Dust Collection for Weekend Warrior?

[Curt]

How important is DC for the average Joe?

Despite urgent deadlines, I stil get a max of about 4 half days to make chips and dust. Is DC of real health importance - as opposed to visual?

TIA, Curt

[K.M. Delano]

Curt

The Jury returned a verdict on this subject. Dust from homeshops can be a hazard to your health. How much of an impact it will have on you depends on many factors, but it boils down to what you want to do. I worked for years without any type of DC. I now wish I had some sort of dust removal system long ago. For a DC that will vent into your shop, you should go with a canister filter. The overhead Air Filtration Units go hand in hand with the DC.

[Creature]

actually it's kinda nice. I'm just plugging in my wetvac to the back of the tools I'm using. the router is causing about 10% of the dust it did before. It's just kinda nice to work with.

[Mike3206]

Curt, just blow your nose once after cutting MDF or ply and you'll see that dust collection is a good thing. I don't have a collector yet, but whenever I need to cut stuff like MDF or other woods that have fine dust, I make sure I wear a mask with filters. Hopefully this summer I'll be able to pick up a new collector.

Was going to get an HF for $149, but am thinking that the Delta may be a better unit and it supposedly comes with 5 micron bags now.

[ba-doyn]

I have to chime in about a dust collector for us weekend warriors.

I currently use a shopvac for my dust collection in my basement shop. It satisfies my dust collection needs about 70% of the time, so I'm saving my pennies for a cyclone system and a few runs of metal ductwork for a better dust collection system. I would rather spend a few extra dollars for my health and keeping as much dust out of my house as possible. Plus, I'd love a floor sweep attachment.

Actually, I might sprinkle a little dust upstairs so my wife will be more persuaded to get the dust collector sooner. smile.gif

[K.M. Delano]

Curt

For a real good place for DC information go to these sites........

http://cnets.net/~eclectic/woodworking/cyclone/blower.html


http://talk.woodmagazine.com/default.sph/woodTalk.class?FNC=goToSubjectList__AWOODcategory_ html___33

[ 04-14-2003, 09:16 PM: Message edited by: Keystone ]

[Backyard Woodworker]

Just finished plumbing in my HF Dust Collector today. The thing works great. It keeps up with my router table,shaper and joiner. These are what makes the most dust in my shop. It is also nice not to have a big pile of sawdust under the table saw after a day of cutting!
I'm wondering if I can run a line to a overhead collector, kind of like a oven hood, to help with dust from sanding.
Rob Johnson
Orange,Ca.

[spacebluesonoma]

i have a friend of mine that came up with an ingenious idea for the weekend warrior. i can not fully understand why it works so well but i have seen it work and it works great. he got one of thosebarrels (a bit smaller than a 55 gallon drum) made of cardboard. seals well. put a fitting on it and hooked it up to his shop vac. ran some plastic tube up and branched off to his tools. granted he does not do a lot of volume work, but i was surprised that it worked better than using just the shop vac. perhaps the "bigger vaccum" created by the sealed barrell was the key?

[Curt]

I have a TS3612, a Delta RAS, and benchtop jointer. Only the jointer has a chip pickup tube (I connect that to my shop vac.) The rest is various hand tools; router, biscuit joiner, drills, sanders, etc.

I'm pretty much at a loss when contemplating DC for this lot. Any thoughts - or just wear a mask?

TIA, Curt

[Curly Qsawn]

As a real novice I can only reiterate what I’ve learned through reading. Wood dust is a health problem. It really isn’t the dust that you can see in the air or you blow out your nose that is the health problem. It is the minute particles that get past your natural defenses and wind up in your lungs. Each individual will react differently so there is no “golden tool” or process that is the right answer. Each shop and worker will have somewhat different requirements based on exposure, acceptable risk and tolerance of the individual worker. The basics I’ve learned so far are that you have to capture the dust at its source, especially in a closed system shop, then you need to be able to separate the big stuff from the little stuff and then you need to filter out the sub-micron size particles before returning the air to the workspace. If you worked outside just a fan to move air locally would probably suffice without having to collect, but very few hobby woodworkers fall in that category. Whatever tool you use to cut or shape wood needs dust collection. Some tools produce more and different kinds of chips and dust and thus have different requirements for air movement to handle that particular type of spoil. According to the “experts,” in order to capture the fine dust that is the real dust hazard your collection system needs to flow about 800 CFM at a velocity of about 4000 FPS. Generally you need to feed the filtered air back into your shop. Otherwise, you run into the problems of conditioned air (heat/cool) loss or pulling air from any flame producing appliances (water heater, furnace, etc.) that may be in close proximity to your shop. The general answer to the above DC requirements is a 2 or 3 hp cyclone with pleated filters pulling air through a six inch duct for most major machines and a good shop vac hooked into your smaller tools such as sanders or biscuit joiners. Generally, if you’ve gone to this much effort you’ll add a separate air filtering system too. Now to me, that is a heck of a hefty investment in time, money, and space to be able to enjoy woodworking as a hobby. Are there other solutions? Absolutely, but most are going to be less efficient in terms of collection of the most hazardous dust. Some say beginners should just jump right to the high end system because that is where you will wind up later. I’m more partial to just starting out with a 11/2 or 2 hp standard collector with the right bags, linking straight to a machine as I use it (wonder how long before I get tired of changing hoses) and working up to a central collection system as I need to. I’ve held off getting a 3612 because a contractor style saw just won’t collect dust as well as a cabinet saw. Maybe that will be the next major revision so I can quit working on saw horses outside and set up a real shop.

[K.M. Delano]

CQ,

DANG! Great post to this subject. I'm glad I looked prior to posting, as I was mid way into writting up something simular to you.

Again, good job!

[Curly Qsawn]

Keystone,
Thanks. I wish you had posted also. Comfort in numbers. I had two other points. First, I don't understand that given some of the specs for dust collection why tool manufacturers haven't stepped up to the plate. Why are they continuing to put 4" ports in their machine when they should be 6"? Also it would really be nice if a manufacturer did the right thing and design dust collection into the tool to begin with rather than just modify some existing design. It would certainly be interesting to see what tools would look like if dust collection was job 1. Second is I don't understand why you can't increase the velocity of the air to achieve the same CFM rating. Everything is based on a 3850 rpm motor. What happens if you put a 10,000rpm motor in and drive the air through a 4"port? More of a giant vacuum than a dust collector. I've got a lot more study to do in an area I know nothing about. Great fun being semi-retired.

[Dave Arbuckle]

It would certainly be interesting to see what tools would look like if dust collection was job 1.

Look at European tools, then. Dust collection isn't "Job 1", but it is a much higher priority than here, due at least partly to their smaller workspaces.

Second is I don't understand why you can't increase the velocity of the air to achieve the same CFM rating. Everything is based on a 3850 rpm motor. What happens if you put a 10,000rpm motor in and drive the air through a 4"port?

a) I think you may be talking about a dust collection system that sounds somewhat like an air raid siren.

b) Where do you plan to get said 10K rpm motor?

If you want a really top-end dust collection system, they are available. Contact Oneida at the very low end. For a better system, try someone like Torit. Want top of the line? Give Scientific Dust Collectors a call. Expect to pay very big bucks for these good systems, though. ;)

Dave

[K.M. Delano]

CQ

Some good points you bring up. I think that the real issue here is $$$$$. How many people are going to shell out say $100 to $150 more for (insert tool) when they can get a simular item for less? If OSHA didn't set min safty laws for companies, how many would worry about a good DC in a wood shop? In the past year I have learnt more about removing dust from a shop than I thought was possible. I had no idea that there was so much research by PRIVATE citizens out there! Do the manyfactures need to step up to the plate? Or do we, the users, need to keep trying to inform other users what the options are? Both is the answer I beleive. There is no reason that equiptment should not have 6" ports on them. My JET DC-1100C came with two 4" ports. Why? Most likly because that is where the industry is at right now. Getting good DC on my contractors saw is a big problem. They just are not made with DC in mind. I've managed, like many others, to decrease teh amount of dust, but I will never get anything better than what I have now with it.

There are good systems out on the market. Dave pointed out one of the best. Homeshop owners like myself can not use a cyclone system as I do not have the height that is needed. If I ever do get to build a stand alone shop, you can be sure it will have plenty of overhead room for Dust Removal! Until then I will keep on reading and looking for better ways to remove that stuff from the air.

I hope one person reads this thread, goes to those links I provided, and makes up thier mind to do something about the dust in thier shop!

Guess I've talked enough...............

[Dave Arbuckle]

JET DC-1100C came with two 4" ports.

Um, Keystone? Got some good news for you. That black dual 4" wye, pulls right off. The underlying flange is 6". smile.gif

Dave

[K.M. Delano]

Got ya Dave. I plan on doing that sometime in the future. Right now I am doing a machine to machine set up with 3' to the seperater and 10' to the machine. When I pipe my shop I will be doing so with 6" and use short 4" flex to the DC ports on the machine. Since my shop space is real tight, everything is mobile. But I will pipe the TS with a gate, and have a seperate hook up for the other tools with a gate. 6" is the way to go though. Iy really increases the air flow.

[UO_Woody]

Dave,

Glad you mentioned the Torit name. School I've been working on the last couple weeks has a Torit system outside. Since the school was closed for spring vacation, no one but us construction workers there. Was Very temping to try and stuff it in the back of my truck!

Seriously though, I've been looking into the Torit system. I'm trying to get a handle on the the cost of the 20-3 model.

[Dave Arbuckle]

Nice machine, Woody. Delta Air Systems sells 20-3 for $2,833.68 (don't ask me where that funky number comes from, I would at least ask them to knock off the 68 cents ;) ). I'm not up on Torit pricing to know if that's a great price or not... They are at http://www.hvacdistribution.com/ , do a search on the name Torit.

You know that's a 3-phase machine, right?

Dave

[UO_Woody]

CRAP :eek: no Dave, I didn't know that. The site I looked at didn't specify that the 3 ment 3-phase. I assumed it ment 3hp! :confused: I guess I should have known since they are an industrial machine. Maybe than make one with a single phase motor for me.

I figured it would run between 2500 and 3000. I'll have to make some calls Donaldson Torit Co. and see about that, and where the nearest dealer is.

Thanks for the info Dave, as always, you have the answers ;)

[Dave Arbuckle]

The -3 does stand for 3 horsepower, there's also a -5. I think all Torit's machines are 3-phase, it's the industry standard.

Two suggestions. One is to see if they use a NEMA frame on the motors that is available in single phase. Then you'd just need a motor swap, and you may be able to get the machine without a motor. The single phase motor will be more expensive.

The other idea would be to get a phase converter of one sort of another. I've been told there are some that are getting pretty inexpensive, down in the two or three hundred range.

Dave

[BillAMJ]

Woody - Another thought would be if you have free space in your electrical panel you could get an electrician to add a three phase outlet for you. The thing is that you need room for two breakers in the panel, not just a single.

[Dave Arbuckle]

Bill, that's not how it works. Three phase power has to be supplied to the service entrance. In the case of residences, it essentially never is.

A friend lives on a small horse ranch. There is a three-phase feed running right down his road. The power company would be happy to connect the three-phase to his shop, for a mere $14,000 one-time charge.

I think you may be thinking of a double-pole breaker, which is used residentially for 220v single-phase.

Dave

[Mike3206]

Dave, does that $14,000 include the step down transformer that he'll most likely need? Man, those things are EXPENSIVE!

[BillAMJ]

Dave, OOPS! :eek: Must have been tripping an internal breaker on that one. :confused:

[Dave Arbuckle]

Mike, if I recall correctly that was turn-key, all he would have needed was the panel. I know another gentleman who got a bid of about $27,000 for the same type of project, as he was a bit farther from a suitable source.

All in all, phase converters are a fair bit cheaper. ;)

Dave

[Packer in GA]

Curt,

I agree with the posters that use a shop vac for a lot of their dust collection.
Personally I put my planer (which makes the most mess) on a mobile platform so I can move it to a covered patio and plane there. This has been the single best thing I have done for dust collection.
The shop vac can handle the tablesaw and other tools rather well.

Regards,
Bruce

[Backyard Woodworker]

After a week of use, I'm unhappy with the dust collection from my table saw and miter saw.
Everything else in my shop gets great collection from the HF 2HP collector.
The table saw has a good amount of dust kicked up by the blade that the collector does not get. I would need a hood of some sort covering the blade much like a blade guard to collect it all. All of the saw dust under the table is collected.
The Miter saw is a complete waste of time. It's a HF, and there dust port does not collect anything. It has served it's purpose, but it's time to move on. I'm getting a new saw this weekend.
Maybe the Ridgid MS1290 if it's in stock at the local HD.
Rob Johnson
Orange Ca.

[Andy B.]

Originally posted by Curt:
How important is DC for the average Joe?

Despite urgent deadlines, I stil get a max of about 4 half days to make chips and dust. Is DC of real health importance - as opposed to visual?

TIA, Curt Curt I like to think its very important.

[Charlie P]

Originally posted by Backyard Woodworker

The table saw has a good amount of dust kicked up by the blade that the collector does not get. ... All of the saw dust under the table is collected.
Perhaps you have a blade/fence alignment problem. I didn't think I did, but when I did a careful alignment on my saw, 90% (not 100%) of the sawdust on the top was gone. It appears that most of the top-dust comes from the back of the blade cutting or at least slightly touching the kerf (bad).

[Mike3206]

The Miter saw is a complete waste of time. It's a HF, and there dust port does not collect anything. Most miter saw ports don't catch nearly everything. I have a Ridgid 12" CMS hooked up to a shop vac. Same thing happens. The vac get's most, but there is always "left overs". My suggestion would be to form a hood behind the unit (there are many available for miter saws) that hooks to the 4" dust port. You'll see the dust greatly reduced as well as an airflow improvement to the collector.

[Backyard Woodworker]

The dust from the Table Saw is kicked up by the back of the blade. It wouldn't suprise me if something was out of alignment. I started checking the distance from blade to fence and was finding that my fence is not very accurate. Guess a tune-up would help matters.
I haven't seen a hood for a Miter Saw, but sure will look for one. Right now I would guess the DC is catching about 50% from this saw.
Thanks,
Rob Johnson
Orange,Ca.

[Dave Arbuckle]

I agree entirely with Charlie on the tablesaw rooster-tailing dust. In the perfect setup, the rising teeth would not even touch, they would just ride in the kerf. The world isn't perfect, but it can be pretty close. I have a blade guard with dust collection built in, and don't even hook it to the DC.

Dave

[rmacmec]

Admittedly, I did not read all the posts before I replied. My opinion: do everything possible to not breathe dust, even if you don't do woodworking often at all!!!

My simple solution when I started wood working was to get a mask. The cheap white ones didn't help me at all since they don't seal well on the sides. I purchased a $30 mask with the rubber face and 2 canisters on either side at Home Depot. It is a pain to work with at first but well worth wearing it because there is nothing more important than your health. Since then, I have upgraded and now have DC and air filtration. I still sometimes wear the mask for certain jobs!

[Backyard Woodworker]

Desided to hook up DC to my Dewalt random orbit sander this weekend. What a difference!
Where I'm usually covered with a fine dust after using it even with the dust bag attached, this time there was nothing.
I used the clear 2 1/2" hose from Rockler that has some give to it so the sander would not be impossible to use. Worked Great!!!
Hooked it up to my Bisquit planer also. Collected everything.
Oh yea...found one of the problems with my DC from the table saw and miter saw. Seems a shop rag got sucked into the inlet!!!! Still sucked enough for the smaller tools.
Rob Johnson
Orange Ca.

[ 04-21-2003, 10:58 PM: Message edited by: Backyard Woodworker ]

[Backyard Woodworker]

Made a pig tail to connect my portable belt sander to my DC. Works great.
After using this thing for a few weeks, I wouldn't have it any other way. Less shop clean-up and my nose isn't full of saw dust after a days work-play.
Looking into a two stage attachment now to catch the big chunks my floor sweep takes in.
Rob Johnson
Orange,Ca.

[ 04-27-2003, 09:54 PM: Message edited by: Backyard Woodworker ]

[Curt]

Seems that the consensus is:

DC is very important.

DC for weekend warrior is probably prohibitively expensive as well as difficult to achieve.

Just bought a PC sander which has a dust port. So does the PC Bisquit cutter. I may try a hose hookup to my 13 year old Shop vac (makes more noise than the tools.) Regardless, if it isn't raining then I do almost all my work outside the garage.

I very much appreciate all the advice and commentary, as well as the links to the subject.

Thank you all very much,

Curt