Bad product designs

[HouseOfAtlas]

I'm sure we have all run across a product that we thought was horribly designed. So, let's hear about them :D

We took out two AS Cadets and replaced them with Kohler Cimmerons since they wouldn't flush. Also, we installed a Cadet and the thing seemed like it barely flushed when the toilet we just pulled out was working fine (the customer wanted to upgrade).

C'mon, just look at this trap:

http://terrylove.com/wc/as/newcadet.jpg

There are pictures of different Cadets with a smoother "flowing" trap on the internet, but I have yet to see one. Weird.

[plumberjr]

i cant believe you like kohler----good luck getting their CUSTOM parts--
order today and see them in 2 months---i refuse to install or repair kohler --they are the worst company to deal with, as usually you call and someone answers that does not speak good english and they never give you a name and if u ask for it they tell u that u cant reach them, its random answering and someone else picks up and then by the end of your call, you told the same story 7 times--rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

i like gerber and mansfield toilets--i never have issues, i especially like the p/a toilets as they have great warranties and if you ever call gerber, they send out all new parts without questions---free

i hate kohler
i needed 2 king george kohler shower mixer caps for a customers 2 units that had a bad leak--kohler factory sent the wrong ones 2 x and i even gave pics and #'s--1st set arrived in 4 weeks--final set arrived 8 weeks after 1st call
i hate kohler:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad :

[plumberjr]

looks like fun for my k-6 auger---cant wait

[DuckButter]

I've been on a tangent with Cimaron & Drake.
Installed a one piece Cimaron today and I gotta come clean...
The flush is fast, but the bowl doesn't get rinsed very well...I dunno, the thing wasn't cheap and the customer didn't look very happy when he noticed it.

[MrsSeatDown]

The flush is fast, but the bowl doesn't get rinsed very well...I dunno, the thing wasn't cheap and the customer didn't look very happy when he noticed it.

How were you able to tell with just a test flush?

[DUNBAR]

I've been on a tangent with Cimaron & Drake.
Installed a one piece Cimaron today and I gotta come clean...
The flush is fast, but the bowl doesn't get rinsed very well...I dunno, the thing wasn't cheap and the customer didn't look very happy when he noticed it.



Ahh that's old news on the cimmarron. Notorious for bad bowl flush/rinse.


Tell the guy to eat a block of cheese at bedtime every time and that problem will be solved instantly in regards to loose bowels.

[DuckButter]

Ahh that's old news on the cimmarron. Notorious for bad bowl flush/rinse.


Tell the guy to eat a block of cheese at bedtime every time and that problem will be solved instantly in regards to loose bowels.

:rotflmao1::rotflmao1::rotflmao1::rotflmao1:

[DuckButter]

How were you able to tell with just a test flush?

Joey, it's not rocket science!

Just observe the bowl as it flushes...you can easily watch the water as it runs down in patches.
No swirling, no coverage, just isolated streams that don't completely cover the bowl surface.
It's very fast with the large flapper, but I have to wonder if maybe too fast is really a good thing.
Starting to think these toilets are a fad.
Dunbars demented reply makes the point clear...you'll need a toilet brush on hand.

[MrsSeatDown]

Joey, it's not rocket science!

Just observe the bowl as it flushes...you can easily watch the water as it runs down in patches.
No swirling, no coverage, just isolated streams that don't completely cover the bowl surface.
It's very fast with the large flapper, but I have to wonder if maybe too fast is really a good thing.
Starting to think these toilets are a fad.
Dunbars demented reply makes the point clear...you'll need a toilet brush on hand.

Thanks. This is what happens when you sit and flush as oppose to stand and watch as you flush. You become an expert flusher:nyaa-nyaa4:

[gear junkie]

Quest pipe, watts floodsafe risers, general's drophead toilet auger, and I'll think of some more later.

[cpw]

Tell the guy to eat a block of cheese at bedtime every time and that problem will be solved instantly in regards to loose bowels.
And who says you can't get free medical advise on the internet. :D

[NHMaster3015]

Two words: WATERLESS URINALS or as I like to call em, Wall Hung Stink Pots.

[Plumbus]

European shower inwalls that have to be roughed in so they stick out of the sheetrock.
Too many plastic parts where brass would be better.
Tankless water heaters with inlet screens that foul way too easily.
More to follow.

[plumberscrack]

American Standard Vent-Away

Kohler San Rafael/Rialto ballcock

American Standard Champion Flushvalve

Porcher L'Expression One Piece Toilet (since when do the French fancy themselves as hygiene engineers?)

Volkswagen Jetta without a key entry on passenger side

Bradley Washfountains
---------------------------------------------------------------
I love my drophead closet auger

[DuckButter]

Kohler widespreads.
trying to tighten the spout tee assmebly as well as the comp. hoses under a pedastil when a basin wrench is too big to grab them and your fingers ain't gonna fit without twisting the spouts position above, then hoping they're tight enough as you open the stops.

[Service Guy]

American Standard Vent-Away


All time winner of retarded plumbing design.

[Plumbus]

Kohler widespreads.
trying to tighten the spout tee assmebly as well as the comp. hoses under a pedastil when a basin wrench is too big to grab them and your fingers ain't gonna fit without twisting the spouts position above, then hoping they're tight enough as you open the stops.

Don't you assemble the faucet before you set the bowl on the wall, Duck? I even put the j-bend on the tailpiece before I set the bowl. That way I don't have to fight the pedestal trying to tighten the j-bend top nut. A friend of mine uses a pair of channellocks with the handles cut off to reach into such tight places. I prefer preassembly.

[DuckButter]

Don't you assemble the faucet before you set the bowl on the wall, Duck? I even put the j-bend on the tailpiece before I set the bowl. That way I don't have to fight the pedestal trying to tighten the j-bend top nut. A friend of mine uses a pair of channellocks with the handles cut off to reach into such tight places. I prefer preassembly.

I'm referring to replacements.
And the thought has crossed my mind to just disemble the whole pedastil, it probably takes the same amount of time but caulked lines can rip paint & drywall on a pedastil.

[boillerman]

I predict at least 300 posts for this thread. Could probably come up with half of them myself but I'm busy.

[plumberjr]

i hate pullout kitchen faucets and kohler shower valves
i also hate kohler customer service
and kohlers unhelpful website
and kohler replacement parts

HERES AN IDEA TO MAKE KOHLER RICH----WHEN SOMEONE CALLS FOR REPLACEMENT PARTS, SEND A NEW MOEN FIXTURE--IF THEY FAUCET PARTS, SEND A NEW MOEN FAUCET--SHOW VALVE PARTS, SEND A MOENTROL---TOILET PARTS, SEND A GERBER TOILET

I HATE KOHLER

[Plumbus]

I'd hate Kohler, too. But, the parts distributor for my neck of the woods is in my town and he's a friend, in fact, our companies have been friends for over 50 years. :thumbup:

[Service Guy]

I love Kohler.:D
All the fixtures in my house are Kohler. They are easy to get parts for around here. Beautifully designed American fixtures, the best. Moen, delta, price pfister, etc. all look like cheap junk compared to designer Kohler fixtures.:nyaa-nyaa4:

[Service Guy]

This is my all-time favorite pedestal. Memoirs.

http://1902victorian.com/Bathrooms/kohler_memoirs.jpg

I also have the Memoirs toilets...I love the square tank-lid and square base. I picked these fixtures out long before I ever owned my first house...and of course bought an installed them immediately.

https://www.kitchenandpantry.com/upload/ProductImages/KOH-Memoirs-K-3451-96-full.jpg

[plumberjr]

if u like kohler, you must not have much of it in ur area--here its junk depot's biggest seller(cheap $ and cheap quality)--but thats my opinion--if u have good luck getting parts, please pm me ur dealer for them-- the supplier out here carries kohler, but knows nothing about it--thats the #1 problem

and for moen---the factory is right down the street and the rep is excellent--also moen has some very nice designer products too--much higher quality than kohler--oh-and it lasts a lot longer and moen has better warranty
;););)---moen=:love2:------kohler=:eek:

atleast someone has luck with it

[plumberjr]

also i think its a sin for a plumber to say price pfister or glacier bay:D:D:D:D:D

[Service Guy]

I have been installing Kohler since I think before the big box stores... I have yet to see any american company that makes anything at their quality.

Moen, really? Never seen anything very 'upscale' by Moen. Most of their stuff is joe average in quality. Though you are right, Moen (and delta) are really service-friendly easy to get parts, etc. They don't have nearly as many upscale design choices though.

[Service Guy]

if u like kohler, you must not have much of it in ur area--here its junk depot's biggest seller(cheap $ and cheap quality)
No offense, but it seems you don't know very much about plumbing fixtures. How long have you been plumbing?

Kohler cheap? Not for an american company.

This simple sink by Kohler retails for $2,130.50
http://www.us.kohler.com/onlinecatalog/125x160/ccc20506.jpg

[Service Guy]

Of course, if you really want upscale, then you have to go to Germany (kind of like cars).

Dornbracht. (http://www.dornbracht.com/en/) Insane stuff.
http://www.dornbracht.com/media/md4655_210.jpg

[JCsPlumbing]

I'm not completely anti Kohler or anybody....yet. I do run into the same problems as plumberjr. with Kohler. (See Thread-Kohler Sucks).

This is what I've seen:

In some areas good plumbers hate Moen-Love Kohler.
In some areas good plumbers hate Delta-Love Price Pfister.
In some areas good plumbers hate Kohler-Love Moen.
On and on and on.

I like the Kohler designs but I don't like having to repair something older where parts aren't available locally.

If you ever do a new bathroom with Kohler specd. special orders get ready for some frustration in my multiple experiences.

I've had the best experiences with Moens' customer service and parts. But it's not promoted or installed much here. They offer a full range from budget to custom like almost all brands now.

Delta and Kohler dominate my area. Their equal in my opinion with neither really overwhelming me.

I've done Grohe and Hansgrohe that worked well when installed/adjusted correctly. But they also have some things I don't like either. :rolleyes:

Guess there's no perfect fixture. :)

J.C.

[Service Guy]

I like the Kohler designs but I don't like having to repair something older where parts aren't available locally.


True, Kohler parts aren't near as common and easy to get as Delta for example. I think every hardware store in the country carries delta springs and washers.

[plumberjr]

serviceguy must not have moens high-end catalog--just as pricey and they even have some of the german looking stuff--ive done my time plumbing,and as stated earlier, its very hard to get kohler parts in this area--they do have nice designs, as all do--its just not worth the headache, knowing ill have to service it someday and parts aquisition is a nightmare--everyone has a choice and mine is not kohler-
and i started working in the field at 15 years old installing all underground for new commercial and residential:p:p:p:D:D

[plumberjr]

also if u would pay 2 grand for that sink, you are crazy

[Service Guy]

Actually I have seen some 'high-end' Moen stuff. The customer remodeled her bathroom for a $20,000 or so. The plumber talked her into Moen fixtures. The stuff looked kind of fancy, but 'cheap' quality to me. She hated it, ripped it all out a few years later and chose Grohe fixtures instead.

[Masterplumb]

I am not a big fan of Kohler. I think their stuff is just o.k. I have had way to many issues with their mixing valves especially the 3/4 valve which most supply houses here push on the homeowners. Right out of the box I've had leakers. Ever see the cost of a replacement 3/4 mixing valve cartridge. Way too expensive for a Kohler part. Speaking of Kohler parts they have way too many different cartridges.

[Service Guy]

I really don't care either way actually. As many of my friends here know....I LOVE playing devil's advocate. (especially in the political threads). :grin-devilish: I just thought I'd offer an alternative view to all the Kohler bashing, the other brands are really no different imo.

[JCsPlumbing]

Right Master! Where Delta and Moen seem to have built fixture around their internal design. Kohler seems to have designed fixtures then multiple cartridges to go in them.

But this is not just a bad plumbing design thread so......

I don't like the super sensitive EGR systems on almost all vehicles now that will activat the check engine light with the vehicle running fine.

J.C.

[plumberjr]

agree about cartridges:eek::eek:

[Service Guy]

also if u would pay 2 grand for that sink, you are crazy

Why is that? 2 grand is pocket change for some people.

[Herk]

Why is that? 2 grand is pocket change for some people.

That doesn't make it sane.

I've had far too much trouble with Kohler products. Many years ago I worked plumbing a housing tract and the general was supplying all the materials. (He had a plumbing contractor's license from back in the days when you could just buy one.) He was supplying Kohler tub valves. These were the ones with the rubber sleeve and plastic finger - anybody remember those? I think the replacement parts are usually listed as Kohler/Bradley.

About one out of three of them leaked upon installation. Usually, it was a manufacturing defect involving a bit of SS mesh stuck through a rubber gasket. I switched him to the old Moen - the one before the Posi-Temp and balanced valves - and had no more problems.

I just think that Kohler is poorly designed. I could get more specific on any number of their stems and other parts. Seeing all those kitchen faucets with soap eating away at the plastic base should turn anyone off. Of course, Moen makes 'em like that, too.

[JCsPlumbing]

You are such a good business person that you could fill that sink with popcorn! :bow-down:.

J.C.

[Service Guy]

You are such a good business person that you could fill that sink with popcorn! :bow-down:.

J.C.

:lol:
No, not really. Maybe someday.


Its like art. So people who like art and pay thousands for it are 'not sane'? I disagree. If I want that particular sink-art in my bathroom and I have the money to buy it....whats 'insane' about that?:confused:

[JCsPlumbing]

True dat, Carl. There's a reason for the budget to custom line. Right?
They sell every Ferrari they build? Right?

Like plumbing of dreams, "If you buy it, I will come....and install it.":eek::D

J.C.

[DuckButter]

Hell, if you want awkward, fancy and overpriced crap...cut out the small talk and get a Pegasus, it ensures future service work...in the almost immediate future.

I used to badmouth Price Pfister too.

I had a homeowner that was fussy about what they wanted a while back, finally after going back and forth with him over what faucets he liked, I simply gave up trying and told him to pick up his own.
I told him that no matter what, don't get a Glacier bay (he was fussy, so that wasn't likely), don't get a Pegasus, don't get a Price Pfister.

He forgot the last part and got Price Pfister.

I have to admit, I liked the faucet.
He got a higher end Pfister, I was more accustomed to their low end crap from doing new construction.

JCplumbing is correct, many of the assumptions made on names are often superstition.
Though I do like some Kohler products, I will say I agree that they definitely tend to overcomplicate things and make too many parts as well as skip on common sense when it comes to the installers perspective.
They seem to pick form over function, and I often wonder if the engineers think they fascinate plumbers by making them complicated.

[Service Guy]

I just realized why defending Kohler on this site feels like defending Obama in the political threads, they have something in common...

...sure, they look nice in the media photos and can be quite fancy sounding, but most people here feel that both Kohler and Obama are impractical and over-priced!:D

[HouseOfAtlas]

looks like fun for my k-6 auger---cant wait

We have a general drop head auger and couldn't get through, no matter how soft we turned the handle or how "precise" we were trying to get around the trap (probably something stuck in there, though). In my van, I have a K6, so maybe it's better :D

[HouseOfAtlas]

also i think its a sin for a plumber to say price pfister or glacier bay:D:D:D:D:D

LOL! Ugh! I can't stand those two brands either.

I forgot to mention American Standard's actuators. Those suck, too!

[gear junkie]

We have a general drop head auger and couldn't get through, no matter how soft we turned the handle or how "precise" we were trying to get around the trap (probably something stuck in there, though). In my van, I have a K6, so maybe it's better :D
The drop head auger is crap. Get the 6' regular one.

[HouseOfAtlas]

The drop head auger is crap. Get the 6' regular one.

We used to have that one but switched to the drop head because the regular one was old and finally fell apart I think (I don't remember, it was a while ago). We decided to get a drop head because it just seems logical that it might do a better job (but maybe not???)

Maybe we should get the regular one and do a comparison and see which is better? :D

[PLUMBER RICK]

well if you haven't heard me say it a dozen+ times.

kohler sucks. my biggest complaint is their line of toilets and parts.

don't get me started on their toilet flappers and ballcocks.

how about those 1 pc. pressure flush toilets they recalled:eek:

but of course their pop up tub stoppers with the big corkscrew spring is a joke. especially the one where the trip lever plate covers the screws once you install it. either you need to peel off the plate, pull the hinge pin or work a miracle with a screwdriver.

truthfully price pfister is not bad. it's very common here as the factory is in the l.a. area.

the biggest complaint was the "hydro seal" stems they came out with. now it's been replaced with ceramic. in fact a very cleaver design that's reversible hot or cold.

price pfister is like general motors. you can get a standard trim level chevy or move up to the cadillac trim level.


plus they answer their phones and send free replacement parts.

rick.

[boillerman]

You can't go to the wholesalers (at least around here) and get stems or parts for PP. About the only place you can walk in and get them is my old employer, which means I talk to 10 different people about how busy or not we all are and you know the drill. I know they sell a ton of those little ceramic stems for the two handle faucets. I probably should keep some on my truck, but I don't have that many customers that buy their own, and I always tell them to avoid those when they do. I'm with you all on Kohler, with the exception maybe of their basic (is it the Wellworth?) toilet. I like that one. The one piece silent flush was nice too.

The one I hate is Zurn. Why put a copy of something else out? And if you are going to do that, at least make it work. I can't tell you how many times I've thrown Sloan parts into Zurn valves to get them to work.