Russia / Georgian conflict

[Service Guy]

Doesn't look good. Hopefully Russia backs off.
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,3475955,00.html

[Service Guy]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7550354.stm

[Service Guy]

The russians have finally withdrawn their forces from attacking Georgia. It looks like this could be the beginning of a new era 'cold war.'

[Masterplumb]

Are you having fun responding to yourself? :have-fun:

[garager]

He's bored............... :groucho: :D

[DuckButter]

Heard all about this...apparently George W sent peace-keeping troops to Atlanta in his confusion...

[wrench spinner]

Heard all about this...apparently George W sent peace-keeping troops to Atlanta in his confusion...

:rotflmao1:
That just ain't right!!!

[DuckButter]

:rotflmao1:
That just ain't right!!!

Oh, but thats not all...he even considered using some o dat "noocyuler" stuff.

[Service Guy]

On a serious note...McCain has taken a very hard stance against Russia in all of this. He is unequivocally supporting our Georgian allies and their bid to join NATO. I think its a smart move for him to show his stance clearly, even if Russia gets upset....screw them.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080812/pl_afp/usvotegeorgiarussiaconflictmccain

[Masterplumb]

On a serious note...McCain has taken a very hard stance against Russia in all of this. He is unequivocally supporting our Georgian allies and their bid to join NATO. I think its a smart move for him to show his stance clearly, even if Russia gets upset....screw them.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080812/pl_afp/usvotegeorgiarussiaconflictmccain

Throughout the years we've always tried to piss Russia off, why stop now?

McCain takes a hard stance on this serious issue and BH Obama is getting a.....er......tan in Hawaii right now? :way-to-go:

[levon]

i wish we would try to take care of the us and not worry about russia or georgia or irac. but since dubya has no clue how to manage the economy or energy crisis or the price of oil, i guess he is gonna try and be rambo again andd get into something else he cant handle.

[Masterplumb]

i wish we would try to take care of the us and not worry about russia or georgia or irac. but since dubya has no clue how to manage the economy or energy crisis or the price of oil, i guess he is gonna try and be rambo again andd get into something else he cant handle.

What news have you been watching? They are an ally and we are sending humanitarian aid, do you really believe that is something we can't handle. Thats what friends do, you help out in times of need. I would hate to have to rely on you in a time of need.

In case you haven't heard we ARE winning the war in Iraq, well maybe you havent heard as the liberal media doesn't report on it since the surge has paid big dividends. Al-Sadr and his Mahdi Army have laid down their arms as well, Iraq is in charge of all but 2 provinces, they have told us they are ready to have us leave, so I guess we did something right.

[levon]

from the news i was watchiing today bushy sounded like he was sabrerattling again. i think our military has done a great job in irac, i have relatives in the service. i also know if we leave iraq now or 100 years from now, the moment we leave, the fighting will start again. i worry about these groups like alqueda, i know they have beem reduced, but not sure how we can ever change that mindset.

[myakka]

Gentlemen, this is a show of force for the re consolidation of the soviet union.Putin is and shall always be KGB. Now that they have petroleum money, the old Stalinist ways are returning. Only a strong response to back our ally Georgia, with troops, will deter Putin.
If you are looking for "blood for oil" this is it! Not by the US but by Russia.
Mike

[ToUtahNow]

from the news i was watchiing today bushy sounded like he was sabrerattling again. i think our military has done a great job in irac, i have relatives in the service. i also know if we leave iraq now or 100 years from now, the moment we leave, the fighting will start again. i worry about these groups like alqueda, i know they have beem reduced, but not sure how we can ever change that mindset.

I doubt the fighting will ever end as it is so much a part of their history. However, I would like to see a democratic government in place rather than Sharia Law. The stronger the current Iraqi government gets the strong the possibility Sharia Law will not take over. The better life is for the citizens the less likely they will support the insurgents.

Some here are aware my son Jaysen adopted a school in Iraq while stationed there. We sent a ton of things over to help him out. Acts like this whether they be by an individual or a government will show the locals we are sincere in improving their well being.

Mark

[cpw]

Gentlemen, this is a show of force for the re consolidation of the soviet union.Putin is and shall always be KGB. Now that they have petroleum money, the old Stalinist ways are returning. Only a strong response to back our ally Georgia, with troops, will deter Putin.
If you are looking for "blood for oil" this is it! Not by the US but by Russia.
Mike
This is why I think the US should push for fast tracking the Ukraine's application into NATO.

[DUNBAR]

And where's Obama in all this?


Is he capable of showing direction in the representation of our country in times like these, or consider it a cowl-down and say here, will money make this go away?


I just haven't heard anything on his stance, yet. Enlighten me by linking me please.

[ToUtahNow]

And where's Obama in all this?


Is he capable of showing direction in the representation of our country in times like these, or consider it a cowl-down and say here, will money make this go away?


I just haven't heard anything on his stance, yet. Enlighten me by linking me please.

I believe he is on vacation in Hawaii right now. Perhaps he turned his cell phone off.

Mark

[JCsPlumbing]

Maybe he's like me and doesn't have cable & is on dialup. Takes awhile for that page to load. Did you know the olympics has started? I just found out.

J.C.

[ToUtahNow]

Maybe he's like me and doesn't have cable & is on dialup. Takes awhile for that page to load. Did you know the olympics has started? I just found out.

J.C.

You made me laugh but the truth is those of us who have all of that forget what the World was like before we had it.

Mark

[NorthernIllinoisPlumber]

Heard all about this...apparently George W sent peace-keeping troops to Atlanta in his confusion...

There seems to be a lot of confusion.

http://www.cynical-c.com/?p=11216#comments

[levon]

you guys are funny. as much as i dislike bush, i have to agree, im really scared of obama. he wants to be president so bad he will change his mind or say anything to get elected. i better be quiet now lol

[DuckButter]

There seems to be a lot of confusion.

http://www.cynical-c.com/?p=11216#comments

The typo's gave it away...someone yanking chains...still pretty funny though.

[ToUtahNow]

The typo's gave it away...someone yanking chains...still pretty funny though.

What typos?

Mark

[levon]

i paid good money to have a nice computer that types letters in there that i dont want!

[Frankiarmz]

you guys are funny. as much as i dislike bush, i have to agree, im really scared of obama. he wants to be president so bad he will change his mind or say anything to get elected. i better be quiet now lol

Early on I considered voting for Obama because I did not like some of McCain's positions on certain issues, but after watching how both these candidates responded to this conflict McCain clearly had the presence of a world leader. I was happy to see sadaam overthrown by the USA, and nothing would make me happier or more proud of President Bush than to see him back down the russians! Do you guys think russian troops will attack our troops ?

[cpw]

Early on I considered voting for Obama because I did not like some of McCain's positions on certain issues, but after watching how both these candidates responded to this conflict McCain clearly had the presence of a world leader. I was happy to see sadaam overthrown by the USA, and nothing would make me happier or more proud of President Bush than to see him back down the russians! Do you guys think russian troops will attack our troops ?
I hope not and I really hope we aren't in a position to find out. That is why I think we should push for Ukrainian NATO membership. Russia has basically slapped Georgia around (one could argue the Georgians kind of poked Russian in the eye); and is reasserting control over them. I think it wouldn't be wise to clearly take sides here, but if we enter into an alliance like NATO it would draw a line in the sand (snow?) indicating to Moscow that there would be serious consequences to attacking their Western-friendly neighbor and attempting to reassert influence.

At least when our only enemy was the Russians the world was a very predictable place, because we studied them and they studied us. We each knew with a good degree of confidence how the othe would respond in most situations.

[NHMaster3015]

Didn't Barack tell them to stop fighting pretty please? We're all one big global society right fellas? Can't we all just get along?

Anyone remember Neville Chamberlain?

[ToUtahNow]

Didn't Barack tell them to stop fighting pretty please? We're all one big global society right fellas? Can't we all just get along?

Anyone remember Neville Chamberlain?

My understanding is Obama has agreed to give Russia the entire South (excluding Florida) if their citizens vote for him.

Mark

[levon]

this is funny, id criticise obama, but mccain dont look much better. it seems that weve really run out of great candidates to choose from!

[levon]

i cannot stomach obama, i know mccain has done a lot of flip flops but he does seem to have a better sense of where we should be heading in our country. i am an independant. its evident mccain is intelligent,whetther you like what he says or not. i just hope we never elect another person the party says is smart when he cant put together a full sentence! our present president has been the worst on the economy since and maybe even including hoover! why does our political system consist of left wing loons and right wing idiots??????????

[Masterplumb]

i cannot stomach obama, i know mccain has done a lot of flip flops but he does seem to have a better sense of where we should be heading in our country. i am an independant. its evident mccain is intelligent,whetther you like what he says or not. i just hope we never elect another person the party says is smart when he cant put together a full sentence! our present president has been the worst on the economy since and maybe even including hoover! why does our political system consist of left wing loons and right wing idiots??????????

It is evident that you have been spraying chemicals for far too long.

I am not a huge G.W. Bush fan but to call the man stupid for the way he talks is like calling someone ignorant because they dont type correctly, i.e. they don't capitalize new sentences, spell incorrectly or don't use apostraphe's where appropriate. See red highlights above. :eek:

McCain = Win the war
Obama = Surrender/retreat today will change tommorow

McCain = Drill in Anwr & create 40 nuke power plants
Obama = Fill your tires and tune your car

McCain = Tax cuts to stimulate the economy, extend the Bush tax cuts
Obama = impose windfall profit taxes, which will no doubtedly be passed on to you and me. Let the Bush tax cuts expire which will automatically increase income tax burdeons by at least $1,500.

McCain = A tortured P.O.W. war hero who wouldn't leave his fellow soldiers when he was allowed to leave. He and his wife have 2 children currently serving in Iraq.
Obama= Sat in a racist church for over 20 years, has a wife who hasn't been proud of this country in her adulthood. Who also stated "America in 2008 is a downright mean country".

Obama is for partial birth abortions. If you dont know what that means, please look it up on the internet.

Obama is for wealth distribution, he wants to tax the people that work hard for their money and give it to others in forms of social programs.

Obama said he wants to invade Pakistan.

Refers to his grandmother as "a typical white person" WTF???? Imagine if McCain said the opposite?

I can go on and on but it doesn't even matter anymore.

http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedImages/Stories/Politics/Election_2008/barack%20obama%20and%20rev.%20jeremiah%20wright.jp g

[myakka]

i wish we would try to take care of the us and not worry about russia or georgia or irac. but since dubya has no clue how to manage the economy or energy crisis or the price of oil, i guess he is gonna try and be rambo again andd get into something else he cant handle.
Levon
I'm no fan of this president, but no president runs our economy. We run it. If you have confidence enough to buy things other than food or gas then our economy will grow.
As for the rest of your post, no disrespect but, diplomacy with out the will to back it up is nothing but talk. Russia is annexing Georgia, maybe not all of it, but all the parts Russia wants. Russia does not believe in the theory of fossil fuel like we do. They believe that petrolium is made from heat and pressure exerted on natural hydrocarbons with trace biologicals. Too much heat/pressure, you get natural gas. Too little and you get coal. Thier goal is communism funded by oil.( See Hugo Chavez)

Mike
Yes its that simple

[levon]

Masterplumb

i agree with everything you just said including my lousy typing. i am sure i will vote for mccain, but just because im no great typist or a member of either party, i still have a right to voice an opinion and im glad for that. i dont let other people's opinions make me that upset as to impose my opinion on them and say they are completely wrong. i may be wrong, but isnt this the great thing about living in a free country! i can have an opinion. i am sorry if i upset you. i will try and keep off politics in the future. i truly am new and dont need any enemies on this forum.

[Masterplumb]

Masterplumb

i agree with everything you just said including my lousy typing. i am sure i will vote for mccain, but just because im no great typist or a member of either party, i still have a right to voice an opinion and im glad for that. i dont let other people's opinions make me that upset as to impose my opinion on them and say they are completely wrong. i may be wrong, but isnt this the great thing about living in a free country! i can have an opinion. i am sorry if i upset you. i will try and keep off politics in the future. i truly am new and dont need any enemies on this forum.

Thats my point. You basically called Bush a dummy because of how he talks, I actually said that is like calling someone ignorant because of their typing, I agree it's a dumb thing to say.

You did NOT upset me, as I hope you will stick around and see that politics gets pretty heated here and it's not for the weak hearted. You are not anyones enemy because of political affiliation or lack thereof. I am a guest here as are you. It is a free country and you are entitled to your opinion no matter what it is. Welcome. :angel:

[levon]

I have to admit i went overboard criticising Bush. Thanks for the welcome. Who knows it might have taken longer to talk with you if we hadnt had this political discussion. :lol: You have a great night!

[Tyman]

Masterplumb,

Your choice of avatars have caused me some problems.:D First you grossed my wife out with that buck tooth guy and now you have Team hater on there. Please change it! Please, I beg you.

I really don't understand all that is going on with Russia and Georgia. I am really hoping that the cold war mindset does not escalate. I already know where I am putting my bomb shelter.;)

[Masterplumb]

Masterplumb,

Your choice of avatars have caused me some problems.:D First you grossed my wife out with that buck tooth guy and now you have Team hater on there. Please change it! Please, I beg you.

I really don't understand all that is going on with Russia and Georgia. I am really hoping that the cold war mindset does not escalate. I already know where I am putting my bomb shelter.;)


I will soon change it for you daniel-san as I dont want you to steal my peach. :scratchhead:

[Service Guy]

It is evident that you have been spraying chemicals for far too long.

I am not a huge G.W. Bush fan but to call the man stupid for the way he talks is like calling someone ignorant because they dont type correctly, i.e. they don't capitalize new sentences, spell incorrectly or don't use apostraphe's where appropriate. See red highlights above. :eek:

McCain = Win the war
Obama = Surrender/retreat today will change tommorow

McCain = Drill in Anwr & create 40 nuke power plants
Obama = Fill your tires and tune your car

McCain = Tax cuts to stimulate the economy, extend the Bush tax cuts
Obama = impose windfall profit taxes, which will no doubtedly be passed on to you and me. Let the Bush tax cuts expire which will automatically increase income tax burdeons by at least $1,500.

McCain = A tortured P.O.W. war hero who wouldn't leave his fellow soldiers when he was allowed to leave. He and his wife have 2 children currently serving in Iraq.
Obama= Sat in a racist church for over 20 years, has a wife who hasn't been proud of this country in her adulthood. Who also stated "America in 2008 is a downright mean country".

Obama is for partial birth abortions. If you dont know what that means, please look it up on the internet.

Obama is for wealth distribution, he wants to tax the people that work hard for their money and give it to others in forms of social programs.

Obama said he wants to invade Pakistan.

Refers to his grandmother as "a typical white person" WTF???? Imagine if McCain said the opposite?

I can go on and on but it doesn't even matter anymore.



As usual masterplumb brings an extremely fair, balanced, impartial perspective of the presidential race...:rolleyes:

[woodenstickers]

It is evident that you have been spraying chemicals for far too long.

I am not a huge G.W. Bush fan but to call the man stupid for the way he talks is like calling someone ignorant because they dont type correctly, i.e. they don't capitalize new sentences, spell incorrectly or don't use apostraphe's where appropriate. See red highlights above. :eek:

McCain = Win the war
Obama = Surrender/retreat today will change tommorow

McCain = Drill in Anwr & create 40 nuke power plants
Obama = Fill your tires and tune your car

McCain = Tax cuts to stimulate the economy, extend the Bush tax cuts
Obama = impose windfall profit taxes, which will no doubtedly be passed on to you and me. Let the Bush tax cuts expire which will automatically increase income tax burdeons by at least $1,500.

McCain = A tortured P.O.W. war hero who wouldn't leave his fellow soldiers when he was allowed to leave. He and his wife have 2 children currently serving in Iraq.
Obama= Sat in a racist church for over 20 years, has a wife who hasn't been proud of this country in her adulthood. Who also stated "America in 2008 is a downright mean country".

Obama is for partial birth abortions. If you dont know what that means, please look it up on the internet.

Obama is for wealth distribution, he wants to tax the people that work hard for their money and give it to others in forms of social programs.

Obama said he wants to invade Pakistan.

Refers to his grandmother as "a typical white person" WTF???? Imagine if McCain said the opposite?

I can go on and on but it doesn't even matter anymore.

http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedImages/Stories/Politics/Election_2008/barack%20obama%20and%20rev.%20jeremiah%20wright.jp g

Are you really equating posting on a tool forum with being the president? :killingme:


http://www.bhopal.net/otherbhopals/archives/saddam+rumsfeld.jpg

http://blog.reidreport.com/uploaded_images/bush_holds_hand-732456.jpg

Thing is, you are right about a lot of the Obama stuff, but a lot of it is pretty hilarious in a real political discussion. In a lot of cases Obama did flip flop based on public opinion, and I don't agree with many of his new stances. I can say that I hope anyone who is going to do something as important as McCain and Obama are trying to do should be allowed, willing and able to change their mind based on learning more about a subject. There are many factors in these issues for someone who really has to make decisions to consider. For them to know in time for pre-election press conferences what needs to be done and never waiver from that decision is unreasonable at best and dangerous at worst. I don't have the time or patience to show you all the places McCain "flip flopped" (anwar), made stupid and useless suggestions to the fuel issue (gas tax holiday) etc. Both of these guys are tools.

You are as funny as the libs who got all upset about the "bomb Iran" song McCain sang. Obama hates his own gramma cuz she's white? McCain wants our next four generations to fight 'n die in Iraq?? :rolleyes:

Trying to talk sense and facts with extremest reactionaries from either side who are willing to suspend reality in favor of the gotcha is tiring. rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. I guess we'll all go down together.

In the meantime, remember how the US beat the USSR in the cold war? Bankrupted 'em and watched them get in a long lasting and expensive war in Afghanistan. No shots fired by us. We are primed for that same fate by China any time they want. And what do China, owners of our economic fate--yes thank in HUGE part to the non-tax and borrow republicans--have in common with the USSR? Oh yeah! They are both gigantic communist and oppressive empires.

But hey, which candidate has got a better wife?

Seriously, Most of the reasons you listed for picking one candidate over another, in this case McCain over Obama are perfectly good and reasonable. I may not agree with them, but I can't do anything but respect your view on the subject. Why the need to sully that with nonsense? "Said he wants to invade Pakistan"? I don't see the point.


Eli

[Service Guy]

Seriously, Most of the reasons you listed for picking one candidate over another, in this case McCain over Obama are perfectly good and reasonable. I may not agree with them, but I can't do anything but respect your view on the subject. Why the need to sully that with nonsense? "Said he wants to invade Pakistan"? I don't see the point.


Eli

Because spewing propaganda is more fun than simply stating the facts. Even if it does come off as ignorant.
I agree with you though, I can't take anyone seriously when they start in with such a prejudiced, narrow stance.

[woodenstickers]

Refers to his grandmother as "a typical white person" WTF???? Imagine if McCain said the opposite?

See here is what I am talking about too. You have to reach pretty hard to really be offended by this. His grandmother IS white, so the analogy would not be if McCain said the opposite, the analogy would be him saying the exact same thing. If McCain called his Grandma a typical white person in the context of explaining his background and who he is in relation to the country it wouldn't hurt anyones feelings.

Again, I think you are playing the same game you denounce by doing this. Maybe fighting fire with fire is your secret plan, and you are trying to point out how ridiculous PC police have gotten by being just as silly and acting offended as a satire. But if so it is over my head. To me you are playing the same PC card as the people who scream discrimination or campaign to get people fired for "insensitivity" or sue at the drop of a hat. I don't respect that tactic. It's opportunistic, it's weak and it's hurting discourse and this country.

And before you tell me to go back to Canada if I don't like it, honestly one of the reasons I like it here better is because Canada is even more PC and Europe even more than Canada. The US is headed that way too, but fast.


Eli

[Service Guy]

Alright, back on the actual topic.

Latest news. Russia just will not co-operate with the western world. It appears a second cold war era may be dawning.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/georgia_ossetia_dc;_ylt=Aie7OF2b6Vu0Scwfcjx01CAwvG UD

[woodenstickers]

Alright, back on the actual topic.

Latest news. Russia just will not co-operate with the western world. It appears a second cold war era may be dawning.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/georgia_ossetia_dc;_ylt=Aie7OF2b6Vu0Scwfcjx01CAwvG UD

This subject is too complicated for me to grasp. I don't know much about the history of that area, and I can't bring myself to trust any media source to really inform me very quickly. I just hope we can make oil obsolete soon so it becomes harder for rouge nations to gain economic power without having to co-operate with everyone else. But I know it is not that simple.


Eli

[ToUtahNow]

See here is what I am talking about too. You have to reach pretty hard to really be offended by this. His grandmother IS white, so the analogy would not be if McCain said the opposite, the analogy would be him saying the exact same thing. If McCain called his Grandma a typical white person in the context of explaining his background and who he is in relation to the country it wouldn't hurt anyones feelings.

Again, I think you are playing the same game you denounce by doing this. Maybe fighting fire with fire is your secret plan, and you are trying to point out how ridiculous PC police have gotten by being just as silly and acting offended as a satire. But if so it is over my head. To me you are playing the same PC card as the people who scream discrimination or campaign to get people fired for "insensitivity" or sue at the drop of a hat. I don't respect that tactic. It's opportunistic, it's weak and it's hurting discourse and this country.

And before you tell me to go back to Canada if I don't like it, honestly one of the reasons I like it here better is because Canada is even more PC and Europe even more than Canada. The US is headed that way too, but fast.


Eli

I think it pretty much is a non-issue but you have to admit had McCain said his daughter from Bangladesh "reacted like a typical black girl" it would have been a big deal.

Mark

[ToUtahNow]

This subject is too complicated for me to grasp. I don't know much about the history of that area, and I can't bring myself to trust any media source to really inform me very quickly. I just hope we can make oil obsolete soon so it becomes harder for rouge nations to gain economic power without having to co-operate with everyone else. But I know it is not that simple.


Eli

As I understand the history of the area is they were the Kingdom of Georgia 900 or so years ago. At one point or another they have been absorbed by land grabs. In the breakup of the Soviet Union they became an independent country again. Some citizens in two of the States decided they wanted to succeed and become part of Russia. Russia is now destroying both the military and the infrastructure of Georgia during the cease fire as they have not seen an official signature yet.

Mark

[Frankiarmz]

Guys getting back to the russians and what they are doing in this country, is there absolutely no chance that the USA would step in and kick their butts? This seems like the perfect opportunity to fight for democracy and to stop the russians from acting like the "Borg" on star trek. How much longer do we have to hold off doing what appears to be the right thing at the right time?

[ToUtahNow]

Guys getting back to the russians and what they are doing in this country, is there absolutely no chance that the USA would step in and kick their butts? This seems like the perfect opportunity to fight for democracy and to stop the russians from acting like the "Borg" on star trek. How much longer do we have to hold off doing what appears to be the right thing at the right time?

Of course let's not forget what happened when we tried to help Kuwait after Iraq decided to make Kuwait part of Iraq. I see no difference between the two except that Saddam was also killing and torturing his own people.

Mark

[woodenstickers]

I think it pretty much is a non-issue but you have to admit had McCain said his daughter from Bangladesh "reacted like a typical black girl" it would have been a big deal.

Mark


I agree with that. But if he was saying it in a neutral way only people who are overly PC or have an agenda would complain. If McCain said that his daughter is a typical black girl, and he was saying it with respect and love for her would it really be wrong? If Obama said his wife is a typical black woman it wouldn't be an issue, because he obviously doesn't mean it in a bad way.


The minutiae of it is kind of irrelevant, I know that it is not even in terms of who can say get away with saying what between Black and White, Men and Women, and honestly even liberal and conservative in the liberals favor. My point is that it is all irrelevant and if we agree it is silly we are not helping by engaging in it to "even it out", only perpetuating it. I know that there are liberal flame fanners and opportunists that are wreaking havoc on discourse, it makes me mad. It is destructive to everyone, especially those they are claiming to represent. Believe me, I respect Masterplumber way more than Sharpton. I don't want him to act like him though, I don't like it from anyone.


Eli

[ToUtahNow]

I agree with that. But if he was saying it in a neutral way only people who are overly PC or have an agenda would complain. If McCain said that his daughter is a typical black girl, and he was saying it with respect and love for her would it really be wrong? If Obama said his wife is a typical black woman it wouldn't be an issue, because he obviously doesn't mean it in a bad way.


The minutiae of it is kind of irrelevant, I know that it is not even in terms of who can say get away with saying what between Black and White, Men and Women, and honestly even liberal and conservative in the liberals favor. My point is that it is all irrelevant and if we agree it is silly we are not helping by engaging in it to "even it out", only perpetuating it. I know that there are liberal flame fanners and opportunists that are wreaking havoc on discourse, it makes me mad. It is destructive to everyone, especially those they are claiming to represent. Believe me, I respect Masterplumber way more than Sharpton. I don't want him to act like him though, I don't like it from anyone.


Eli

Part of the problem is neither one of us were in the room and we have only heard sound bites. The majority of the people may not have even heard the sound bites and instead only read it or heard it second hand. Unless you were there the statement becomes non dimensional and subject to interpretation. The use of the word "typical" has negative connotations to begin with and was a poor word for a guy as well spoken as Obama.

Forget race, if somebody uses the term "typical plumber" and does not go beyond that is he complimenting the plumber or being negative towards him?

Mark

[woodenstickers]

Of course let's not forget what happened when we tried to help Kuwait after Iraq decided to make Kuwait part of Iraq. I see no difference between the two except that Saddam was also killing and torturing his own people.

Mark

Plus can we really afford it, in treasure or military? There are and will continue to be humanitarian disasters that deserve attention too. A member of the opposition party that was running against Mugabe in Zimbabwe had his wife tortured to death just prior to the "election" last month by Mugabe's militia. This is where I get confused by conflicts we are supposed to get involved in. There is genocide in Africa. Right now. Today. Fixing elections. Torturing opposition. Cutting off of hands and feet, murdering of babies.

Russia could gain power and pose a threat to us again, but China has power and poses a threat right now. Saddam murdered Iraqi Citizens who were against him politically, brutally and with malice, but we were allies well after that came to light. We were concerned he might sponsor terrorism, but we know for certain that Saudi Arabia does, and funds radical anti American groups right in the US! It's not even a secret.

It really seems like our only enemies are those who threaten the wealth of our country. China makes us money. Saudi Arabia makes us money. They can torture people, sell their prisoners' organs, fund temples and provide them with Islamic texts that call for the murder of western infidels, and other countries can fund militias to maim and destroy and terrorize their populace as long as it doesn't affect the bottom line of the people in power negatively.

I truly don't get it.:shrug:


Eli

[woodenstickers]

Part of the problem is neither one of us were in the room and we have only heard sound bites. The majority of the people may not have even heard the sound bites and instead only read it or heard it second hand. Unless you were there the statement becomes non dimensional and subject to interpretation. The use of the word "typical" has negative connotations to begin with and was a poor word for a guy as well spoken as Obama.

Forget race, if somebody uses the term "typical plumber" and does not go beyond that is he complimenting the plumber or being negative towards him?

Mark


Point taken. Where the rubber hits the road would it be a typical reaction of white women of her generation to feel apprehensive if a group of unknown black males approached them on the street? Should everyone deny that that happens, or should they be admonished if they say it does happen, or even if they think it is typical but it really isn't?

That is a hypothetical question for our purposes Mark, because we can't really discuss these issues openly. Part of that is because it is such a sore subject it has been buried to the point we can't even acknowledge it, and we only do if we are using it as a weapon politically.

I'm no stranger to racism. I've been with my friends when they were pulled over for DWB, and I've been attacked physically and verbally for being white. Jesus, I was threatened with a knife last week downtown SF by some crazy a-hole who wanted to harass me because I'm white. I have a black friend who I know very well, and know very well was not doing anything illegal beaten by the cops and I had a white roommate who never drove anywhere without drugs to sell who always sped, ran stop signs and even when he did get pulled over was never searched.

It's all real. It's all taboo. If we get even more ridiculous about it it will just fester more. I don't even pretend it is fixable, but I don't pretend it doesn't exist either.


But you are right, as a politician Obama shouldn't use words like that. But I agreed with him when he said unless we are going to have a real conversation about race in America it is moot.

Eli

[stokefire7]

there's a 90,000 barrel a day pipeline down to the black sea in that neighborhood. huh, go figure.

[Masterplumb]

As usual masterplumb brings an extremely fair, balanced, impartial perspective of the presidential race...:rolleyes:

Show me anything I wrote that was untrue. Thanks in advance Carl.

[ToUtahNow]

But I agreed with him when he said unless we are going to have a real conversation about race in America it is moot.

Eli

The problem as a politician is you have to consider the consequences of having a real conversation about race in America. Obama's cronies went after Bill and Hillary and accused them of using race against Obama and now they are doing the same thing with McCain. It is one thing to talk the talk and another thing to walk the walk. Obama may have been the great uniter we all needed but I'm afraid the bright lights have clouded his judgement.

Mark

[Service Guy]

Show me anything I wrote that was untrue. Thanks in advance Carl.

You post was so extremely one-sided its not even worth a response.

[Masterplumb]

Are you really equating posting on a tool forum with being the president? :killingme:


http://www.bhopal.net/otherbhopals/archives/saddam+rumsfeld.jpg

http://blog.reidreport.com/uploaded_images/bush_holds_hand-732456.jpg

Thing is, you are right about a lot of the Obama stuff, but a lot of it is pretty hilarious in a real political discussion. In a lot of cases Obama did flip flop based on public opinion, and I don't agree with many of his new stances. I can say that I hope anyone who is going to do something as important as McCain and Obama are trying to do should be allowed, willing and able to change their mind based on learning more about a subject. There are many factors in these issues for someone who really has to make decisions to consider. For them to know in time for pre-election press conferences what needs to be done and never waiver from that decision is unreasonable at best and dangerous at worst. I don't have the time or patience to show you all the places McCain "flip flopped" (anwar), made stupid and useless suggestions to the fuel issue (gas tax holiday) etc. Both of these guys are tools.

Ok Eli great point but you know there is a difference between not wanting to drill in Anwr when oil is $30/barrell and changing your mind to wanting to when oil is $140/barrell. That is a flip flop I think the MAJORITY of Americans can agree on don't you think?

The gas tax holiday? I'm not sure what to think of it, but I can tell you it's a better idean then to tune up your car and check the air pressure.

You are as funny as the libs who got all upset about the "bomb Iran" song McCain sang. Obama hates his own gramma cuz she's white? McCain wants our next four generations to fight 'n die in Iraq?? :rolleyes:

Do you really believe that nonsense about 100 years? Do you know that we still have a military presence in Germany, Italy, South Korea? They have been there for what 50-60 years? They are not in combat but they are still there, strategically placed is that not a bonus? You dont really think he was talking about being in combat for 100 years now do you, I know you better then that.

Trying to talk sense and facts with extremest reactionaries from either side who are willing to suspend reality in favor of the gotcha is tiring. rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. I guess we'll all go down together.

In the meantime, remember how the US beat the USSR in the cold war? Bankrupted 'em and watched them get in a long lasting and expensive war in Afghanistan. No shots fired by us. We are primed for that same fate by China any time they want. And what do China, owners of our economic fate--yes thank in HUGE part to the non-tax and borrow republicans--have in common with the USSR? Oh yeah! They are both gigantic communist and oppressive empires.

Yes I do Eli, It was done by one of the greatest presidents of the 20th century....Ronald Wilson Reagan. I agree with you here, as I said I am not a huge George Walker Bush fan. We need to get our economy back on track and that is why Im voting for McCain and NOT GW Bush. A vote for McCain is a vote for Bush's 3rd term, gotta love that, even it is so far from the truth.



But hey, which candidate has got a better wife?

Say what you want but those quotes came out of her mouth. When you run for president, everything you do is scrutinized. And that is the way it should be.

Seriously, Most of the reasons you listed for picking one candidate over another, in this case McCain over Obama are perfectly good and reasonable. I may not agree with them, but I can't do anything but respect your view on the subject. Why the need to sully that with nonsense? "Said he wants to invade Pakistan"? I don't see the point.

I appreciate the respect. Obama did say he would go into Pakistan with or without permission to try and get UBL, Pakistan has been our most reliable ally out there (not saying that much) but does he realize the chaos it could bring as they do own nuclear weapons.


Eli


BTW, love the picture of Rumsfeld, but that was in the early 80's when we were trying to defeat the huge USSR empire, I guess the lesser of 2 evils. But the pic of Obama and Wright in 2006 when he threw his hat in the ring to be the DNC candidate. There is a big difference. Remember some of the things he preached in his church

Not God bless America....God Damn America
The USKKK of America
America's Chickens have come home to roost

http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedImages/Stories/Politics/Election_2008/barack%20obama%20and%20rev.%20jeremiah%20wright.jp g

[DuckButter]

I may vote for Obama because he wears nice ties.

[Masterplumb]

See here is what I am talking about too. You have to reach pretty hard to really be offended by this. His grandmother IS white, so the analogy would not be if McCain said the opposite, the analogy would be him saying the exact same thing. If McCain called his Grandma a typical white person in the context of explaining his background and who he is in relation to the country it wouldn't hurt anyones feelings.

How about if McCain said something about his "colored daughter that they adopted, would that be ok??

By the way Eli, maybe you can explain to me what a "Typical white person" is?

Again, I think you are playing the same game you denounce by doing this. Maybe fighting fire with fire is your secret plan, and you are trying to point out how ridiculous PC police have gotten by being just as silly and acting offended as a satire. But if so it is over my head. To me you are playing the same PC card as the people who scream discrimination or campaign to get people fired for "insensitivity" or sue at the drop of a hat. I don't respect that tactic. It's opportunistic, it's weak and it's hurting discourse and this country.

What game? Im just telling the truth and people just take it as if Im spinning something, I don't get it.

And before you tell me to go back to Canada if I don't like it, honestly one of the reasons I like it here better is because Canada is even more PC and Europe even more than Canada. The US is headed that way too, but fast.

I would not tell you to go back anywhere Eli, I thought we went down that road already and straightened it all out? Remember the "how dare you" comment?


Eli

!

[ToUtahNow]

By the way has anyone else noticed the slide in the price of oil started when Bush lifted the Executive Order against off-shore drilling? Imagine how low the price could have gone had the vacationing Congress done their job.

Mark

[Masterplumb]

You post was so extremely one-sided its not even worth a response.

No,no,no Carl you said I was spewing propaganda and lies. So again, I ask you to show me what was untrue?

Im sure if you had something negative to say about McCain you would wouldn't you. So come on Carl, lets have it, tell me what I said was untrue? Im waiting.............:kiss:

[Service Guy]

By the way has anyone else noticed the slide in the price of oil started when Bush lifted the Executive Order against off-shore drilling? Imagine how low the price could have gone had the vacationing Congress done their job.

Mark

Actually what I heard was that the price of oil dropped because of decreased demand almost worldwide, not because of off-shore drilling.

[woodenstickers]

The problem as a politician is you have to consider the consequences of having a real conversation about race in America. Obama's cronies went after Bill and Hillary and accused them of using race against Obama and now they are doing the same thing with McCain. It is one thing to talk the talk and another thing to walk the walk. Obama may have been the great uniter we all needed but I'm afraid the bright lights have clouded his judgement.

Mark

You are right again. I think when Obama claimed that McCain was saying he didn't look like a president because he is black it was an out and out falsehood and exactly the same kind of crap I am talking about. I don't give him a free pass for it at all. He lost a lot of credibility at that moment.

I don't think there can be a discussion on race by politicians running for president. I shudder at the thought to be honest. I guess what I was hoping his point was, and what my point is is that not talking about it honestly but still trying to pin people with racial hatred when they break any eggshell rule is not productive. If we use the false context that denies the wide spectrum of prejudice that exists means those gotcha moments are vapor. Call Obama on playing the race card against McCain and I'll agree, but acting like it hurts your feelings that he suggested old white women are afraid of black men is bogus. Both my grandmas harbor prejudice just like what he is talking about. It may very well be typical, and if it isn't, but that is his experience so what? Even if he didn't say it on the radio it would still be true.

But I know that is idealistic and not realistic in politics.

Call people on the politics of race, giving it back to them in kind doesn't help IMO. Someone has to take the high road sometime. I hope?


Eli

[woodenstickers]

By the way has anyone else noticed the slide in the price of oil started when Bush lifted the Executive Order against off-shore drilling? Imagine how low the price could have gone had the vacationing Congress done their job.

Mark

Mark, I replied to this idea in the gulp...oil thread. I would love to get your input on that subject over there if you have the time.


Eli

[woodenstickers]

That is a flip flop I think the MAJORITY of Americans can agree on don't you think?



But that is the definition of a flip flop! And it wasn't back when oil was $30 a barrel he said no to Anwar, it was only a few months ago if that. Don't you think the majority of Americans agree with Obama's "flip-flops" too? That is why they do it.



The gas tax holiday? I'm not sure what to think of it, but I can tell you it's a better idean then to tune up your car and check the air pressure.


What Obama said about tune ups and tire pressure is that the amount of oil that we could get from new drilling would be the same amount saved by taking care of our vehicles. His point was it is only that amount of energy, not that it is THE solution to the problem. The gas tax holiday is bs. The amount of money it would save the average family at the price peak is under $50.


Do you really believe that nonsense about 100 years? Do you know that we still have a military presence in Germany, Italy, South Korea? They have been there for what 50-60 years? They are not in combat but they are still there, strategically placed is that not a bonus? You dont really think he was talking about being in combat for 100 years now do you, I know you better then that.



NO!! I don't believe it, that is my point! And you don't believe that Obama said he "wants to invade Pakistan"!! That is exactly my point. They are both misrepresentations of what they said. Yes, McCain said we may be in Iraq for the next 100 years, for just the reasons you stated. When libs act like he meant something else they are doing the same thing you are with the Pakistan statement.

To clarify why I put thew pic of Rumsfeld and Saddam was just to point out that politicians, even ones you yourself voted into office, will get in bed with nearly anyone if they have to. Both of these men were denounced when they were no longer needed. Again, I don't trust any of them.



Eli

[Masterplumb]

But that is the definition of a flip flop! And it wasn't back when oil was $30 a barrel he said no to Anwar, it was only a few months ago if that. Don't you think the majority of Americans agree with Obama's "flip-flops" too? That is why they do it.

He's had so many, I wouldn't know where to begin..."Iran is not a big threat"........"Iran is a grave threat".....

"Bring the troops home in the first 180 days in office"......."I will make a decision on bringing them home based on what the commanders on the ground tell me"

"We will not drill for oil"......."We may drill for oil".....

"I can no more disown reverend wright then I can disown my grandmother"........."I have parted ways with reverend wright"





What Obama said about tune ups and tire pressure is that the amount of oil that we could get from new drilling would be the same amount saved by taking care of our vehicles. His point was it is only that amount of energy, not that it is THE solution to the problem. The gas tax holiday is bs. The amount of money it would save the average family at the price peak is under $50.

To some family's $50 means alot. Where is the proof or evidence that the amount of oil would be equal to the amount we could get from drilling.....That is BS.





NO!! I don't believe it, that is my point! And you don't believe that Obama said he "wants to invade Pakistan"!! That is exactly my point. They are both misrepresentations of what they said. Yes, McCain said we may be in Iraq for the next 100 years, for just the reasons you stated. When libs act like he meant something else they are doing the same thing you are with the Pakistan statement.

He did say he would go into Pakistan, those were his words

To clarify why I put thew pic of Rumsfeld and Saddam was just to point out that politicians, even ones you yourself voted into office, will get in bed with nearly anyone if they have to. Both of these men were denounced when they were no longer needed. Again, I don't trust any of them.





Eli

:banghead:

[NHMaster3015]

I can't bring myself to trust any media source to really inform me very quickly.

Now you are truley on the path to enlightenment.

Best thing in this entire thread is that I've finally found someone that types worse than me.:D

This whole Georgia thing is politics at it's best. Putin testing the waters to see just how strong or weak the west's resolve is. This incident should serve as a wake up call to those that truley think Mr. Obama has either the resolve or the experiance to get in the middle of this. Somehow 140 days in the Senate and 11 years as a public advocate don't measure up with Mr McCains esperiance. Russia would like nothing better than to see Obama elected because they know he is an appeser an weak on foreign policy.

[woodenstickers]

Dude. Please. Yes he said that he would go into Pakistan to fight terrorists and get Bin Laden if the Pakistani government continues to give them a safe haven by not doing what they say they will do. That is not saying he wants to invade Pakistan. I know you better than this too. I'm exhausted even typing this because WE ALL KNOW IT! It's a frickin straw man. You win, I wasted my time on it, now move the cape, yell "OLE!!" and lets get to the real issues.

You should be happy, Obama has moved in the direction you wanted on all of the issues you claim flip-flop. I am not happy. I don't like his reasoning or his decisions. Now you are complaining that he realizes how right you have been? So if he continued to disagree with you you'd like him better? Look, I get the point, it's political posturing, but no politician keeps their promises. They are all liars. Period.

To some families $50 is a lot, but in terms of fuel costs it is one tank of gas or one third of a tank for me. It is not a long term solution, or even a short term one. And the same hub-bub about oil companies passing the new taxes onto consumers is true about the holiday, the price will rise to what the market will bare.

I'm not even going to argue about the amount of fuel that would be saved by tuning our cars and keeping our tires filled. It was an anecdote not a platform for election. But if you really want to see proof I'm sure it is available online. If there was proof that it was wrong we would have heard about it on the radio a million times and you would have repeated it here on your Obama list a thousand.


Eli

[Masterplumb]

Dude. Please. Yes he said that he would go into Pakistan to fight terrorists and get Bin Laden if the Pakistani government continues to give them a safe haven by not doing what they say they will do. That is not saying he wants to invade Pakistan. I know you better than this too. I'm exhausted even typing this because WE ALL KNOW IT! It's a frickin straw man. You win, I wasted my time on it, now move the cape, yell "OLE!!" and lets get to the real issues.

You should be happy, Obama has moved in the direction you wanted on all of the issues you claim flip-flop. I am not happy. I don't like his reasoning or his decisions. Now you are complaining that he realizes how right you have been? So if he continued to disagree with you you'd like him better? Look, I get the point, it's political posturing, but no politician keeps their promises. They are all liars. Period.

To some families $50 is a lot, but in terms of fuel costs it is one tank of gas or one third of a tank for me. It is not a long term solution, or even a short term one. And the same hub-bub about oil companies passing the new taxes onto consumers is true about the holiday, the price will rise to what the market will bare.

I'm not even going to argue about the amount of fuel that would be saved by tuning our cars and keeping our tires filled. It was an anecdote not a platform for election. But if you really want to see proof I'm sure it is available online. If there was proof that it was wrong we would have heard about it on the radio a million times and you would have repeated it here on your Obama list a thousand.


Eli

I really would rather see the man stick to what he believes in, whatever the hell that may be.

Gas tax holiday = TEMPORARY not permenant

The man said he doesnt have an issue with high cost of fuel, but how fast it went up. So obviously he is ok with the price. Lets see how you spin that one too.

[stokefire7]

U. S. has got 4 billion invested in that piece of pipe

[ToUtahNow]

You are right again. I think when Obama claimed that McCain was saying he didn't look like a president because he is black it was an out and out falsehood and exactly the same kind of crap I am talking about. I don't give him a free pass for it at all. He lost a lot of credibility at that moment.

I don't think there can be a discussion on race by politicians running for president. I shudder at the thought to be honest. I guess what I was hoping his point was, and what my point is is that not talking about it honestly but still trying to pin people with racial hatred when they break any eggshell rule is not productive. If we use the false context that denies the wide spectrum of prejudice that exists means those gotcha moments are vapor. Call Obama on playing the race card against McCain and I'll agree, but acting like it hurts your feelings that he suggested old white women are afraid of black men is bogus. Both my grandmas harbor prejudice just like what he is talking about. It may very well be typical, and if it isn't, but that is his experience so what? Even if he didn't say it on the radio it would still be true.

But I know that is idealistic and not realistic in politics.

Call people on the politics of race, giving it back to them in kind doesn't help IMO. Someone has to take the high road sometime. I hope?


Eli

Well let's look at the statement and try and figure out what he meant. At the same time let's remember he used almost the same words earlier in the primary but used the word black instead of referring to past Presidents. Now consider the three people to have been featured on the dollar bill were Salmon Chase, George Washington and Martha Washington none of which look like "they". If Obama says "they" are going to tell you I don't look like them shouldn't "they" look like them? All three of the people on the dollar bill were clean shaven and one was a women. "They" too are clean shaven so then you have to wonder if in fact Obama did not play the race card with his comment.

Senior Advisor Robert Gibbs was quick to point out there was not an racial reference to Obama's comments.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/08/mccain-camp-coz.html

However, chief strategist, David Axelrod admitted that in fact there was a racial element to the comment.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Politics/Story?id=5495348&page=1

And then finally Obama admitted that there was a racial "dimension" to his comment.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/08/obama-concedes.html

So now the question is who are you going to believe McCain, Obama and Axelrod or Gibbs?

Mark

[DuckButter]

Dude. Please. Yes he said that he would go into Pakistan to fight terrorists and get Bin Laden if the Pakistani government continues to give them a safe haven by not doing what they say they will do. That is not saying he wants to invade Pakistan. I know you better than this too. I'm exhausted even typing this because WE ALL KNOW IT! It's a frickin straw man. You win, I wasted my time on it, now move the cape, yell "OLE!!" and lets get to the real issues.

You should be happy, Obama has moved in the direction you wanted on all of the issues you claim flip-flop. I am not happy. I don't like his reasoning or his decisions. Now you are complaining that he realizes how right you have been? So if he continued to disagree with you you'd like him better? Look, I get the point, it's political posturing, but no politician keeps their promises. They are all liars. Period.

To some families $50 is a lot, but in terms of fuel costs it is one tank of gas or one third of a tank for me. It is not a long term solution, or even a short term one. And the same hub-bub about oil companies passing the new taxes onto consumers is true about the holiday, the price will rise to what the market will bare.

I'm not even going to argue about the amount of fuel that would be saved by tuning our cars and keeping our tires filled. It was an anecdote not a platform for election. But if you really want to see proof I'm sure it is available online. If there was proof that it was wrong we would have heard about it on the radio a million times and you would have repeated it here on your Obama list a thousand.


Eli

Full circle.
Thats why McCain gets my vote.
We can go round and round, over and over debating which guy said the most appealing thing, he said she said, or whodunnit and ran.
In the end it's the track record I'm looking at.

[ToUtahNow]

Full circle.
Thats why McCain gets my vote.
We can go round and round, over and over debating which guy said the most appealing thing, he said she said, or whodunnit and ran.
In the end it's the track record I'm looking at.

Consider as well each candidates position with their parties. McCain is often in trouble because he is at odds with the majority while Obama is the class star because he goes along with everything. I don't like a lot of what McCain stands for but like his mother I will hold my nose and vote for him.

Mark

[DuckButter]

Consider as well each candidates position with their parties. McCain is often in trouble because he is at odds with the majority while Obama is the class star because he goes along with everything. I don't like a lot of what McCain stands for but like his mother I will hold my nose and vote for him.

Mark

Confronted by the fact that most third world countries harbor such hatred for Americans and feel we're soft, so many that have begun to play that card as a tool for their own gain (how many more countries will threaten with nukes or WMD's for some form of leverage?).

I think right now our future hinges on decisions that may not be popular or desireable (Troops in Iraq for example).

I just don't see Obama handling any of it, at least not with his real track record in politics to date.

I think in the global perspective, it may be time to spank the kids.

[stokefire7]

Oh yeah, France was in on the deal too.

[Frankiarmz]

Confronted by the fact that most third world countries harbor such hatred for Americans and feel we're soft, so many that have begun to play that card as a tool for their own gain (how many more countries will threaten with nukes or WMD's for some form of leverage?).

I think right now our future hinges on decisions that may not be popular or desireable (Troops in Iraq for example).

I just don't see Obama handling any of it, at least not with his real track record in politics to date.

I think in the global perspective, it may be time to spank the kids.

If Obama does get elected PResident which could very well happen, I have a feeling he will be forced to man up and real fast. Once he is responsible for the hard decisions there won't be time or wiggle room to step back and take the unpopular choices as he has in the past. He could afford to vote against the war in iraq because it was going to happen with or without him. Can you imagine him being in charge, recieving the same information and ignoring it? I don't think that would or will happen. I absolutely agree that we are past due for spanking the kids, I'd also like to see our russian relatives get a good beating for the way they've acted up. Throwing the UN out of the USA can never be a bad idea either.

[Masterplumb]

If Obama does get elected PResident which could very well happen, I have a feeling he will be forced to man up and real fast. Once he is responsible for the hard decisions there won't be time or wiggle room to step back and take the unpopular choices as he has in the past. He could afford to vote against the war in iraq because it was going to happen with or without him. Can you imagine him being in charge, recieving the same information and ignoring it? I don't think that would or will happen. I absolutely agree that we are past due for spanking the kids, I'd also like to see our russian relatives get a good beating for the way they've acted up. Throwing the UN out of the USA can never be a bad idea either.

He could afford to vote against the war in Iraq because he was not a senator at the time. He says he was against it but that is just hearsay as he was not a senator.

What he DID vote AGAINST was the surge. He still will NOT admit that it worked. Here have a look Carl and other non believers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCgPR3Qd2Os

[DuckButter]

If Obama does get elected PResident which could very well happen, I have a feeling he will be forced to man up and real fast. Once he is responsible for the hard decisions there won't be time or wiggle room to step back and take the unpopular choices as he has in the past. He could afford to vote against the war in iraq because it was going to happen with or without him. Can you imagine him being in charge, recieving the same information and ignoring it? I don't think that would or will happen. I absolutely agree that we are past due for spanking the kids, I'd also like to see our russian relatives get a good beating for the way they've acted up. Throwing the UN out of the USA can never be a bad idea either.

For that reason I say skip the campaign promises, & promises for "change" from the heavens above and vote McCain.

[Frankiarmz]

For that reason I say skip the campaign promises, & promises for "change" from the heavens above and vote McCain.

Unfortunately McCain doesn't offer much of what I want either. He is sticking his head in the sand with our border security and the issue of illegals. Don't think he will do much differently than Obama, both will be useless. I think with the present condition of the economy, war in iraq,housing market and country in general, too many folks blame the current President and think McCain will be more of the same whether or not that is true. Both of these candidates are making worthless promises and both are probably beholden to lobbyists. Next election we will still be in need of change regardless of who gets the nod.

[DUNBAR]

http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=5617271&page=1



Top link on Drudge Report


Interesting as it unfolds....

[darius]

I'm no fan of this president, but no president runs our economy. We run it. If you have confidence enough to buy things other than food or gas then our economy will grow.

The problem is that nowadays, pretty much nothing you buy will make the US economy grow. Take a walk around your house and see how many of the items you see are NOT made in China. Heck, this president, during his first election run used offices located in India for many of his election related operations. He changed that after someone pointed out that he should be a much subtler liar if he wants to win the elections.

Buying a made in China product may increase the value of someone's stock portfolio but this is paper money, and it's debatable if this is real money at all. The fact is that the US economy is in very, very bad shape, and the US Dollar is only a shadow of what it once was. It's only real value these days is that it's used as the official currency for oil transactions.

If the jobs stay abroad and if Euro takes the role of petro currency (as many anti-american countries would like to have, and as Saddam did and was punished for it) then this would be pretty much the end of the US as we have known it for the last 200+ years.

I'd disagree then that presidents do not run economies. They do when they allow the continuous export of jobs oversees and the destruction of American middle class.

My $0.02 CDN.

[myakka]

Darius
No man makes me buy anything from any one, least of all a president. I make my own choises. Government can only impead an economy Those who lead it determin the amount of impeadence.
Mike

[darius]

Darius
No man makes me buy anything from any one, least of all a president. I make my own choises.
Mike, we can make choice only from the available options. Unfortunately, with each passing day fewer and fewer of these options offer a Made in USA stickers. Not only can they make you buy from whoever they decide you should buy, but they actually succeeded in forcing you to just that.

About the only freedom you have is to buy nearly nothing.

[myakka]

Darius
The choise of "made in America" was not taken away by government, its taken away by market forces.I trust market forces. By the way, with the drop in the dollar we reduce profitability for forien manufacturing companies that sell here. thereby improving our ability to,profitably, manufacture many items here for sale, both domesticly and abroad.
Mike

[SlimTim]

I made it to about page six so if any of this has been said, sorry in advance.
Eli, you made the statement you hope "oil will be obsolete soon." I hope not! Unless you want to fly to your vacation destination in a derigible(sp?). 90% of a barrell of oil goes to aviation fuel. Practically everything we take for granted is some sort of by product of oil. Plastics, of course. Even aspirin has components of oil in it not to mention the manufacturing of them. We'll all be working in Al Gore's garden with a hoe (no jokes please) and a bag of manure (that would be a hemp bag) if oil is phased out.
Regarding Russia and Georgia. There's no way we could give Russia a good thumping right now, not while we're in Iraq and certainly not in their back yard. But that doesn't mean we can't lean on them in other ways which is apparently what was done. And you can bet they are hoping and praying (oops, nix the praying part) that Obama will be elected. And knowing of some of Obama's past & present "friends", I wouldn't be at all surprised if Russia is actively working to get him elected from the inside. It all is reminiscient of the Alger Hiss-Whittaker Chambers days. I mean, look at all of the Hollywood narcissists out it full bloom. Listen to the looney stuff they're saying.
I would like to see us get in high gear and drill and recover more oil here. Build lots of nuclear power plants. Then when Russia threatens to withold it's supply of oil from us and Europe we say, "Screw you, that swords cuts two ways. If you aren't selling that means we aren't buying and it's gonna hurt you more than it hurts us." Maybe that's naive on my part but market forces work-even if you are communist.