Water Pressure/Flow Problem

[Puglia]

In Jan 2006 we moved into a newly contructed house. Ever since we moved in the water flow decreased dramitically whenever multiple faucets/showers are in use. Also, when using the outside hose bib the flow is strong for 20-30 seconds then drops off. It's at the point I can't even wash my car. It's finally on my nerves!

I checked with the Water Company who mentioned we have extremely high water pressure of 145 psi at the main. The plumber did install a PRV after the Supply line enters the house. Since the house sits 30 yards back from the road we have a meter pit near the road. Should the PRV have been installed in the meter pit prior to the meter?

I checked the pressure at a hose bib and the static pressure is 35-40 psi. However, when I turn on the kitched faucet the pressure drops to 20 psi. When I checked pressure over a 48 hour period it did spike at 50 psi. Should I adjust the PRV which claims to have a factory setting of 50 psi??

Any ideas???? I'm really hoping I don't have to dig up the supply line.....

[stokefire7]

pex?

[Puglia]

No Pex, It's some type of rigid plastic pipe. 3/4 piping for the supply line with 3/4 continued thru the visible plumbing in the basement. The Supply line from the meter is a black plastic pipe.

Code for new construction in my township requires a fire sprinkler system. I had to have a separate meter installed for the sprinkler as well. I shut off the fire sprinkler system with no change to regular water flow.

[Puglia]

Here's some more information if it helps.

I ran both the tub in both the Master and Guest bath as I'm told they typically are not restricted. Both faucets only got slight less than 2 GPM.

The Showers which are designed for 2.5 gpm only go 1.5 gpm if I only ran one. Try to run both at the same time on the Master shower slows to a trickle.

[toolaholic]

Red flag 3/4" service AND FIRE SPRINKLER ????? That would be at least 1 1/4" service
here!! Soo, everything That plumber did is suspect " As it starts,so it goes "
My in laws lived in rural Penn. Handy Men do way too much skilled work in that area.
A real plumber needs to check out Your plumbing

[Puglia]

The 3/4" Supply line is for the house plumbing only.

The Fire sprinkler system has it's own 1 1/2 Copper Supply line.

Two meters and separate supply lines for both systems.

[PLUMBER RICK]

In Jan 2006 we moved into a newly contructed house. Ever since we moved in the water flow decreased dramitically whenever multiple faucets/showers are in use. Also, when using the outside hose bib the flow is strong for 20-30 seconds then drops off. It's at the point I can't even wash my car. It's finally on my nerves!

I checked with the Water Company who mentioned we have extremely high water pressure of 145 psi at the main. The plumber did install a PRV after the Supply line enters the house. Since the house sits 30 yards back from the road we have a meter pit near the road. Should the PRV have been installed in the meter pit prior to the meter?

I checked the pressure at a hose bib and the static pressure is 35-40 psi. However, when I turn on the kitched faucet the pressure drops to 20 psi. When I checked pressure over a 48 hour period it did spike at 50 psi. Should I adjust the PRV which claims to have a factory setting of 50 psi??

Any ideas???? I'm really hoping I don't have to dig up the supply line.....

out here we always have the regulators installed after the water meter and next to the house where it enters.

you need to do a couple of test.

is there a way to measure the high pressure before the regulator?

is it possible to flow test the line prior or without a regulator?

it sounds like your regulator is set too low and it has a big drop off.

it's also possible that the regulator is restricted in the strainer creating the large drop off.

please list the size, brand, and location of the regulator.

some pictures would be great as it will take some guess work out of the equation.

rick.

[plumberjr]

you have to have a fire sprinkler in a residential home????????--how big is the house---i have never seen fire systems in residential---little overkill

[plumberjr]

u have regulator problems--turn it up or clean the screen

[Puglia]

you have to have a fire sprinkler in a residential home????????--how big is the house---i have never seen fire systems in residential---little overkill

I totally agree!!!! We have township supervisors with too much time on their hands. It's a 3,000 sqf house but definitely not worth the expense. Plus I already had one leak in the system.

[Service Guy]

In Jan 2006 we moved into a newly contructed house. Ever since we moved in the water flow decreased dramitically whenever multiple faucets/showers are in use. Also, when using the outside hose bib the flow is strong for 20-30 seconds then drops off. It's at the point I can't even wash my car. It's finally on my nerves!

I checked with the Water Company who mentioned we have extremely high water pressure of 145 psi at the main. The plumber did install a PRV after the Supply line enters the house. Since the house sits 30 yards back from the road we have a meter pit near the road. Should the PRV have been installed in the meter pit prior to the meter?

I checked the pressure at a hose bib and the static pressure is 35-40 psi. However, when I turn on the kitched faucet the pressure drops to 20 psi. When I checked pressure over a 48 hour period it did spike at 50 psi. Should I adjust the PRV which claims to have a factory setting of 50 psi??

Any ideas???? I'm really hoping I don't have to dig up the supply line.....

There is definitely flow-restriction somewhere,
most likely the pressure regulator needs to be replaced (or some other valve is restricting the flow).

[plumberjr]

your local law sure does like making enemies,huh---thats a large, unnecessary expense----honestly,please tell your city name and state, i want to do some research on why residential homes have fire systems--after ur post earlier, i happened to get called to our local firestation and i asked of this and they said i was misstaken---i explained and they said--thats a good thing, but the enforcers probably are ego freaks on a powertrip------why go above plumbing standards??????feel bad 4 ya----do you have to have it tested ever or is this limited fire with under 20 heads????did they put backflows on both lines also to be tested each year??????sounds like a possible dedicated fire main with a dedicated domestic main

sorry about all the questions, just amazed they go that far---tooooo overkill
did they also require a 200 ft deep tornado shelter with running water???

[PLUMBER RICK]

fire sprinkler are nothing new around here.

private residential homes have required them for a number of years in both beverly hills and culver city (home of sony studios) and los angeles.

you don't even have to be in a hillside community.

out here it's part of the domestic meter. installed prior to the main house shut off and typically only a check valve was required. there is a flow switch and usually a tamper switch, along with an alarm bell.

now with cpvc fire sprinkler pipe, the cost is way down. plus your insurance bill is much less.

rick.

[plumberjr]

i believe in copper plumbing only--i would never ever use plastic in a home--especially on fire---i giant hotel was built here 2 years ago--opened up and business was good-until last march--fire system was all sch.80 cpvc-at the 1st annual testing, the guys testing the standpipe pressurized to 250 lbs with the fire chief---within 10 minutes the standpipe blewapart in 2 spots--causing pretty good damage,as walls and rooms had to be torn apart to find breaks--after investigating, it was found that pipe had blown apart between floors--not at a fitting, but at pipe itself---now would steel pipe do that??????NO WAY

the moral of my story is i know copper is time tested and i would never sacrifice quality install for cheap install--id rather not do it if that is what is wanted--i understand the economy sux and there are lots of real lowbidding hacks,,but i can leave a job after propressing or soldering copper and know i wont have to return for faulty pipe--i sleep real good at night---as i said, i use only copper and wont install plastic or poly mains in a house or building- and i have a pretty high retaining rate on my customers---now for outside irrigation--different story

[glkearns]

. plus your insurance bill is much less.

rick.

My house has sprinklers, and according to my ins. guy it is kind of a double edge sword. On one hand your insurance is reduced (fire) on the other hand the water damage caused by the Sprinkler going off raises it up some. His example to me was a small fire in an upstairs bedroom 1 head goes off, and by the time the water is shut off the water has flooded the entire downstairs, and much of the upstairs floor...Our savings with the sprinklers was/is minimal. I got more of a discount for the EQ valve that I installed.

Greg

[The Wood Meister]

Parts of Phoenix AZ have residential fire sprinkler codes now too. EVERY new home from about 5 years back built in Scottsdale have sprinkler systems.


On the pressure regulator, I have one on my house, it's set at 70 pounds. We had over 120 at the meter. I can run 12 rotor sprinkler heads in my front yard, do laundry AND take a nice shower, all at the same time.

[toolaholic]

Plumberjr , You need to do a little traveling. It's a big country. Many homes [newer ones in Ca., have them] When We add the third story, on a remodel , sprinklers are then mandatory in our county. You can't assume, what happens in Your little Town, has an impact on the whole country! All the time, plumbers back East, preach that their codes and ways, rule the entire country. Maybe they wish it was so. In reality it doesn't. As You just discovered today.
Be well Tool

[Puglia]

your local law sure does like making enemies,huh---thats a large, unnecessary expense----honestly,please tell your city name and state, i want to do some research on why residential homes have fire systems--after ur post earlier, i happened to get called to our local firestation and i asked of this and they said i was misstaken---i explained and they said--thats a good thing, but the enforcers probably are ego freaks on a powertrip------why go above plumbing standards??????feel bad 4 ya----do you have to have it tested ever or is this limited fire with under 20 heads????did they put backflows on both lines also to be tested each year??????sounds like a possible dedicated fire main with a dedicated domestic main

sorry about all the questions, just amazed they go that far---tooooo overkill
did they also require a 200 ft deep tornado shelter with running water???

I'm in King of Prussia, PA the governing body is Upper Merion Township. I'm not aware of any yearly certifications required but I probably have a fine coming in the mail. Below is the link to the Code Book.
http://www.e-codes.generalcode.com/codebook_frameset.asp?ep=fs&t=ws&cb=0975_A

[plumberjr]

i can understand someone wanting a fire system in their home, and thats fine--but local code making homes have it?? to me its too much--whats next, you have to have a tornado shelter?? fire systems are very smart, what i am saying is that if i want to build a 5000 sq foot home on my property, i should be able to say i do or dont want to have a fire system--more water damage possible, more maintenance possible and a lot more of a expense

fire systems are very smart and should be in every commercial building, but residential,that should be up to the homeowner:in my opinion--if u want fire protection, great;if not, dont whine when it burns

i have this kind of opinion because i dont have fire lines in homes here and dont think it will happen any time soon--just seems like we are told we have to do everything a certain way--wheres the freedom---yes they protect the owner, but what if the owner doesnt want the protection???i guess i could keep yapping , but im not gonna make the code change

[PLUMBER RICK]

fire sprinklers are being phased into new homes and large remodels.

just like low flow toilets are the standard. we have to swap to low flow prior to the close of escrow out here.

we have to install sesimic gas shut off valves for any work/ project beyond $10,000 or prior to the close of escrow.

and when was the last time you purchased a new vehicle without an airbag:confused:

rick.

[drtyhands]

Plumberjr,
The 24 high rise I'm working on and the taller one going up down the street are both plastic/steel hybrid systems,anyting 2-1/2 and smaller is plastic.These are being constructed as multi million dollar condo's for sale(big thing these days)."Any structure where persons reside will have fire sprinklers" is enforced in one city of our county,no matter the size.I can appreciate your distate for plastic,I have the same.Unfortunately copper has become an unreasonable option.PM Aaron91 and ask him how much a stick of 8" is going for these days:eek:

[NHMaster3015]

We have several communities in our area where sprinkler systems are required for new housing and have been for 30 years or so. Most are piped with blazemaster pvc which has it's good and bad points but it's been in service for a long time with no real product problems. We have currrently been using Wirsbo's new sprinkler system with good results.

I applaud all you'se guy's still piping with copper. If you can get the customer to pay twice as much than by all means go for it. As for copper being a superior product all I have to say is High or Low PH and that pretty much sums up the argument for pex. Copper is not a lifetime product. It can and will be erroded over time by varying water conditions as well as erosion form water friction. It is suceptable to exterior corrosion as well. In earthquake country I'm surprised it's allowed to be used at all, considering pex is flexible and far less likley to rupture. In my city we probably average 3 to 4 copper pipe repairs a week due to pin holeing and fitting corrosion. I doubt we do 2 pex repairs in a year.

[DuckButter]

Copper is the preferred "medium" in service, not practical to purchase brass adapters for shower valve replacements or repair work.

Add to the fact that you now wind up with a whole new set of fittings to inventory, not worth the trouble.

[wrench spinner]

Sprinkler systems are required in MANY MANY new communities through out the county where the public water system does not have the capacity to provide hydrants for fire protection and where in the new developments the houses are close together. In a new subdivision NFPA requires if the houses are closer than 25' apart the buildings be sprinklered, residential or not.

[plumberjr]

remember when pb was the next best thing??look at it now--garbage

here is what i meant: i prefer copper
--copper looks better and IS stronger
---once i press or solder, i can rest assured its not gonna leak
---copper is time tested much longer than others
-- i am a serviceplumber/ manager, not a new construction plumber or remodeler which means i see more copper lines than anything else,so i like it all to look the same
--- i have no real problem with pvc --it works, i just trust copper inside over anything else
--i choose not to stock pex in my truck as theres not much around and i dont care for it

[Puglia]

I finally had the time to get back to this problem. I tried adjusting the PRV in the basement. There was no change in pressure regardless of how much I adjusted the screw. (I did make sure to release the set screw prior to adjusting). At this point I thought the PRV needed to be replaced.

Before I called a plumber I opened the meter pit to verify the valves were open all the way based on some of your suggestion, they were fully open. Then I noticed another pressure relief value prior to the meter. I wasn't able to check the pressure between the meter and the PRV in the basement but I thought I adjust the meter pit PRV anyway. I turned the pressure up all the way, assumming this will be 75 psi that the PRV lists as the maximum pressure.

The pressure at the hose bib is now 60 psi. Up from the initial pressure of 35-40 psi. I can now run two showers with no noticible decrease in pressure. I am now happy with the water flow. Does anyone see any issues with my solution? I'm planning to monitor water pressure the next few day to ensure it's doesn't go above 60 psi.:)

[NHMaster3015]

here is what i meant: i prefer copper
--copper looks better and IS stronger
---once i press or solder, i can rest assured its not gonna leak
---copper is time tested much longer than others
-- i am a serviceplumber/ manager, not a new construction plumber or remodeler which means i see more copper lines than anything else,so i like it all to look the same
--- i have no real problem with pvc --it works, i just trust copper inside over anything else
--i choose not to stock pex in my truck as theres not much around and i dont care for it

Copper is stronger how? As in, you can hang stuff in the basement on it? How strong does water pipe have to be? It's purpose is to convey water, not support things. In earthquake country copper is most definatly not stronger. It breaks where pex flexes.
Once I press or expand pex I can rest assured I will have no leaks and in fact It's been so long since I've had a pex leak I can't remember back that far. When was the last time you had to fix a bad solder joint. (don't lie, I'll Know)
Like it or not copper is on the way out. Mostly due to price, but also convieniance, speed and flexibility of the product.

If I never embraced new products and technologu I'd still be piping with Hub and Spigot and galvanized water lines.

[boillerman]

I've seen as many leaks as a serviceman on pex joints as solder joints. Both causes are I think installer related. Except some on pex where the fittings split. If you see that on copper it's from freezing. Pex needs to be upsized if flow is a concern, since the inside of the pipe is smaller. Seriously, compare a 3/4" copper next to a 1" pex, the ID is about identical. So lawn sprinkling means 1-1/4" if pex. Tub flow drops off for sillcock running, noticably. On the hot lines, even if you hang it on every joist, eventually it sags between the joists. Ugly ugly ugly. My opinion of the plumbing industry as a whole is that we're all turning into a bunch of DIYers who want everything as easy as we can get it. That said, I'm glad drains are done in plastic and not Cast Iron.:rolleyes:

[DuckButter]

NH has good points.

After working for a new residential shop where everything is about cheap, I got turned off by PEX.

I get solder leaks on occasion on wet lines, dry almost never.

When I worked for the shop I mentioned above, there were countless occasions where some kid overestimated PEX's flexibility and kinked the line rather than add a fitting.

There was also the fact that it usually comes in coils, no matter how hard you try to straighten it or clip it, it still looks like crap.

The advantage of PEX to soldering in a tight spot is somewhat negated by the cumbersome task of trying to put a crimp or expansion tool in the same tight spot.

Freezing/bursting, hands down, PEX wins.

When I see PEX stubs for fixtures, it makes me sad that so many don't even bother to sleeve it through the wall so it isn't just flopping around like garden hose.

Yeah, I know it's prolly gonna be the next "CI to PVC" evolution, but so far I'm lucky enough to not have to bid against other shops using PEX....so far.

Thankfully, I don't do new construction any more.

[plumberjr]

for someone to say copper is on the way out is wrong--u must not have a propress--copper has its many advantages and will be my fav forever--pex is junk--id rather use the time tested copper pipe than the junk pex. i do not like pex for many reasons--most of the time i see it, its because a customer is complaining that they dont get enough water out of it--from being undersized--
2--most guys that use it are so damn cheap that they cant put a couple extra fitts inline so it looks professional
3-i never see enough hangers on it--are hangers that much ?????
4--give pex 10 years and on this forum we will talk about it like we do about polybutylene--wait and see
5 i am a service plumber--pex makes homeowners capable of buying fitts and tools at home depot and they say"its only plastic-how bad can it be??"---now i dont know too many homeowners that would even think about soldering a fitting--they call me
now please--arent you guys supposed to support fellow members of the same trade??????pex is still new to plumbing, and as i said, give it some time and it will have a reputation as bad as kohler customer service and parts ordering

as plumbers we should care about the trade and reliable products for the customer(copper), not the cheapest crap we can buy(pex)
thats just my opinion, though