. Good analysis.

J.C.

[Tyman]

I don't know what site your talking about but it seems like you're not loosing much. It's hard to imagine that your statement was grounds for any kind of reprimand. Forget them!

[DuckButter]

The internet & DIY mentality has made its way into all segments of American life - Accountants lose business to Turbotax - attorney's lose business to paralegals and self help web sites - bookkeepers lose jobs to accounting programs - mom & pop stores lose business to on-line stores and Wal Mart - Furgeson lost my purchase of two K-60's & two K39s to Toolup.com, etc... The DIY / internet movement is larger than any of us and IMHO, there is no point in fighting it.

I wise man once reminded me that it is important not to waste energy on battles that can't be won, but rather spend your energy on those battles that can be won, i. e. the other 60-80% of current and potential customers that do not DIY. If we treat those people right, there is plenty of pie for everybody.

I think the key to preserving the trades is education. Not just education about our craft, but also education about how to run a business and how to effectively treat people. Most of us were put on this world to build and fix things, so hitting the books wasn't real high on our priority list way back when. Consequently, the industry as a whole doesn't know how to make itself indispensable to the customer, which makes many of us an easy target for the do it yourselfer.

In any case, I strongly believe that a trades person can protect him/herself from the DIY/internet movement by spoiling the customer with customer service that is not easily ignored. After all, people are lazy by nature and most of them, if given the opportunity, will take the path of least resistance... the plumber with exceptional customer service.

I can see your point....interesting how the internet is creating a shift in commerce, good for some things, bad for others.
I cannot fight it if my ad budget grows and grows as homeowners and handymen reap havoc on our trade.

One thing has popped into mind, knowingly offering free advice to someone who is doing something illegal...

Lets say Harry homeowner burns his house down, kills his family with co poisoning, or has to have extensive work done from water damage.
His lawyer tells him he was not advised that doing the work was illegal, or the professional that informed him on how to do the work should not have done so in the first place....I think that will be interesting.

Sounds rediculous, until you think of the woman that sued McDonalds for spilling her own coffee on her own lap because McDonalds brewed it too hot.

[Josh]

Amen to the Mark part. I respect Mark more every day. He is a huge part of keeping the forum as good as it is.

Thanks Mark!!!

I have to agree, Josh gets a LOAD of credit for being so even tempered and open minded...HOWEVER...
We cannot forget Mark in all this.
I can attest first hand to the patience that man has.
A thanks to both, from me.

[DUNBAR]

i say we send dumbar over there :D




:happydance:



I'm a member over there. I haven't posted much lately as I'm having difficulties these days answering plumbing questions without pay. I'll randomly do it but when I was sitting in this office for the first 16 months hammering away answers to everyone's plumbing problems, correcting people's misspellings and even go as far as helping people who don't know me from adam by email?


I got nothing. Not even a cookie. The work I would pull from one site in particular was horrible. Ask me 300 questions before I do a 2 question job. :banghead:



I was demodded from DIY.com......couldn't tell you when because I hadn't been there in months. I can see why they would remove me as 36 posts in 3 years doesn't really show that I want that position. They had a good group of staff years ago and it's never been the same since. So I floated till they gave up thinking I'm there for their functionality.

I answered 4 posts this week on that site, came back a day later and the forum I posted in only gained 2 new posts above my responses so something obviously went wrong there while I've been absent. I've left quite a few sites as I'm just past that, it's time to move on when you've done all you can and it's bothersome to go back.......knowing you've put so much time into something without any pay whatsoever.

No perks, just a status icon. It's not important anymore. Ricki Lake put on weight and is sitting on top of me right now threatening me to write all this, otherwise she's going to bounce and break my hips if I don't. :happydance:

[toolaholic]

I won't say the site,but here are the initials TERRY LOVE. I don't go there any more .
Advice was and is given to folks that will just cause a disaster for them or some poor soul that buys the house later. I can't believe info on gas work is given out to homeowners.
You know by the questions , they don't have a clue. You're a good Man Master ,and add a lot to this forum ,their loss. Tool

[gear junkie]

I wise man once reminded me that it is important not to waste energy on battles that can't be won, but rather spend your energy on those battles that can be won,
Very well said, your post was to the point but this comment stuck out the most.

[spodelee]

I can see your point....interesting how the internet is creating a shift in commerce, good for some things, bad for others.
I cannot fight it if my ad budget grows and grows as homeowners and handymen reap havoc on our trade.

One thing has popped into mind, knowingly offering free advice to someone who is doing something illegal...

Lets say Harry homeowner burns his house down, kills his family with co poisoning, or has to have extensive work done from water damage.
His lawyer tells him he was not advised that doing the work was illegal, or the professional that informed him on how to do the work should not have done so in the first place....I think that will be interesting.

Sounds rediculous, until you think of the woman that sued McDonalds for spilling her own coffee on her own lap because McDonalds brewed it too hot.

There is an HVAC post today, where detailed info was given about resizing oil burner orifices... gives me chills.

[DUNBAR]

there is an hvac post today, where detailed info was given about resizing oil burner orifices... Gives me chills.




link please!

[BHD]

DIY mentality has made its way into all segments of American life

The DIY mentality is what has made this country,
it was here from day one of first explorers, yes there were people with expertise, but they still had a large mastery of skills and most could do many things not jsut one, thing

when people moved west, the "pioneers" were DIYers, they built there own housing out of the materials on hand (sod or logs, or what ever, used buffalo dung for fires, fixed there own wagons, did there own vet work, raised there own food and butchered there own meat, with very little out side help,

one of the other things was team work, they all helped each other, in there process of settling the west,

my Grand father, was a farmer, a rancher, a general store owner, a homesteader, a land broker, laid out a town (I guess you could call him surveyor), a banker, built buildings,
and I do not know all the other things that he did. but he was a DIYer,

my uncle was a farmer, telephone lineman, mechanic, welder, plaster, and ended up a top NASA rocket engineer, (and never had a degree), (top electrical engineer for the Saturn second stage rocket booster, and many other projects including parts of the space shuttle). He was a good DIYer as well.

most any farmer is a DIYer some times out of need and some times out of desire,
most are very good agronomist, mechanics, truckers, heavy machine operators, carpenters, welders, plumbers, electricians, (most around here keep there 460 three phase wells operating, at least the basics), and many also are not to bad at the markets and trading. two of our local farmers are lawyers as well.

during the 1930 you either DIY or did with out.

after WW2 the DIY movement was in high gear, with the service men and women getting back to civilian life, one of the very popular magazines of the era was "popular science, and popular mechanics" ever look through one of the 1950 era magazines, they were chocked full of DIY projects and how to.

one of the popular DIY books of the post WW2 era, was, "your dream home,... for less than $3500" http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGIH,GGIH:2007-02,GGIH:en&q=your+dream+home%2c%2e%2e%2e+for+less+than+%24350 0%22

the DIYer has been around a long time, yes there has been a resurgent of it in the last 20 or so years, but it is by no way new,

I do think what is new is the GOD syndrom in the licenced trades, I do not care what the trade is if there is a licence tax required by the Government to work in that line of work, then some how it is beyond any one else to able to do there own. It has only been a few years of many of the license have been required, (many less than 30 years, and some locations there still not required by many counties, and many of the requirements vary greatly by state to state).
was only a few years ago, that AC was licenced, and you can get the basic EPA licence to use refrigerants and a short test, via the Internet,
http://www.epatest.com/608/openbook/
I am not denying that any one did not work and earn there licence, but everyone else who does much of any thing has done the same, they work hard and learn and if there good they excelled in there chosen business, but the truth of the mater is the licence is a piece of paper and a tax, and makes one league given locations,

(I guess I am jsut amazed that so many of you sallow the TAXATION and the GOVERNMENT INTRUSION in to your lives and work, and even at that to take a job you have to pay another TAX called a permit, and even being licence, (Taxed and trained to do the job correctly, and Savior of public health, you need to pay another TAX, called an inspection to get your job approved).


If one does not want to help some one, then don't, but to bash some one who want to learn and to gain some knowledge what is wrong with that, if that is the case, then those who are teaching here, should not teach to unlicensed persons, or at least have there apprentice cards, If you want a secrete trade then why even frequent sites that even allow DIYer post. Yes I hope some one who is Licenced has more skills and abilities and understands things better than some one who is not in the trade, but why is it a crime for them to do it them selves? There was a post not that long ago on working on your own cars, many here do varying degrees of there own service, WHY? either you like it want to learn more, or are saving some moneys.

DIY is not wrong, it is an American heritage, it definitely is not NEW.

[glkearns]

I lurk on other sites, have yet to find anything there worth filling out the registration form for.

Greg

[spodelee]

link please!

http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19311

[DuckButter]

There is an HVAC post today, where detailed info was given about resizing oil burner orifices... gives me chills.

Heck, we had a guy here a few months back asking about his boiler.
He was doing some relatively mundane stuff, then out of the blue he decides to mess with the gas valve adjustments.

We never heard from him again.

Or another fella installing his own 120 amp electric tankless, picking and choosing the advice he liked best, insulting the guys who didn't tell him what he wanted to hear.

He disappeared too.

For giggles, either yesterday or the day before I noticed a DIY inquirer was a marketing professional, I offered to help out as long as he were willing to offer some free advice in our new business section.

Yup, he disappeared.

[DuckButter]

............
I am not denying that any one did not work and earn there licence, but everyone else who does much of any thing has done the same, they work hard and learn and if there good they excelled in there chosen business, but the truth of the mater is the licence is a piece of paper and a tax, and makes one league given locations, ........


I absolutely 100% disagree with that statement.
I understand the farming mentality, you don't have a lot of money and no time to wait for a pro to get back to you, but that statement right there completely sums the attitude towards plumbing, gas & electrical that kills people every year.

[BHD]

There is an HVAC post today, where detailed info was given about resizing oil burner orifices... gives me chills.


when companys put out liturature like this why are you bothered,

http://www.delavaninc.com/pdf/total_look.pdf

Any basic heating book will tell the same,

[Service Guy]

I noticed a DIY inquirer was a marketing professional, I offered to help out as long as he were willing to offer some free advice in our new business section.

Yup, he disappeared.

Smart man. I am not a charity consultant, I had one customer this week who openly complained about the price to me while I worked! (even though he had called three other plumbers before me, and I had given him a free phone estimate.)
He tried to pick my brain for ideas and watched me every second like a hawk...I finally had to tell him to let me do my job because I had other appointments. He figured since I was 'expensive' in his mind, he would get his money's worth by asking me 500 questions and dragging out the job. I finally had to tell him to let me finish my job, finished and got paid.
I won't be working for him again, that is for sure.
Insult me by telling me I overcharge and then treat me like a free DIYer encyclopedia! :mad: No thanks, luckily 90% of the customers who call are much cooler than that.:cool:

[spodelee]

(I guess I am jsut amazed that so many of you sallow the TAXATION and the GOVERNMENT INTRUSION in to your lives and work, and even at that to take a job you have to pay another TAX called a permit, and even being licence, (Taxed and trained to do the job correctly, and Savior of public health, you need to pay another TAX, called an inspection to get your job approved).


True, licensing is taxation and government intrusion. In fact, by licensing you make yourself a target. After all, now the government knows a whole lot more about you than they did before you got that license. It's a whole lot easier to pick on the licensed guy than the guy hidden in the shadows.

Nonetheless, an attempt must be made to protect the public through licensing, as well as an industry that has a vested financial interest. Otherwise, cats would live with dogs, Brittney Spears would be president, Duckbutter would be a flaming liberal :D, and anarchy would prevail, etc...

[DuckButter]

There is an HVAC post today, where detailed info was given about resizing oil burner orifices... gives me chills.

You'll notice I posted some very helpful advice myself...couldn't resist.

[Service Guy]

The internet & DIY mentality has made its way into all segments of American life - Accountants lose business to Turbotax - attorney's lose business to paralegals and self help web sites - bookkeepers lose jobs to accounting programs - mom & pop stores lose business to on-line stores and Wal Mart - Furgeson lost my purchase of two K-60's & two K39s to Toolup.com, etc... The DIY / internet movement is larger than any of us and IMHO, there is no point in fighting it.

I wise man once reminded me that it is important not to waste energy on battles that can't be won, but rather spend your energy on those battles that can be won, i. e. the other 60-80% of current and potential customers that do not DIY. If we treat those people right, there is plenty of pie for everybody.

I think the key to preserving the trades is education. Not just education about our craft, but also education about how to run a business and how to effectively treat people. Most of us were put on this world to build and fix things, so hitting the books wasn't real high on our priority list way back when. Consequently, the industry as a whole doesn't know how to make itself indispensable to the customer, which makes many of us an easy target for the do it yourselfer.

In any case, I strongly believe that a trades person can protect him/herself from the DIY/internet movement by spoiling the customer with customer service that is not easily ignored. After all, people are lazy by nature and most of them, if given the opportunity, will take the path of least resistance... the plumber with exceptional customer service.

This post shows a deep understanding of the plumbing business. I am going to save this one to my computer!:thumbup2: :thumbup:

[spodelee]

when companys put out liturature like this why are you bothered,

http://www.delavaninc.com/pdf/total_look.pdf

Any basic heating book will tell the same,

Well, this is going to come off as emotional hogwash, but google "boiler explosion" and see what you get.

Call me paranoid, but until I know a persons real qualifications, detailed advise on how to modify a boiler, or any other gas or electrical device for that matter, will not be given via an internet forum.

[bacskcah]

This thread has raised some interesting points. I feel somewhat ambivalent about the diy homeowner thing. On the one hand I agree with the frontier ethic of do or do without. I think that attitude is somewhat lacking in our country with a specialized economy. Everybody knows allot about one thing and not much about everything else. The problem is that we don't all live on the frontier any more. Mistakes with plumbing and electrical work might make your house an insanitary slop hole (we have all seen it) or a fire trap, and I believe in every mans right to live in whatever conditions he chooses. The problem is that we don't all live on our own isolated islands. In a city what you do in your house effects me. What I do effects you. Thus building codes, zoning laws, permits and licensed professionals doing the work. This morning I couldn't get my work truck down the street as it was blocked off by several fire engines and gas company trucks. A homeowner was installing an irrigation system and didn't realize there was a gas pipe down there! I wonder if he is planing on installing a double check?
I'm feeling less ambivalent now.:mad:

[NHMaster3015]

There is an HVAC post today, where detailed info was given about resizing oil burner orifices... gives me chills.

You will note that in that post though I explained a bit about pump pressure and such I made it quite clear that the burner should in no way be touched without a combustion analyzer, a tool that as far as I know cannot be rented from Home Depot.

[NHMaster3015]

BHD, Would you get directions from a blind man? The DIY sites would be all but useless without the contributions of us licensed plumbers. I don't see my license as a tax because it isn't. The money we pay for our licensing and further education and even permits goes to running the overseeing boards not to welfare recipients. The cold hard facts are that without proper knowledge and training a diy guy can and on many many ocassions do things like. poison the public water supply ( backflow - waste seepage) Blow up and burn down buildings ( gas piping, boiler & furnace service) cause sickness and disease ( drainage & venting) And the list goes on and on. I have whole books in my classroom that detail these and many other horrors.

[toolaholic]

Good point,This is why I don't give advice on oil burners

[NHMaster3015]

They sent me an email telling me they blocked my ip address so I fired this back. Not that it will make a rat's assed bit of difference.

Here's what I bring to the table
Master plumbing licenses in Maine, NH, Mass, Fla
RSES Universal license
Master oil burner and solid fuel license ME
Master Gas Licences (5) NH
36 Years Plumbing and HVAC experiance
25 Years Plumbing & Heating business
11 years Plumbing & HVAC Instructor Creteau Tech Ctr.
10 Years Plumbing Apprentice Instructor
OSHA safety instructior
What are you bringing to your table except a closed mind?
I'll just go back to the "other" site. The one where true professionals hang out. The one where the moderators understand the need for differing opinions and don't feel the need to kiss the asses of every hack diy'er in the world.
When one of your diy hacks blows up his house and kills his kids because of hack advice he got on your site, I'm sure your lawyers have figured a way to absolve you of liability. You will not have to pay, only live with your decision for the rest of your life. You do more harm here than you will ever know or admit.

And yea, I probably shouldn't have said anything about oil burner nozzles now that I think of it. Maybe the guy will open up the transformer and get whacked. That will slow him down.

[spodelee]

You will note that in that post though I explained a bit about pump pressure and such I made it quite clear that the burner should in no way be touched without a combustion analyzer, a tool that as far as I know cannot be rented from Home Depot.

You know how people are, they will hear what they want to hear. Analyzer? Aghhh, I'll just look for a blue flame.

Doesn't really matter to you and I anyway, we are small potatoes. The real enchilada is the Ridgid Corporation. I can hear the attorney now...

Mr. Josh, "My client was given instructions to modify his boiler on your forum correct? And you are the moderator for that web site? Have you any experience modifying boilers? What are your qualifications for modification of a boiler? What procedure did you have in place at the time to ensure that information given for modification of a boiler was accurate? If you are not an expert in the modification of boilers, then how do you know when advice given is right or wrong? Don't you think it would be prudent to ensure advice given is accurate, after all peoples lives are at stake? etc...

Josh's liberal posting policy is appreciated, but I suspect that even with a lengthy disclosure statement (when you join the forum), this is one area where the fun we have on this forum could work against him.

Who am I to say though, I'm just an ol' furnace guy, changin filters and lubin' motors and such. :D

[DUNBAR]

You know how people are, they will hear what they want to hear. Analyzer? Aghhh, I'll just look for a blue flame.

Doesn't really matter to you and I anyway, we are small potatoes. The real enchilada is the Ridgid Corporation. I can hear the attorney now...

Mr. Josh, "My client was given instructions to modify his boiler on your forum correct? And you are the moderator for that web site? Have you any experience modifying boilers? What are your qualifications for modification of a boiler? What procedure did you have in place at the time to ensure that information given for modification of a boiler was accurate? If you are not an expert in the modification of boilers, then how do you know when advice given is right or wrong? Don't you think it would be prudent to ensure advice given is accurate, after all peoples lives are at stake? etc...

Josh's liberal posting policy is appreciated, but I suspect that even with a lengthy disclosure statement (when you join the forum), this is one area where the fun we have on this forum could work against him.

Who am I to say though, I'm just an ol' furnace guy, changin filters and lubin' motors and such. :D




http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/announcement.php?f=11





I'd say they've got it covered from back in 2006 to 2020

[JCsPlumbing]

I stick by my assessment.

F'em.

J.C.

[DuckButter]

You will note that in that post though I explained a bit about pump pressure and such I made it quite clear that the burner should in no way be touched without a combustion analyzer, a tool that as far as I know cannot be rented from Home Depot.


He'll find a used one on Craigslist, get a false reading and learn to enjoy the convenience of roasting marshmallows in his own basment!:eek:


Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Bob D.]

I don't know. It just strikes me as kinda funny that that forum depends on real plumbers to make the whole thing work but if we aren't willing to kiss the home owners *** we get the boot. This whole diy crap has gotten way way out of hand. It's getting to the point that having a license is a joke. What's the point. so I have to play by the rules and jump through hoops but any hack home owner can do whatever he damn well pleases? I have news for them. Even though you hold the mortgage it doesn't mean ye have the right to hack up the mechanicals. When you do hack work and bury it in the walls or ceilings and then sell the house in a few years who inherits your crap work? The new owner, that's who. Plumbers Protect the Health of the Nation. Proper plumbing has all but eliminated the spread of many diseases and yet Joe Home owner can ignore all that and Hack hack away.


Preaching to the choir on this forum. Youz guyz need to be taking these problems to your respective state Master Plumber association or other group who can/will lobby to get the law changed.

[NHMaster3015]

The latest from the Zen Master himself.

How nice.
I think it's better for you on the other site.
I don't need jerks like you on this board.
There was one moderator from your site that erased a good portion of
mine.
I get that you guys are pretty scary.
Go scare someone else.
It's called manners.
Nice topic for a Sunday.

Terry Love

[spodelee]

The latest from the Zen Master himself.

How nice.
I think it's better for you on the other site.
I don't need jerks like you on this board.
There was one moderator from your site that erased a good portion of
mine.
I get that you guys are pretty scary.
Go scare someone else.
It's called manners.
Nice topic for a Sunday.

Terry Love

Glad I registered but never really got involved.

[DuckButter]

Preaching to the choir on this forum. Youz guyz need to be taking these problems to your respective state Master Plumber association or other group who can/will lobby to get the law changed.

Not a lawyer here, but if I were to openly engage in offering free advice to a fella on how to rab a bank, I'd be aiding & abetting...it's against the law.

If I were to offer help on how to rig an odometer to make it appear a car has much less mileage, again, I'd be aiding & abetting.

Offering advice on tax cheats or hiding assets, heck, I'd be afraid to log on from home with IP tracing and the patriot act allowing ip address's to be tracked down.

This is plumbing, and yes, offering free advice to someone in a state where it's illegal, to adjust a boiler or install a water heater is illegal.

I see governments getting involved when one of two things begin to happen....
People begin dying as a result of the overwhelming freedom of information that they wouldn't ordinarily have access to...or
The trade begins to become affected by it and enough licensed trades begin to make it known there is a problem.

I see both happening inevitably, view most DIY sites and you see they are growing exponentially, simple logistics - law of averages says something will happen soon with the hundreds, even thousands of answered requests online in the course of any given week.

It's only a matter of time before, say a homeowner who decided to illegally install his own water heater, boiler or stove for example, burns down his home and seeks compensation in an act of desperation when his insurance co denies coverage for not being able to procure permits & documentation of the fixture installed by a licensed tradesman.

[ToUtahNow]

I have moderated many site over the years (mostly biker sites) and have seen forum wars break out on occasion. I would hope that we are above that here and will allow Terry Love to go on operating his site without disruption. It seems this would have been the time to use the old phrase "....fine, I've been kicked out of much better places than this before...". I believe we all appreciate the contribution NHMaster3015 brings and should thank Mr. Love for giving NHMaster3015 more time to devote to us.

Mark

[spodelee]

I have moderated many site over the years (mostly biker sites) and have seen forum wars break out on occasion. I would hope that we are above that here and will allow Terry Love to go on operating his site without disruption. It seems this would have been the time to use the old phrase "....fine, I've been kicked out of much better places than this before...". I believe we all appreciate the contribution NHMaster3015 brings and should thank Mr. Love for giving NHMaster3015 more time to devote to us.

Mark

Oh, come on Mark! Don't make us take the high road. That takes class, tact and diplomacy!!!!! :crying::crying:

[toolaholic]

Well Master,now I'm probably banned ,Up there too! LIVE FREE OR DIE ,BROTHER.
If we don't hang togeather BBLA BLA BLA , HE HE

[NHMaster3015]

Just to clarify things. I never went on there to get into a fight, insult anybody or trash his site. And I hope you guys won't either. I guess I just didn't understand the rules. I thought I might meet up with other plumbers and hvac guys cause I'm not nieve enough to think this is the only forum in town. And I think there may be a few good guys that post there but like Mark says. Time to move on.

[DuckButter]

I have moderated many site over the years (mostly biker sites) and have seen forum wars break out on occasion. I would hope that we are above that here and will allow Terry Love to go on operating his site without disruption. It seems this would have been the time to use the old phrase "....fine, I've been kicked out of much better places than this before...". I believe we all appreciate the contribution NHMaster3015 brings and should thank Mr. Love for giving NHMaster3015 more time to devote to us.

Mark

I doubt it will creep over to here.
One of his moderators started a post lashing out at the pro's only forum....asserting NH is a member (is he?).
He feels plumbers apparently have no rights to a forum for themselves.

I have yet to hop into that forum...I know it'll prolly get ugly because those guys there are relatively unrestrained....oh boy...

[DuckButter]

Just to clarify things. I never went on there to get into a fight, insult anybody or trash his site. And I hope you guys won't either. I guess I just didn't understand the rules. I thought I might meet up with other plumbers and hvac guys cause I'm not nieve enough to think this is the only forum in town. And I think there may be a few good guys that post there but like Mark says. Time to move on.

My history there was almost identical.
At first it seemed harmless, then as I started seeing jaw dropping tutorials from engineers, short order cooks & librarians I began to say my mind...it didn't go over well.

I had a good dozen posts deleted before I chatted with him and agreed to let sleeping dogs lie.
But as the answered requests grow more and more profoundly, I find myself wondering how dangerous is it to allow free boiler installation tutorials?...how many plumbers are out of work or slowing down?
What effect are sites like these having on the trades overall?

Home Depot stock & HGTV ratings are an almost sure way to guage the effect.

There's the argument that the DIY stuff is leading to more work down the road, sure...but then it's the new homeowner who's broke & in tears as you explain whole walls & ceilings have to be demo'd in order to eliminate the sewage odors.

[BHD]

Would I get directions from a blind man, I suppose depends on who that person is, and what the directions are for, I know two blind people and they both excelled in there current trades, one is a mechanic and one builds beautiful wood items in his shop.

Can they do every thing a sighted person can NO, but they in some ways can do more and "see" things I may never see with my eyes.

As far was it goes, I do not know how good your vision is,

I did not say one should not follow the codes or do things properly, yes there are DIY that do not do things the way they should be done, but there are licenced people who cut corners as well, (my guess is that is why there are inspectors, and why many seem to think there important, and there intrusion into private property is necessary), (I guess in a perfect world a licenced person would be exempt from inspections as they are "trained and Know" the correct way to do a job. and to follow the specifications, on a job sheet).

There will always be the guys who jsut want to make or save a buck any why they can. licenced and unlicensed,

I ask questions on many other boards as well as give my opinions,

on a mechanical fabricating based board, not that long ago I asked a question on an Idea on a wind turbine tower I am erecting or going to build, it was obvious by the answers I was getting, either no one either understood the question, or had a comprehension on how to do what I wanted to do, I have a good idea on what I want to do there, but thought I would ask becasue some items even a off answer can give one an idea one never would have thought of. jsut because some one posted an answer did not mean I was going to follow there advice, Have I come up with my final tower top design for the wind turbine mount, NO, but I did try, and If I would come across a better more pointed board to 5kw to 20kw small wind generation I would probly try again, but you would be a fool to jsut take any information blindly, and use it with out searching it out for its usability and if it is proper for your application.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

the speed of change in our world in many people is exciting and challenging at the same time, and some do not want any except for that that benefits them.
jsut a few short years ago, my only source was a few books I could find, for research, and very limited library's,
now I can set down at a box on my desk and search documents all over the world mostly limited by my ability of figuring out how to ask via search words,
also the ability to transmit pictures and receive them and to talk to people a half a world away in real time.

for thousands of years, there were a limited number of things one did, and very slow changed, change that took thousands of years to infiltrate mankind,

then we came to a Industrial Revolution, in the 1700's and things started to change for man kind, from beast of burden to machine, in another 150+ years, we were traveling by rail and automobile, there was the beginning of communications by wire, and were toying with the marvels of electricity in ever day application,,

for most of of us many of the trades and jobs that were employed at had not even been thought of 150 years ago, and if it was it would not hardly resemble the work one does to day,

Wood workers called coopers made wooden pipe to carry water for example.

look at the changes that even some of us older members have seen in our life times, I think of the changes in my dads life time, from heaver than air craft in there infancy to seeing men walk on the moon, to the space shuttle, from horses and wagons as a norm to interstate highways, from the telephone being a novelty of his huge box on the wall and a crank on it side, to people being to carry this little plastic thing and walk and talk to some one on the other side of the world, even pictures.

look at any trade some did not even exist 100 years ago, and other trades that were staples of the day no longer exist only as a specialty maned by one or two craftsman, buggy whip makers for example.

at least plumbers have existed for thousands of years, and will probly continue to exist for thousands to come, but unlike the brick layer of the roman times or the lead smith, materials will change and the way things are done will change, and the frame work in which it is done will probly continue to change, but there is job security as long as there are people who need water and continue to eliminate.

one thing is the net brings about a way of information, for both the professional and the DIYer,
and in a forum like this the two cross, jsut one of the changes of today.

and instead of your neighbor or your brother in law or one of his friends, that wants your advice for free, it is some complete stranger, asking, (look at it this way you do not have to take your Sunday afternoon to go help him out of a jam like your brother in law out for free to keep peace in the family.).

[spodelee]

Would I get directions from a blind man, I suppose depends on who that person is, and what the directions are for, I know two blind people and they both excelled in there current trades, one is a mechanic and one builds beautiful wood items in his shop.

Can they do every thing a sighted person can NO, but they in some ways can do more and "see" things I may never see with my eyes.

As far was it goes, I do not know how good your vision is,

I did not say one should not follow the codes or do things properly, yes there are DIY that do not do things the way they should be done, but there are licenced people who cut corners as well, (my guess is that is why there are inspectors, and why many seem to think there important, and there intrusion into private property is necessary), (I guess in a perfect world a licenced person would be exempt from inspections as they are "trained and Know" the correct way to do a job. and to follow the specifications, on a job sheet).

There will always be the guys who jsut want to make or save a buck any why they can. licenced and unlicensed,

I ask questions on many other boards as well as give my opinions,

on a mechanical fabricating based board, not that long ago I asked a question on an Idea on a wind turbine tower I am erecting or going to build, it was obvious by the answers I was getting, either no one either understood the question, or had a comprehension on how to do what I wanted to do, I have a good idea on what I want to do there, but thought I would ask becasue some items even a off answer can give one an idea one never would have thought of. jsut because some one posted an answer did not mean I was going to follow there advice, Have I come up with my final tower top design for the wind turbine mount, NO, but I did try, and If I would come across a better more pointed board to 5kw to 20kw small wind generation I would probly try again, but you would be a fool to jsut take any information blindly, and use it with out searching it out for its usability and if it is proper for your application.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

the speed of change in our world in many people is exciting and challenging at the same time, and some do not want any except for that that benefits them.
jsut a few short years ago, my only source was a few books I could find, for research, and very limited library's,
now I can set down at a box on my desk and search documents all over the world mostly limited by my ability of figuring out how to ask via search words,
also the ability to transmit pictures and receive them and to talk to people a half a world away in real time.

for thousands of years, there were a limited number of things one did, and very slow changed, change that took thousands of years to infiltrate mankind,

then we came to a Industrial Revolution, in the 1700's and things started to change for man kind, from beast of burden to machine, in another 150+ years, we were traveling by rail and automobile, there was the beginning of communications by wire, and were toying with the marvels of electricity in ever day application,,

for most of of us many of the trades and jobs that were employed at had not even been thought of 150 years ago, and if it was it would not hardly resemble the work one does to day,

Wood workers called coopers made wooden pipe to carry water for example.

look at the changes that even some of us older members have seen in our life times, I think of the changes in my dads life time, from heaver than air craft in there infancy to seeing men walk on the moon, to the space shuttle, from horses and wagons as a norm to interstate highways, from the telephone being a novelty of his huge box on the wall and a crank on it side, to people being to carry this little plastic thing and walk and talk to some one on the other side of the world, even pictures.

look at any trade some did not even exist 100 years ago, and other trades that were staples of the day no longer exist only as a specialty maned by one or two craftsman, buggy whip makers for example.

at least plumbers have existed for thousands of years, and will probly continue to exist for thousands to come, but unlike the brick layer of the roman times or the lead smith, materials will change and the way things are done will change, and the frame work in which it is done will probly continue to change, but there is job security as long as there are people who need water and continue to eliminate.

one thing is the net brings about a way of information, for both the professional and the DIYer,
and in a forum like this the two cross, jsut one of the changes of today.

and instead of your neighbor or your brother in law or one of his friends, that wants your advice for free, it is some complete stranger, asking, (look at it this way you do not have to take your Sunday afternoon to go help him out of a jam like your brother in law out for free to keep peace in the family.).

Yep. That's why we trades people have to focus on things that don't change. Like how to please our customers in such a way that they want US, regardless of what we happen to be selling at the time.

What we know is a secondary concern to the customer and a primary concern to our own ego. Our customer's primary concern is how they are treated and ultimately, that is what determines the fate of most plumbing & hvac service companies.

The internet can NEVER replace personal relationships and good customer service.

[NHMaster3015]

BHD, I thank you for the history lesson but I think your have missed my point. Most of the diy things that you can and by all means should do, do not endanger the health and safety of your family or neighborhood.

[Masterplumb]

I doubt it will creep over to here.
One of his moderators started a post lashing out at the pro's only forum....asserting NH is a member (is he?).
He feels plumbers apparently have no rights to a forum for themselves.

I have yet to hop into that forum...I know it'll prolly get ugly because those guys there are relatively unrestrained....oh boy...

I got your back....just say the word :poke:

[DuckButter]

I got your back....just say the word :poke:

Ye gads man...I didn't say I wanted to do anything that bad!:eek::eek:

[BHD]

BHD, I thank you for the history lesson but I think your have missed my point. Most of the diy things that you can and by all means should do, do not endanger the health and safety of your family or neighborhood.

I do agree, but how is one on a Internet forum going to make that call if the person has the skills or tools or knowledge or abilities to do a job, yes some are mormons and some are people just as capable as you are, (may not work tho in your trade),

Example: should a person fix/change there own tires?
OK in drivers Ed it was a requirement to be able to change the tire on the car.

OK how about a 3/4 ton pickup or van,

one ton dully truck?

a two ton truck?

a piece of industrial machinery?

where is it to stop where is it to much for the owner of the equipment to not do his own work.

Even changing the small car tire can be dangerous, if done wrong, people have been hurt doing it. but it nearly expected of most drivers to be able to do this task.

now where is the line to call in a professional tire truck to do the work?

I have seen people have a service truck do a car tire,

and I change and repair tires on industrial and farm equipment. The bigger the tire the more dangerous it is, the weight of the machine, and the size and weight of the tire and rim.

Where is the line. I do not know for you, I do not know for the next person,



It is kinda like when is to young to teach a kid to drive a veichel or truck,
I had one kid that could drive when he was 6 years old, and I had one that I would not hardly trust at 16. Different abilities.

How old should one be to use a chain saw? For some there never old enough.

What I am saying is some are capable inveigles and some people are not.

But may be it is because of where I live, and the people I deal with I will give them the benefit of the doubt, unless some thing just is glaring that give major indication that they have no clue. I guess my thinking is the reason why they are requesting information is so they do not do some that will endanger them or there family's, if they had no doubts they probly would not be asking and jsut doing. part of it may jsut be exploring Ideas, as well as seeing exactly what the scope of the job is and there sizing them selves up to the job or Vice-versa.

[NHMaster3015]

Realistically the only sure way to judge a persons skills and knowledge is to first insure and verify that they have put in the requisite hours on the job and second to administer a test and require a passing grade. We call the whole system the Plumbing Apprentice Program.

[Bob D.]

Not a lawyer here, but if I were to openly engage in offering free advice to a fella on how to rab a bank, I'd be aiding & abetting...it's against the law.

If I were to offer help on how to rig an odometer to make it appear a car has much less mileage, again, I'd be aiding & abetting.

Offering advice on tax cheats or hiding assets, heck, I'd be afraid to log on from home with IP tracing and the patriot act allowing ip address's to be tracked down.

This is plumbing, and yes, offering free advice to someone in a state where it's illegal, to adjust a boiler or install a water heater is illegal.

I see governments getting involved when one of two things begin to happen....
People begin dying as a result of the overwhelming freedom of information that they wouldn't ordinarily have access to...or
The trade begins to become affected by it and enough licensed trades begin to make it known there is a problem.

I see both happening inevitably, view most DIY sites and you see they are growing exponentially, simple logistics - law of averages says something will happen soon with the hundreds, even thousands of answered requests online in the course of any given week.

It's only a matter of time before, say a homeowner who decided to illegally install his own water heater, boiler or stove for example, burns down his home and seeks compensation in an act of desperation when his insurance co denies coverage for not being able to procure permits & documentation of the fixture installed by a licensed tradesman.

Maybe I did not make my position clear. I agree with you. I am saying that it would be good to petition the Master Plumber Association and push for tightening the laws to make the changes so NO ONE but a licensed plumber or electrician can do any work related to their respective trade can pull a permit.

Here, if an inspector finds unpermitted work has been done to a property (no matter how long ago or how many owners between then and now) they can cite you and have it corrected or removed and you could still pay a fine even though the work was done long before you bought the home. This could also be uncovered by a home inspection at time of sale. If the home inspector sees something that looks suspecious they might query the HO and ask who or when the work was done then research it to see if a permit was pulled.

I think the people who go around flipping houses are the biggest problem as they have no intention of living there so they are not worried about the quality of their work. Here in NJ a HO can do their own work, but needs a permit of course to be legit. Problem is the majority don't get permits unless they have to. Tough for an inspector to spot inside only work especially when its done mostly on weekends when he's not on the clock. Since they own the house they can skirt the licensing issue IF they turn less than three(? maybe two) homes a year. Since they know they will be out of there in a year they don't care about quality so in goes the DIY special POC faucet along with all the other cr*p materials and sub-standard workmanship that is covered with a coat of cheap paint. Looks good on the outside, POS on the inside. :eek:

[ToUtahNow]

BHD,

I believe you bring some valid points. I think it is hard to paint some of this stuff with too broad of a brush. If you ever needed advice here (not likely) I believe there would be no hesitation to help you out. You are highly respected here and we have a little history with you and know you are capable of accomplishing any project you need to do. However, what do you do with a guy whose first post ask what do you do when that thingy that is spraying hot water out of a pipe? I believe anyone who replies must take into consideration the skill level required and the consequence of a failed repair.

Mark

[toolaholic]

Master, I can't believe Terry used Your name . Guess I didn't know Him, as well as I thought I did! What the Hell ,NOW YOU'RE FAMOUS

[DuckButter]

BHD,

I believe you bring some valid points. I think it is hard to paint some of this stuff with too broad of a brush. If you ever needed advice here (not likely) I believe there would be no hesitation to help you out. You are highly respected here and we have a little history with you and know you are capable of accomplishing any project you need to do. However, what do you do with a guy whose first post ask what do you do when that thingy that is spraying hot water out of a pipe? I believe anyone who replies must take into consideration the skill level required and the consequence of a failed repair.

Mark
Worse yet, new poster with "GC" in his trade title asking if there's gonna be a problem with the 6" holes he drilled through the 8" floor joists on a bath remodel.

[DUNBAR]

Yah know....



by default, it's hard for me to give "bad" advice.


Do you think if we joined as someone other than plumbers.....and started spouting off unfit wisdom that we'd be allowed to continue?


Like instead of replacing a flapper, spending an atrocious 4.99, just put vaseline on the bottom side.


Suuuuuure. Nevermind that it's a petroleum distillate. It's suction baby! Suction! You'll get 3 more years out of that flapper using vaseline! Do it!

[BHD]

BHD,

I believe you bring some valid points. I think it is hard to paint some of this stuff with too broad of a brush. If you ever needed advice here (not likely) I believe there would be no hesitation to help you out. You are highly respected here and we have a little history with you and know you are capable of accomplishing any project you need to do. However, what do you do with a guy whose first post ask what do you do when that thingy that is spraying hot water out of a pipe? I believe anyone who replies must take into consideration the skill level required and the consequence of a failed repair.

Mark

Really I am not in disagreement,

I totally understand the problem, who do you help and who do you not. I know that by posting does not qualify them for anything.

I got a phone call to night about a job some one wanted help with, I spent more time talking safety and precautions than how to do the job. As if they were careless death was a real possibility.

[DUNBAR]

Time for IHOP pancakes!

[NHMaster3015]

Thanks BH, No one is ever going to put a total stop to hack plumbing, done either by diy'ers or for that matter licensed plumbers. My whole dissagreement is with plumbers willing to give step by step advice to a guy they now nothing about, have no real idea what his skills or intentions really are and whether or not he will actuall pull a permit or have the work inspected. This whole diy thing puts a much bigger burden on the inspectors both local and state. I see homeowners post elaborate piping diagrams all the time and want advice. On the face of it it seems pretty harmless but you and I both know that rarely does the drawing ever match the reality. Something always comes up. Mechanicals in the way, frameing that runs the wrong direction, masonary that needs cutting, you know, real world. When these things come up that's the kind of problems we have the experiance to deal with. How many diy guys have fallen in love with aav's because now they don't even have to think about proper venting (sadly some plumbers too) and sharkbites for quick and easy water piping. I agree with Duckbutter, It's only a matter of time before some diy'er get's into serious trouble and the lawsuits start to fly. I don't want to be on the recieving end.

[NHMaster3015]

Yah know....



by default, it's hard for me to give "bad" advice.


Do you think if we joined as someone other than plumbers.....and started spouting off unfit wisdom that we'd be allowed to continue?


Like instead of replacing a flapper, spending an atrocious 4.99, just put vaseline on the bottom side.


Suuuuuure. Nevermind that it's a petroleum distillate. It's suction baby! Suction! You'll get 3 more years out of that flapper using vaseline! Do it!

Wheel bearing grease lasts longer;)
God bless J.B. Weld and Duc Tape, AAV's and Sharkbites, Sheetrock screws and Silicone:mad:

ran into a leaking hi waste Saturday, Home owner tried to fix it with her hot glue gun.....Nice....:eek:

[DuckButter]

Maybe I did not make my position clear. I agree with you. I am saying that it would be good to petition the Master Plumber Association and push for tightening the laws to make the changes so NO ONE but a licensed plumber or electrician can do any work related to their respective trade can pull a permit.

Here, if an inspector finds unpermitted work has been done to a property (no matter how long ago or how many owners between then and now) they can cite you and have it corrected or removed and you could still pay a fine even though the work was done long before you bought the home. This could also be uncovered by a home inspection at time of sale. If the home inspector sees something that looks suspecious they might query the HO and ask who or when the work was done then research it to see if a permit was pulled.

I think the people who go around flipping houses are the biggest problem as they have no intention of living there so they are not worried about the quality of their work. Here in NJ a HO can do their own work, but needs a permit of course to be legit. Problem is the majority don't get permits unless they have to. Tough for an inspector to spot inside only work especially when its done mostly on weekends when he's not on the clock. Since they own the house they can skirt the licensing issue IF they turn less than three(? maybe two) homes a year. Since they know they will be out of there in a year they don't care about quality so in goes the DIY special POC faucet along with all the other cr*p materials and sub-standard workmanship that is covered with a coat of cheap paint. Looks good on the outside, POS on the inside. :eek:

Bob, your original post was clear...I just went on and on and on a lengthy reiteration of why I agreed.

[Ruudacguy]

There is an HVAC post today, where detailed info was given about resizing oil burner orifices... gives me chills.

Theres a big difference between posting a formula on sizing orifices, and providing detailed instructions on how to change them. JMO.

The guys that post entire piping diagrams, fully expecting a professional to thrash out his design and some even go so far as to provide a material list are the ones that aggravate me.

I've run across things like this in other forums. These guys are all about stroking their own ego's, and thats it.

I can sympathize with many homeowners who ask questions because so many of my competitors are untrained hacks. I feel bad for people who deal with some of my competitors and thats probably where some of my tolerance for DIY questions comes from.

Andy

[woodenstickers]

I wrote another thread about selling my building super a seesnake micro as he looked for a leak this weekend. He found the leak and then tried to get a plumber to come out. None were available in my area. So he got some "epoxy" and fixed the leak himself.

He is an electrician, but not much of a barn-burner at anything as far as I can tell. I have no idea how the leak ended up repaired or how long it will last. I know for certain, he would never go online and ask for tips on how to do the repair right, but in this case it might have been beneficial.

I'm sure you guys have all seen the commercials for that "super putty" or whatever its called with the yelling bearded spokesman who sells oxy-clean etc. He claims, for one, it will fix any leaks in pipes and there is no disclaimer on the commercial. And the other aspect of those house flipping shows and monster house shows and this old house and even HD commercials showing single moms with $800 saws is that aside from motivating people to think that they do all the stuff it gives an incomplete picture of what is entailed.

It ain't your guys job or obligation to give any advice, or to protect people from themselves by discouraging them, but I really wonder how yo can tread here. If the question comes up that has a homeowner about to get in over his head maybe gently stating that is more effective. If they are stubborn and set on doing it, you won't be able to beat sense into them over the internet anyway (I'm still against drilling for example :D), so what can you do? The people saying they are going to do it anyway, and maybe get worse advice or no advice are right.

As for me, I enjoy the fireworks when the mean ol plumbers get rowdy. It really has made me realize that all tradesmen should feel that sense of pride and elitism for having the skills and knowledge and ability to apply them that we do. One thing is for sure, you will never see me complain about paying a plumber after hanging around here.


Eli

[NorthernIllinoisPlumber]

LOL...I feel pride, but I am not mean.

[NHMaster3015]

[quote=woodenstickers;163026]I wrote another thread about selling my building super a seesnake micro as he looked for a leak this weekend. He found the leak and then tried to get a plumber to come out. None were available in my area. So he got some "epoxy" and fixed the leak himself.

He is an electrician, but not much of a barn-burner at anything as far as I can tell. I have no idea how the leak ended up repaired or how long it will last. I know for certain, he would never go online and ask for tips on how to do the repair right, but in this case it might have been beneficial.

I'm sure you guys have all seen the commercials for that "super putty" or whatever its called with the yelling bearded spokesman who sells oxy-clean etc. He claims, for one, it will fix any leaks in pipes and there is no disclaimer on the commercial. And the other aspect of those house flipping shows and monster house shows and this old house and even HD commercials showing single moms with $800 saws is that aside from motivating people to think that they do all the stuff it gives an incomplete picture of what is entailed.

It ain't your guys job or obligation to give any advice, or to protect people from themselves by discouraging them, but I really wonder how yo can tread here. If the question comes up that has a homeowner about to get in over his head maybe gently stating that is more effective. If they are stubborn and set on doing it, you won't be able to beat sense into them over the internet anyway (I'm still against drilling for example :D), so what can you do? The people saying they are going to do it anyway, and maybe get worse advice or no advice are right.

As for me, I enjoy the fireworks when the mean ol plumbers get rowdy. It really has made me realize that all tradesmen should feel that sense of pride and elitism for having the skills and knowledge and ability to apply them that we do. One thing is for sure, you will never see me complain about paying a plumber after hanging around here.


Still don't want to drill ey........:cool:

[VancouverPlumber]

Professionals do not give away free advice, amateurs do.There are many reasons for this:


You slaved for four years to get the apprenticeship.
You may not get all the information needed verbally, thus giving incorrect help.
Free help cheapens the trade and all the members.

Professionals understand what I am talking about. How many Doctors, Lawyers or Accountants will give free advice on the phone? If things go wrong they may be liable. I would not even do that for a friend because I know since they are not pros they could not possibly give me all the information or become instant pros after 10 minutes on the phone.

[MrsSeatDown]

How many Doctors, Lawyers or Accountants will give free advice on the phone?

My doctors, lawyer, and acct have all given me free advice over the phone:rolleyes:

[woodenstickers]

My doctors, lawyer, and acct have all given me free advice over the phone:rolleyes:

Mine too, but it was all relationship advice!:eek:

[MrsSeatDown]

Mine too, but it was all relationship advice!:eek:

I'm afraid to ask:eek:

[VancouverPlumber]

My doctors, lawyer, and acct have all given me free advice over the phone:rolleyes:

I'm referring to a stranger.

They are counting the clock and probably charging you later when you show up for taxes or for legal help. I was in a lawyers office one time and the phone range and she pulled the timer out of her desk and measured the conversation and then went to her computer. I would call that being billed later.

[MrsSeatDown]

I'm referring to a stranger.

They are counting the clock and probably charging you later when you show up for taxes or for legal help. I was in a lawyers office one time and the phone range and she pulled the timer out of her desk and measured the conversation and then went to her computer. I would call that being billed later.

Yes, in your case that is true. Mine don't do that though. I have known mine for a long time so I am sure that is why.

[DuckButter]

My doctors, lawyer, and acct have all given me free advice over the phone:rolleyes:

To remove tonsils?
To do a full years taxes?
To file a motion for a civil lawsuit with details on discovery process?


It's one thing to explain why I'd use a Delta faucet over a Glacier Bay (I shudder just typing it)...
It's another thing altogether to walk someone through a water heater installation.

[DuckButter]

Professionals do not give away free advice, amateurs do.There are many reasons for this:


You slaved for four years to get the apprenticeship.
You may not get all the information needed verbally, thus giving incorrect help.
Free help cheapens the trade and all the members.
Professionals understand what I am talking about. How many Doctors, Lawyers or Accountants will give free advice on the phone? If things go wrong they may be liable. I would not even do that for a friend because I know since they are not pros they could not possibly give me all the information or become instant pros after 10 minutes on the phone.
VERY well put.
Welcome to the forum, truly hope you stick around.

[VancouverPlumber]

It's one thing to explain why I'd use a Delta faucet over a Glacier Bay (I shudder just typing it)...
It's another thing altogether to walk someone through a water heater installation.[/quote]

I agree with you on this matter :).

[MrsSeatDown]

To remove tonsils?
To do a full years taxes?Almost. To do an amendment with lots adjustments
To file a motion for a civil lawsuit with details on discovery process?


It's one thing to explain why I'd use a Delta faucet over a Glacier Bay (I shudder just typing it)...
It's another thing altogether to walk someone through a water heater installation.
I agree. I also think my situation is not the typical;)

[VancouverPlumber]

Yes, in your case that is true. Mine don't do that though. I have known mine for a long time so I am sure that is why.

You sure about that? How would you possibly know if they are not accumulating every minute and charging you at a later date?

[MrsSeatDown]

You sure about that? How would you possibly know if they are not accumulating every minute and charging you at a later date?

I am positive. These people have also dealt with my family for generations, which is why I say my case is unusual. My doctor still makes house calls. . . .in Los Angeles!

[VancouverPlumber]

I would certainly give free advice to a contractor or any client that I have worked for in the past, that would be expected.

To go on the internet and start bragging for points and giving away trade secrets would be done by amateurs and poor businessmen.

[PLUMBER RICK]

You sure about that? How would you possibly know if they are not accumulating every minute and charging you at a later date?


i would know since i pay the accounting bills.

last i checked her brothers don't charge for legal and medical advise:D

except i need to replace a garden hose bibb for the b.i.l.:canoodle:


what i don't understand is this is an open and public forum.

if you don't want to participate in the discussion of helping the people, then don't. there are plenty of us here that enjoy the challenge and interaction with the majority of the people asking for help. sure there are some we will avoid, but for the most part, the questions get answered by the forum members.

i would rather assist a layman than try to make a plumber out of a wanna be plumber. some of the questions that get asked are so basic that it amazes me that we even discuss them in detail.

this forum has a pretty keen eye for knowing when to say no.

stick around and watch or participate. there are some amazing people here and they're not all tradesmen;)

rick.

[NHMaster3015]

It's not this forum that is the issue.

[VancouverPlumber]

It's not this forum that is the issue.

Exactly.

[toolaholic]

Hey Master ,Let's talk planes! Is that Your 150? Did some time in a 172. Worst student ever!
never got ticket

[ToUtahNow]

It's not this forum that is the issue.


Okay after all of the talk I thought I would go check out the other site. From what I can tell they did you a favor by giving you the boot and I believe you are the one taking the highroad. There is a lot to be said about people skills or lack there of.

Mark

[MrsSeatDown]

Okay after all of the talk I thought I would go check out the other site. From what I can tell they did you a favor by giving you the boot and I believe you are the one taking the highroad. There is a lot to be said about people skills or lack there of.

Mark

I did the same yesterday. I agree. Some of those people were scary:eek:

[DuckButter]

if you don't want to participate in the discussion of helping the people, then don't. there are plenty of us here that enjoy the challenge and interaction with the majority of the people asking for help. sure there are some we will avoid, but for the most part, the questions get answered by the forum members.

i would rather assist a layman than try to make a plumber out of a wanna be plumber. some of the questions that get asked are so basic that it amazes me that we even discuss them in detail.

this forum has a pretty keen eye for knowing when to say no.

stick around and watch or participate. there are some amazing people here and they're not all tradesmen;)

rick.

On another forum I belong to, the plumbers are notorious for pushing away DIY seekers.
The forum itself is specifically for contractors and very often newer members with "GC", or "Remodler" entered as their job title join the forum and start asking rediculous questions about plumbing.

One recent incident, a "remodeler" came back to the forum to rub it in our faces that he'd lied about having a licensed plumber and did the bath remodel himself to save money just to spite the plumbers that wouldn't give him info.

He was banned.

Rule of thumb there is it's open season on anyone who misrepresents themselves on the membership info..the forum specifically states it's for pro's only.
"Flippers", unlicensed hacks, and dishonest homeowners will very often misrepresent themselves to attempt to sneak free info.

The idea being that it's ironic so many of us lose business to these folks who will do things they shouldn't be touching in the first place, yet they hop online and expect us to teach them how.

The internet isn't a magnet for honest and upstanding behavior, very often it's thought of as a great way to anonymously sneak around and get great bargains or steal free info without getting caught.

Napster for example, when the rock band Metallica made a big stink over it, I thought they were being rediculous...turns out they were right.
New musicians wouldn't stand a chance to make it in a market where they couldn't sell a record.
It's the EXACT same in plumbing, the yellow pages just don't work now...more and more people look for plumbers or other services on the internet than ever before.

New plumbers don't stand a chance in a market where the average homeowner is tempted with DIY sites that are readily willing to offer the info of hard earned experience for free in the very same venue they are already looking for a plumber in.

Another way to put it, imagine having to compete with a plumber in your town who worked for free.
Established shops won't see this, at least not as much...but newer start-ups are being chiseled away with this as well as sleazy online lead companies, SEO companies that are almost all ineffective yet promise guys like me the world for the mere price of $1k, and yellow page companies that will lie cheat & steal to gain your trust and money.

I agree that there are legitimate reasons to look for DIY info, but very often it's a flipper telling you he's a poor homeowner, a landlord looking to cut corners on a rental, or handyman claiming to be a homeowner.

I'm not in the business of boosting someone else's profits to help them avoid paying someone like me, it's that simple.

There are legitimate questions, there are also states where a homeowner can pull his own permits, but if it's for a luxury item or a job intended to increase the home value...I just don't get why any plumber would sacrifice a potential job for a brother in his trade to help someone else make more money.

All for the sake of looking good in an internet forum.

[Plumbus]

I came to this forum, as well as the other one Duck is referring to for this very reasons he states. I did the advice thing. Why? Because it was the only way to communicate with other plumbers on line. On the advice sites an occasional DIYer would ask a question that would set off a cascade of responses, most of which were way over the head of the run of the mill citizen not involved in the plumbing trade. These were the threads I trolled for. Now I've found two sites specifically designed for us and I'm not planning on going back our industry's version of Dear Abbey, thank you. Now, if I could just find a site that gives out free electrical advice!

[NorthernIllinoisPlumber]

What is the other forum?

[Ruudacguy]

New plumbers don't stand a chance in a market where the average homeowner is tempted with DIY sites that are readily willing to offer the info of hard earned experience for free in the very same venue they are already looking for a plumber in.

I dont agree with this at all Duck, as you probably already know. My contention is that the number of people who visit the forums for DIY advice is so small, theres not one plumbing shop in the country thats going to be affected one bit. If any one plumber in the country thinks their business is dropping because of advice on internet forums, I think they better look closer to home for their reasoning.

There always has been and always will be DIY'ers. Nothing is going to change that. My dad was a DIY'er, or a hack as this forum would call him. He hacked alot of **** together theres no doubt about that. But I do remember everytime he would call someone to do something he would get totally screwed.

I am good friends with what I consider the best plumbing shop in my area. Everytime I am there they are taking calls and answering simple questions on the phone to avoid having to charge their customers for a service call. I am the same way. Maybe those customers should have gone to the internet to look for their answers instead of calling my friends shop. (i.e. your plumbing brothers)

Andy

[DuckButter]

Andy, Blue skies and green grass are nice...and I bet you disagree with me.

You need to look at the site and then tell me it won't effect the industry.

It's not just one site, type DIY, plumbing or any other relavant term in your browser and read up.

Page after page after page, hundreds of requests on any given day.

The traffic there makes this site look like a country club compared to grand central at mid afternoon.

It will affect my trade, the industry...not gonna put me out of work, no, but think about it.
When in the course of your life has so much free information ever been so readily available in such vast volume?

Yes, you know a shop owner that answers the occasional question for a job that might be a bit too small to justify charging someone for, I do it too, but this is an entirely different ballgame.

[JCsPlumbing]

The only question I have to Andy's statement is why did his father always get "screwed" when he called someone to do something he was unable too? What does "screwed" mean? Why did he feel he got "screwed"? If he had a longterm relationship with tradespeople maybe it wouldn't have happened. Maybe he called the cheapest person and they did a bad job. I don't know.

But you're both right in a way. Even with all of the DIY forums, I stay busy as ever. I think we all will if we follow the right paths.

On the other side, without the DIY forums, I might be busier. :eek:

Either way, the DIY forums are NOT going away and just like everything in the history of business... adjust, adapt, overcome.

J.C.

[spodelee]

Andy, Blue skies and green grass are nice...and I bet you disagree with me.

You need to look at the site and then tell me it won't effect the industry.

It's not just one site, type DIY, plumbing or any other relavant term in your browser and read up.

Page after page after page, hundreds of requests on any given day.

The traffic there makes this site look like a country club compared to grand central at mid afternoon.

It will affect my trade, the industry...not gonna put me out of work, no, but think about it.
When in the course of your life has so much free information ever been so readily available in such vast volume?

Yes, you know a shop owner that answers the occasional question for a job that might be a bit too small to justify charging someone for, I do it too, but this is an entirely different ballgame.

I agree but I also know there is nothing that can be done about it. The internet is permanently changing all of the trades, whether we like it or not. It has taken this long for the masses to realize stability and sophistication when utilizing the internet, and DIY will grow exponentially on the internet from this point forward.

All that we can really do is give advice where we feel appropriate so that we are giving as well as taking from the forum, try to be responsible by avoiding giving advice that could harm someone, and invest our energy into things that we can change.

[DuckButter]

I agree but I also know there is nothing that can be done about it. The internet is permanently changing all of the trades, whether we like it or not. It has taken this long for the masses to realize stability and sophistication when utilizing the internet, and DIY will grow exponentially on the internet from this point forward.

All that we can really do is give advice where we feel appropriate so that we are giving as well as taking from the forum, try to be responsible by avoiding giving advice that could harm someone, and invest our energy into things that we can change.

Thats it, I'm going back to college to get a degree in computer science so I can steal CPW's job and then strive for world dominance until I gain full control over the internet.:mad:

I say there are one of two things that can and will happen to change it.

Liability.
It's only a matter of time before someone gets cornered by an insurance co that figures out a home burnt down over a DIY project and the fella tries to finger a given forum for offering professional advice on doing it.

Legal
It's a matter of time before any given plumbing board member bumps into a thread offering dangerous advice to someone in his jurisdiction.

Don't forget, they said all these things about Napster too.

[spodelee]

Thats it, I'm going back to college to get a degree in computer science so I can steal CPW's job and then strive for world dominance until I gain full control over the internet.:mad:

I say there are one of two things that can and will happen to change it.

Liability.
It's only a matter of time before someone gets cornered by an insurance co that figures out a home burnt down over a DIY project and the fella tries to finger a given forum for offering professional advice on doing it.

Legal
It's a matter of time before any given plumbing board member bumps into a thread offering dangerous advice to someone in his jurisdiction.

Don't forget, they said all these things about Napster too.

I think you're too late. CPW already has a huge head start on you and he has already engaged in a contractual relationship with Dr. Evil to take over the world! :rotflmao:

[BHD]

Duckbutter, how does one "steal free info"? If it is free it not stealing is it?

"New plumbers don't stand a chance in a market where the average homeowner is tempted with DIY sites that are readily willing to offer the info of hard earned experience for free in the very same venue they are already looking for a plumber in."

A few years ago this was found at the local public library, in a odd looking device call a book, and back in that day the public bought the book even and one could use it for free, amazing concept. but you did have to return it in two weeks.

and before HD, and the other Box stores, it was call the local hard ware store. even the hard ware stores would give people tips on how to fix and do things,

The illustrations are out of a 1961 Popular Mechanics Book, and most in this book are article reprints from there magazine, and I doubt if you can read it but the illustration credit is from the "Department of Agriculture", even the Government is in on the DIY conspiracy, who knows may be they started it.


the thing is TIMES have changed and now you see people asking for help via the forum that you use, my guess is you did not frequent the library before the Internet and observe the DIY section, or book stores either.

yes I am sure people want it handed to them on a silver platter, many times, but the information in some form has usaly been available if one was willing to look.

The difference to day is now we live in an instant age, where one wants to come up with an idea or has a problem and want the answer in 20 Min's or less, and to run down to the local store and buy the parts and have it done before the week end is over.

and if you have a choice, who would you prefer to get advice from, some one who can answer your specific questions or a guide that gives one generalities,

Times are changing at lest the way one gets there information, and my guess is the business of plumbing is changing as well, I let you in on a secret it is changing every were, there is very little that is scared any more and there is not hardly any area of the the world that is not changing.

I read on here some thinking LAWS should be pased to make it against the law for home owners to work on there own houses, (that jsut could mean you as a home owner could be bared from working on your own house, regardless of who you are, would you like to have to hire another company and plumber to come work on your house because you own it?) I know that most of you live in areas where personal property rights are nearly the thing of the past, but why do you want to remove more of the few rights you currently have from your selves. If you push for the removal of the right of the home owner or property owner to work on his own property, where does it stop, plumbing, electrical, roofing, painting, flooring, may be he needs to hire some one to clean it, as well as that could be construed as a safety issues, where does it stop, where do the rights of property owners be infringed on.

one of the things that is happening is very similar to the automobile industry, for years and years they were on a roll, and could give there workers, (via unions), more and more and more, but now the auto manufacturers are going down the toilet, and they are breaking there agreements on pensions and other right and left, they can not afford the high cost of labor any more, and there looking for lower cost labor,

in the very post on Love's board the statement was made of the cost that would have been charged by a "pro", and that is part of why he chose to do it him self.
many times the cost of some thing is asked about, and many of you go ballistic when some asks is there a lower cost way of doing this, May be many of you walk around with an extra 10 to 20 grand in your hip pocket and do not have a clue what to do with it, but IN the world I live in most are living pay check to pay check, and up to there neck in debt, some times coming up with that money is not that easly, you may say who cares, well the person needing the job done cares, and if he thinks he is up to the task, he may try it on his own. and there are many other reason why one may want to do some thing besides cost, but I have seen words say basically "the customer doesnt have a clue on what some thing should cost", but in the same all most statement there were some that basically said "I will not even get out of bed for less than $1000 a day".

Not saying your not worth it, you may very well be worth it, but you may not be worth it to the customer.

And no one ever guarantee any one a job, I do not know how many people who go to collage and get degrees in some chosen field graduate and finally come to the realization that the school sold them a line on the job opportunities that were in that field, and some never do find a job or career in there chosen field.

[DuckButter]

Book?
Whats a book?

Now I have to seek control over these books as well in my ascension to world dominance!

BHD, I get your point, but when you ask a book why the solder didn't take despite the fact that you followed it's instructions, it doesn't answer back...er...not often.

[NorthernIllinoisPlumber]

People have been remodeling their own homes for centuries. Nothing new, only the delivery of the info/advice has changed. People can get lazy, they want it now. One huge problem I see is when someone crosses the line, a GC or the like, doing plumbing illegally, getting his info in a similar way. This is illegal and wrong. Only problem is how do you determine the homeowner from the GC online? Such sites will will be hit hard some day...litigation etc. This society is known as the "blame game" population. In Illinois, the state knickname is the "Land of lawsuits" not "Land of Lincoln."

[cpw]

I think you're too late. CPW already has a huge head start on you and he has already engaged in a contractual relationship with Dr. Evil to take over the world! :rotflmao:
Shhh. Don't tell anyone. Also remember, that Virtucon's ownership of starbucks is a secret.

DB, the software industry has probably changed much more than the plumbing industry; but I'm still not worried about my job. There is Open Source Software, actually much of what I am paid to right is released as OSS. There is also offshoring, but there is still plenty of good software development here [just like there is lots of offshore manufacturing, but there are still US manufacturing jobs].

[cpw]

nd before HD, and the other Box stores, it was call the local hard ware store. even the hard ware stores would give people tips on how to fix and do things,
Even now you get much better answers from your local plumbing supply house than HD. The only disadvantage is the hours.

I read on here some thinking LAWS should be pased to make it against the law for home owners to work on there own houses, (that jsut could mean you as a home owner could be bared from working on your own house, regardless of who you are, would you like to have to hire another company and plumber to come work on your house because you own it?)
I already live in such an area. :(

"the customer doesnt have a clue on what some thing should cost", but in the same all most statement there were some that basically said "I will not even get out of bed for less than $1000 a day".
The biggest contradiction here is that the plumbers will say "get 3 estimates to protect yourself", and then you have others saying "I don't want to pay for the gas to give you a free estimate, because I only have 1/3 of a chance at the job, and you'll go with the cheapest anyway."

[toolaholic]

BHD ,I see You're a farmer ,in addition to being a Contr. I have something to run by You.
Now just suppose, homeowners started to have little back Yard garden plots. I know this is a stretch, but it is possible! They could go to H.D. and get bad advice on planting,watering ect. NOW how would the Mass. AND NEW Hampsha Farmers FEEL!
Now You can see where Duck and Master are coming from Be Well Tool
Ps You sure epoxy won't work?????

[DuckButter]

People have been remodeling their own homes for centuries. Nothing new, only the delivery of the info/advice has changed. People can get lazy, they want it now. One huge problem I see is when someone crosses the line, a GC or the like, doing plumbing illegally, getting his info in a similar way. This is illegal and wrong. Only problem is how do you determine the homeowner from the GC online? Such sites will will be hit hard some day...litigation etc. This society is known as the "blame game" population. In Illinois, the state knickname is the "Land of lawsuits" not "Land of Lincoln."

Thats my BIGGEST gripe.

I think some here may either work for shops, or have established themselves to the point where they no longer have to pull in new business.
It's a whole new ballgame now for driving in new business.
The yellow pages are not what they used to be, people go online now for what they want.

Type either "plumbing" or "plumber" into your search browser, notice the sites that appear on the first page after the sponsored links.

There are generally more DIY sites on any search engines first page than plumbers, excluding the PPC sponsored links.

Even now you get much better answers from your local plumbing supply house than HD. The only disadvantage is the hours.


I already live in such an area. :(


The biggest contradiction here is that the plumbers will say "get 3 estimates to protect yourself", and then you have others saying "I don't want to pay for the gas to give you a free estimate, because I only have 1/3 of a chance at the job, and you'll go with the cheapest anyway."

The difference is that some homeowners just seem to want to know what it "might" cost if they wanted to go forward with a project, some are looking for the lowest price they can get irregardless.
(Thank you Priceline, Cheaphotels.com and Lending tree for conditioning everyone to seek the cheapest online deals and have professionals compete against eachother to replace a toilet flapper)

Not alotta fun driving around at $4 a gallon knowing if your price isn't the lowest you're paying for nothing.
At least hearing them say they won't pay the fee filters them out of the equation, saving time & gas.

These folks have the ever present availability of free advice on how to do it themselves right at their fingertips, with eager pro's competing with eachother for pats on the back on any of dozens of sites located right on the very same page they found your website or phone number on.

Charles, I wouldn't say so much, but many of the homes I visited in the past are certainlly not people who are living in squalor.

One home in particular I'd guess valued at $3 mil, the fella had just had copper gutters installed and he complained I was too high to run a gas line to his third floor for a dryer...my price was already low.