Anyone know of "No-Rotate" or "no-turns"?

[The Wood Meister]

I had an OLD faucet in my tub, circa 1955. It was replaced with a duplicate in about 1975, found one at an old plumbing supply house here. This one is old and giving me fits, going through seats and flat rubber seals on the stems. Drip, drip, drip. The new rubber disks and seats last about 4-6 months before a seat will get a nick and tear the rubber. Stem seals are shot too but atleast it just drips back into the tub when filling or running the shower. I tried packing them with graphite string years ago but it didn't last long. Now they are just too crusty to get apart. I have tried to find the same complete stem assembly but the two places I went to had no idea of the brand, since the valves are not marked and because they were so old.

A friend of mine suggested I try to find some "no-rotates", or as one place remembered them, as "No-Turns". It takes the place of the rubber seal that butts to the seat, except it does not screw on the stem, it has a little spread brass shaft that is just pushed into the stem hole. The idea is it does not turn on the seat when the stem is turned off, but is just pushed against it, never allowing itself to be torn. He had an old box but they were all too big. These were marked "No-Rotate 3/8" ". Apparently I need the next size down for it to fit into the valve body in the wall. He also told me they quit making them a long time ago. Anyone know if they are worth it or available somewhere?

I'd love to change the valve out to a single handle but the spread between hot and cold is about 12" !!!! Very wide. Plus, it would mean tearing up my nice tiled surround. It "can" be accessed from behind the dishwasher on the kitchen side of the wall, but would be a real pain for me ( 6'-7" ) to get back in there for an hour or so.

Any suggestions?

Thanks
Mark

[Service Guy]

That's strange that the seats are wearing down so fast! Either the replacement seats are junk quality, or there is something else wrong with the valve causing the premature failure. Are you using the proper seats and washers for this valve? Have you tried replacing the entire stems? Maybe the stems are somehow damaged and rubbing metal on the seats...something is not right. A good seat and washer on a good valve-stem will take years before they wear out.

[Service Guy]

The "no-rotates" are not the answer to this dilemma imo. Something else is wrong.

[The Wood Meister]

Thanks for the quick reply. This latest replacement came right after replacing my water softener. I noticed some little grit crap on the "cold" washer today when I pulled them out. Maybe some crap dis-lodged during the WS install, but it's usually a twice a year thing anyway. It's possible that the seats are junky but I don't have a lot of choices around here. It was also suggested to try the harder nylon washer on the stem but they didn't have any in my size......Kinda like my shoes! LOL (18EE)

I dunno, it's not dripping for now and my wife will be happy. We don't "rip them down" either, just gently close them to try to make them last longer.

Are there any online supply houses that specialize in older complete stem assemblies? I can remove one and take some measurements and pictures if anyone thinks that would help ID them. These are quite long and don't need to stick out 2" from the tile. I guess shorter would work ok too.

Mark

I

[stokefire7]

I'd like to a pic of this thing, can you post one?

[The Wood Meister]

I pulled the hot stem, here is a picture. The chrome stem body is 1" diameter and 3" long. The thread diameter is 3/4" with a reach length of 5/16".

My wife keeps asking why it is when the hot is on, it drips from the cold stem and vise versa. I told her it's OLD,,,,,like us!!! LOL

http://www.wonders-in-wood.us/images/ridgid/tubstem.jpg

[PLUMBER RICK]

doesn't the chrome sleeve come off the stem to expose the actual stem?

rick.

[Service Guy]

Yep, the stems are chipped. Thats what I thought, the chipped brass 'cup' around the washer is damaging the seat.

Get new stems and seats.;)

[PLUMBER RICK]

just noticed that the cup retainer is missing a chunk. you need to file off the cup that holds the washer and install a replacement cup. chances are it's 1/4 L as you said 3/8'' is too large.

these replacement cups are avaliable and also change to a monel screw.

can you give me the seat thread pitch and size. tpi and diameter. this will quickly narrow down the search.

rick.

[The Wood Meister]

Get new stems and seats.;)


Hmm, that's easier said than done. Some time back, I took the stem to a pretty complete plumbing supply store and they had nothing like it. They had some much shorter but not that long. Overall STEM length is about 3 3/4". But if I can find a complete stem and body, it can be up to an inch shorter overall.

I need 3, center one is the shower diverter.

The chrome is on the stem body, it's not a sleeve. I've had the stems out but could not find.

[The Wood Meister]

just noticed that the cup retainer is missing a chunk. you need to file off the cup that holds the washer and install a replacement cup. chances are it's 1/4 L as you said 3/8'' is too large.

these replacement cups are avaliable and also change to a monel screw.

can you give me the seat thread pitch and size. tpi and diameter. this will quickly narrow down the search.

rick.


Ok, what is a "monel screw"?

Had a "duh" moment and missed the "seat thread pitch". part. I'll go get one and ck it.

seat THREAD diameter is 1/2". Seat thread reach is 3/16" with 3 threads showing.

[Masterplumb]

Are you sure the stem doesnt come out of there? How about a picture of the handle and escutcheon. It looks very familiar, I think I have one in my washer repair box, Ill have to check tommorow

[Service Guy]

That's strange that the seats are wearing down so fast! Either the replacement seats are junk quality, or there is something else wrong with the valve causing the premature failure. Are you using the proper seats and washers for this valve? Have you tried replacing the entire stems? Maybe the stems are somehow damaged and rubbing metal on the seats...something is not right. A good seat and washer on a good valve-stem will take years before they wear out.

Second post, First response....I'm a damn genius.:groucho:

[The Wood Meister]

Are you sure the stem doesnt come out of there? How about a picture of the handle and escutcheon. It looks very familiar, I think I have one in my washer repair box, Ill have to check tommorow

I may have miss-understood an earlier question.

Yes, the stem DOES come out of the large chrome valve. I had it out YEARS ago but it's sooooo corroded now, I don't think there will be much left inside for the stem seal to press into.

The escutcheon and handle are NOT original, just something I found long ago that fit, after the original ones crusted up and finally rotted off! LOL Sorry.

[PLUMBER RICK]

Ok, what is a "monel screw"?

Had a "duh" moment and missed the "seat thread pitch". part. I'll go get one and ck it.

seat THREAD diameter is 1/2". Seat thread reach is 3/16" with 3 threads showing.

monel is great for corrosion resistance, with a high content of nickel.

some seats are available in monel and they last a lifetime.

Monel is a trademark (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark) of INCO ALLOYS INTERNATIONAL, INC (formally International Nickel Co.) for a series of nickel steel metal alloys (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alloy), primarily composed of nickel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel) (up to 67%) and copper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper), with some iron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron) and other trace elements. Monel was created by David H. Browne, chief metallurgist for International Nickel Co. The alloy is binary alloy of the same proportions of nickel and copper as is found natrually in copper ore. Monel was named for company president Ambrose Monell, and patented in 1906 ( U.S. patent 811,239).

rick.

[The Wood Meister]

Well, I went digging in the bathroom trash (YUK!!!) because I know how much pictures help. Here are the old seats and washers. These are about 6 months old.

http://www.wonders-in-wood.us/images/ridgid/oldseats.jpg

Mark

[JCsPlumbing]

Even though you have deteriorated cups on the stems, those washers and seats don't look too bad. Are you wrapping the seat threads with teflon before installation?

J.C.

[The Wood Meister]

I've been using Teflon paste on all the threads. I may make a call or two tomorrow and see if there are any old timey plumbing stores around that I can email the picture too. If I can buy 3 new complete stem/valves, i'll be good for another 20 years.

[gear junkie]

Are you putting plumbers grease on the washers?

[Masterplumb]

Looks like a Gerber seat

http://www.azpartsmaster.com/images/catalog/ishop/4110.jpg

[cactusman]

51st AVE and Thunderbird in the strip center where the ace hardware is, there is an excellent homeowner plumbing supply store. It's homeowner friendly.

You may also want to try sine hardware

Also at Grand and 91st AVE there is a plumbing supply..where Junior's tools used to be it's on the SW corner. they seem to carry a good supply of stuff.

I doubt Home Depot or Lowe's will have anything you need.

Looking at the photo I say replace the entire unit! I have a 1966 vintage home and it was built before building insectors arrived in Arizona! I have found it's easier, cheaper, less frustrating to replace than trying to repair.

I recall going to Payless cashways and the guy saying "gosh! I haven't seen anything like that in 25 years"!!!! So get new good quality, do it right the first time and then you won't have problems for another 20 years!

Cactus Man

[The Wood Meister]

Thanks Cactus Man. I know Sine hardware, Ed Sine was a coach at Washington High School when I was there! LOL

I'll pull a valve out and go for a drive. It's not too far from me. Also have two Ace hardware's close by too.

[The Wood Meister]

Well, i'm still looking and thanks to one email I got suggesting an Eljer, I found http://www.faucetpartsplus.com/product_p/405583.htm Sure looks like it. It is the closest I've seen. Whaddyathing? Maybe I need to email them and see if the measurements are the same. Cool!


Mark

[PLUMBER RICK]

very good call whoever found the stem;)

rick.

[The Wood Meister]

That was compliments of Big Jim!!

I will call them tomorrow and see if they will be kind enough to measure one. It appears that the 60 dollar price includes all three complete valves? Would that be a correct assumption?

http://www.faucetpartsplus.com/v/vspfiles/photos/405583-2.jpg

http://www.wonders-in-wood.us/images/ridgid/tubstem.jpg

Mark

[FINER9998]

what about ridding yourself of those troublesome old valves and install a single handle pressure balanced shower body? you could use this to avoid tile work once the old two handle body is removed.

http://www.efaucets.com/detail.asp?Product_ID=RP29827&cm_mmc=portals-_-Google-_-product-_-RP29827&CAWELAID=205673913

[The Wood Meister]

Finer.....that would work fine. I know I "should" bite the bullet and upgrade the entire assembly but my plumber buddy is in the middle of building his own house and I hate to ask right now. I just did his whole house full of cabinets trying to get them settled in. His wife needs a kidney transplant and HE is going to be the donor. They need to be in the new house so they have room for a live in nurse after the surgery. For now, 60 bucks is ok to buy me some time.


Mark

[ridgidpipe]

Boy I would have been wrong on this one I was thinking it was a central brass stem at first glance or maybe a Gerber
I guess I dont see enough eljer faucets in my neck of the woods