How best to edge glue 3/4" oak boards

[Rstjean]

I'm working on one of my bigger projects, a dining room table for my daughter out of 3/4"oak. To make the table top I have to edge glue eight 3/4"X 7" boards together and I'm thinking that glue alone my not be strong enough. Also I'm concerned that I may not be able to align them just perfectly when gluing them so as to have a reasonably level joints. Would incorporating the use of dowels be something I should be considering, I was also thinking about biscuits although I've never used them. If anyone has any suggestions on how I should proceed I'd love to hear from you. Thanks
By the way the oak boards are already S4S so pretty well finished smooth.

[Tom W]

I am inferring that you mean 7' not 7" long. That is a lot of boards to be fiddling with at one time. I would probably do it in at least two and maybe three glue-ups then glue everything together. If I did it in three sections I would glue two together and then add the third later.

I read, I think in, 'The 250 Best Shop Tricks,' a supplement to 'Woodworkers Journal' of a guy who plowed a 3/4" grove in a couple 2x4s and slid them over the ends of his glue-up to align the ends. Pretty good idea, might work for you.

I have a biscuit cutter so I would probably use it to help with alignment but it isn't necessary, unless of course you are in the market for another tool.

By all accounts, everything I have read, indicates that wood glue is stronger than wood, so the addition of biscuits would be primarily for alignment, not strength.

If you can enlist the help of someone to help with the glue-up that would help a lot. Seven feet is a lot of board.

Tom

[Rstjean]

Just to clarify, the oak boards are 3/4" thick by 7" wide by 5 feet long. I would like to keep the joins as smooth as possible when aligning and gluing them.

[darius]

Edge gluing will be plenty strong if you use one of the leading brands of wood glue. Titebond III is great and the strength is in the area of a couple thousand pounds. In fact the glue line, if properly applied, will end up being stronger than wood itself. I still have a small maple table I made over 15 years ago. I made it of two 8" boards glued together. Nothing fancy. Actually pretty lame and I did the edge were "jointing" on a cheap table saw using a cheap HSS blade, and I made burn marks too. The point is that the table top is still very strong.

You are correct that for aligning the boards you could use biscuits or dowels, with the latter providing a stronger joint. My personal preference is for dowels with the use of one of a dowel jig. I bought a self centering one ($40) but I'm now seriously considering Joint-Genie (http://www.joint-genie.com/home-us.html) as it appears to offer more flexibility.

[Bob D.]

How do you plan to treat the ends of the table top? There will be a lot of end grain there to deal with. Will you breadboard the ends or some other treatment? May have to re-think construction and assembly methods.

You could if you don't have a biscuit joiner use dowels or you could spline them, but this would mean you would have to do something with the ends.

If you use dowels be sure to index everything from the same side. Build a simple drilling jig, an L shaped piece with a guide hole spaced the right distance from the edge, to ensure your holes will line up. This will help keep the face of the boards aligned.

[kirkroy]

For alignment consider making some clamping cauls:
http://www.newwoodworker.com/cauls.html

[Spinalzo]

A very effective way to join that many pieces would be to utilize a spline joint. It will give you an incredibly strong joint and last for years to come. I've also used biscuits to join pieces as the biscuits absorb the glue swell, make a strong joint and provide a permanent bonding point. Either way, I would think that you would need something to supplement the 5 foot length. So the choice is a biscuit joiner or router and table.

[Tom W]

I bought a self centering one ($40) but I'm now seriously considering Joint-Genie (http://www.joint-genie.com/home-us.html) as it appears to offer more flexibility.

If I didn't have a Dowel Max I also would give consideration to the Joint-Genie. The video makes it look pretty cool.

Tom

[Rstjean]

Thanks all for the suggestions, I will certainly invest in making some cauls as when gluing the boards together the entire table top will be almost 58 inches wide. As for the ends of table where the end grain is I had planned on putting in a breadboard 2-3" wide using a spline along most of the length. Will also look for the Titebond glue as I hadn't thought of the type of glue to use.

[BHD]

I know I am a little late to the party here, but I would suggest briskets, (I have less luck with dowels), I would clamp from the bottom as well as the top, (it keep tension on the glue up even and keeps it from bowing or helps) I would use a jointer to get the edges as straight as possible first, I would find as flat as a surface as possible to work off of,

I would be some what concerned about the possible cross gain end attachment, If any thing build up the edges with a double piece if you want some depth, but by going cross grain on the ends, if the wood shrinks you may end up with a split clear thought the table, Oak changes a lot with humidity,
I made a leaf for a table one time (this was out of construction grade lumber) but since the table was the same out of 2x6's I glued up a 3' x 3' piece for the table, and about two weeks later there was this loud crack sound and the piece had basically reduced it self into three pieces,there were two ribs under the leaf to keep "from splitting it" it end up causing it to split,

if a cross grain piece is used on a large panel it should be designed to float so the other wood can expand and contract, (why it is suggested not to glue the panels into a rail and stile door,

[rofl]

mmmmmmmm......briskets.........

I know I am a little late to the party here, but I would suggest briskets,

[kirkroy]

mmmmmmmm......briskets.........

Hehe, that was my reaction too... ;)

[Rstjean]

Someone will have to enlightnen me as to what are briskets ??

[kirkroy]

Someone will have to enlightnen me as to what are briskets ??

A tough cut of beef that's cooked long and slow so you end up with something really tasty and tender.
http://www.bonappetit.com/images/dishes/dish/dire_brisket_v.jpg

[gusty60]

A tough cut of beef that's cooked long and slow so you end up with something really tasty and tender.
http://www.bonappetit.com/images/dishes/dish/dire_brisket_v.jpg
HAHAHA:rotflmao1:

[BHD]

I guess you were not aware that one needs a good meal before starting out on that kind of job, and I was suggesting that he get the proper nutrition and vitamins and minerals that one needs to be in proper physical condition before attempting such work, and a properly cooked and served Brisket is a excellent start.

but while were on the subject there is not much better than a good slow smoked BBQ brisket,

but honestly I an glad you enjoyed my miss spelling, but I do like Brisket even better than biscuits or even biscuit cutters,
the truth be know I was not watching the spell checker suggestions close enough,

any way what I was suggesting on the wood working side of life, was Biscuits, and I have added pictures if any one still is not clear on what my suggestion was,

[Rstjean]

Now I get it but thanks for the brisket picture, even went to Wikipedia to look up woodworking terms but couldn't find anything on briskets.:scratchhead:

[Andy_M]

Wood glue will be plenty strong for joining the boards together. As mentioned, Titebond III is good, the color when dry is a decent match to red oak, and the "III" is water resistant, which is nice on a table. But any of the Titebonds, or Elmer's Carpenter's Wood Glue (the yellow stuff) will be fine, as would Gorilla Glue - but that stuff can be a mess to use. Couple of things to mention, though:

(1) Make sure your boards are jointed. You don't need a jointer, you can use a good blade on a tablesaw. You just want to make sure that the boards aren't warped and fit together well.

(2) Use LOTS of clamps, but don't over-tighten!!! It's easy to squeeze out too much glue and have a glue-starved joint. Then in a year or two you'll be able to feel the joint with your fingernail right through the finish as it opens slightly... not so good! You just want to the clamps to draw the joint together and give moderate pressure. You don't need to squeeze the heck out of the glue-up.

(3) I would go with biscuits for alignment. Splines are fast, but as mentioned, you then have the end to deal with.

Bad news is no matter what, you will be doing a little scraping or planing (or belt sanding, if you're brave) after all the gluing is said and done.

(4) 7" is a wide board in oak. If you need this for the look you're after, ok... but narrower boards are much less likely to cup on a tabletop in a year or two. I seriously try to avoid boards this wide for oak tabletops, as the cupping can be severe.

(5) If not using quarter-sawn stock, alternate the cupping pattern on the end grain. Again, very important.

(6) If you use a cross grain end cap.... try not to! The cross grain seasonal movement in oak will be a disaster. The main table top will move as much as 1/4 inch, so if you design a glued-on end cap, the end caps the glue WILL fail. If you must use an end cap, you need a floating joint there. There have been a lot of sketches of how to do this in Fine Woodworking or Woodsmith over the years.

I pretty much got away from cross grain end caps for this reason. Even with floating joints, I just dont like the lip that develops. Anymore, I spend a little time and sand the endgrain until it's perfectly clear, finishing up with 400 grit paper. Looks nice when you're done. I use a quarter sheet orbital to speed up the process.... it's a painfully long process to do it by hand.

(7) Make sure you finish both sides of the table when you're done... exactly the same. I like the look of oak, but stability is not it's forte.

Good luck,

Andy

[Faboo]

If your main concern is flush then buy a standard glue joint router bit

http://www.routerbits.com/cgi-routerbits/sr.cgi?1237004609_24059+73

I agree with Andy M stay away from the end cap and I would split the 7" boards and then glue them up. you will end up with a more stable project in the long run. If you buy the router bit try a couple test runs with some scraps. You have to use feather boards to keep the boards tight and down and they actually work real well. It does not eliminate the need for cauls as this is a large glue up and you will need to keep it flat. The router bit meathod helps to line up the boards and increases the glue area.

[lovetheUSA]

58" wide...5' long.....that is a pretty impressive glue up! You will need a boatload of clamps! Unless you are using biscuits or dowels for alignment, it does seem that gluing/clamping one joint at a time will be easier to deal with.

As for strength......watch Antiques Roadshow! Plenty of furniture with glued up boards which are 300 years old and still going strong!

[danparkcityut]

Wood glue will be plenty strong for joining the boards together. As mentioned, Titebond III is good, the color when dry is a decent match to red oak, and the "III" is water resistant, which is nice on a table. But any of the Titebonds, or Elmer's Carpenter's Wood Glue (the yellow stuff) will be fine, as would Gorilla Glue - but that stuff can be a mess to use. Couple of things to mention, though:

(1) Make sure your boards are jointed. You don't need a jointer, you can use a good blade on a tablesaw. You just want to make sure that the boards aren't warped and fit together well.

(2) Use LOTS of clamps, but don't over-tighten!!! It's easy to squeeze out too much glue and have a glue-starved joint. Then in a year or two you'll be able to feel the joint with your fingernail right through the finish as it opens slightly... not so good! You just want to the clamps to draw the joint together and give moderate pressure. You don't need to squeeze the heck out of the glue-up.

(3) I would go with biscuits for alignment. Splines are fast, but as mentioned, you then have the end to deal with.

Bad news is no matter what, you will be doing a little scraping or planing (or belt sanding, if you're brave) after all the gluing is said and done.

(4) 7" is a wide board in oak. If you need this for the look you're after, ok... but narrower boards are much less likely to cup on a tabletop in a year or two. I seriously try to avoid boards this wide for oak tabletops, as the cupping can be severe.

(5) If not using quarter-sawn stock, alternate the cupping pattern on the end grain. Again, very important.

(6) If you use a cross grain end cap.... try not to! The cross grain seasonal movement in oak will be a disaster. The main table top will move as much as 1/4 inch, so if you design a glued-on end cap, the end caps the glue WILL fail. If you must use an end cap, you need a floating joint there. There have been a lot of sketches of how to do this in Fine Woodworking or Woodsmith over the years.

I pretty much got away from cross grain end caps for this reason. Even with floating joints, I just dont like the lip that develops. Anymore, I spend a little time and sand the endgrain until it's perfectly clear, finishing up with 400 grit paper. Looks nice when you're done. I use a quarter sheet orbital to speed up the process.... it's a painfully long process to do it by hand.

(7) Make sure you finish both sides of the table when you're done... exactly the same. I like the look of oak, but stability is not it's forte.

Good luck,

Andy


Wow, I've never learned so much on any given topic reading one single post. It all makes perfect sense to me. My hat's off for Andy this time around, though I must admit there are several "runners up" in this thread too :bravo:

Dan

[Rstjean]

Andy, are you suggesting not to put anything over the end grain of the boards but rather just finish them off as smootly as possible? I originally had planned on splining a 3" breadboard on either end to cover the end grain. I was cocerned that there might be some splitting at the end. I haven't really worked with oak before so I'll trust your suggestions including Faboo's about splitting my 7" boards in half and alternating each before dowelling and gluing them back together.

[Tom5151]

I may have missed this but I didn't recall anyone mentioning that you'll save yourself a whole lot of grief if your boards are properly milled before you start. Lots of great suggestions and tips here for sure, but if you don't mill your stock properly before you start, you're asking for headaches....

[Andy_M]

>> "Wow, I've never learned so much on any given topic reading one single post."

Mighty fine compliment, Dan. Glad you found my suggestions useful, and thanks for the encouragement!

>> "Andy, are you suggesting not to put anything over the end grain of the boards but rather just finish them off as smootly as possible?"

Yes, that's exactly it. The problem is that when the amount of moisture in the air increases, the oak will absorb the water and will expand across the board (width dimension and thickness dimension, although the thickness dimension is much, much less of a problem). Because of the cellular configuration of wood, the length dimension changes so little with humidity changes that it can be safely ignored. So, across your table, you will see a HUGE expansion and contraction with the seasons. If you decide to put an end cap on the table, the cap, with its grain running 90 degrees to the main table, won't track the movement at all.... so unless you design a floating cap (as I mentioned, how to do this has been beaten to death in Fine Woodworking and other such pubications), the main table boards will expand in width and literally destroy the joint to the end cap. Not so good. This is not theoretical... in this case, that's the voice of experience speaking. BTW, that's the reason raised panel doors are built with the panel "floating" in the door frame. If the panel were tightly fitted to the frame and glued in, the door would tear itself apart in the first year.

You get this effect more or less with any wood - although the degree of seasonal expansion/contraction depends on the species. I've found red oak to be nice looking but really bad in terms of stability.

Even if you decide to try a floating joint, I have to say that personally I just don't like end caps. The problem is that, especially on a wide glue-up like your tabletop, you'll make the cap fit beautifully in your shop but three months later it will look like it doesn't fit at all! I mentioned that you might see 1/4 inch of dimensional change with the oak but with a wide tabletop, you could easily see MORE if you live in a place with hot humid summers and relatively cool/cold and low relative humidity in winter.

I know many people don't like the look of end grain, but personally I find it to be quite attractive as long as you sand it until it gets "clear". Try it on one board.... I bet you'll agree that with a little patience you can get a great look!

>> "I originally had planned on splining a 3" breadboard on either end to cover the end grain. I was cocerned that there might be some splitting at the end."

I agree that red oak can be pretty splintery. But I haven't had any problems with the end splitting as long as it's good stock. I never use red oak without cutting at least 6-8 inches off the ends of the board (prone to splitting) and I try very hard to avoid pith lines (dark lines running in the grain direction) because these tend to end up as splits.

You can help your cause by selecting the edge detail appropriately. With red oak, I'll often opt for a blunt edge detail rather than a fine one... in other words, I might finish my tabletop with a big fat bullnose rather than a Roman Ogee. The sharper edge details are splinters just waiting to happen... but a nice blunt bullnose is pretty resistant to any splitting or splintering... and, if it's on the endgrain, it's much easier to sand to "clear".

Hope it helps! Good luck,

Andy

[kirkroy]

How would you go about sanding a profile (say, an ogee) on end grain? I made a dresser over the winter and, now that the weather is nicer, I'd like to go ahead and finish it but I don't know how to get the end grain sanded... It's too late to change to a simpler profile (unless I just replace the top)! ;)Thanks!

[Andy_M]

>> "How would you go about sanding a profile (say, an ogee) on end grain?"

It can be a nightmare, especially in hard to sand woods like oak. If stuck with a profile like an ogee, the best thing I've found is sanding sponges for the curved part and home made sanding blocks (glue paper to thin off-cuts of maple). The blocks work to keep the edges crisp, which is a problem with the sanding sponges.

One time I made a "negative" of the edge detail out of bondo to which I glued sandpaper strips with contact cement. It was ok.... but too much work making the thing and it wasn't very durable. As I said, I tried that "once".

If the profile is big enough, you might want to try a curved scraper. Sometimes a scraper will make fast work of end grain, but for some reason on other pieces it is worthless. I'm a big fan of scraping (love those little curls of wood!) so I at least give a few strokes with a scraper in just about every situation to see if it will help.

I'm sure others have more clever solutions to this question than I.

Good luck!

Andy

[darius]

Here is a link to a very nice table project (http://www.deldavenport.com/ww/table/index.htm). Step by step and a good amount of information. The author also shows how he dealt with attaching the breadboard.

[billie_bob]

Darius,
That is a great link, that is exactly how to install a bread board. I have never had any issues with structural failure using the technique illustrated in that link. I can think of a couple of techniques for installing a bread board on different applications; but for a dinner table that is the way to go.

tgomez

[Rstjean]

Here is a link to a very nice table project (http://www.deldavenport.com/ww/table/index.htm). Step by step and a good amount of information. The author also shows how he dealt with attaching the breadboard.

One beautiful, beautiful table, and from following all of the steps plenty of hours in the making not to mention a lot of nice tools which unfortunately I don't have but I'll have to persevere and see how my table works out.