Running water lines from house to barn

[Gryhnd]

Hello all,
We need to get running water from our house to our barn, which is about 300 ft away (shortest route). We were going to hire someone, but having difficulty finding anyone so thinking we will tackle it ourselves (I would say my husband has basic handyman plumbing skills). We need to go across a seasonal creek which has 30' span (no water in it most of the time). We are having a bridge built of steel H beams and wood walkway and plan to run the water line under the bridge, attached to underside (would be way too difficult to get lines dug under the creek bed we think). At the barn, we plan to have a couple of those frost free spigots, one outside, one inside, for filling water buckets, giving horse a bath, etc. No sink/toilet there. We have city water. We are in Middle TN (new to this area), so believe there is not too much frost but we would plan on putting the lines 2' below ground level, I think that should be okay for winter.
Can anyone tell us what type of material we should use for the piping? I assume PVC or I have read of something called CPVC also, but how large in diameter? Also, would it be the same material running under the bridge or should that be metal pipe? Assume we need some type of insulation wrap around it under the bridge.
Thanks so much for any help you can provide!

[NHMaster3015]

don't know what you have for pressure and volume there but cost wise, due to the length of the run I would run at least 1" poyethelyne well pipe. You can get it in 100-300-and 500 foot rolls at a reasonable price.

[BHD]

polyethylene well pipe does well, if it is rocky tho some times sharp rocks can work there way in to the pipe and cause leaks in time,

I have over 3000 feet of 1' polyethylene well pipe on my place and it has been in over 9 years. and not a problem, and it has some pulsating pressure on it. It is a water line from a windmill, and the windmill pumps the water through it, to a storage tank at the house.

I have also ran about the same amount of 1" or 1 1/4" PVC pipe a little over 1/2 mile to a stock tank in the pasture, and as of yet no problems and it has been in about 12 to 15 years, ( I do not remember the size )

If the size large enough so you do not have much pipe losses, you will have good flow and pressures

[ridgidpipe]

I am just wondering if you are putting in Frostproof Spigots due to the fact that the pipes may freeze how are you going to protect the pipe from freezing on the underside of the bridge wher more the likely the pipe will be exposed to the elements.
Im in Ohio so our winters can be pretty brutal therefore our water lines need to be a minimum of 4 feet underground
Usually in situations such as your we still excavate through a creek bed and instead of frostproof silcocks we put in bury hydrants
I would check with your local plumbers or code officials to figure out the best way to handle your project
Plus having city water you will more than likely have to add a backflow device to the line going to the barn. Best to check locally to see what you need to do

[plumberscrack]

Hardly worth all the effort just for a few hosebibbs

What's it cost these days to drill a shallow well?

[plumberjr]

You are crossing an auxillary water source, so you will need to install a r.p backflow at the city main in house--auxillary water means possible cross connection and the epa does not like that--protect the city and yourself and have a plumber install and test the backflow and have him install a check valve where you tee off the houseline to prevent outside water from backflow
better safe than sorry and sick:)-i also would run poly pipe minimum 1"-and the bridge area--if you get below freezing,insulation alone wont help against a driving 20 degree wind--youd need heattape there also--is there no way to trench through the creek if its dry and quickly bury it???

[toolaholic]

Plumbers crack . How do You know a shallow well is possible there? I have done 7 shallow and deep wells in the past.

[drtyhands]

Plumbers crack . How do You know a shallow well is possible there? I have done 7 shallow and deep wells in the past.
Tool,I don't know how much a well costs.Is anyone interested in giving me/us an idea the difference between what's the difference between shallow and deep.After purchasing permanent pump equipment,running surface plumbing,I wonder what it takes to have the drill contractor go 100' deeper.How far off am I at high ball increase of 20%.

[wrench spinner]

in New York my well driller charges $14 a foot to drill and $24 a foot for casing, plus a 4 to 5 hundred dollar mobilization fee then figure about 2.5k to set up the pump, tank and controls

[BHD]

my wells are 260 plus feet, there is no shallow water, in our area, not that that is that deep but it is deep enough,

~~~~~~~~~

if the creek is dry a lot of the times I bet you could back hoe through it unless the terrain is really bad,

~~~~~~~~~

this would be a little extra pipe, run two runs of the pipe, run the pipe through a support pipe and insulate it , back at the house put a circulating pump on it, most of the pipe will be under ground, if you want when it gets cold switch on the circulating pump or (you could hook it to a line voltage thermostat set for about 35 degrees), and the water will loop thought the ground keeping it warm and moving, as it goes over the bridge and back into the ground and then let loop back around again through the system, let it make a complete loop from end to end all 300 feet, it should keep it from freezing, unless you really have some wicked weather. and if the pipe is protected (insulated and in a support pipe under the bridge),

if it really gets cold one can turn on a hydrant and let it fast drip or run very slow if necessary,

or one could probly set it up to drain the pipe out or blow it out depending on the elevations and such,

[plumberjr]

just bury it deep enough--there are lots of things you could do,but what if you have an emergency then come home to find a disaster?? bury the pipe 4 feet and all underground and u wont have to drain this or leave this on or blow this out, etc---just do it right---DEEP AND ALL UNDERGROUND

[Gryhnd]

Thanks for all the suggestions. As to a well, it sounds a bit costly and also the ground is a bit rocky so not sure how that would work out, but perhaps we can look into it. I think it is impossible to dig under the creek bed. That is what we planned to do initially and had a few quotes for doing that, but the guy we chose delayed things so much and then we just never heard back from him. However, since then, we have had a few flash floods go through. The force of this water is quite severe when it comes through (99% of the time the creek is dry) and tree limbs and whatever else someone has thrown into the bed upstream come down. It has moved the rocks, etc. underneath to the point where we can see what I guess you would call shale - what appears to be very large flat grey rock. Someone who lives in the area told us that is the bottom of the creek and it would not be very easy, if at all, to try to remove that/get through it. So we really think digging under the creek bed is out.
I should mention this creek bed is probably at least 8' deep, if I stand in it, I am completely below ground level. Additionally, there are trees lining the creek, so the plumber that was going to do the work at one point felt it would be difficult to get through the tree roots. So...this is why we feel running it under a bridge is our best bet. IF for some reason the lines did freeze a couple of times, I could live with not having the water running for a few days a year, provided of course the freezing didn't cause permanent damage we'd have to repair. At this location, the water has never come to the top/ground level, but you can never be sure what will happen with the weather, of course. It has probably been a few feet from the top, given how the tree roots look on the sides.
BHD, your idea sounds good. We have only been here for one winter, but the weather is pretty mild IMO, it did get to 9 degrees as low a few times, but not much cold wind or snow or ice. The plumber had mentioned some type of insulation wrapped around it under the bridge. What type of pipe would you use for the above-ground/bridge section?
Thanks!

[plumberjr]

you can also have someone directionally bore the whole line in poly pipe--then there is no trench--and its not that expensive compared to other routes--call a directional boring company, most like to do small jobs b/c they can get in and out quick--my boring guy has bored under buildings to get us water before---if u want it there they will get it there---i just would not run pipe above ground if the temp gets below 35 degrees--heattape and insulation dont always work

[Gryhnd]

The directional boring sounds like a great idea if it is not too cost-prohibitive for us (never heard of it but just looked it up on the internet), AND if I can find someone around here that does it. At this point, our horses will be here tomorrow so we'll be running a hose from the house until we can figure this out, but I like the idea of no trench since we do have to run the water line through the horse field and we would have had to be very careful to make sure the ground is compacted very well so they do not step in any loose soil.

[HVAC HAWK]

i think the boring way may be out if the boring head hits one of the gray rocks it will go in a different direction

how about run an under electric line with the water line and then at the creek put heat tape and insulate the pipes and the heat tape can come with a thermostat that will turn it on when the temp gets cold out to the freezing point

thats what i would do then you can put a light on the bridge and make it look nice :D

[JCsPlumbing]

My opinion. Call a well contractor and get a price. Independent well without the underground line to worry about.

J.C.

[Gryhnd]

Is PEX pipe the same as the polyethylene pipe mentioned in the thread? I called Lowes and they said it sounds like what we are looking for - PEX pipe, she says she has it in red, white and blue (I'm guessing those colors most be thickness differences, or diameter?) and also a black thin pipe, all used for running portable water, on a 100' roll. Thanks.

[JCsPlumbing]

PEX is a different material from Polyethylene Pipe. (Black Pipe) The colors have nothing to do with the size. Just for easy ID and some UV protection depending on product. There are problems with Zurn PEX that some of the homecenters carry that has yet to be ironed out last I read. DO NOT PUT IN THIN BLACK PIPE. I know you want to DIY, but from what I've read you might come out just as well hiring a licensed plumber or a licensed well contractor. I'm a plumber but I think you're best answer is the well contractor. Good luck.

J.C.

[Gryhnd]

Okay, thanks. I don't think we want a well, but I did try calling three plumbers today and managed to get one appt out of those calls, so we'll see what they say when they come out on Monday.

[plumberjr]

do yourself a favor and forget about ever using pex pipe--it is junk----ever hear the old saying you get what you pay for??? pex is crap junk --it is cheap crap that was a great invention for low bidding--i dont trust it, dont like it and wont use it--save yourself a headache and dont use it

[frodo]

i would rent a trencher and trench, under the stream bed, i figure you are trying to do this on the cheap. trench it all the way ,they have some nice looking frost proof under ground hose bibs that look like a old hand pump. it will cost about 500.oo
for the rental. and delivery. you can save if you go get it i would also use a 2 inch pvc sleeve under that stream. just in case

[Gryhnd]

I think everyone that sees it is coming to the conclusion that is going to be too difficult to go under the creek bed. It didn't look so bad when we moved in, but with several flash floods, etc. later, now there is all shale showing, don't know how deep that goes. Also, the former owner had said if you dig down, you hit water, even though 99% of the time it's dry. Also, there has been some concern about getting through all the tree roots on the banks.
Pex is truly no good? We had the one plumbing company here today, they are probably the largest one in the area. I expected their prices to be high given they are a large operation, but still! First quote was over 9k (this is for running line from connection under the house to the barn - 330' of 1" Pex, 2 frostfree free standing spigots (right term?), and insulating across the bridge, I think cutoff valves also at either end.
Told us the Pex is made to contract and expand, though there is certainly a possibility that if we have alot of cold weather and it contracts/expands too much, it'll break. However, said it wouldn't be a problem to replace since it would be under the bridge section, not like we'd have to dig up the piping in the ground.
We were shocked at the price (given that 2 local guys last year had quoted us $800 and $1200 to bring their backhoe here and dig under the creek (prior to us seeing the shale). I have to think the $800 at least was not accurate, that is the guy that kept blowing us off and we finally came to the conclusion that he was never coming back to do the work.

This guy went back to the office and talked to the owner after we expressed our surprise at the price, and they lowered the price significantly, to under 6k. Still...way more than we were expecting. They do have a 10 yr warranty though which I'm sure the smaller guys don't have. We're all for using local, smaller operations, but it is hard when you can't get them out here.

[wrench spinner]

a decent size trackhoe will rip right through the shale, how about getting a price from an excavator to dig the trench and a plumber to lay and hook up the pipe. Probably 2 to 3 days to dig the trench if everything is dry right now...

[wrench spinner]

what is your budget on this job!? You should have posted that first and given you guidance then so that you wouldnt have had to waste yours or someone elses time. An excavator can get up to $1200 a day in my area for a decent sized machine, (12 ton excavator like a Cat 312) the machine I would use on this job

[HVAC HAWK]

i like how fast the price can go from 9k to 6k just like that
that means he was ripping you off at first but then they came to a conclusion that you were talking to the prow's on the ridgid forum :D .they had an idea you knew a little bit about what your doing

can you post some pictures of the stream and the trees ,this will help the other people here to see what you have to go through

[Gryhnd]

I've posted a few pictures. The open area is where the bridge will go as it was the section with the least amount of trees (and we cut a few small ones down). The flood picture is not that section, but further down where the water comes up higher. Each time we have had a "flood", it has changed the bottom of the creek. As I said, originally the grey rock was only showing at the end of the creek (where the water is higher/ground lower), but after this last time, it is now visible up here by the house where we are putting the bridge and had originally planned to run water lines underneath the creekbed.

[BHD]

first it is a beautiful place,

I can see your concern on the creek bed, I would think a local backhoe, trencher contractor would have an idea what they can do, if any thing. if you dig out up along the bank you will have a soft area to erode, when the creek does run,

[plumberjr]

Do not use pex---it is junk junk junk-----if using plasic, use polyethylene rated for the pressure--dont go with pex--i cant stress how crappy it is--after expanding and contracting so much, dont u think it will finally give out????yes!!!! If someone could drop a price 3k that quick--forget about them---call a local excavater---a small outfit could use this as filler work to keep them going--you will get a much better price, and they lay pipe and dig for a living--or do the directional boring--then the creek is not an issue b/c they go real deep if necessary---you still need to make more calls---you will find a good price for good work

also-----do not use pex-----it is junk

[JCsPlumbing]

Still don't know why you won't even consider a well contractor. :rolleyes: No electricity at the barn?

By the way, better not let the EPA know about your natural creekbed crossing. Just a tip. Good luck with what you decide.

J.C.

[wrench spinner]

I am with JC, you should be able to get a well for under 6k? That is as long as you dont have to build a road to get the drilling rig in! Lets see 200 feet times 14 is 2800 plus 24 times say 50 is 1200 plus say 2k for the pump controls that is 4k plus you dont have to worry about anything, you can trench for the conduit yourself it only has to go down 18" and that you dont have to worry about freezing. It could be a wash as far as running a line vs. drilling a well, but you should explore the optuion regardless!

[NHMaster3015]

Do not use pex---it is junk junk junk-----if using plasic, use polyethylene rated for the pressure--dont go with pex--i cant stress how crappy it is--after expanding and contracting so much, dont u think it will finally give out????yes!!!! If someone could drop a price 3k that quick--forget about them---call a local excavater---a small outfit could use this as filler work to keep them going--you will get a much better price, and they lay pipe and dig for a living--or do the directional boring--then the creek is not an issue b/c they go real deep if necessary---you still need to make more calls---you will find a good price for good work

also-----do not use pex-----it is junk

So how do you really feel about Pex?:D

BTW poly pipe expands also.

[NHMaster3015]

PROPERTY
TEST
ASTM SI
ENGLISH

METHOD
UNITS
UNITS
Density (Natural)
D1505
0.944g/cc

Density (Black)
D1505
0.955g/cc

Flow Rate(190/21.6)
D1238
8.75 g/10 min.

Tensile Strength @ Ultimate
D638
31.0 MPa
5000psi
Tensile Strength @ Yield
D638
22.8 MPa
3500psi
Ultimate Elongation
D638
>800%
>800%
Flexural Modulus (2% secant)
D790
827MPa
120,000psi
Environmental Stress Crack Resistance



(ESCR) Condition C
D1693
>5,000 hrs.
>5,000 hrs.
Brittleness Temperature
D746
<-117 C
<-180 F
Vicat Softening Temperature
D1525
126 C
259 F
Hardness, Shore D
D2240
66
66
Thermal Expansion Coefficient
D696
1.8x10(-4) cm/cm/C
1.0x10(-4) in/in/F
HYDROSTATIC DESIGN BASIS
D2837
11.0MPa @ 23 C
1600psi @ 73.4F
CELL CLASSIFICATION
D3350
345464C**
345464B**
MATERIAL CLASSIFICATION
D1248
Type III
Grade P34


Category 5
Class C or B


Material:
Crosslinked polyethylene PEX-a Engel Method
Standard Grade Hydrostatic Ratings (PPI):
200°F (93°C) at 80 psi 180°F (82°C) at 100 psi 73.4°F (23°C) at 160 psi ½" Wirsbo AQUAPEX®plus tubing only: 120°F (49°C) at130 psi
Linear Expansion Rate:
1.10"/10°F (12°C)/100'

[toolaholic]

Pex is junk! Why does My son in law buy about 20'000 ft. a month to install in concrete slabs for radiant heat ,by Geo? www.earthheat.com

They use to use copper,No more doesn't like cement,pin holes. Pex has worked over 30 years in Europe! Same bunch that gave us Viessmann with stainless heat exchangers.
What does He know! N.Y. times just flew out to Duvall Wash. last month ,and has since
done an article on His Buss. Oh, I do still use copper ,But pex .abs pvc. arn't going away
Get use to it!

[Gryhnd]

Thanks for all the advice. We have decided to go with 1" PVC Schedule 40. The guy building the bridge will dig the trench for us at a reduced rate since his equipment will already be here, and we will see about laying the pipe and making the connections to the house ourselves; if we feel uncomfortable with the cnx, we will try to have a plumber come out. We just don't feel it is a good idea to try to get under the creek, given what we have seen occur with it, and we do not want to cause any erosion of the bank. I don't know if I'd even call it a creek, it is completely dry 99% of the time, except if we have had rain for a week it may build up, or a flash flood in which we had heavy rain overnight and the creek was dry by morning. As to a well, no, we didn't look into it so I can't really say whether that would be a better option, we are concerned about the somewhat rocky soil and also the quality of the water, but of course we wouldn't know for sure unless we looked into it. I think our only issue may be the pipe under the bridge freezing, but we will do our best to insulate it and deal with it. If we have water 99% of the time and it is just frozen a few days a years, we can live with that as opposed to not having water at all. :)

[JCsPlumbing]

Last comment. Well drillers like rock. :)

J.C.

[wrench spinner]

you SHOULD install a backflow preventer on the line prior to going out to the barn to prevent contamination of your water supply. I would recommend a Watts 909 RPZ just to be on the safe side. The last thing you need is fecal coliform in your drinking water!!

[wrench spinner]

Last comment. Well drillers like rock. :)

J.C.

The more rock the shallower you ahve to go with your casing and chances are the shallower you have to go with a well. If you only need to go 100 feet dow to get water and only 10 feet to rock we are looking at really quite an affordable number! maybe less than 4k!

[Gryhnd]

you SHOULD install a backflow preventer on the line prior to going out to the barn to prevent contamination of your water supply. I would recommend a Watts 909 RPZ just to be on the safe side. The last thing you need is fecal coliform in your drinking water!!

Thank you. No one has mentioned that, they've only mentioned shut-off valves at either end.

[Gryhnd]

Thank you. No one has mentioned that, they've only mentioned shut-off valves at either end.

Okay, I take that back. My husband says he was planning to put that valve in - guess he knows a little more about plumbing than I give him credit for :D

[Gryhnd]

PEX is a different material from Polyethylene Pipe. (Black Pipe) The colors have nothing to do with the size. Just for easy ID and some UV protection depending on product. There are problems with Zurn PEX that some of the homecenters carry that has yet to be ironed out last I read. DO NOT PUT IN THIN BLACK PIPE. I know you want to DIY, but from what I've read you might come out just as well hiring a licensed plumber or a licensed well contractor. I'm a plumber but I think you're best answer is the well contractor. Good luck.

J.C.

Just curious, what is wrong with the black pipe Lowes has? I didn't get to see the label on it so I dont know what it is called at Lowes, but a friend in KY told me that is all they use around there for water lines - some black flexible pipe that comes in 100' section. Thanks.

[wrench spinner]

It is thinner and oly rated for i want to say 100 psi, they have that pipe in blue that is rated up to 200 psi, it is thicker, you are better off with that, pricewaise is VERY sililiar, not that much of an increase for a better product, try a pump supplier in your area they should have the pipe to use!

[NHMaster3015]

There's nothing wrong with it. Probably 90% of all domestic well's have black polyethelyne run from the pump to the house. Our city water department uses it from the main to the house also.

[Gryhnd]

Thanks, how does that compare to the PVC Sched 40 then (which we had decided to use). I know our lines from the road to the house (which previous owner installed - it is probably at least 1/4 mile) are PVC. When I called the plumbing supply places around here and originally asked for "polyethlene pipe", they just directed me to PEX, and I understand there is a difference - regular PE, and then PEX is crosslinked PE, correct? One guy at each plumbing place said he'd use Sched 40 over the PEX.

[wrench spinner]

Schd 40 is fine, a little bit more $$ but overall a fine way to go. It'll Prob take a littlewith glueing it up and all. Just make sure you keep your joints clean and you will do fine!