18V lithium 3AH vs 24V lithium Run Time

[Tennesseepowerstroke]

Has anyone done a comparison? I charged both batteries and wanted to see how long they would run my cordless vac. Both batteries ran the vac for 16 minutes before it shut down. My 18V 1.5 AH battery ran it only for 11 minutes which can be expected. If the first two batteries lasted the same would Max select power tools and batteries be needed or would there be any advantage to them. The new X3 set actually has better specs than the older Max Select tools. I am thinking of returning the Max Select kit and purchasing the X3 combo. Any thoughts or experiences with these sets are welcome. I just don't want the extra weight and size of the Max Select tools if the X3 tools perform just as well or run as long on 18 volt 3AH batteries.

[Ru&Lins_05]

The run time is the same for the vacuum but the strokes and rpms of the maxselect saws are higher with the 24v battery I think. I own some max select tools, jigsaw, planer, and yes the caulk gun (which i think is great but i won't get into that) and the 24v battery is better on these. The vac i'm not sure, maybe is sucks harder with the 24v but I'm not sure. What i do know is that the X3 tools are freakin nice. I have the x2 and have recently got the X3 system. The performance is better than the maxselect even when you're using the 24v. The recip saw is 100% better than the maxselect or X2 version, doens't get all clogged up and cuts so much faster, its great. The smaller hammer drill is nice too, not nearly as bulky as the X2. When you say maxselect kit I'm assuming you mean the 8 pc set. That is a really good set but the new saws and smaller drill in my opinion are nicer. But I'm pretty sure the 8 pc is cheaper than the new 5 pc x3, not sure though. So I guess what I'm saying is I think th X3 is a better system than the x2 or the maxselect and if you don't mind paying a little more and you don't need the jigsaw or caulk gun then get the x3. Hope that helps :confused:

[Tennesseepowerstroke]

The run time is the same for the vacuum but the strokes and rpms of the maxselect saws are higher with the 24v battery I think. I own some max select tools, jigsaw, planer, and yes the caulk gun (which i think is great but i won't get into that) and the 24v battery is better on these. The vac i'm not sure, maybe is sucks harder with the 24v but I'm not sure. What i do know is that the X3 tools are freakin nice. I have the x2 and have recently got the X3 system. The performance is better than the maxselect even when you're using the 24v. The recip saw is 100% better than the maxselect or X2 version, doens't get all clogged up and cuts so much faster, its great. The smaller hammer drill is nice too, not nearly as bulky as the X2. When you say maxselect kit I'm assuming you mean the 8 pc set. That is a really good set but the new saws and smaller drill in my opinion are nicer. But I'm pretty sure the 8 pc is cheaper than the new 5 pc x3, not sure though. So I guess what I'm saying is I think th X3 is a better system than the x2 or the maxselect and if you don't mind paying a little more and you don't need the jigsaw or caulk gun then get the x3. Hope that helps :confused:

The kit I have only present one I have seen is the 3 piece 24V Max Select kit with the hammer drill, reciiprocating saw, flashlight, charger and 2 batteries for $299. I added the max select impact driver and max select circular saw at $119 each. The X3 combo is $499 with a 10% rebate from ridgid which would make it $90 cheaper than the max select tools. I will make a switch this week as I am within the 90 day period.

The motor noise or pitch of the 18V 3.0AH and 24V 3.0AH batteries sound the same. It does have a different sound with the 18V 1.5AH battery. I also understand that it should have more power with the 24V battery with the same run time as the 18V 3.0 AH battery but it sounds the same.

That X3 hammer drill seems smaller and lighter than the autoshift drill. I would still like to have a 24V battery and charger for the planer, radio, and vacuum if I could find a sale or clearance on the 24V Starter Kit.

Anyone else compared the 2 different batteries in the vac. I am sure the 18V specs for the Max Select tools were done with a ni-cad and think the 18 3.0AH lithium performs like the 24V. Just my thoughts.

[DRC-Wartex]

1.5 Ah battery provides half the current of 3Ah battery, so the tools would be weaker at high loads, but work at approximately same RPM under zero load.

to get the runtime you multiply the voltage by capacity and you get energy, taking into account that at higher voltage tools will be more efficient (10-15%) because they use less current to generate same torque/power. Then you test a tool with either battery and you get the energy consumption.

For example 18v 3Ah battery would have 54 Watt-hour energy. Of course this is not a real figure as the battery would never give up full 3 Ah, simply because it is a maximum theoretical capacity claimed by the manufacturer, battery never fully discharges, and battery never fully charges. The real energy can only be calculated using a computerized charger/discharger. This has been done for A123 batteries (Dewalt) and Sony/Konion batteries (Makita/Bosch) and Moli Energy (Milwaukee V28 / Ridgid 24v), but I haven't found 18v Li-Ion ridgid tests. Dig around on RCGroups.com.

You also have to take into account the battery management system that disconnects the battery when per-cell voltage is too low. 18v and 24v batteries might have different cutoff voltage because they use different size/chemistry cells.

Some tools also use DC-DC stepdown converters to bring the voltage down from 24 to 18 (Dewalt does it in their cordless vac) so the motor RPM will be the same at both voltages, hence same sound pitch. DC-DC converters waste a lot of energy as heat so you might not see any difference between a 24v and 18v battery with equal capacity in such devices.

There are many factors, so the best way is just to test it using both batteries. If you are lazy, charge them and stick them into the incandescent light and time how long it works.

[Calder]

Be careful not to forget the light is on if you follow the light test suggested above. It is my belief that leaving lights on with NiCd batteries in them is one of the major contributors to reported battery failures.

If you forget about it, the light can run the battery down to a voltage level where the charger fails to recognise that it is a battery.

Because the load on the battery is low in the light, the risk of damage to the battery is very low and it can be revived back to normal. However, for most people without any other knowledge, the battery will show up 'bad' on the charger. Some people at this point might try 'jumping the battery', and this practice while seeming to resuscitate a bad battery probably results in otherwise avoidable damage.

[roadrashray]

Has anyone done a comparison? I charged both batteries and wanted to see how long they would run my cordless vac. Both batteries ran the vac for 16 minutes before it shut down. My 18V 1.5 AH battery ran it only for 11 minutes which can be expected. If the first two batteries lasted the same would Max select power tools and batteries be needed or would there be any advantage to them. The new X3 set actually has better specs than the older Max Select tools. I am thinking of returning the Max Select kit and purchasing the X3 combo. Any thoughts or experiences with these sets are welcome. I just don't want the extra weight and size of the Max Select tools if the X3 tools perform just as well or run as long on 18 volt 3AH batteries.

Yes, we do comparisons with power tools every day by using them in very arduous conditions. Battery capacity specifications, no load or light load run times, power tool specs are nice discussion points, however I will suggest that the most accurate test of a tools value is how it performs when used in true working conditions over a long period of time.
We have over 70 cordless power tools driven by battery systems ranging from 9.6V, 12V, 14.4V, 18V, to 24V utilizing NiCad and LI technology. We use and abuse them hard every day in rain, snow, plaster, concrete and filthy rotted wood debri. We work with them in temperatures below freezing and above 100 degrees. We abuse them by using them to the point of overheating and then going further until the casings become so hot they will burn your hand. We run batteries until they are discharged to zero. We don't do any of those things malisciously. They are just the challenges that tools used in professional applications face every day. The job must be done regardless of weather, availability of fresh batteries or the risk of possible damage to the tool.
We started with the Makita 9.6V Nicad system which was a very adaquate performer and would still be using them for some purposes except after we switched to the DeWalt 14.4 tools we had a chance to sell our entire inventory of Makita 9.6 and decided to do it to eliminate the number of batteries and chargers we needed to equip our crews with. We still have a couple of DeWalt 14.4V drills and they are used every day and one of them is ten years old. They are very adaquate performers for 95% of the drilling tasks our crews encounter daily. Yes, for 4" hole saw applications or for a
3/4" auger in to pressure treated we will reach for the Ridgid 24V drill, but the DeWalt 14.4V drill and NiCad battery combination is like the energizer bunny, ten years old and still going strong. I know some electrical contractors who have been using the Panasonic 14.4 drills for over ten years and would not accept any replacements because those drills have proven to be the most dependable performers over the years when used every day.
We started using Ridgid power tools two years ago primarily due to the potential cost savings related to the LSA which includes the batteries. We started with a 24V set which included the Hammer drill, recip saw, circ saw and light. As we developed confidence regarding Ridgid cordless tool durability we added several MaxSelect tools including the impact, portable planer, and jig saw. When the 18V LI compact drill was introduced we tried one of them and found them to be one of the best balanced, most controlable most usefull drills we have ever used. The Ridgid cordless tools have performed very well in very tough conditions and we continued to add them to our inventory until we currently own over sixty of them in all voltage sizes and applications. We also have several Ridgid corded tools including a
12" sliding miter, a compressor, and a contractor table saw.
We have never conducted battery tests or any of the other esoteric measures discussed by some in this forum. I read about them in Tools on Line and some of the other tests conducted by various publications. Those are interesting to read and compare to our experiances. We don't always agree with their results. It's important to remember that the battery is only one component of a tool "system". When we plug a battery into a drill and pull the trigger many other factors come into play that determine how usefull that tool will be the first day and ten years into the future. Just to list a few, the motor needs to be built to run efficiently to make maximum use of the current it is drawing from the battery. The motor must be durable enough to continue to function when it has ingested plaster dust, snow and all the other contaminents encoutered on a job site. The motor must be durable enough to to not melt down when worked so hard the case becomes to hot to touch. The motor must be mounted solidly enough so that when the drill is dropped ten feet onto a concrete floor it will stay together. I won't belabor the point, however it is important for the "power tool system" to have high quality motors, chucks, bearings, trigger controls, cases and other components in order to be a usefull tool. It is not always the most powerfull, or fastest, or lightest or greatest run time tool that is the best "on the job" tool.
The truth is that a battery operated power tool starts to deteriorate the very first time we use it. The batteries begin declining in efficiency, the bearings start to wear, the motor brushes begin getting dirty, and the lubricants start to break down. I suggest that simple non performance battery tests of a new battery is not a very good measurment of how a battery power tool will perform every day and over time on the job site. I have never heard contractors rate their tools on the basis of battery tests. We talk in terms of power, durability, and capability of the tool on the job not on a test bench.
Our experiance would indicate that there is a place for both NiCad and LI batts in power tools. For most applications voltages above 18 are not necessary and weight, durability and balance would seem to be the more important considerations. We have had no experiance with the Nano technology however reports indicate it will be a viable addition to the mix.
In closing I suggest that less focus on the battery specs and more focus on tool system capability is the correct way of evaluating tool usefulness.
.....Ray

[Tennesseepowerstroke]

1.5 Ah battery provides half the current of 3Ah battery, so the tools would be weaker at high loads, but work at approximately same RPM under zero load.

to get the runtime you multiply the voltage by capacity and you get energy, taking into account that at higher voltage tools will be more efficient (10-15%) because they use less current to generate same torque/power. Then you test a tool with either battery and you get the energy consumption.

For example 18v 3Ah battery would have 54 Watt-hour energy. Of course this is not a real figure as the battery would never give up full 3 Ah, simply because it is a maximum theoretical capacity claimed by the manufacturer, battery never fully discharges, and battery never fully charges. The real energy can only be calculated using a computerized charger/discharger. This has been done for A123 batteries (Dewalt) and Sony/Konion batteries (Makita/Bosch) and Moli Energy (Milwaukee V28 / Ridgid 24v), but I haven't found 18v Li-Ion ridgid tests. Dig around on RCGroups.com.

You also have to take into account the battery management system that disconnects the battery when per-cell voltage is too low. 18v and 24v batteries might have different cutoff voltage because they use different size/chemistry cells.

Some tools also use DC-DC stepdown converters to bring the voltage down from 24 to 18 (Dewalt does it in their cordless vac) so the motor RPM will be the same at both voltages, hence same sound pitch. DC-DC converters waste a lot of energy as heat so you might not see any difference between a 24v and 18v battery with equal capacity in such devices.

There are many factors, so the best way is just to test it using both batteries. If you are lazy, charge them and stick them into the incandescent light and time how long it works.

The Ridgid rep told me the tool determines the power and this is why the specs are better for the new X3 tools than the Max Select tools. She said this is why the X3 has more power. This makes sense to me. I took the Max Select combo back and purchased the X3 5 piece combo set which has a $50 rebate. The tools definitely feel better in your hands. They are smaller and lighter but who knows if they are better built.

I'm not lazy but don't have the free time to see how long a flashlight will burn with an 18V battery. My 18 year old 9.6V Makita batteries will still power my Makita flashlight for over 2 hours.

[DRC-Wartex]

roadrashray, the original question was pertaining the runtime of a 24v battery in a dual voltage tool.

To put it simply, energy of a 18v Li-ion battery is 50.4 watt-hours and 24v is 69.6 w-h, which gives us about 38% longer runtime. I can bet you $500 that my figure is within 5% accurate. And no matter how you twist it, how old your drill is or how hard you drive it etc etc, that factor will always stay the same as long as both batteries are used in the same tool, if there is no voltage conversion.

You already posted your essay once, and you are obviously hinting at me when talking about "some people", it seems you rather enjoy the sound of your keyboard. All your jobsite experience is fluff. It only reflects habits of a particular group, and based on your ravings, I can tell that you simply don't use your tools properly if you drive them to a point where they overheat and overdischarge batteries, no matter what your excuse is. Abusing tools is not a way to measure their performance. You can have 2 identical drills and one may fail in half the time compared to the other one if abused, and that tells you nothing. Minor defect in tool materials will prove to be fatal under extreme loads and insignificant under normal loads. If your Ridgid works to a point where motor smokes and Makita shuts off when you exceed manufacturer specs, that doesn't make Ridgid a better tool. That just means less thought was put into the safety of Ridgid (or whatever brand, don't mean to pick on Ridgid) tool. It's all perceptional.

Power tool use varies so greatly from person to person and from job to job that the there is no way to calculate accurate metrics based solely on some construction workers' hearsay.

After many many years of "testing" on construction sites, there are always some crews who swear by Bosch, and some that love Makita and wouldn't touch anything else and so on. One would think we would single out the best performers, but yet will still have such a large variety.

All of them are governed by laws of physics, and tool performance can be calculated and projected into a real world. Best indicator for manufacturer is service center activity and lab tests. This is why they specify accessories and tool capabilities in the manual, so that you can get the best performance and determine the best tool for the job.

There is only so much you can improve in a DC motor (which has been improved for over 150 years) or a MOSFET (ooo, big words) or gearbox, but there is a lot more you can do in the battery department. So when it comes to performance, battery plays a dominant role. If you take 2 drills of ANY manufacturer, and load them at the same RPM with the same work with identical batteries, your performance difference will be negligent. If you repeatedly bash your tools into the concrete and fill motors with dirt and one stays in one piece longer then the other, well, that just means you are a lucky dumbass. I renovated houses and framed many walls and there is not a mark on my Milwaukee nailgun, and I drove A LOT of nails with it. And I've seen people who pull the drill out of the box and in 20 minutes chuck is plugged up with drywall dust and tar is all over the body, doesn't make them a "pro" in any way. You seem to dwell on the idea that if the tool is overheated, driven hard, dirty and abused and it stands up it makes it a good tool. It only makes it long-lasting. But in terms of how much work you get done with this tool per hour, that is a totally different story.

Cordless tools are used in many other industries and in some applications, battery energy and weight will play the primary role, and torque, speed and gimmicks such as LED or trigger smoothness and bit holders will play a secondary role, such as aerospace. In metalworking speed plays a big role, and in concrete work - mechanical reliability.

I'm not saying that jobsite tests are bad, I'm just saying they are grossly inaccurate and personal, so whatever performance you percieve on the jobsite is only valid for your particular work habit and your job types.

[Ru&Lins_05]

If you repeatedly bash your tools into the concrete and fill motors with dirt and one stays in one piece longer then the other, well, that just means you are a lucky dumbass.

First, wow lets keep the forum friendly huh? Second, Reputation is a big part of the tool industry and when someone you trust tells you, "I don't use DeWalt b/c..." you think second about buying that exact tool, you don't ask, gee i wonder if he babied his tools or even if he took care of them. I agree that tests are important to look into and are interesting, but if the battery makes the drill run long enough to get jobs done then great! If the chuck fails or the gears grind under a tough load I don't think its a saftey mechanism, its just a sucky tool. ;)

[Tennesseepowerstroke]

The run time is the same for the vacuum but the strokes and rpms of the maxselect saws are higher with the 24v battery I think. I own some max select tools, jigsaw, planer, and yes the caulk gun (which i think is great but i won't get into that) and the 24v battery is better on these. The vac i'm not sure, maybe is sucks harder with the 24v but I'm not sure. What i do know is that the X3 tools are freakin nice. I have the x2 and have recently got the X3 system. The performance is better than the maxselect even when you're using the 24v. The recip saw is 100% better than the maxselect or X2 version, doens't get all clogged up and cuts so much faster, its great. The smaller hammer drill is nice too, not nearly as bulky as the X2. When you say maxselect kit I'm assuming you mean the 8 pc set. That is a really good set but the new saws and smaller drill in my opinion are nicer. But I'm pretty sure the 8 pc is cheaper than the new 5 pc x3, not sure though. So I guess what I'm saying is I think th X3 is a better system than the x2 or the maxselect and if you don't mind paying a little more and you don't need the jigsaw or caulk gun then get the x3. Hope that helps :confused:

I returned the 24v combo and purchased the X3 combo set. These tools [drill and batteries] are much smaller and lighter. According to Ridgid tech support they will outperform the 24 volt tools. This may or may not be correct. I do know I tried the 24v and 18v freshly charged batteries in the vac again. The 24v cut off at 15 minutes this time and 1 of the 18v batteries lasted 20 minutes with the other lasting 21 minutes [3.0 AH]. With the specs for the X2 tools with 18V batteries being better than specs for the MaxSelect with a 24V batteries it made my choice an easy one. Reliability could be better or worse than the MaxSelect tools but with a back up Autoshift drill and the LSA I will be ok. The X2 Hammer Drill is smaller than the Autoshift drill and the trigger is more ergonomicaly designed.

[Tennesseepowerstroke]

1.5 Ah battery provides half the current of 3Ah battery, so the tools would be weaker at high loads, but work at approximately same RPM under zero load.

to get the runtime you multiply the voltage by capacity and you get energy, taking into account that at higher voltage tools will be more efficient (10-15%) because they use less current to generate same torque/power. Then you test a tool with either battery and you get the energy consumption.

For example 18v 3Ah battery would have 54 Watt-hour energy. Of course this is not a real figure as the battery would never give up full 3 Ah, simply because it is a maximum theoretical capacity claimed by the manufacturer, battery never fully discharges, and battery never fully charges. The real energy can only be calculated using a computerized charger/discharger. This has been done for A123 batteries (Dewalt) and Sony/Konion batteries (Makita/Bosch) and Moli Energy (Milwaukee V28 / Ridgid 24v), but I haven't found 18v Li-Ion ridgid tests. Dig around on RCGroups.com.

You also have to take into account the battery management system that disconnects the battery when per-cell voltage is too low. 18v and 24v batteries might have different cutoff voltage because they use different size/chemistry cells.

Some tools also use DC-DC stepdown converters to bring the voltage down from 24 to 18 (Dewalt does it in their cordless vac) so the motor RPM will be the same at both voltages, hence same sound pitch. DC-DC converters waste a lot of energy as heat so you might not see any difference between a 24v and 18v battery with equal capacity in such devices.

There are many factors, so the best way is just to test it using both batteries. If you are lazy, charge them and stick them into the incandescent light and time how long it works.

You are probably correct with voltage [24v] being stepped down to 18V for the cordless vac. The pitch is the same with both batteries. I'm not lazy but I know it would take a long time to drain a battery with the flashlight. My 18 year old 9.6v Makita batteries still power the flashlight for over 2 hours.

[Tennesseepowerstroke]

Yes, we do comparisons with power tools every day by using them in very arduous conditions. Battery capacity specifications, no load or light load run times, power tool specs are nice discussion points, however I will suggest that the most accurate test of a tools value is how it performs when used in true working conditions over a long period of time.
We have over 70 cordless power tools driven by battery systems ranging from 9.6V, 12V, 14.4V, 18V, to 24V utilizing NiCad and LI technology. We use and abuse them hard every day in rain, snow, plaster, concrete and filthy rotted wood debri. We work with them in temperatures below freezing and above 100 degrees. We abuse them by using them to the point of overheating and then going further until the casings become so hot they will burn your hand. We run batteries until they are discharged to zero. We don't do any of those things malisciously. They are just the challenges that tools used in professional applications face every day. The job must be done regardless of weather, availability of fresh batteries or the risk of possible damage to the tool.
We started with the Makita 9.6V Nicad system which was a very adaquate performer and would still be using them for some purposes except after we switched to the DeWalt 14.4 tools we had a chance to sell our entire inventory of Makita 9.6 and decided to do it to eliminate the number of batteries and chargers we needed to equip our crews with. We still have a couple of DeWalt 14.4V drills and they are used every day and one of them is ten years old. They are very adaquate performers for 95% of the drilling tasks our crews encounter daily. Yes, for 4" hole saw applications or for a
3/4" auger in to pressure treated we will reach for the Ridgid 24V drill, but the DeWalt 14.4V drill and NiCad battery combination is like the energizer bunny, ten years old and still going strong. I know some electrical contractors who have been using the Panasonic 14.4 drills for over ten years and would not accept any replacements because those drills have proven to be the most dependable performers over the years when used every day.
We started using Ridgid power tools two years ago primarily due to the potential cost savings related to the LSA which includes the batteries. We started with a 24V set which included the Hammer drill, recip saw, circ saw and light. As we developed confidence regarding Ridgid cordless tool durability we added several MaxSelect tools including the impact, portable planer, and jig saw. When the 18V LI compact drill was introduced we tried one of them and found them to be one of the best balanced, most controlable most usefull drills we have ever used. The Ridgid cordless tools have performed very well in very tough conditions and we continued to add them to our inventory until we currently own over sixty of them in all voltage sizes and applications. We also have several Ridgid corded tools including a
12" sliding miter, a compressor, and a contractor table saw.
We have never conducted battery tests or any of the other esoteric measures discussed by some in this forum. I read about them in Tools on Line and some of the other tests conducted by various publications. Those are interesting to read and compare to our experiances. We don't always agree with their results. It's important to remember that the battery is only one component of a tool "system". When we plug a battery into a drill and pull the trigger many other factors come into play that determine how usefull that tool will be the first day and ten years into the future. Just to list a few, the motor needs to be built to run efficiently to make maximum use of the current it is drawing from the battery. The motor must be durable enough to continue to function when it has ingested plaster dust, snow and all the other contaminents encoutered on a job site. The motor must be durable enough to to not melt down when worked so hard the case becomes to hot to touch. The motor must be mounted solidly enough so that when the drill is dropped ten feet onto a concrete floor it will stay together. I won't belabor the point, however it is important for the "power tool system" to have high quality motors, chucks, bearings, trigger controls, cases and other components in order to be a usefull tool. It is not always the most powerfull, or fastest, or lightest or greatest run time tool that is the best "on the job" tool.
The truth is that a battery operated power tool starts to deteriorate the very first time we use it. The batteries begin declining in efficiency, the bearings start to wear, the motor brushes begin getting dirty, and the lubricants start to break down. I suggest that simple non performance battery tests of a new battery is not a very good measurment of how a battery power tool will perform every day and over time on the job site. I have never heard contractors rate their tools on the basis of battery tests. We talk in terms of power, durability, and capability of the tool on the job not on a test bench.
Our experiance would indicate that there is a place for both NiCad and LI batts in power tools. For most applications voltages above 18 are not necessary and weight, durability and balance would seem to be the more important considerations. We have had no experiance with the Nano technology however reports indicate it will be a viable addition to the mix.
In closing I suggest that less focus on the battery specs and more focus on tool system capability is the correct way of evaluating tool usefulness.
.....Ray

I believe the X3 is a more capable system. That is why I asked the question about battery comparison. They could be wrong, but Ridgids website specs are better for the 18V system. I had a few concerns about the MaxSelect tools. Weight being #1. Then the circular saw kept stalling cutting treated lumber. I will find out if the X3 circular saw does this. I think the orbital action of the reciprocating saw can only be a positive addition. I also picked up the 4 piece combo kit for the radio, batteries and the Autoshift drill for a back up. I will get rid of the Makita and keep the Autoshift in the RV. It might have been these particular 24V batteries, but 18V batteries that run longer in a tool at close to half the weight, smaller size and can be found everywhere clinched the deal for me.

Your results or opinions may vary. More opinions welcome.

[Tennesseepowerstroke]

1.5 Ah battery provides half the current of 3Ah battery, so the tools would be weaker at high loads, but work at approximately same RPM under zero load.

to get the runtime you multiply the voltage by capacity and you get energy, taking into account that at higher voltage tools will be more efficient (10-15%) because they use less current to generate same torque/power. Then you test a tool with either battery and you get the energy consumption.

For example 18v 3Ah battery would have 54 Watt-hour energy. Of course this is not a real figure as the battery would never give up full 3 Ah, simply because it is a maximum theoretical capacity claimed by the manufacturer, battery never fully discharges, and battery never fully charges. The real energy can only be calculated using a computerized charger/discharger. This has been done for A123 batteries (Dewalt) and Sony/Konion batteries (Makita/Bosch) and Moli Energy (Milwaukee V28 / Ridgid 24v), but I haven't found 18v Li-Ion ridgid tests. Dig around on RCGroups.com.

You also have to take into account the battery management system that disconnects the battery when per-cell voltage is too low. 18v and 24v batteries might have different cutoff voltage because they use different size/chemistry cells.

Some tools also use DC-DC stepdown converters to bring the voltage down from 24 to 18 (Dewalt does it in their cordless vac) so the motor RPM will be the same at both voltages, hence same sound pitch. DC-DC converters waste a lot of energy as heat so you might not see any difference between a 24v and 18v battery with equal capacity in such devices.

There are many factors, so the best way is just to test it using both batteries. If you are lazy, charge them and stick them into the incandescent light and time how long it works.

DRC-Wartex

A Ridgid rep did confirm that the MaxSelect tools have a switch to step the 24 volts down to 18 volts. Makes me wonder if there is even a single advantage of any kind to the 24V MaxSelect tools.

[Andrew M.]

I find that hard to believe when the rpms and performance are way different now that I have the 24v. The 24v batt. makes them run much better. Ridgig even has different rpm ratings based on batt. used. The 18v max select circ saw was nearly useless on 18v.

[Tennesseepowerstroke]

I find that hard to believe when the rpms and performance are way different now that I have the 24v. The 24v batt. makes them run much better. Ridgig even has different rpm ratings based on batt. used. The 18v max select circ saw was nearly useless on 18v.

What do you find hard to believe. Go to their website and read the specs. Are you comparing the 24V lithium to the old 18V nicad or the new 18V 3.0 AH lithium?

[roadrashray]

A Ridgid rep did confirm that the MaxSelect tools have a switch to step the 24 volts down to 18 volts. Makes me wonder if there is even a single advantage of any kind to the 24V MaxSelect tools.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Originally Posted by Andrew M.
I find that hard to believe when the rpms and performance are way different now that I have the 24v. The 24v batt. makes them run much better. Ridgig even has different rpm ratings based on batt. used. The 18v max select circ saw was nearly useless on 18v.

Originally Posted by Tennesseepowerstroke
What do you find hard to believe. Go to their website and read the specs. Are you comparing the 24V lithium to the old 18V nicad or the new 18V 3.0 AH lithium?

I agree with Andrew on this point. Ridgid specification's http://www.ridgid.com/Tools/R8823-Dual-Voltage-Impact-Driver/EN/index.htm and our extensive personal experiance using these tools daily during the last two years has demonstrated that there is a significant performance difference with the MaxSelect tools when using the 24V batts vs 18V batts LI or NiCad. You had previously noted that the circ saw had a tendency to bind easily using the 24V batts. I can assure you that if you tried it using 18V batts it will barely cut a piece of 2 by.

[Tennesseepowerstroke]

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I agree with Andrew on this point. Ridgid specification's http://www.ridgid.com/Tools/R8823-Dual-Voltage-Impact-Driver/EN/index.htm and our extensive personal experiance using these tools daily during the last two years has demonstrated that there is a significant performance difference with the MaxSelect tools when using the 24V batts vs 18V batts LI or NiCad. You had previously noted that the circ saw had a tendency to bind easily using the 24V batts. I can assure you that if you tried it using 18V batts it will barely cut a piece of 2 by.

I am sure this is true with an 18V battery in the MaxSelect circular saw. I was comparing the specs of the MaxSelect circular saw with 24V battery to the specs of the X3 Circular saw with an 18V battery.

[papadan]

.

You already posted your essay once, and you are obviously hinting at me when talking about "some people", it seems you rather enjoy the sound of your keyboard. All your jobsite experience is fluff. OK, Who chit in this guys cheerios? "It only reflects habits of a particular group, and based on your ravings, I can tell that you simply don't use your tools properly if you drive them to a point where they overheat and overdischarge batteries, no matter what your excuse is." Sounds like typical company supplied tools to me, see it everyday and it is a great indicator of the durability of a tool.

[DRC-Wartex]

OK, Who chit in this guys cheerios? "It only reflects habits of a particular group, and based on your ravings, I can tell that you simply don't use your tools properly if you drive them to a point where they overheat and overdischarge batteries, no matter what your excuse is." Sounds like typical company supplied tools to me, see it everyday and it is a great indicator of the durability of a tool.

People who claim that they can measure tool performance better than a laboratory by using the tool in a completely random pattern with a random load and for a completely random duration of time, and confuse durability and performance.

[canucksartech]

Has anyone done a comparison? I charged both batteries and wanted to see how long they would run my cordless vac. Both batteries ran the vac for 16 minutes before it shut down. My 18V 1.5 AH battery ran it only for 11 minutes which can be expected. If the first two batteries lasted the same would Max select power tools and batteries be needed or would there be any advantage to them. The new X3 set actually has better specs than the older Max Select tools. I am thinking of returning the Max Select kit and purchasing the X3 combo. Any thoughts or experiences with these sets are welcome. I just don't want the extra weight and size of the Max Select tools if the X3 tools perform just as well or run as long on 18 volt 3AH batteries.

I did a review a while back on the MaxSelect vac with both the 1.5 Ah lithium ion batteries and the 24 volt 3.0 Ah XLi batteries, when I first got that vac - check it out if you wish for runtimes, etc.:

http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16172

DRC-Wartex

A Ridgid rep did confirm that the MaxSelect tools have a switch to step the 24 volts down to 18 volts. Makes me wonder if there is even a single advantage of any kind to the 24V MaxSelect tools.

Like others have said, this appears to be another piece of bad information that a Ridgid rep has put out. Maybe this is the case with the MaxSelect flashlight, as there is no perceptable brightness difference with either the 24 volt or 18 volt batteries (and it would make sense here, so as not to burn out the 18 volt lightbulb). However, there is a huge difference with most of the MaxSelect tools depending on the battery voltage being used. Take for example the MaxSelect circular saw - the RPMs and cuts of that saw, with 18 volt compared to 24 volts, are drastically different.

Now, with the new X3 lineup, who knows - things may have changed, where the X3 circular saw running with an 18 volt battery could be the same as, or much better to, the MaxSelect circ saw running with a 24 volt XLi battery (thereby negating the benefit, and making the extra weight not worthwhile).

However, with the power hungry MaxSelect tools (circ saw, recip saw, jig saw), and even with the MaxSelect impact, there is a huge difference when running 24 volt batteries compared to 18 volts.

[canucksartech]

You had previously noted that the circ saw had a tendency to bind easily using the 24V batts. I can assure you that if you tried it using 18V batts it will barely cut a piece of 2 by.

Nothing beats a good Freud blade (either the red Freud Diablo, or the gold Ridgid Titanium) to solve that problem... :D

[Ru&Lins_05]

People who claim that they can measure tool performance better than a laboratory by using the tool in a completely random pattern with a random load and for a completely random duration of time, and confuse durability and performance.

Performance is nothing without durability so you can take your efficient tools and I'll take the ones that last. Tools aren't made to perform better in a lab, they're made to work at a construction site or in a shop or whatever.

Anyway, as far as the x3 series goes, the performance is much better than the x2 when talking about the circ saw. The spec sheet shows a much higher zero load rpm than the older one but having used both, the increased rpms definately do transfer to a cutting through butter sensation with a treated 2 x 4 (didn't use the blade that came with the saw). This seems obvious I know, but I have used my friends B&D firestorm 18V which had better rpm speeds than the old x2 but it seemed to struggle even more with the pressure treated 2x4 than my x2 Ridigd did. I finally had an opportunity to use it pretty heavily this past weekend. I forgot to count how many cuts the batteries lasted though, I was too busy contemplating why I haven't bought a collated screw gun until now.

[Tennesseepowerstroke]

I did a review a while back on the MaxSelect vac with both the 1.5 Ah lithium ion batteries and the 24 volt 3.0 Ah XLi batteries, when I first got that vac - check it out if you wish for runtimes, etc.:

http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16172



Like others have said, this appears to be another piece of bad information that a Ridgid rep has put out. Maybe this is the case with the MaxSelect flashlight, as there is no perceptable brightness difference with either the 24 volt or 18 volt batteries (and it would make sense here, so as not to burn out the 18 volt lightbulb). However, there is a huge difference with most of the MaxSelect tools depending on the battery voltage being used. Take for example the MaxSelect circular saw - the RPMs and cuts of that saw, with 18 volt compared to 24 volts, are drastically different.

Now, with the new X3 lineup, who knows - things may have changed, where the X3 circular saw running with an 18 volt battery could be the same as, or much better to, the MaxSelect circ saw running with a 24 volt XLi battery (thereby negating the benefit, and making the extra weight not worthwhile).

However, with the power hungry MaxSelect tools (circ saw, recip saw, jig saw), and even with the MaxSelect impact, there is a huge difference when running 24 volt batteries compared to 18 volts.

I had already searched that review out and read it. Good review and I agree. I have got 21 and 22 minutes respectively of run time with the 18V 3.0AH lithium batteries where my 24V 3.0AH lithium battery will last a few seconds over 15 minutes in the cordless vac. This is a run time test and not a power test, but their is no percievable difference in the pitch or noise of the vac. Who knows what RPM the motor is turning.

[Ru&Lins_05]

Faster than I can count:D

[canucksartech]

I had already searched that review out and read it. Good review and I agree. I have got 21 and 22 minutes respectively of run time with the 18V 3.0AH lithium batteries where my 24V 3.0AH lithium battery will last a few seconds over 15 minutes in the cordless vac. This is a run time test and not a power test, but their is no percievable difference in the pitch or noise of the vac. Who knows what RPM the motor is turning.

I'm wondering then if you got a dud 24 volt battery then. It sounds about right, the run time that you're getting with the 3.0 Ah 18 volt batteries. But you should get a bit better with the 24 volts. Also, with you stating that "their is no perceivable difference in the pitch or noise of the vac", whether with the 18 or 24 volt batteries, sounds iffy to me - there should be a fairly noticable difference. That's what I've experienced, anyways - but I think others have the same results.

[tinmack]

Now, with the new X3 lineup, who knows - things may have changed, where the X3 circular saw running with an 18 volt battery could be the same as, or much better to, the MaxSelect circ saw running with a 24 volt XLi battery (thereby negating the benefit, and making the extra weight not worthwhile).

However, with the power hungry MaxSelect tools (circ saw, recip saw, jig saw), and even with the MaxSelect impact, there is a huge difference when running 24 volt batteries compared to 18 volts.

Are the specs on the new 18 volt lithium combos any different than the old 18 volt tools packaged with the nicads? Or did they just jazz up the look and add some overmold to the grips and such?:scratchhead:

I'm suspicious........

And regardless, I would still take the 24 volt batts over the 18 volt for the MaxSelect tools. I used the caulking gun with the 18 and the 24 and the pressure buildup at shut-off intervals seemed less with the 24 volt. Could be my imagination... The specs certainly support a difference with the impact driver and the circular saw as well, although I can't say I have experienced it first hand.

Regardless, I tried the 24 volt, grabbed the compact lithium instead when the deal on the compact drill came out, and now I'm gonna grab a set of 24 volt batteries at a discount.

The prices out there now on the 24 volt stuff is too good to pass up, plus the tools in the 24 volt combo kits are MaxSelect compatible, so you'll always be able to use 18 volt nicad or lithium batts in it even if you can't get 24 volt for them.

Just my 2 cents. Although I am curious about the new kits - is it just a battery change, or a tool upgrade as well? Hmmmmm....:confused:

[Velosapien]

A Ridgid rep did confirm that the MaxSelect tools have a switch to step the 24 volts down to 18 volts. Makes me wonder if there is even a single advantage of any kind to the 24V MaxSelect tools.

If this is the case I wonder if this is only with some tools. I can't imagine any good reason why they'd do that for a tool like a circular saw which can take advantage of the higher voltage batteries. With other tools like impact drivers it would actually make sense since battery voltage doesn't really change their power, the anvil does. Bigger batteries just run them longer.

[canucksartech]

Could be my imagination... The specs certainly support a difference with the impact driver and the circular saw as well, although I can't say I have experienced it first hand.


From personal ownership experience, very noticable on the following MaxSelect tools - circular saw, reciprocating saw, jigsaw, cordless wet/dry vac, router, and even with the impact driver. Higher speeds (no-load and under-load RPMs), better motor torque, more cuts per charge, and therefore longer runtimes.

Nothing noticable with the 24 volt flashlight (apparently also a MaxSelect version) that's included with the 24 volt kit (the one with the hammerdrill and recip). Also, no extended usage experience with the MaxSelect caulking gun (stoopid tool!). And finally, nothing really noticed with the newer little MaxSelect radio (the new one in the AutoShift kit) - but just got this, so unknown if there will be a dramatically longer runtime with the higher voltage batteries.

[canucksartech]

If this is the case I wonder if this is only with some tools. I can't imagine any good reason why they'd do that for a tool like a circular saw which can take advantage of the higher voltage batteries. With other tools like impact drivers it would actually make sense since battery voltage doesn't really change their power, the anvil does. Bigger batteries just run them longer.

I still notice a difference with the impact - higher RPMs, equals out to better rates of impacts/beats. What I think you mean here, I agree - the bigger battery doesn't amp up the torque/inch lbs. of the tool, as that is regulated by the anvil. But the higher rates of turning/beats are a big advantage.

But a big torque difference on the other tools.

The only tool I can see a voltage regulator being beneficial with is the small portable radio and the flashlight.

[tinmack]

Also, no extended usage experience with the MaxSelect caulking gun (stoopid tool!).

Not stoopid if you've got a couple of cases of caulk to apply. Did some board and batten on an old shed this past summer and when you've got a couple thousand feet to caulk, the battery powered caulking gun is pretty keen.:cool:

Any idea though if the "new" 18 volt tools are different from the "old" 18 volt tools other than the pretty new design and the new lithium batts that come with 'em?

[canucksartech]

Not stoopid if you've got a couple of cases of caulk to apply. Did some board and batten on an old shed this past summer and when you've got a couple thousand feet to caulk, the battery powered caulking gun is pretty keen.:cool:

I know, I know. There's a use for them somewhere, by someone. But it's like a Yugo to me - some ridiculous contraption, that the vast majority of the purchasing public goes "yuck" to, and that seems to have, as cheap as it is, a way higher selling price than you think it's worth. Nah, I'm an old curmudgeon on this issue - STOOPID TOOL! :D :thumbup2: :rolleyes:

Any idea though if the "new" 18 volt tools are different from the "old" 18 volt tools other than the pretty new design and the new lithium batts that come with 'em?

No, I haven't had a chance to play with them in the real world yet. Haven't had a chance to even look around online and check out the spec differences - the "daddy daycare" thing is keeping me pretty busy right now.

I did have the chance to play with them at a neighbouring Michigan store over the weekend. Something about the new rubberized overmolding, I just don't seem to like. My best example is on the back/bottom side of the handle of the circ saw. The rubberized overmolding has a few distinct "lines" of rubber, to form a bit of a pattern that's different from the 24 volt / MaxSelect versions. Well, this rubberized overmolding seems to be a fair bit more pliable and raised - seems to me like it would be easier to rip off. I know, seems miniscule, but I like my overmolding to stay where it's overmolded - I don't like super-gluing stuff like that back onto my tools, so that I can continue to have a more comfortable grip (something that some of the 12 and 14 volt Makita tools have done and have been a nightmare for me in the past).

[Velosapien]

I still notice a difference with the impact - higher RPMs, equals out to better rates of impacts/beats. What I think you mean here, I agree - the bigger battery doesn't amp up the torque/inch lbs. of the tool, as that is regulated by the anvil. But the higher rates of turning/beats are a big advantage.

But a big torque difference on the other tools.

The only tool I can see a voltage regulator being beneficial with is the small portable radio and the flashlight.

No doubt about that. Just pointing out that the possibility certainly isn't unfeasable. Just that in some tools like the circular saw the difference would be undeniable even cutting a simple 2X4. On the impact it's something that might be sacrificed for longer runtime and there's a good chance it would not be as noticeable to really affect how it performs in average tasks.

I would however not base anything just on the pitch and noise made by the tool as a sign that voltage is in fact not being stepped down. I'd look for clearly definable differences in how it performs. A slight difference in voltage will make the tool sound very discernably different. If you were to take two identical 18v batteries, one brand new charging up to say 20v and one slightly worn and only doing 19.25v, plug them into the same tool you'll notice the motor sounds quite different. If a 24v battery is stepped down to 18v it would still sound differently because it's highly unlikely it will step down to the identical voltage of any given 18v battery.

[canucksartech]

I would however not base anything just on the pitch and noise made by the tool as a sign that voltage is in fact not being stepped down. I'd look for clearly definable differences in how it performs. A slight difference in voltage will make the tool sound very discernably different. If you were to take two identical 18v batteries, one brand new charging up to say 20v and one slightly worn and only doing 19.25v, plug them into the same tool you'll notice the motor sounds quite different. If a 24v battery is stepped down to 18v it would still sound differently because it's highly unlikely it will step down to the identical voltage of any given 18v battery.

Granted, but my personal experience with this tool is that I just don't believe it to be so. I've used with varying versions of the 18 volt batteries, in various states of charge, and even compared to a nearly dead 24 volt, there's a huge difference. Just not something that feels like the voltage has been stepped down. Hard to explain, but it just has a better "ooomph" output. :rolleyes:

[Ru&Lins_05]

Any idea though if the "new" 18 volt tools are different from the "old" 18 volt tools other than the pretty new design and the new lithium batts that come with 'em?

If new you mean X3 as the new and X2 as the old, then yes there is a big difference between the tools themselves. Spec sheet states 4400 rpm on the circ saw for the x3, x2 is only 2500, recip saw for the x3 is 3300 spm with the straight orbital setting option, while the x2 is only 2500. Impact looks to be the same spec wise (x2 was better than the max select to begin with) as well as the drill. The Drill, impact and circ all have LED's, the drill is more compact and lighter.

As I mentioned the redesign of the recip saw earlier in the post, easier blade change, better design to keep debris from clogging the shaft. Also mentioned a noticable difference when cutting pressure treated lumber with the new circ saw. Both the saws and the impact specs are better than that of the max select even with the 24v batteries.

I agree though the design is pretty :o, thats how I convinced my wife to let me get them for my sweetest day present, "they looks so much nicer though sweetheart!"

[Tennesseepowerstroke]

If new you mean X3 as the new and X2 as the old, then yes there is a big difference between the tools themselves. Spec sheet states 4400 rpm on the circ saw for the x3, x2 is only 2500, recip saw for the x3 is 3300 spm with the straight orbital setting option, while the x2 is only 2500. Impact looks to be the same spec wise (x2 was better than the max select to begin with) as well as the drill. The Drill, impact and circ all have LED's, the drill is more compact and lighter.

As I mentioned the redesign of the recip saw earlier in the post, easier blade change, better design to keep debris from clogging the shaft. Also mentioned a noticable difference when cutting pressure treated lumber with the new circ saw. Both the saws and the impact specs are better than that of the max select even with the 24v batteries.

I agree though the design is pretty :o, thats how I convinced my wife to let me get them for my sweetest day present, "they looks so much nicer though sweetheart!"

And don't forget, you get that neat new flashlight with the X3 kit. The new flourescent flashlight is MaxSelect. The 24V batteries will work with it.

[tinmack]

And don't forget, you get that neat new flashlight with the X3 kit. The new flourescent flashlight is MaxSelect. The 24V batteries will work with it.

That seems in keeping with the older flashlights which were 18 and 24 volt compatible too.

[Frankiarmz]

I don't want to knock the fluorescent light but LED is really the way to go if you want long run times, plenty of light, safety from a drop and never having to change a bulb again ever. Sure hope Ridgid decides to step up and make one.

[Tennesseepowerstroke]

That seems in keeping with the older flashlights which were 18 and 24 volt compatible too.

I didn't think the flashlight in the autoshift, radio, etc 4 piece kit was 24V compatable. I will have to check mine out.

[canucksartech]

I don't want to knock the fluorescent light but LED is really the way to go if you want long run times, plenty of light, safety from a drop and never having to change a bulb again ever. Sure hope Ridgid decides to step up and make one.

I've got a little LED flashlight from Bosch, which works with their 10.8V / 12V lithium ion batteries that come with their 3 small Impactor-type tools (right-angle and drill). It works awesome. It's almost the exact same as the flashlight that was a bonus tool included with certain packages of the 10.8V right-angle impactor here in North America (has a swiveling head to the flashlight, I believe). But the LED version is a fixed head, and I think was/is only available through the European market - found it on eBay. Works awesome.

[canucksartech]

I didn't think the flashlight in the autoshift, radio, etc 4 piece kit was 24V compatable. I will have to check mine out.

No, it isn't. It's the 18 volt model of the flashlight that's included in the R969 AutoShift kit (I just returned a kit - bench tested it for 2 months, just didn't like it at all, too firm of a trigger on the AutoShift for my liking). Just as Ridgid also has a 14 volt version of their flashlight (I think there's also another smaller voltage version of Ridgid's lantern flashlight, I think 12 or 9.6 volt), and each of those only work with the specified voltage battery (not MaxSelect capable).

I think what Tinmack was referring to was the flashlight that comes with the 24 volt tools. That version of the flashlight (distinguished by it's additional coverage of rubberized overmolding on the handle and base) is basically a MaxSelect tool, even though it doesn't have the MaxSelect logo printed on it. It does say either on the label or in it's instruction manual (can't remember where right now, and not able to go out into my garage to check), that this version of the flashlight will accept either 18 or 24 volt batteries, and is inherently MaxSelect.

[tinmack]

No, it isn't. It's the 18 volt model of the flashlight that's included in the R969 AutoShift kit (I just returned a kit - bench tested it for 2 months, just didn't like it at all, too firm of a trigger on the AutoShift for my liking). Just as Ridgid also has a 14 volt version of their flashlight (I think there's also another smaller voltage version of Ridgid's lantern flashlight, I think 12 or 9.6 volt), and each of those only work with the specified voltage battery (not MaxSelect capable).

I think what Tinmack was referring to was the flashlight that comes with the 24 volt tools. That version of the flashlight (distinguished by it's additional coverage of rubberized overmolding on the handle and base) is basically a MaxSelect tool, even though it doesn't have the MaxSelect logo printed on it. It does say either on the label or in it's instruction manual (can't remember where right now, and not able to go out into my garage to check), that this version of the flashlight will accept either 18 or 24 volt batteries, and is inherently MaxSelect.

You're being too kind in explaining my mistake.:o

Yeah, I kinda(really) got things mixed up. The R849 light is 18 volt and the R859(with the overmold/24 volt version) will take 18 or 24 volt batts. You would think that all lights put out once 24 volt/MaxSelect came on line WOULD have taken both batts automatically. I'm assuming though that there's a warehouse stocked full of the old lights somewhere.....

My mistake, sorry.:(

[Tennesseepowerstroke]

No, it isn't. It's the 18 volt model of the flashlight that's included in the R969 AutoShift kit (I just returned a kit - bench tested it for 2 months, just didn't like it at all, too firm of a trigger on the AutoShift for my liking).

I agree about the AutoShift Drill having too firm a trigger. It is also akwardly placed [too big a grip]. I opened a business account [$100 off first purchase and had a $50 off coupon] so I got this kit for the radio. batteries and charger. After I build my deck I will sell the impact as I have the X3. From the look of ebay prices, the drill isn't worth listing.

[canucksartech]

The R849 light is 18 volt and the R859(with the overmold/24 volt version) will take 18 or 24 volt batts. You would think that all lights put out once 24 volt/MaxSelect came on line WOULD have taken both batts automatically. I'm assuming though that there's a warehouse stocked full of the old lights somewhere.....

That's more than likely very much the case.

You're being too kind in explaining my mistake.:o

Yeah, I kinda(really) got things mixed up....

My mistake, sorry.:(

Don't worry. We're not all such the @$$&$ to each other that Wartex makes us out to be.

Besides...we can't all be perfect. There's only one of me, and there can be only one. :winknudge: :cool: :smilewinkgrin: :rolleyes:

[canucksartech]

I agree about the AutoShift Drill having too firm a trigger. It is also akwardly placed [too big a grip]. I opened a business account [$100 off first purchase and had a $50 off coupon] so I got this kit for the radio. batteries and charger. After I build my deck I will sell the impact as I have the X3. From the look of ebay prices, the drill isn't worth listing.

I looked at doing the same. I really just wanted the radio, so I'll either buy one separately through eBay, or wait until they come out as a solo MaxSelect item.

Yeah, the drill I wasn't a fan of. It's been looked at in other threads, but I didn't feel it was that great. IMO, it doesn't beat out the 18v compact lithium ion drill. Me personally, I like having control of whether my drill is in 1st or 2nd gear. Yes, you can disengage the AutoShift feature, but then it stays solely in 2nd/hi gear - that's no good for me, as I have my drill in 1st gear for 80% of my usage. It's too much of a pain, and I'm sure a longevity/wear & tear issue, to have it consistently be in 2nd gear, then when I use it, it practically instantly downshifts into 1st, and then back up into 2nd when I'm done - but wait, no, I'm not done, and I repeat the cycle again. Too much shifting for no reason, IMO.

And, I more than work my drills hard when I use them. But never before have I used a drill where I got a finger cramp so bad within an hour of usage of this drill. There is way too much resistance there, and it makes it a workout to constantly squeeze the trigger. From an ergonomics perspective, a drill is already hard on your wrist from the torque and/or vibrations. I shouldn't have the additional wrist tendon stress from needing to squeeze my index finger so hard to pull the trigger.

[sienna owner]

I'll post my query here too since it relates to the LiOn 18v vs 24v kits

So I received the 24v LiON 3-pc as a xmas gift..haven't yet used it as I like to research stuff..hence finding this forum...

kind of on the same topis as OP, but if you had to choose, which would it be & why??

3-pc 24v LiOn R931 set vs. new X3 5-pc 18v LiOn set?
price for 24v was $199.20 from HD's clearance + 20% discount, but as per a lot of post and specs, the X3 may be a better/allround buy?

I'm not looking at price as a factor..more about the quality of the tool.
and before DRC chimes in about the warranty/reliability of the Rigids...i've already made up my mind to buy the Rigid brand for my next set.
(I currently have a 4-pc 19.2v Crasftman that I feel will be done soon, hence the small upgrade)

tia:confused:

[reConx]

Granted, but my personal experience with this tool is that I just don't believe it to be so. I've used with varying versions of the 18 volt batteries, in various states of charge, and even compared to a nearly dead 24 volt, there's a huge difference. Just not something that feels like the voltage has been stepped down. Hard to explain, but it just has a better "ooomph" output. :rolleyes:

The R883 MaxSelect Ridgid Jigsaw is currently $119>$89. Has anyone used this jigsaw with 18V Lithium batteries? Information from this thread have stated reduced performance with the MaxSelect circular saw+18V batteries. I do not own any 24V batteries. Any opinions on the jigsaw?

[roadrashray]

The R883 MaxSelect Ridgid Jigsaw is currently $119>$89. Has anyone used this jigsaw with 18V Lithium batteries? Information from this thread have stated reduced performance with the MaxSelect circular saw+18V batteries. I do not own any 24V batteries. Any opinions on the jigsaw?

We have a couple of these jig saws and have used them extensively mostly with 24V batts, however we have some experiance using them with 18V LI batts. Jig saws are not very power intensive and this one seems to perform very well using 18V LI batts.........Ray

[sienna owner]

I'll post my query here too since it relates to the LiOn 18v vs 24v kits

So I received the 24v LiON 3-pc as a xmas gift..haven't yet used it as I like to research stuff..hence finding this forum...

kind of on the same topis as OP, but if you had to choose, which would it be & why??

3-pc 24v LiOn R931 set vs. new X3 5-pc 18v LiOn set?
price for 24v was $199.20 from HD's clearance + 20% discount, but as per a lot of post and specs, the X3 may be a better/allround buy?

I'm not looking at price as a factor..more about the quality of the tool.
and before DRC chimes in about the warranty/reliability of the Rigids...i've already made up my mind to buy the Rigid brand for my next set.
(I currently have a 4-pc 19.2v Crasftman that I feel will be done soon, hence the small upgrade)

tia:confused:


have confirm from Ridgid CS that the 24v kit & MaxSelects are discontinued and no product line is in the works to replace them.
(probably cause the X3 outperforms it)

[canucksartech]

We have a couple of these jig saws and have used them extensively mostly with 24V batts, however we have some experiance using them with 18V LI batts. Jig saws are not very power intensive and this one seems to perform very well using 18V LI batts.........Ray

I second that. While, yes, they (MaxSelect tools) work and perform better with 24 volt batteries, the jigsaw does quite well with the 18 volt lithiums also. You do get slightly reduced SPMs/RPMs, but it still performs quite well. I personally mainly use the 18v lithiums with this tool exclusively, due to there not being too bad of a power difference, and save my 24 volt batteries for using with the 24 volt hammerdrill, MaxSelect circ saw, and MaxSelect recip saw (all of those are power intensive hogs).

[reConx]

Thanks for the update on the MaxSelect jigsaw. Cordless jigsaw means no more near-misses on the cord and I might even cut straighter:D.

[canucksartech]

Cordless jigsaw means no more near-misses on the cord and I might even cut straighter:D.

Therein lies the greatest benefit with this tool.

[Tennesseepowerstroke]

After using the and testing the batteries in the vacuum more, I have discovered there is a different pitch with the 24V vs the 18V batteries. The motor is turning faster with the 24V batteries. I have come to the conclusion I have a bad 24V [or weaker] 24V battery as it is now only lasting 13 minutes in the vacuum and I have 3 18V 3.0AH lithiums consistantly running for 20 to 21 minutes in the vacuum. I have 1 18V 3.0AH lithium that dies after 16 minutes consistantly. I thought the 24V batteries were designed to cut off when the voltage gets low but this on just limps along and skips a beat then runs some more. I would imagine this is slowly destroying the battery. The 18V 1.5AH batteries consistantly last 9 minutes in the vac. All of these were tested with a hose attached but just laying on the floor.

[DRC-Wartex]

After using the and testing the batteries in the vacuum more, I have discovered there is a different pitch with the 24V vs the 18V batteries. The motor is turning faster with the 24V batteries. I have come to the conclusion I have a bad 24V [or weaker] 24V battery as it is now only lasting 13 minutes in the vacuum and I have 3 18V 3.0AH lithiums consistantly running for 20 to 21 minutes in the vacuum. I have 1 18V 3.0AH lithium that dies after 16 minutes consistantly. I thought the 24V batteries were designed to cut off when the voltage gets low but this on just limps along and skips a beat then runs some more. I would imagine this is slowly destroying the battery. The 18V 1.5AH batteries consistantly last 9 minutes in the vac. All of these were tested with a hose attached but just laying on the floor.


Leave the weak battery on the charger for a few days. It looks like you have a bad cell and a long trickle charge *might* fix it. Battery shuts down when at least one cell reaches the critical voltage, so you don't get a chance to drain the rest of the cells, that's why you get low runtime.

If you are still under warranty, replace them ASAP.

[canucksartech]

Tennessee, how did you make out with this?

[Tennesseepowerstroke]

Tennessee, how did you make out with this?

I let the 24V battery charge for 54 hours continously. It only ran the vac for 13 minutes before shutting down.

[canucksartech]

Sounds like it's time for a 90-day satisfaction exchange if available (I can't remember when you said you had bought it), or a trip to a service center for warranty work. It could almost be a bad circuit in the battery, which doesn't allow it to either charge past a certain level, or discharge past a certain level - the regulating circuit could be faultly.

[Tennesseepowerstroke]

Sounds like it's time for a 90-day satisfaction exchange if available (I can't remember when you said you had bought it), or a trip to a service center for warranty work. It could almost be a bad circuit in the battery, which doesn't allow it to either charge past a certain level, or discharge past a certain level - the regulating circuit could be faultly.

I made the swap last night was looking forward to a longer lasting batteries. One of the 24V batteries lasted 12 minutes and the other lasted 13 minutes in the cordless vac. My vac must be pulling more current than normal or the Ridgid run times were overly optimistic. Guess I will return the set or just have to live with the shorter run time. The 18V 3AH lithium batteries will still power the vac for 20 minutes before dying.

[DRC-Wartex]

I made the swap last night was looking forward to a longer lasting batteries. One of the 24V batteries lasted 12 minutes and the other lasted 13 minutes in the cordless vac. My vac must be pulling more current than normal or the Ridgid run times were overly optimistic. Guess I will return the set or just have to live with the shorter run time. The 18V 3AH lithium batteries will still power the vac for 20 minutes before dying.

DC-DC converter will use extra current for it's own operation and heat loss, so yes, the current draw will be higher. Because the converter is transformerless solid state, you don't beneft from voltage difference.

I ran a 18v Dewalt fluorescent light from 18v battery as 680 mA, and then tried a 36-to-18 converter to run it off 36v and current at the battery was 1.1 A.

Only tools that have no DC-DC conversion will benefit from 24v batteries. Also, 24v batteries are 2.8 Ah (2.9 Max), and the 18v are 2.9 Ah (3.0 Max)

Given all this data, I think your runtime is accurate. Apparently they didn't take advantage of higher voltage.

Also found this: http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11030

[reConx]

I made the swap last night was looking forward to a longer lasting batteries. One of the 24V batteries lasted 12 minutes and the other lasted 13 minutes in the cordless vac. My vac must be pulling more current than normal or the Ridgid run times were overly optimistic. Guess I will return the set or just have to live with the shorter run time. The 18V 3AH lithium batteries will still power the vac for 20 minutes before dying.

Just a thought: the 24V provided a shorter run time for you but it should have provided increased performance (suction) based on other MaxSelect tools, i.e.: MaxSelect planer runs at higher rpm with 24V, MaxSelect impact runs different rpm with 24V etc.

[DRC-Wartex]

Just a thought: the 24V provided a shorter run time for you but it should have provided increased performance (suction) based on other MaxSelect tools, i.e.: MaxSelect planer runs at higher rpm with 24V, MaxSelect impact runs different rpm with 24V etc.

No it wouldn't. Runtime is proportional to energy, and torque is proportional to voltage. If the vac has a DC-DC converter, voltage will be dropped to 18 - same performance. Capacity is lower in 24v batteries and current consumption is higher due to DC-DC conversion, thus lower runtime and same suction.

Only tools that don't use DC-DC converter will benefit from 24v tools, like drills or impacts. According to numerous posts, it looks like the vacuum is an exception.

[Tennesseepowerstroke]

No it wouldn't. Runtime is proportional to energy, and torque is proportional to voltage. If the vac has a DC-DC converter, voltage will be dropped to 18 - same performance. Capacity is lower in 24v batteries and current consumption is higher due to DC-DC conversion, thus lower runtime and same suction.

Only tools that don't use DC-DC converter will benefit from 24v tools, like drills or impacts. According to numerous posts, it looks like the vacuum is an exception.

I think the 24V battery is providing more suction. The sound pitch is different than the 18V 3.0AH battery. It is disappointing that the Ridgid specs say the 24V battery should provide 16 minutes of run time when in fact I have tried a total of 4 batteries and have never got more than about 12 to 12 1/2 minutes with each of the batteries. Seems like overly optimistic advertising to me.

[pesciwasp]

Impact looks to be the same spec wise (x2 was better than the max select to begin with) as well as the drill.





How was the x2/x3 impact better than the max select?
x2- 2400 rpm max select- 2100 rpm
1450 torque 1490 torque
3100 ipm 3300 ipm

Unless you meant the 18 volt specs.

[canucksartech]

No, the vacuum is not an exception. We've done a bunch of no-load tests on it, and there is a noticeable difference and benefit from the 24 volt XLi's in this tool, similar to the saws and impacts. As I mentioned before, Tennessee, I believe you have faulty 24 volt batts, as you are getting in the neighbourhood of what would be correct for the 18 volts, but no where near what you should get with the 24 volts.

Return/swap out your 24 volt batteries, and/or get them warranty serviced, whichever is most applicable to you.

[Ru&Lins_05]

Impact looks to be the same spec wise (x2 was better than the max select to begin with) as well as the drill.





How was the x2/x3 impact better than the max select?
x2- 2400 rpm max select- 2100 rpm
1450 torque 1490 torque
3100 ipm 3300 ipm

Unless you meant the 18 volt specs.

I was mainly referring to the rpm's. Everyone's complaint about the maxselect impact was the speed at which it drove fastners. I understand that an impact doesn't rely on rpm only but in most applications it will play a big role.

[pesciwasp]

I was mainly referring to the rpm's. Everyone's complaint about the maxselect impact was the speed at which it drove fastners. I understand that an impact doesn't rely on rpm only but in most applications it will play a big role.
So which of the three specs, ipm, rpm, or torque has the most impact ( pardon the pun! ) on driving a screw in faster? Rpm is the only number higher of the three by 300 per min.

[Spinalzo]

So which of the three specs, ipm, rpm, or torque has the most impact ( pardon the pun! ) on driving a screw in faster? Rpm is the only number higher of the three by 300 per min.

Pesiwasp,

I kinda look at the impact like I do the recip saw. The new X3 recip saw has 3,000+ strokes per minute, but probably (don't know for sure) on a stroke length of 7/8", whereas the MaxSelect is 2,500 strokes per minute with a 1 3/16" stroke length. It's easy to see the difference between the two approaches. I can't do that with the impacts because I know the number of impacts, but I don't know if they "hit" with the same force or not. What's your take?

[canucksartech]

So which of the three specs, ipm, rpm, or torque has the most impact ( pardon the pun! ) on driving a screw in faster? Rpm is the only number higher of the three by 300 per min.

Basically, what you're looking for is the combination of these numbers.

Torque is great - it's what let's me know the "max" amount of force that I can put on a particular fastener (ie - if I can use 3" lag bolts that are either 3/8" in diameter, or if I need to step down to 1/4", or if I can step up to 1/2"). There's no clear cut mathematical equation that I can give you here for this - it's just a "gut feeling" type of thing, where I know the minimum torque that I want for what I'm using my impact for.

For the RPM's and the impacts-per-minutes, it's the combination of both. For this situation, the X3 has 2400 rpm and 3100 ipm; the MaxSelect has 2100 rpm and 3300 ipm. Basically, ipm are nice, but it's the rpm's that do the most of the work, at least until you're nearing the end of seating your fastener/screw. If one will work 12.5% faster (as in the case of the X3 over the MaxSelect), then when I'm able to move the fastener/screw and get 70-90% of the rotation work done faster, I end up being ahead, even though it may take a little bit longer for it to do the really hard work right at the end when there is the most resistance.

Basically, as long as your torque resistance isn't overpowering the maximum that your impact driver can put out (which depends on your fastener size/length, and material being fastened into), then it's nicer to have a faster gun. The X3 has 1.29 impacts per rotation, while the MaxSelect has 1.57. If the resistance isn't overpowering your gun, then the extra impacts per rotation isn't as much of an advantage, compared to having the extra RPMs to get the job done faster. So, don't overload the tool, and the RPMs are nicer. If you are doing maximum work all the time (ie - big 1/2" lag bolts, and/or 3 inch screws all the time), then the additional impacts just let your driver get it done with less fatigue and wear-and-tear on the tool, and thus less drain on the battery.

Hope this helps - hope my layman's explaination didn't kerfluffle this whole example up.

And, that all being said, I still chose the MaxSelect impact over the 18 volt impact, the X2 impact, or the X3. I just thought the MaxSelect looked purdier - it matched better with all my other MaxSelect tools. :o :killingme:

[pesciwasp]

Basically, what you're looking for is the combination of these numbers.

Torque is great - it's what let's me know the "max" amount of force that I can put on a particular fastener (ie - if I can use 3" lag bolts that are either 3/8" in diameter, or if I need to step down to 1/4", or if I can step up to 1/2"). There's no clear cut mathematical equation that I can give you here for this - it's just a "gut feeling" type of thing, where I know the minimum torque that I want for what I'm using my impact for.

For the RPM's and the impacts-per-minutes, it's the combination of both. For this situation, the X3 has 2400 rpm and 3100 ipm; the MaxSelect has 2100 rpm and 3300 ipm. Basically, ipm are nice, but it's the rpm's that do the most of the work, at least until you're nearing the end of seating your fastener/screw. If one will work 12.5% faster (as in the case of the X3 over the MaxSelect), then when I'm able to move the fastener/screw and get 70-90% of the rotation work done faster, I end up being ahead, even though it may take a little bit longer for it to do the really hard work right at the end when there is the most resistance.

Basically, as long as your torque resistance isn't overpowering the maximum that your impact driver can put out (which depends on your fastener size/length, and material being fastened into), then it's nicer to have a faster gun. The X3 has 1.29 impacts per rotation, while the MaxSelect has 1.57. If the resistance isn't overpowering your gun, then the extra impacts per rotation isn't as much of an advantage, compared to having the extra RPMs to get the job done faster. So, don't overload the tool, and the RPMs are nicer. If you are doing maximum work all the time (ie - big 1/2" lag bolts, and/or 3 inch screws all the time), then the additional impacts just let your driver get it done with less fatigue and wear-and-tear on the tool, and thus less drain on the battery.

Hope this helps - hope my layman's explaination didn't kerfluffle this whole example up.

And, that all being said, I still chose the MaxSelect impact over the 18 volt impact, the X2 impact, or the X3. I just thought the MaxSelect looked purdier - it matched better with all my other MaxSelect tools. :o :killingme:
I picked max impact as well, its the only one that sells solo!!!! Makes no sense not to sell most tools solo as well as in combos. There will be a massive landfill with auto shift drivers and flashlights, very soon!!

[Calder]

I don't think 'impacts per rotation' have anything to do with the performance of the tool.

The faster the speed of the tool, the faster it will seat a bolt/screw assuming there is little resistance. It will depend on how powerful the motor is, as to when the tool will stop rotating; this is some information that they don't give you. It is not until the tool stops rotating that the impacts start to act on the bolt/screw. Thus the rpms and ipm are completely separate items.

I believe measured torque for an impact driver is measured differently than that of a conventional drill, and is not a direct reading off the tool. I think the torque is measured as the effective torque the tool can apply to a 'standard' fastener (the standard being different for every manufacturer to make it really difficult to make a real comparision). In very basic terms, if you use the tool to seat a bolt, then use a torque wrench to remove it, the torque should be similar to the rated torque of the tool. For tools with the same torque rating, the higher the ipm rating of the tool, the faster the tool will seat the fastener. If both torque and ipm are higher, the tool should be 'better'. If only one is higher, then it is not as simple to compare the tools (one could put more torque on the fastener, but take longer to do it).