American Auto Industry

[Service Guy]

I am watching what happens as American auto sales plummet and carmakers are showing near-record losses.
An interesting article about how it happened and why:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081109/ap_on_bi_ge/autos_what_happened

[Service Guy]

On a related note: jobless rate at 14 yr. high. (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/08/business/economy/08econ.html)
If one of the big auto companies goes under, unemployment will be even worse.

[gear junkie]

Here's my theory: the american consumer is tired of paying for crap with an american name and patriotism is going by the wayside in place of well built forigen named(american made) vehicles. Here's my suggestion, have the big 3 make a well built car at the same price of toyota or honda and the public will buy them. It's not rocket science, they hope that people will buy their vehicles because of consumer loyalty. This is capitalism at it's best.

[Service Guy]

I think its pretty clear. From the article above:
Critics say leaders over the years at Ford Motor Co., General Motors Corp. and what is now Chrysler LLC were slow to take on unions, failed to invest enough in new products, ceded the car market to the Japanese and were ill-prepared for the inevitable rise in gas prices that would make their trucks and SUVs obsolete.
"There's been 30 years of denial," said Noel Tichy, a University of Michigan business professor and author who ran General Electric Co.'s leadership program from 1985-87 and once worked as a consultant for Ford. "They did not make themselves competitive. They didn't deal with the union issues, the cost structures long ago, everything that makes a successful company."

[ToUtahNow]

In the 70s I had a guy working for me who was a great plumber but his dad got him a job at the GM plant. Instead of working 8-hours a day on new construction he became an assembly line worker at the Camero/Firebird plant with a big pay increase to boot. His job was to install the chrome trim on the drip rail above the drive side door. He found he could load up a bunch of trim pieces on a cart and walk backwards on the line installing them. By doing this he would have a couple of hours to sit and read his book until the line caught up to him again. It was great way to earn a living with very little effort and the Union protected his lack of productivity. Before too long the plant closed down and everyone wondered where the jobs went. I don't know how things are today but I know the Union still fights modernization of the plants. It seems it would be to the Union members advantage to teach them to operate more modern equipment even if it costs some jobs.

Mark

[Bob D.]

Mark, I agree with you that there are probably conditions such as you relate that hold modernization and increased efficiency back. But that doesn't account for Detroit's lack of vision when it comes to putting out their next vehicle. Nothing that happens on the line affects whether they choose to build SUVs or 35 MPG hybrids does it? There's not much the union can do to stops them from making more fuel efficient vehicles is there?

I believe if Detroit had started down the road to 30 years ago to create true fuel efficient vehicles they would not be in this mess that they want US (you, me, and every other taxpayer) to bail them out of. By now we should have had full size PU trucks getting 25 MPG or better. The REQUIRED (by law) MPG for a mid-size car should be >30MPG.

We don't have any of that because the Big 3's lobbyists have bought off Washington, not the UAW.

[ToUtahNow]

Mark, I agree with you that there are probably conditions such as you relate that hold modernization and increased efficiency back. But that doesn't account for Detroit's lack of vision when it comes to putting out their next vehicle. Nothing that happens on the line affects whether they choose to build SUVs or 35 MPG hybrids does it? There's not much the union can do to stops them from making more fuel efficient vehicles is there?

I believe if Detroit had started down the road to 30 years ago to create true fuel efficient vehicles they would not be in this mess that they want US (you, me, and every other taxpayer) to bail them out of. By now we should have had full size PU trucks getting 25 MPG or better. The REQUIRED (by law) MPG for a mid-size car should be >30MPG.

We don't have any of that because the Big 3's lobbyists have bought off Washington, not the UAW.

Of course you are absolutely correct. I was only addressing one part of the problem but the cars Detroit has been marketing have not kept up with environmental needs (or quality).

Mark

[Gene Bickford]

As I understand it, most auto workers make $30 an hour. If this is true their own greed among other things are causing their demise.
The auto industry was not giving handouts in their hayday, so why should we bail them out now?

[Frankiarmz]

The last time I spoke in defense of Unions things got ugly, but I trust Mark and others can debate the issue more sensibly. Before I get into my thoughts on the Auto industry, in general an awful lot of American jobs have gone south and abroad. Individuals with or without the benefit of a Union cannot compete with the cheap labor costs outside of the USA and that's a problem that will not go away. I agree that Unions do their best to keep workers working however they can, which is not always in the best interest of the industry. Many years ago I went to school to be a printer, Union jobs such as those on the Newspapers were scarce and the Unions settled a strike by agreeing to no layoffs for several years after which the employers could bring in as much automation as they wanted. Thousands of jobs disappeared, but that is the price of progress. Regarding the Auto industry, we need to have jobs in order to buy cars and trucks. Sure with a fifty billion dollar bailout the big three could retool and make a less costly, more fuel efficient vehicle but who will buy them? What makes more sense? Bailout the Auto industry, or put that 50 billion towards a new industry to employ more Americans? I'm just asking and waiting for another stimulus check! By the way, exactly how do we gauge the economy? Just because stocks are doing well doesn't mean Americans are working and spending.

[tinmack]

I'm gonna take the conspiracy theory route here and note that the big car makers could be making more fuel efficient vehicles at a cheaper price, but they just don't want to.

We haven't seen a change in fuel efficiency since 1985. If you do want better, with a hybrid, it's cost prohibitive unless you drive 30000 or more miles a year.

They had experimental carburetors in the 1960's that gave phenomenal mileage in 8 cylinder engines. This was before the days of platinum spark plugs, high efficiency air filters, fuel injection, synthetic oil, etc. The big car companies in cahoots with big oil quashed all this, and the general public put up with it.

I say let the big companies go under. There'll be great deals on cars up to and during their demise. When the dust settles, maybe we'll finally get that lithium ion battery powered car that can go 300 miles on a single charge.

Either that, or by that time there'll be so much looting/rioting/firebombing by the angry/hungry/disillusioned/desperate mobs in the streets that we won't have any place to drive anyway.

[Frankiarmz]

I'm gonna take the conspiracy theory route here and note that the big car makers could be making more fuel efficient vehicles at a cheaper price, but they just don't want to.

We haven't seen a change in fuel efficiency since 1985. If you do want better, with a hybrid, it's cost prohibitive unless you drive 30000 or more miles a year.

They had experimental carburetors in the 1960's that gave phenomenal mileage in 8 cylinder engines. This was before the days of platinum spark plugs, high efficiency air filters, fuel injection, synthetic oil, etc. The big car companies in cahoots with big oil quashed all this, and the general public put up with it.

I say let the big companies go under. There'll be great deals on cars up to and during their demise. When the dust settles, maybe we'll finally get that lithium ion battery powered car that can go 300 miles on a single charge.

Either that, or by that time there'll be so much looting/rioting/firebombing by the angry/hungry/disillusioned/desperate mobs in the streets that we won't have any place to drive anyway.

GM already had the car you are talking about it was the EV1. Back when they took them away from happy consumers who were not allowed to buy them, the range was 50 or so miles per charge. Those same cars with lithiums would have a range of over 200 miles per charge, not too shabby. Wheter the big three make such cars or foreign automakers, there will be the issue of replacing and disposing of batteries every few years. I'm concerned for what happens tomorrow and the next few weeks and months, how many "industries" can go under or be bailed out? People are cutting back on purchases, travel, repairs, etc. Maybe it's not the right time to build economic cars or any cars! Seems our government (democrats and republicans) are throwing money at these different problems without a real game plan.

[tinmack]

Wait till the retail numbers come out in January....they're gonna be nasty. This will be the worst Christmas retail season of the last 20 years probably. No doubt there'll be some casualties/closings come next year. Circuit City is already closing 25 percent of their stores, and it's only November...

[BHD]

I'm gonna take the conspiracy theory route here and note that the big car makers could be making more fuel efficient vehicles at a cheaper price, but they just don't want to.
...

They had experimental carburetors in the 1960's that gave phenomenal mileage in 8 cylinder engines. This was before the days of platinum spark plugs, high efficiency air filters, fuel injection, synthetic oil, etc. The big car companies in cahoots with big oil quashed all this, and the general public put up with it.


as of recent I have started to question that, I have heard many stories but I have never found any one who first hand it was always I heard of some one that had heard of some one, many of the stories were similar. and most ended up saying they took there car to the dealer to get it worked on and the car company stole the carburetor off of it and put a regular one on and now would only get regular mileage,

this is why I wonder if there jsut Urban legends, is if the product was ever patented it would be in the Paten office and you and I could currently look it up the Paten's would have expired and basically there open to all to use.
second, I do not see the Japanese, or Europe, or Asia, or Chinese, making cars or trucks that are exceptional at there fuel mileage, (yes my BIL, bought a Japanese pickup that gets 40+ mph, but it is basically a golf cart, and is not even road legal and is registered as a four wheeler, for legal use in the US, it is not a pickup/truck as we think of one)
and some countries do not have there hands tied by a EPA, I think if there was a good way of getting gas mileage from a "full size" unit they would be doing it some where now. (maybe not in the USA) but some where, I think they would, I can not believe ever where there is a conspiracy between the oil companies and the auto industry,

[Frankiarmz]

I don't know if anyone can provide proof positive about the carb story, but when I watched the movie "Who Killed The Electric Car" there was mention of cutting edge battery technology being bought up by GM. The movie gave a strong impression that GM had a reliable working electric car that consumers raved about, and that it was too successful! GM stood lose on the sale and repair of many parts associated with the combustion engine. Some folks here are upset with the thought of Unions trying to protect members jobs, but they readily accept business practices that cost the consumer much more by comparisson. What is the best plan of action now, what should the government and "We The People" do to turn all this mess around?

[Service Guy]

I don't know if anyone can provide proof positive about the carb story, but when I watched the movie "Who Killed The Electric Car" there was mention of cutting edge battery technology being bought up by GM. The movie gave a strong impression that GM had a reliable working electric car that consumers raved about, and that it was too successful! GM stood lose on the sale and repair of many parts associated with the combustion engine. Some folks here are upset with the thought of Unions trying to protect members jobs, but they readily accept business practices that cost the consumer much more by comparisson. What is the best plan of action now, what should the government and "We The People" do to turn all this mess around?

Actually, nobody said anything to support greedy corporate manipulations of the market. Who/what are you talking about?:scratchhead:

[Frankiarmz]

Actually, nobody said anything to support greedy corporate manipulations of the market. Who/what are you talking about?:scratchhead:

I made that observation because there is an spoken upset regarding Unions causing the demise of businesses, but no one places blame or responsibility on the business leaders themselves. My specific reference was about GM and their EV1 electric car from back in the 90's . I have no doubt that if GM allowed the car to continue to be a success, that jobs would have been lost due to the decreased demand for parts and repairs. I believe GM's motivation was more corporate greed in the face of this car's success, so they took them all back and crushed them. Someone here mentioned greed by Union workers making $30.00 an hour but there is no talk about what corporate greed costs us. That is what I was referring to. I am not upset by tradespeople earning income to provide medical benefits and a certain standard of living for themselves and their families, so why do some tradespeople have such an upset for Union workers? Not every Union worker is dragging their feet and wasting money for their boss. I worked a physically demanding job in some of the most dangerous neighborhoods in NYC, and thannks to my Union I was fairly compensated. NYTel still made a profit.

[Woussko]

BHD

That micro pickup reminds me of the one in this video. Might it be one of them? The second video is a tiny 3 wheeler pickup. I would call it more a toy than a truck.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfyW8fyeNck&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaDCkzVm8FY&feature=related

[ToUtahNow]

My brother owns one of these which has given us plenty of laughs.

Mark

[Frankiarmz]

My brother owns one of these which has given us plenty of laughs.

Mark

That looks smaller than the smart car! Saw a smart car drive by my house today, scary small.

[cpw]

Here's my theory: the american consumer is tired of paying for crap with an american name and patriotism is going by the wayside in place of well built forigen named(american made) vehicles. Here's my suggestion, have the big 3 make a well built car at the same price of toyota or honda and the public will buy them. It's not rocket science, they hope that people will buy their vehicles because of consumer loyalty. This is capitalism at it's best.
I bought a Honda Accord, and I consider it just as American as a Chevy. It is assembled in Ohio with an American engine and transmission. I could buy shares of Honda, a Japanese man can buy shares of GM. The country that has the headquarters is meaningless to me (at least from a purchasing decision), though I did make a point to get a car built in the USA this time.

[cpw]

I agree that Unions do their best to keep workers working however they can, which is not always in the best interest of the industry.
I don't think you can really fault the unions for trying to get a better deal for their workers, but you can fault Ford, GM, and Chrysler executives for saying yes to the demands; taking a short-sighted view and agreeing to things that were unsustainable.

[Frankiarmz]

I don't think you can really fault the unions for trying to get a better deal for their workers, but you can fault Ford, GM, and Chrysler executives for saying yes to the demands; taking a short-sighted view and agreeing to things that were unsustainable.

Makes me wonder what they were thinking? Seems things are so far gone at this point, that other options should be explored. What's the sense of handing over billions of dollars to bailout an industry that could not sustain itself? Is there any chance of getting some of that bailout money back from the banks that refuse to make reasonable loans? They were not given that money to balance their books but rather to build confidence and stimulate business. I still think some kind of impartial commisson should have reviewed the bailout requests and not the legislators.

[Velosapien]

I'm gonna take the conspiracy theory route here and note that the big car makers could be making more fuel efficient vehicles at a cheaper price, but they just don't want to.

We haven't seen a change in fuel efficiency since 1985. If you do want better, with a hybrid, it's cost prohibitive unless you drive 30000 or more miles a year.



GM and Ford have been simultaneously building cheap efficient cars for europeean and foreign markets for many many years. Remember gas has been more expensive in other parts of the world for decades than the highest we've ever seen on this side. The detail is they don't sell them here because no one wanted them. They were perfectly happy to keep making a quick buck selling F-150's to ever bother bringing them over and do the necessary marketing. I believe there is no one more to blame than consumers and car companies total lack of foresight in order to make a quick buck. It's easy to look back and complain they did little to improve efficiency. It seems to me that 10 years ago when companies like Toyota or Honda started investing insane and seemingly unecessary amounts of money in hybrids and ultra fuel efficiency they were basically laughed at for trying to make cars for tree huggers.

[Velosapien]

this is why I wonder if there jsut Urban legends, is if the product was ever patented it would be in the Paten office and you and I could currently look it up the Paten's would have expired and basically there open to all to use.

The thing is if there were such devices and conspiracies, right about now is the time automakers would be saying to hell with it and breaking them out. With these companies struggling for survival it would make no sense to be investing billions in efficiency R&D if the technology already existed. If such technology existed a lot of their financial problems would have been instantly solved.

second, I do not see the Japanese, or Europe, or Asia, or Chinese, making cars or trucks that are exceptional at there fuel mileage, (yes my BIL, bought a Japanese pickup that gets 40+ mph, but it is basically a golf cart, and is not even road legal and is registered as a four wheeler, for legal use in the US, it is not a pickup/truck as we think of one)
and some countries do not have there hands tied by a EPA, I think if there was a good way of getting gas mileage from a "full size" unit they would be doing it some where now. (maybe not in the USA) but some where, I think they would, I can not believe ever where there is a conspiracy between the oil companies and the auto industry,

Depends on what size vehicle you refer to. There certainly are many euro and foreign vehicles that do over 40mpg and meet similar standards. If you consider diesel cars there are a bunch in the 60 to 70mpg range. The only thing is they wont be full size cars or trucks. Something more along the lines of civic or hatchback sized.

[gear junkie]

Ford does not have good business sense. They have a car out in britain right now that gets 63 mpg (diesel) but they won't bring it to the US because they say there's no market for it.

[Frankiarmz]

A word on the economic hybrids and plugins, we are still sharing our roads with plenty of Suvs's Ford Excursions, Chevy Sububans, etc. While the tiny cars are economical , they are dead meat in a clash with one of the big vehicles. Something to consider.

[Velosapien]

Ford does not have good business sense. They have a car out in britain right now that gets 63 mpg (diesel) but they won't bring it to the US because they say there's no market for it.

Many of the most desirable efficient cars in europe now are either Ford, or based on Fords (Volvo, Mazda, Peugeot). They are actually doing rather well over there and are investing quite succesfully in things like rally racing to really promote them.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4276559.html?page=4

A word on the economic hybrids and plugins, we are still sharing our roads with plenty of Suvs's Ford Excursions, Chevy Sububans, etc. While the tiny cars are economical , they are dead meat in a clash with one of the big vehicles. Something to consider.

There's always that danger, in a crash the lighter vehicle is usually at a disadvantage, but you need to start somewhere. If someone is waiting for 40mpg 5000 pound cars they should be prepared to continue paying a lot for gas. Only a small percent of fatalities are actually caused it such collisions though. The biggest problem tends to be vehicle incompatibility such as higher riding SUV's with taller bumpers. The trend now is for lower riding type SUV's which are more compatible with cars so weight disparities become less of a concern since cars will be hit in their crash zones rather than above them. I'm trying to find the link but I found the statistics from the IIHS for the latest years which showed fatality rates were practically even among all types of vehicles per 100,000 of each kind since the vast majority of deaths are caused by single vehicle accidents.

[threecreeks3]

The micro BHD has is the pickup version of my van in the Philippines.They get great mileage but I'd sure hate to get in a wreck with one on a freeway.Its a beer can with wheels.I read an article awhile back that it was motor trend magazine in england delev van of the year a few years back.I really do not like driving mine over about 45mph on a highway.Id guess its mileage at over 40mpg when I drive it sanely,I've never checked it.I just put in the equal of 10 bucks of gas about every 3 trips to town an back.The equal of 20 bucks fills its tank there.Gas is about equal in price there as here.
The new version is 1100cc the old version like I have is 650cc.I doubt even the new much improved version would pass any highway saftey standards here.Ive seen the new version in person and they are much nicer.
Sam

[AFM]

Our ferderal government in Australia has just bailed out our two major car makers GM and Ford so we are all in the same boat and we are all to blame we haven`t given a stuff until petrol started to get over that magical price.
We had the opec shock in the seventies when petrol prices went through what we considered the roof and they looked at electric and every other fuel but then over the next twenty years petrol prices fell down again and we encouraged Ford and GM to built thoughs f-100`s and 150`s and suv`s and all thoughs V8`s and now we are back where we started all thoughs years ago with high fuel prices but the differance is petrol is really running out and Ford and GM have been left behind the Japanese with toyota, mazda, honda etc and the other Asian countries are so far in front with their fuel efficient well designed smaller built cars.
So don`t look any further than yourselves for the demise of your local car industry blame yourselves as we are the ones that caused it.

Tony:loser:

[cpw]

Ford does not have good business sense. They have a car out in britain right now that gets 63 mpg (diesel) but they won't bring it to the US because they say there's no market for it.

I'd bet there is a good reason related to emissions standards. Europe is much more lax than the US about that, even though they would have you believe that we are the ones who don't "care" about the environment.

[JimDon]

FWIW,
I was at the Milwaukee auto show in 1968 or 69, and saw one of the experimental carbs that got high mileage on a V-8 engine. It was called a VVC, for Vario Venturi Carburetor. It was perfectly square and bolted onto the top of the intake plenum where a regular quad would go. The thing looked like it was done in anodized aluminum with a dull red finish to it. It worked by changing the size of the venturi as the gas pedal was depressed. It was the only time I ever saw one and right after debut, the darn thing disappeared. There were a number of these being talked about at the time, so whether they are all urban legends, I could not say, but this one sure looked like it was complete and in all three dimensions when I saw it, and yes, the car did run.
Jim Don

[JimDon]

On that VVC:


Variable venturi carburetor
Document Type and Number:
United States Patent No. 4088715
Abstract:
A variable venturi carburetor is described that functions in relation to an internal combustion engine to deliver a homogenous mixture of hydrocarbon fuel and air to the engine cylinders in response to vacuum pressure created through the cylinders. The carburetor includes axially movable venturi members for effectively changing the air volume entering through the primary air duct. Provision is made for maintaining a preselected volume of raw fuel available in a reservoir for instantaneous delivery in response to demand created through various throttle opening conditions. In addition to this feature, I provide mechanism by which the air-fuel ratio is appropriately adjusted automatically in response to changing throttle positions. This is done by changing the "head" or distance from the fuel reservoir level to the fuel outlet orifice, thereby changing the pressure requirements for drawing the fuel from the reservoir to the outlet orifice. A further provision is made in the form of a barometric sensing device that is operatively connected to the carburetor in order to automatically vary the air-fuel ratio in response to varying air pressure conditions at various altitudes.

Cheers,
Jim Don

[Velosapien]

I'd bet there is a good reason related to emissions standards. Europe is much more lax than the US about that, even though they would have you believe that we are the ones who don't "care" about the environment.

Not exactly, Europes standards are just different, not more lax. They have different regulations in the limits for different types of pallutants so cars here would probably not meet regulations there either.

[Velosapien]

FWIW,
I was at the Milwaukee auto show in 1968 or 69, and saw one of the experimental carbs that got high mileage on a V-8 engine. It was called a VVC, for Vario Venturi Carburetor. It was perfectly square and bolted onto the top of the intake plenum where a regular quad would go. The thing looked like it was done in anodized aluminum with a dull red finish to it. It worked by changing the size of the venturi as the gas pedal was depressed. It was the only time I ever saw one and right after debut, the darn thing disappeared. There were a number of these being talked about at the time, so whether they are all urban legends, I could not say, but this one sure looked like it was complete and in all three dimensions when I saw it, and yes, the car did run.
Jim Don

I've read about that carb but I don't know I'd say it dissapeared. The vario venturi type of carb was very popular in many cars in the UK for most of the last century. Ford apparently had their own variation on it but eventually retired it because it was problematic. Judging by the description I see nothing that would indicate this thing would have any significant impact on fuel efficiency. What it did can now be done a lot more acurately by fuel injection. I think any claims of this thing giving incredible mileage might have been due to flawed testing methodology rather than anything else. Even to this day there is a lot of disagreement on what is the correct way to measure mileage since there are so many factors that can give completely different results.

[Velosapien]

If this is it, doesn't look like there is any secret to it. Simply looks like the Ford variation was extremely troublesome.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SU_carburetor

http://www.autozone.com/az/cds/en_us/0900823d/80/16/6b/f7/0900823d80166bf7/repairInfoPages.htm


http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/127851-are-there-any-problems-with-a-variable-venturi-carburetor.html

[gear junkie]

I'd bet there is a good reason related to emissions standards. Europe is much more lax than the US about that, even though they would have you believe that we are the ones who don't "care" about the environment.
I read an article where the chairman of Ford was interviewed about the car and the sole reason why it's not sold in the states is because Ford thinks there's no market for disial(you know what I mean). The european manufactors have taken the exact opposite approach and devoted a large part of their R&D money to diseals.

As far as the unions and super carb goes, that's sidestepping the issue. The big 3 could pay their employes sweat shop wage and they would still go under. The public is tired of paying for a crappy product pure and simple. Myself as a consumer does not care about auto manfucators working conditions, wages or any of that. What I care about is 1 thing and 1 thing only; is this car I'm paying 25-30k for break in the next 5 years?

I'm not mentioning safety because by in large, the majority of cars today are very safe. The gas mileage is of no concern because it's a personal choice to drive a gas guzzler. What do you want? Great mpg or horsepower? You're not getting both. Quality vehicles is what's seperating the manufactors at this point and the big 3 are losing very badly.

[Bob D.]

When I was in college in Detroit in the 70s I can remember seeing some X (experimental) cars on the streets.

[Pipestone Kid]

"As I understand it, most auto workers make $30 an hour. If this is true their own greed among other things are causing their demise."

Hmmm, what do you call it when a drain cleaner hands you a bill for $180 for fifteen minutes work?

[Frankiarmz]

"As I understand it, most auto workers make $30 an hour. If this is true their own greed among other things are causing their demise."

Hmmm, what do you call it when a drain cleaner hands you a bill for $180 for fifteen minutes work?

Good point. Some folks assume all auto workers are goofing off and living high on $30 and hour, not true. Thanks for the observation.

[smorris]

If this is it, doesn't look like there is any secret to it. Simply looks like the Ford variation was extremely troublesome.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SU_carburetor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SU_carburetor)

I've got a pair of those. No way do I get great mileage. Maybe mid/high-20s in an 1800 pound car built 50 years ago.

Concerning the comment that it isn't safe to drive small cars with SUVs and pickups out there. We've got to start doing it if we're going to reduce the average size car. I think that's just an excuse to keep large, comfortable, "safe" cars. I've driven mostly small cars, motorcycles, and now scooters my whole life and never felt threatened by large vehicles. In 40 years of driving, I never had a car over two liters displacement until this last spring. My 1500cc '81 Twin-Stick Dodge Colt (Mitsubishi Mirage) got almost 50 MPG, and my friend with an identical car regularly got over 50 MPG.

[ToUtahNow]

I agree with Steve although I think I am more aware of SUVs and trucks while I am on a motorcycle I don't really worry about the size difference.

As far as mileage goes my 96 Lincoln Towncar had a 4.6 in it and I consistently got 20 mpg. It seems if a big car can do that a mid size should do much better.

Mark

[HouseOfAtlas]

Good point. Some folks assume all auto workers are goofing off and living high on $30 and hour, not true. Thanks for the observation.

My buddy used to be on the assembly line at a Ford plant. His back isn't the best because of it and he's only 24 years old. I think he might of installed transmissions or something, not sure.

All I know is doing the same EXACT thing day in and day out, it could make someone get bored of their job fairly quick and possibly cause insanity. $30/hour is a good wage, plus you get benefits and everything on top of that, but I don't see it as being overpaid or anything like that.

[gear junkie]

"As I understand it, most auto workers make $30 an hour. If this is true their own greed among other things are causing their demise."

Hmmm, what do you call it when a drain cleaner hands you a bill for $180 for fifteen minutes work?An auto workers doesn't have to supply his own tools, insurance, or any other overhead. After all is said and done, the plumber might see 20-40 of that 180.

I know what you meant though.

[threecreeks3]

To me theres blame on all sides in the auto industry.I drive an 86 ford diesel a friend drives a 06 both get nearly the same mpg.It should have improved quite a bit but they didn't bother to make that happen.The workers should have been more open to more automation on the line and the company should have had more retraining programs.The buyers should have insisted more on mpg and quality,as should have management and workers.As 1 said we've become a throw away society,personally I do my best not to get into that syndrome.
Theres no reason a quality built car should be replaced every 4 years but thats what many do just to have new.My last truck I had over 300k miles on it, same with the 1 before it ,this 1 while its an 86 still only has 160k on it.
While I'm against the basic idea of rescuing the big 3 I don't see as theres much choise as if they go itll take out other businesses far beyond the auto industry.On the other hand the tax payers should get a big share of ownership that can be sold years down the road.And take away those huge bonuses for sure.Management failed and failure shouldn't be rewarded as part of the bailout.
Any way you cut it the auto industry in the states is in for a huge change and reduction in workers.
Sam

[NHMaster3015]

545 People
by Charley Reese

Politicians are the only people in the world who create problems and then campaign against them.

Have you ever wondered, if both the Democrats and the Republicans are against deficits, WHY do we have deficits?

Have you ever wondered, if all the politicians are against inflation and high taxes, WHY do we have inflation and high taxes?

You and I don't propose a federal budget. The President does.

You and I don't have the Constitutional authority to vote on appropriations. The House of Representatives does.

You and I don't write the tax code. Congress does.

You and I don't set fiscal policy. Congress does.

You and I don't control monetary policy. The Federal Reserve Bank does.

One hundred senators, 435 congressmen, one president and nine Supreme Court justices. 545 human beings out of the 300 million are directly, legally, morally and individually responsible for the domestic problems that plague this country.

I excluded the members of the Federal Reserve Board because that problem was created by the Congress. In 1913, Congress delegated its Constitutional duty to provide a sound currency to a federally chartered, but private, central bank.

I excluded all the special interests and lobbyists for a sound reason. They have no legal authority. They have no ability to coerce a senator, a congressman, or a president to do one cotton-picking thing. I don't care if they offer a politician $1 million dollars in cash. The politician has the power to accept or reject it. No matter what the lobbyist promises, it is the legislator's responsibility to determine how he votes.

Those 545 human beings spend much of their energy convincing you that what they did is not their fault. They cooperate in this common con regardless of party.

What separates a politician from a normal human being is an excessive amount of gall. No normal human being would have the gall of a Speaker, who stood up and criticized the President for creating deficits. The president can only propose a budget. He cannot force the Congress to accept it.

The Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land, gives sole responsibility to the House of Representatives for originating and approving appropriations and taxes. Who is the speaker of the House? She is the leader of the majority party. She and fellow House members, not the president, can approve any budget they want. If the president vetoes it, they can pass it over his veto if they agree to.

It seems inconceivable to me that a nation of 300 million cannot replace 545 people who stand convicted -- by present facts -- of incompetence and irresponsibility. I can't think of a single domestic problem that is not traceable directly to those 545 people. When you fully grasp the plain truth that 545 people exercise the power of the federal government, then it must follow that what exists is what they want to exist.

If the tax code is unfair, it's because they want it unfair.

If the budget is in the red, it's because they want it in the red.

If the Army & Marines are in Iraq, it's because they want them in Iraq.

If they do not receive social security but are on an elite retirement plan not available to the people, it's because they want it that way.

There are no insoluble government problems.

Do not let these 545 people shift the blame to bureaucrats, whom they hire and whose jobs they can abolish; to lobbyists, whose gifts and advice they can reject; to regulators, to whom they give the power to regulate and from whom they can take this power. Above all, do not let them con you into the belief that there exists disembodied mystical forces like 'the economy,' 'inflation,' or 'politics' that prevent them from doing what they take an oath to do.

Those 545 people, and they alone, are responsible.

They, and they alone, have the power.

They, and they alone, should be held accountable by the people who are their bosses, provided the voters have the gumption to manage their own employees.

We should vote all of them out of office and clean up their mess!

(Charlie Reese is a former columnist of the Orlando Sentinel Newspaper.)

[stokefire7]

hear,hear

[DUNBAR PLUMBING]

http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idINN1339368420081114?rpc=44






Looks like a going out of business sale happening real soon.




Shows you right up front if congress has to ask them to come to them and cut executive salaries.....


they want money and still pay the top brass the same.


What really would happen if they went under? Anything major?

Of course a lot of people would be out of a job.......but there's already 10 million.....


what's a few million more going to hurt at this point....really.


Another guy was telling me today how "wasteful" those workers are on those assembly lines. All in the name of unions.

[Service Guy]

I am ready for anything at this point...unemployment hits 10%...I won't be surprised. It will suck bigtime, but we have been setting ourselves up for this for a long time. Everyone thought they could live off of credit forever. In the end, someone has to pony up the money.
Foreclosures, business failures, layoffs....we are finally 'paying' our debts.:(

[Pipestone Kid]

Advanta (Credit Card Company) is charging me 35% interest, without warning with a high credit score rating. It's a legal molestation/rape of my income producing abilities. It's my obligation now to make sure I get my monies worth that I get the message out to make sure other victims aren't created.

Must be the Union!!

[CWSmith]

I can't speak with knowledge of the wastefulness of union auto workers or the efficiency of the salaried work force. But I suspect it may be a lot like some other "Union" shops.

In the company that I worked for 30 years we had a union shop. It was a necessity, given the crap that the management would pull. Just exibitions of stupidity on both sides at times but it often appeared that the "Us and Them" mentality was counter-productive all the way around.

It most always appeared to be that anything with the Union took forever, but at the same time, you could rarely get a proper appraisal of any situation with the management and I've know far too many Salaried guys who never seemed to have anything to do.

Over thirty years it was quite surprising who would survive the many layoffs and all too often the politics of business drove many very productive salied guys out the door. Likewise, if you had a goofoff in the Union, it was impossible to get of him. Too much "protectiveness" on the Union side.

Over a three year period in the late 90's I had the opportunity to be an instructor of our Total Quality program. I volunteered to work with the third shift because I really did not know any of the workers there and at that time period, I'd have NO salaried employees.

It proved to be a real "eye-opener" and in the end I had a better understanding of the problems faced by far too many Union employees. It's tough and the issues that many Union members face is often difficult enough to make me wonder how they could drag themselves into the shop every day.

One of frailties (sp?) of our business was watching the layoff's hit during the Christmas season. Odd time I used to think but after my initial years at the plant, I learned that the layoffs hit at that time, as a matter of design. You see, as the year hit it's last quarter the management started worrying about their bonuses... which are based on their projected shipping numbers. So to make "the numbers" managment would often pull up orders from the first quarter of the next year. That way they could put the shops on overtime in November and early December and once the "numbers" were made, they'd can the workers! That way, they got their bonuses and the workers got the shaft... going on unemployment during the holiday season and well into the new year.

In the auto industry, it's not the Union that designs the car, makes the decisions on the models or types of vehicles it produces or decide to push on to the public. They don't decide the size, efficiency, options, or anything else and they sure don't do the marketing and sales. Likewise, they don't walk away with the bonuses that the "deciders" do either.

However, they do take the heat when the product fails, they are the first to be layed off, and they are mostly the ones who get blamed for the high cost. It's pretty much a good bet that the management team will walk away with a bonus, even if the model fails, or the industry fails.

It's certainly not totally the fault of the management or the Union, but it's the management that decides the model and it's the management that governs the marketing.

CWS

[DUNBAR PLUMBING]

That link came from Drudge Report...and that wasn't even up for 3 hours last night.

I'm curious to know what caused that abrupt removal....?

[Bob D.]

A word on the economic hybrids and plugins, we are still sharing our roads with plenty of Suvs's Ford Excursions, Chevy Sububans, etc. While the tiny cars are economical , they are dead meat in a clash with one of the big vehicles. Something to consider.

Will they take all the 18 wheel trucks, school busses, and other large vehicles off the road? I think not so I don't see it making much difference. Eventually those big old boats will fade away just as the 7000 lb behemoths of the 60s and 70s did.

[Frankiarmz]

Will they take all the 18 wheel trucks, school busses, and other large vehicles off the road? I think not so I don't see it making much difference. Eventually those big old boats will fade away just as the 7000 lb behemoths of the 60s and 70s did.

I agree that a transition will have to take place, I just wanted to throw that out there as a talking point. I know truckers and school bus drivers have there share of problem drivers, but I would still feel better sharing the roads in a smaller vehcile with them instead of the soccer Moms speeding in SUV's with a cell phone plastered to their heads.

[Bob D.]

instead of the soccer Moms speeding in SUV's with a cell phone plastered to their heads


But its not just soccer Moms, and I understand you were
using that just as an example and not laying it all on them.



Here is some interesting reading about foreign and American made vehicles.

http://www.howtobuyamerican.com/content/db/b-db-autos.shtml

[ToUtahNow]

The incentive bidding i not limited to just the auto industry. The same thing happens with large stores like Costco, Walmart or Cabelas. Incredible amounts of money are given in incentives to bring jobs and tax dollars into areas. When given a choice between buying prime property with no incentives in one area versus free land and million of incentives in another area the choice is pretty simple.

Mark

[Bob D.]

Agree Mark, and many Mid-Atlantic and New England states saw the same thing happen 30 years ago when all their local manufacturing went South, but only after the bled the local governments dry stringing them along with promises to stay if they cut property taxes and gave them other incentives.

A large and well known glass manufacturer operated one of their oldest and biggest bottle plants not far from for about 100 years. This area produced much of the ketchup for Heinz, Ritter and Hunts (tomatoes being a big crop in the area counties), and had bottling plants for 7-up, Coke, Pepsi, and others close by and they made bottles for all of them. They employed close to a third of the city work force, about 3500 people. In the early 80s they threatened to move saying they couldn't be competitive working from there any longer. The city took their taxes to ZERO for five years and gave them incentives to get them to stay. The glass plant took the tax cut for 5 years and then left anyway, leaving behind a toxic mess on a 100+ acres site in the middle of the city that is still in the process of being cleaned up, and an unemployment rate (for the city) that jumped to 24% when the plant closed.