Cast iron or ABS for replacement of a main sewer line?

[Simon Says]

Hi everyone -- First, I want to say that I enjoy reading this forum, as well as the professional forum. I've owned a duplex in Los Angeles for the last eleven years and I've nearly always hired licensed plumbers to work on the various issues that have come up. (I'm also considering a career change and I'm very interested in the UA plumbing apprenticeship -- but I'll leave that question for another post.)

Anyway, from 1997 (when I bought the house) until 2006 my main sewer line backed up roughly every nine months or so due to roots, so I had a plumber use a sewer camera while his helper walked around outside and marked the location of the sewer pipe on the concrete driveway.

There were four or five breaks in the line where roots had "invaded," so I chopped down the culprits: five tall, skinny trees that ran alongside the sewer line (and were causing cracks in the retaining wall between my property and my neighbor's). Since then, I haven't had any problems with roots in the main line, but I'm planning on re-paving the driveway and I'd like to replace the sewer line at the same time and add a cleanout as well. (Currently the cleanout is inside the house.) Incidentally, my house was built in 1929 and I think this sewer line is the original.

A plumber previously recommended ABS, but I'd like to know if cast iron would be more long-lasting and durable. I'm not a big fan of plastic, and I want to have this job done correctly. So what would you recommend -- ABS or cast iron? Thanks in advance for any light you can shed on the pros and cons of either material.

[drtyhands]

pvc 40

[DuckButter]

pvc 40

Exactly what I was thinking before I even opened the thread.

Ask your plumber why not Sched 40 PVC?

It's more durable than ABS, has a shelf life of over 100 years unlike cast iron.

As for jumping into the trade...please do open a thread.

You have a noble career as is, plumbing may be more lucrative after completing an apprenticeship, but the apprenticeship can be tough if your not young.

[Masterplumb]

Cast iron must be used as per our local codes

[stokefire7]

PVC sch. 40

[ToUtahNow]

I concur PVC would be my choice as well.

Mark

[drtyhands]

Cast iron must be used as per our local codes

OP's covered in his hood with PVC.

[ovruigo]

PVC sched 40.

Also be sure to add a two way cleanout. If its deep, turn up 2 cleanouts opposing each other. A 2 way is hard to direct when the line is deeper than 2 feet.

[ridgidpipe]

I would have to say PVC also
Even here in Ohio where a lot of ABS is used I have never seen it used for the main sewer line
We usually use a transition fitting where the main comes in under the footer to change from PVC to ABS

[toolaholic]

Here we go again! How Does N.Y. code affect L.A. Ca. code ??????

[drtyhands]

Here we go again! How Does N.Y. code affect L.A. Ca. code ??????

It doesn't Tool,I think our fellow member was putting it out there for his readers in his area.
What a great guy,HUH?:p

[DuckButter]

Here we go again! How Does N.Y. code affect L.A. Ca. code ??????

His point was that NY code is MUCH, MUCH better than yer silly Cali code.:eek:

[Masterplumb]

Here we go again! How Does N.Y. code affect L.A. Ca. code ??????

Tool I was just making conversation, I am interested in codes in other parts of the country. If you have a problem with that...oh well. Dont be such a tool, Tool, but I guess some things YOU have no control over

[DuckButter]

Tool I was just making conversation, I am interested in codes in other parts of the country. If you have a problem with that...oh well. Dont be such a tool, Tool, but I guess some things YOU have no control over

Don't listen to him, he's lying...trying to convert us ALL to NY code...it's a conspiracy!

[Masterplumb]

Don't listen to him, he's lying...trying to convert us ALL to NY code...it's a conspiracy!

I believe our codes are somewhat alike, kind of like the Yankees and Redsox......Oh wait we have 26 championships and you guys have what 5 or 6.

[DuckButter]

I believe our codes are somewhat alike, kind of like the Yankees and Redsox......Oh wait we have 26 championships and you guys have what 5 or 6.

Yes, as in..THIRD place! :eek:

[JERRYMAC]

A.B.S.
YOU WOULD LOOK VERY, VERY LONG AND HARD
TO FIND SCH. 40 P.V.C. SEWER PIPE AND FITTINGS IN THE GREATER L. A. AREA, :shocked2:

ALL PLUMBERS IN THAT AREA WOULD QUOTE YOU ON A.B.S. PIPE AND FITTINGS :canoodle:
IT IS SMOOTHER INSIDE THEN C.I. PIPE AND IS COULD LAST UP 100 YEARS OR MORE,
C.I. IS RATED AT 50-60 YEARS AND WOULD BE VERY, VERY EXPENSIVE TO INSTALL THAT MUCH FOOTAGE OF C.I.

CA. LIC. CONTRACTOR

[ToUtahNow]

A.B.S.
YOU WOULD LOOK VERY, VERY LONG AND HARD
TO FIND SCH. 40 P.V.C. SEWER PIPE AND FITTINGS IN THE GREATER L. A. AREA, :shocked2:

ALL PLUMBERS IN THAT AREA WOULD QUOTE YOU ON A.B.S. PIPE AND FITTINGS :canoodle:
IT IS SMOOTHER INSIDE THEN C.I. PIPE AND IS COULD LAST UP 100 YEARS OR MORE,
C.I. IS RATED AT 50-60 YEARS AND WOULD BE VERY, VERY EXPENSIVE TO INSTALL THAT MUCH FOOTAGE OF C.I.

CA. LIC. CONTRACTOR

Since you've been gone PVC has become pretty available.

Mark

[PLUMBER RICK]

i too like pvc over abs. the pvc is white and is very easy to photograph compared to the black abs.

where in l.a. are you?

do you have a copy of the video?

can you post a link so we can see it?

actually the longest lasting pipe and the strongest would be hdpe sdr17 trenchless pipe.

you can hit this with a sledge hammer and have it bounce off.

unfortunately it's only approved for trenchless installations and not conventional:rolleyes:

rick.

[drtyhands]

His point was that NY code is MUCH, MUCH better than yer silly Cali code.:eek:
Really,
Keep swaping out that cast iron at the expense of others.;)
Who says the Mafia is dead.

[Masterplumb]

Yes, as in..THIRD place! :eek:

Second place....third place, whats the difference?

[drtyhands]

Since you've been gone PVC has become pretty available.

Mark
And I prefer it over ABS.Once you learn the differing techniques from ABS you end up with a stronger,straighter and nicer looking product.Costs a little more,but one can make that up with ones superior skill level,aye?;)

[drtyhands]

Second place....third place, whats the difference?

There has got to be a line to go with this...Don't leave it up to me I'll get banned.

[DuckButter]

There has got to be a line to go with this...Don't leave it up to me I'll get banned.

We're ragging back n forth, yanks / red sox rivalry...I don't think either of us has a door to hang a hat on with those dam Angels playin' like they are.

[Masterplumb]

We're ragging back n forth, yanks / red sox rivalry...I don't think either of us has a door to hang a hat on with those dam Angels playin' like they are.

They just kicked the crap out of us tonight

[plumberjr]

sch 40 pvc or 3034 gasketed out here--never seen abs sewer line here

[drtyhands]

Sounds like the Angels are doing pretty good.I wouldn't know.
Last baseball game I saw was with a bunch of special friends at an indians game last year.
:grin-loving:.

[Masterplumb]

Sounds like the Angels are doing pretty good.I wouldn't know.
Last baseball game I saw was with a bunch of special friends at an indians game last year.
:grin-loving:.

There has got to be a line to go with this...Don't leave it up to me I'll get banned. :poke:

[drtyhands]

There has got to be a line to go with this...Don't leave it up to me I'll get banned. :poke:

SHWEET
I like your humor;)

[Simon Says]

Thanks for all the advice -- So far it seems that most of you are recommending PVC-40, so when I get estimates I'll specifically ask for that in the quote. To answer Plumber Rick's questions, I live in Silverlake, and I have the video of the sewer on a VHS tape. While one guy was inserting the camera, another man was outside with a metal-detector-type device, and he spraypainted the sidewalk above the area where the pipe was. (The paint has since worn off the concrete, but I made sure to take photos so that I'd know the route of the pipe.) The tape also shows how many feet the camera had gone. I think I had this done in 2005 but it might have been in 2004, and it cost me $200. (I had to call four or five different places before going with this plumber. Usually, when I've gotten the sewer line rooted, without the camera, it costs me around $75.00 except for an emergency visit, which cost me $125.00.)

Duckbutter, regarding my possible desire to undertake an apprenticeship in plumbing, thanks for the kind words regarding my current job, but as noble as teaching may be, I need a break. I'm 37, and I've worked as a teacher for ten years (six years in an elementary school in South-Central L.A. and four years at a high school near Downtown L.A.) and I'm tired of begging and pleading with students to do their homework or read ten pages of a novel on their own. I'm tired of grading essays, dealing with the school bureaucracy, and feeling like no matter what I do, it won't make much of a difference. I like the fact that plumbing involves constant learning, and I'm giving plumbing serious thought, but I'm still weighing all my options. (Anyway, this is a plumbing forum, not a frustrated-teacher forum, so I'll stop yapping.) Thanks again to everyone for all the advice.

[NHMaster3015]

Take it from a guy who has been a plumbing contactor for 35 years and now teaches high school. Teaching is way way better. I'd much rather chase kids down for homework than chase customers for payment :D
Besides, you can't beat the insurance and retirement benefits.

[toolaholic]

Go red sox, go pvc

[NHMaster3015]

Thanks, I almost forgot the subject here. I Hate ABS. Yes it's light weight and you only need the one glue, no primer. But the stuff bends and softens with the heat and cracks in the winter and there's no way I'd bury the stuff. I know a lot of you guys down south pretty much use this stuff all the time because that's what's available but thank god I don''t have too.

[Masterplumb]

Go Butchers! Jealousy, what an ugly thing.

[toolaholic]

Where's your little blue shirt ,honey

[Masterplumb]

Dont you remember you put it away when you were cleaning my house for extra money:nono: Damn old people always forget things.

[DuckButter]

Thanks, I almost forgot the subject here. I Hate ABS. Yes it's light weight and you only need the one glue, no primer. But the stuff bends and softens with the heat and cracks in the winter and there's no way I'd bury the stuff. I know a lot of you guys down south pretty much use this stuff all the time because that's what's available but thank god I don''t have too.

Just called a forum member in Cali to comment after doing a service call in a home with cell-core ABS.
Holy cow!
It was rediculously flimsy...I thought it was a vacuum line at first.

[toolaholic]

Cell core is suppose to be for noise. It just doesn't feel right. On 2 story homes,to keep it quiet, some use cast for drains,and waste. ABS for all vents and 1st floor.

[JCsPlumbing]

Cell core is supposed to be for noise? I don't understand this. Please explain.:rolleyes:

J.C.

[NHMaster3015]

Cell core is cool stuff. You can carry 600' on your shoulder if you can find a way to balance it.
'
What is it. Instead of the core being a solid plastic it is made up of tiney little balls all glued held together by the bonded outer and inner surfaces which makes it lighter and more noise absorbant.

[JCsPlumbing]

I may have been misunderstood. I know what cellular core is but have never heard of it being used for noise reduction. I've used cast iron to reduce noise and at one time knew the decibel level reduction it achieved.

600' on your shoulder! You're stronger than me. I can't think of carrying 30 sticks of 3" on my shoulder.

The cellular core/foamcore I'm familiar with is the same thickness as schedule 40 pressure pipe but has the cellular core to save cost & decrease weight. Still, not gonna try carrying 600' around.

J.C.

[Service Guy]

I agree with JC, cell-core doesn't do jack for noise reduction. Cast Iron does.

[drtyhands]

Just called a forum member in Cali to comment after doing a service call in a home with cell-core ABS.
Holy cow!
It was rediculously flimsy...I thought it was a vacuum line at first.
That's why Code requires it be supported every 4'(like all other platics).Don't worry though I'm starting to see systems that are holding up and CLEAR inside surface after 40 years.Not gonna happen with cast.Still like PVC.

I understand the reasoning behind installing cast for noise and non-combustion.But I'm an advocate for all underground be installed in non corrosive plastic.Yeah,you guys have basements and subfloors.No big deal keep hangin'cast till your hearts content.Easiest swap out for killer profits, I love doing it.
The problem comes into play when you put the ancient design were an extreme amount of resources are needed to replace.It's not easy for me to explain that I need tear ones structure apart one day to replce,then install the same junk in the ground on a new project the next.

[Service Guy]

I understand the reasoning behind installing cast for noise and non-combustion. But I'm an advocate for all underground be installed in non corrosive plastic.

No argument here.

[Service Guy]

Requiring cast iron for underground sewerlines is stupid imo.

[drtyhands]

I agree with JC, cell-core doesn't do jack for noise reduction. Cast Iron does.

I havn't heard anything about cell core being quiet.First I've heard of this is here right now.
Love putting in cast in the walls and lids so people aren't disturbed.Doesn't take that much longer,maybe20% in the overall waste system install.

That doesn't mean I'm only raising my price 20%
:groucho:

[JCsPlumbing]

I once asked the drain cleaners on here what percentage of their work was PVC/ABS. There average reply was 15% if I recall. 85% cast iron/galvanized. Much less problematic with "good" plastics installed correctly.

And I do understand when other factors are present to favor a cast, ductile, or other material.

J.C.

[drtyhands]

I once asked the drain cleaners on here what percentage of their work was PVC/ABS. There average reply was 15% if I recall. 85% cast iron/galvanized. Much less problematic with "good" plastics installed correctly.

And I do understand when other factors are present to favor a cast, ductile, or other material.

J.C.

I wonder how much of that 15% plastic was put in with backgrade?

[JCsPlumbing]

Backgraded PVC/ABS. Good question. Something I run into ALL THE TIME is a 1.5" galv. trap arm pointing downhill (backgraded). Don't understand it.

J.C.

[NHMaster3015]

I may have been misunderstood. I know what cellular core is but have never heard of it being used for noise reduction. I've used cast iron to reduce noise and at one time knew the decibel level reduction it achieved.

600' on your shoulder! You're stronger than me. I can't think of carrying 30 sticks of 3" on my shoulder.

The cellular core/foamcore I'm familiar with is the same thickness as schedule 40 pressure pipe but has the cellular core to save cost & decrease weight. Still, not gonna try carrying 600' around.

J.C.
Hey, I never said it would reduce the noise, only that is the thinking behind the idea. Come on you 40lb weakling lift lift lift. When I was your age ai used to walk 20 miles to school up hill...both ways....:D

[JCsPlumbing]

Just looked it up in case any one wants to try it.

600' of 3" Foamcore=630lbs. Good luck. :rolleyes:

J.C.

[DuckButter]

That's why Code requires it be supported every 4'(like all other platics).Don't worry though I'm starting to see systems that are holding up and CLEAR inside surface after 40 years.Not gonna happen with cast.Still like PVC.

I understand the reasoning behind installing cast for noise and non-combustion.But I'm an advocate for all underground be installed in non corrosive plastic.Yeah,you guys have basements and subfloors.No big deal keep hangin'cast till your hearts content.Easiest swap out for killer profits, I love doing it.
The problem comes into play when you put the ancient design were an extreme amount of resources are needed to replace.It's not easy for me to explain that I need tear ones structure apart one day to replce,then install the same junk in the ground on a new project the next.

I prefer PVC to CI, excluding the sound reduction factor.

To be clear, because I'm not sure what ya meant with the "maffia" comment.
We cannot use plastic under CI here, weight and thermal expansion are a factor.

If I gave in to the one of 500 requests I get a year to do it the cheaper way, the inspector wants my name when the home is flagged as they try to sell it.

I get tagged for not pulling permits.

I have seen this happen, it sucks to be the plumber in that case.

Sometimes I wonder if it's just as easy to be a hack, work without a license, skip the insurance and get cash payments.

I lose work, somebody makes a buck...then I go online and rant n' rave about DIY'ers.:mad:

[NHMaster3015]

Just looked it up in case any one wants to try it.

600' of 3" Foamcore=630lbs. Good luck. :rolleyes:

J.C.


Oh you're no fun anymore " Monty Python"

[drtyhands]

I prefer PVC to CI, excluding the sound reduction factor.

To be clear, because I'm not sure what ya meant with the "maffia" comment.
We cannot use plastic under CI here, weight and thermal expansion are a factor.

If I gave in to the one of 500 requests I get a year to do it the cheaper way, the inspector wants my name when the home is flagged as they try to sell it.

I get tagged for not pulling permits.

I have seen this happen, it sucks to be the plumber in that case.

Sometimes I wonder if it's just as easy to be a hack, work without a license, skip the insurance and get cash payments.

I lose work, somebody makes a buck...then I go online and rant n' rave about DIY'ers.:mad:

Mafia means to me that it makes no sense other than putting money in the decision makers pocket.

I don't doubt you Duck or mean to diss.
For discussion's sake;
When we continue cast on top of plastic most of the more knowledgeable inspectors will ask us to take some of the weight off by supporting the cast.I'm picturing all the different riser scenarios I utilize in my groundworks.In most cases risers don't excede 24".Hell,if they want I'll run my risers down through concrete to within a couple inches of the fitting it serves.

[JCsPlumbing]

I use riserclamps no matter what on any vertical cast.

J.C.

[drtyhands]

I use riserclamps no matter what on any vertical cast.

J.C.

At slab on grade elevation?



You watchin' de lymps

[JCsPlumbing]

I might be ignorant to what "slab on grade elevation means". When it goes vertical in the walls & chases at ANY level I'll frame in and install them.

J.C.

[drtyhands]

I might be ignorant to what "slab on grade elevation means". When it goes vertical in the walls & chases at ANY level I'll frame in and install them.

J.C.

Not anymore:D

"slab on grade" is a term the architect will use on the plans to quickly reference the fact that the floor of the structure is a concrete slab poured on grade/soil.I was asking because plumbers usually don't put them on this elevation.

[JCsPlumbing]

Gotcha. I have seen the term. Yes, I'll put them there also. Might be overkill but I prefer to err on the stable side. And if you're making PVC to CI transitions then you obviously remove the stress on that lowest fitting.

Sounds like you do alot of large commercial. I don't. But I'd still put in the riser clamps on all vertical cast. :rolleyes:

J.C.

[DuckButter]

Mafia means to me that it makes no sense other than putting money in the decision makers pocket.

I don't doubt you Duck or mean to diss.
For discussion's sake;
When we continue cast on top of plastic most of the more knowledgeable inspectors will ask us to take some of the weight off by supporting the cast.I'm picturing all the different riser scenarios I utilize in my groundworks.In most cases risers don't excede 24".Hell,if they want I'll run my risers down through concrete to within a couple inches of the fitting it serves.

I know ya wouldn't insult me unless for the sake of humor, or I did something heinous to earn it.

But word to the wise, next time I send my boyz vinny & guido to have a lil' talk with ya.

[drtyhands]

I know ya wouldn't insult me unless for the sake of humor, or I did something heinous to earn it.

But word to the wise, next time I send my boyz vinny & guido to have a lil' talk with ya.

Cousin Vinny and Brother Guido.
A lawyer and a rat.Two different families no less.Nice.

[where am i]

in chicago we still use clay pipe.and C I thru the wall
no plastic underground. ive never seen abs

[JCsPlumbing]

I thought clay pipe went out with powdered wigs.

Is that lady in Chicago still in charge of the Federal ADA Code? :confused:

J.C.

[Service Guy]

I thought clay pipe went out with powdered wigs.

Is that lady in Chicago still in charge of the Federal ADA Code? :confused:

J.C.

:killingme:

[drtyhands]

in chicago we still use clay pipe.and C I thru the wall
no plastic underground. ive never seen abs

Clay pipe=Roots
Looks like Ducks boys Have a little pull in the windy city.

[where am i]

i don't know who is in charge of the ADA

clay pipe by the truck load and a ton of money rodding
and the way the mayor plants trees means job security.

[DuckButter]

Clay pipe=Roots
Looks like Ducks boys Have a little pull in the windy city.

Clay?
Not here buddy!

[toolaholic]

CAST IRON, and clay are good for temporary drainage . PVC IS THE REAL DEAL

[where am i]

CAST IRON, and clay are good for temporary drainage . PVC IS THE REAL DEAL

i don't right the codes

persnally i dont like plastic been doing CI copper s w t all my life
no pro pess, pex, qest un of that CRAP

[NHMaster3015]

WoW an old school guy.

[wrench spinner]

CAST IRON, and clay are good for temporary drainage . PVC IS THE REAL DEAL

I dont know any fool can glue pipe only a real man can pack and pour a joint!!

Lead.... Not just for pacifiers! and Paint!

[toolaholic]

Thanks. I knew some DUMMY would bite

[NHMaster3015]

I think I have a few lengths of Orangeburg under the barn:D

[wrench spinner]

Thanks. I knew some DUMMY would bite

I was just joshin' ya buddy!! please don't take any offense. I have NO problem with PVC underground I know that it is better but you have to do what code requires! I have installed MILES of 8" SDR sewer and just about the same in Ductile Iron water and I know that the Sewers will simply outlast the watermain granted it is over a timeframe of a hundred or more years!

[Plumbus]

I was wondering when someone would mention SDR ("Standard Dimension Ratio") pipe. Spinner, would the pipe you installed be 11, 26 or 35? 35's a bit thin walled but legal in CA for building sewers. I remember testing my first SDR 35 lateral with water and having all the cleanout risers pop out of the combos due to pressure. Removed the CO plugs and eliminated the problem. Learning curve....

[wrench spinner]

SDR-35 for gravity, 21 for force mains and water. What were you testing to that the co's would pop out?

[Plumbus]

Building sewer tested to grade. No place for the displaced air to go. Gaskets wouldn't hold. Risers popped out of the ground.

[wrench spinner]

i need to rephrase that what pressure were you air testing the SDR to? Normally we would only pressureize to 5 psi

[Herk]

Although we've used ABS for years here, I'm seeing more PVC at the supply houses. It's true that PVC is superior to ABS. It isn't perfect, though. For example, never cut PVC in cold weather. Make sure the room is about 50 degrees minimum or the stuff shatters like glass. It's really annoying to shove a piece of pipe into a tee and have the tee go to pieces.

And PVC also tends to make more noise than ABS. It will squeak like a mouse being drawn and quartered when expanding against wood splinters. (Don't ask me how I know about the mouse . . .)

And the reason there's cell core ABS is because manufacturers wanted to make more pipe with less raw product. I would far prefer to use the original solid pipe.

[drtyhands]

Although we've used ABS for years here, I'm seeing more PVC at the supply houses. It's true that PVC is superior to ABS. It isn't perfect, though. For example, never cut PVC in cold weather. Make sure the room is about 50 degrees minimum or the stuff shatters like glass. It's really annoying to shove a piece of pipe into a tee and have the tee go to pieces.

And PVC also tends to make more noise than ABS. It will squeak like a mouse being drawn and quartered when expanding against wood splinters. (Don't ask me how I know about the mouse . . .)

And the reason there's cell core ABS is because manufacturers wanted to make more pipe with less raw product. I would far prefer to use the original solid pipe.

Nice tips on the temperature Herk.As far as binding on wood and squeking,homeowners nowadays know it's unnacceptible and demand the walls/ceiling be opened up and have the situation remedeed.We rarely use 2X materal for floor joist so I'm not too concerned with overboring another 1/2" larger than the standard 2-1/8_2-9/16 to allow for more expansion.Also myself and the guys try to pay close attention to hole "grade alignment",drilling the hole not only straight but also with the grade of the pipe.

[JCsPlumbing]

This is my experience. I have cut PVC with a mitre saw, sawzall, and handsaw at less than 40 degrees without it "shattering like glass". There is a low temperature range for the glue though.

J.C.

[JCsPlumbing]

I also have no idea what Herk is talking about when saying "having a tee go to pieces." ???????:confused:

I don't know how many tees I've installed without ever anything remotely like this. Now they do make some super light PVC and fittings that in my opinion is absolute garbage. Barely good enough for a gutter drain.

Charlotte Sch. 40 foamcore minimum. Charlotte true-fit fittings.

J.C.

[DuckButter]

Although we've used ABS for years here, I'm seeing more PVC at the supply houses. It's true that PVC is superior to ABS. It isn't perfect, though. For example, never cut PVC in cold weather. Make sure the room is about 50 degrees minimum or the stuff shatters like glass. It's really annoying to shove a piece of pipe into a tee and have the tee go to pieces.

And PVC also tends to make more noise than ABS. It will squeak like a mouse being drawn and quartered when expanding against wood splinters. (Don't ask me how I know about the mouse . . .)

And the reason there's cell core ABS is because manufacturers wanted to make more pipe with less raw product. I would far prefer to use the original solid pipe.
:lol::lol::lol::lol: