Hot Water Remedy

[electrokid]

Is there something I can do to get instant hot water in the master bath? It seems like I have to run the water 10 min. before it even starts to warm up? Any suggestions would be appreciated.

[wrench spinner]

have you plumber install a hot water recirculation kid, grundfos is a good one, they come with a built in timer to keep from running when not needed.

[Andy_M]

Another option is to install a mini-tank water heater in the bathroom, under the sink. I had the same problem as you do with my kitchen, which is at the far diagonal corner from the water heater. I installed an Ariston 4 gallon (model 4GLTi) hot water heater under the sink and the problem was solved. The heater runs on 120V, just plug it in. Plumb the regular hot water supply to the inlet of the mini-tank, then plumb the outlet of the mini-tank to the faucet. By the time the little tank is running out of hot water, hot water from the main heater shows up. I'm real happy with the way it works. They make those heaters in 2.5, 4, and 8 gallon. Get the "Ti" model with the titanium heater element. My four gallon was about $165. It is very well insulated and doesn't seem to use much electricity at all. There are probably other manufacturers that make similar tanks out there, also, but read the fine print. I came across others that were not recommended for "in-line" installation.

Good luck,

Andy

[BrandonG]

Is there something I can do to get instant hot water in the master bath? It seems like I have to run the water 10 min. before it even starts to warm up? Any suggestions would be appreciated.




Re circ line.....:D

[Bob D.]

...hot water recirculation kid...


I'll bet that 'kid' gets tired of running back and forth with buckets of hot water. :D

[gusty60]

I'll bet that 'kid' gets tired of running back and forth with buckets of hot water. :D
Beat me to it Bob D!:D

[MrsSeatDown]

I'll bet that 'kid' gets tired of running back and forth with buckets of hot water. :D

I was going to say something, but the last time I picked on his spelling Rick told me I was being mean to poor Wrench:(

[wrench spinner]

I was too excited that I got to answer first I didnt even pay attention to my spelling!:rolleyes:

go ahead Joey you can pick on me I don't mind, I have broad shoulders!

[EasyEman]

A point of use heater is complicated to install for a shower. You re better off with a recirculating pump. You can get a kit for about $200 dollars. They re easy to install if you have an outlet by your water heater.

[wookie]

Grundfos Comfort System

wookie

Have a plumber install the unit and he'll check out your system, expansion tank etc.

[Andy_M]

>> "A point of use heater is complicated to install for a shower. You re better off with a recirculating pump. You can get a kit for about $200 dollars. They re easy to install if you have an outlet by your water heater."

I agree that a mini-tank can be a little harder to plumb to a shower, depending on the configuration. I'm adding one to my back bathroom, and it does require a little work but not bad. Depends on your specific plumbing situation, I guess - and whether you have a good place to put the tank. The upside is there's no return line to route back to the water heater. You do have to connect the T&P to a drain (I'm using the sink drain) and have a catch tray under the tank.

I looked at the recirc systems. They're a good option. One thing I liked about them is that they don't take up a lot of space under the sink. But in the end I chose the mini-tank because (a) less energy use - they avoid the continuous significant heat loss from the piping, and (b) doesn't have a pump, which will, like any pump, give out sooner or later.

Not claiming it's a better solution... just a different one that has its plusses and minuses.

-Andy

[electrokid]

Can I find these pumps at Lowe's or Hdepot or are they carried and installed only by plumbers?
And thanks for all the replies...

[wrench spinner]

>> "A point of use heater is complicated to install for a shower. You re better off with a recirculating pump. You can get a kit for about $200 dollars. They re easy to install if you have an outlet by your water heater."

I agree that a mini-tank can be a little harder to plumb to a shower, depending on the configuration. I'm adding one to my back bathroom, and it does require a little work but not bad. Depends on your specific plumbing situation, I guess - and whether you have a good place to put the tank. The upside is there's no return line to route back to the water heater. You do have to connect the T&P to a drain (I'm using the sink drain) and have a catch tray under the tank.

I looked at the recirc systems. They're a good option. One thing I liked about them is that they don't take up a lot of space under the sink. But in the end I chose the mini-tank because (a) less energy use - they avoid the continuous significant heat loss from the piping, and (b) doesn't have a pump, which will, like any pump, give out sooner or later.

Not claiming it's a better solution... just a different one that has its plusses and minuses.

-Andy

How can you posibly connect to your sink drain with your T&P and still meet codes! Not to knock ya man but the whole thing sounds a little over engineered. And witht he grudfos system you do not need to add a line for recirc.

P.S. the grundfos system will use half the energy of your tank, you can put a timer on the recirc you really cant on the point of use unless it is a tankless, and those are not the best,

P.P.S. your point of use tank will go out too, just like the pump, the difference is a pump will go out and not pump, your point of use will go out and leak, leak alot possibly, and doing a lot of damage!

[wrench spinner]

Can I find these pumps at Lowe's or Hdepot or are they carried and installed only by plumbers?
And thanks for all the replies...

You can find the kits at home depot and you can probably install it with no real problems.

[electrokid]

Can I find these pumps at Lowe's or Hdepot or are they carried and installed only by plumbers?
And thanks for all the replies...

[wrench spinner]

Care to re-read the responses you got?

[Andy_M]

How can you posibly connect to your sink drain with your T&P and still meet codes! Not to knock ya man but the whole thing sounds a little over engineered. And witht he grudfos system you do not need to add a line for recirc.

P.S. the grundfos system will use half the energy of your tank, you can put a timer on the recirc you really cant on the point of use unless it is a tankless, and those are not the best,

P.P.S. your point of use tank will go out too, just like the pump, the difference is a pump will go out and not pump, your point of use will go out and leak, leak alot possibly, and doing a lot of damage!

Oops, I think you're right - I probably did blow it code-wise as far as connecting the T&P to the sink drain. I'll have to come up with something different.

You're also right about the recirc line. You don't need one with the Grundfos "retrofit" kit. For new installations, I think they do use a dedicated return line. My comment was based on my feeling that I didn't think that using the cold side as the return was a great solution. You don't have cold water... you have "warm" water. So now you are losing energy from the water heater every time you run the COLD water, too? Yes, I understand it's not much. But, it doesn't strike me as an energy efficient approach. I suspect that the manufacturer agrees, which is why they use a dedicated return line on the new work systems.

With all due respect, I don't buy at all that the recirc system will necessarily use less energy than a four gallon mini-tank. The pump will consume peanuts, but the heat loss you suffer by keeping hot water in the pipes (which are very effective at losing heat) will be very significant. Of course, in a comparison, a lot depends on how well insulated the mini-tank is. When I put in my kitchen system, I thought I would give it a try and see how it did. The result is that the heating element "on" light is almost never lit. We could debate this but without measuring the energy consumption of two otherwise identical systems using the two approaches, there would be no conclusion. From my perspective, the heat loss from a 4 gallon insulated tank is bound to be much, much less in comparison to the heat loss from 3/4 copper tubing.... even with pipe wrap... due to the unfavorable surface area to volume ratio of the pipe. We make heat exchangers out of copper tubing....

By the way, there is no problem putting a timer on your mini-tank. It works fine, I did it in the kitchen. The tank turns off at night and when I'm at work. It's only heating 4 gallons, which takes maybe 20 or 30 minutes. In retrospect, I'm not using a timer on the bathroom heater. The kitchen experience showed me that the tank doesn't use enough energy to be worth the timer. I don't understand your comment on putting a timer on a tankless, though. Why would you want to do this? The tankless is a demand system, no? Am I missing something here? I do totally agree that tankless systems don't make a lot of sense in many applications. They're probably great if you don't have any room for a tank type heater... say if you live in a tiny flat in France...

Finally, longevity.... I agree that tanks do fail. One must keep an eye on a tank for leaks, whether it's a mini-tank or a main tank. I think ten years out of a tank is a reasonable expectation, though. The Ariston I bought has a replaceable anode and you are supposed to change it every year ($15). We'll see how long the tank ends up lasting. You might be right, I don't know. On the other hand, I have a lot of experience with coolant pumps and am comfortable saying that while the manufacturer always has test data that shows long life for their pump, we never, ever, ever (did I mention "ever"?) actually get anywhere near the lifespans quoted by the manufacturers. Pumps don't hold up in real world conditions. Hot water has mineral precipitation issues that tend to crud up the pump (that's a technical term!) and cause problems, and the pump is put right at the hot water heater outlet. I think Grundfos cites a 10 year life span. Again, based on my experience with pumps costing a lot more than $200... I think that would be great but I just don't buy it.

So, I don't see the issue as black and white favoring either approach. There are pros and cons, and a lot depends on how you weight them . A physicist named Anderson once said, "There is no problem, however complicated, which when you look at it the right way does not become still more complicated".

-Andy

[JCsPlumbing]

ENGINEER FIGHT! ENGINEER FIGHT! EVERYBODY BACK UP! THERE'S GONNA' BE SOME CUTTIN' WITH SLIDERULES!!! :eek:

J.C.

[JCsPlumbing]

By the way, I have to agree with Wrench.

If I read your posts and remember correctly, you are heading towards three separate water heater's to install and maintain Andy. You might be better served with the pump too.

J.C.

[Andy_M]

>> "If I read your posts and remember correctly, you are heading towards three separate water heater's to install and maintain Andy. You might be better served with the pump too."

Yes, two mini's and the main tank. There's another bathroom but it's right close to the main tank. The installs aren't much. I will have to see how painful the maintenance is, changing anodes and all that.

You guys might well prove to be right. But my choice wasn't made carelessly. I really think the tanks are going to be more energy efficient. If it proves to be a bad idea, I'll be the first to admit it and do something different. So far, the one I've got running in the kitchen is doing well... only been a year though... we shall see!

-Andy