supprised tonight

[housecarer]

A 30 yrs experienced plumber came to my house for my oil to gas conversion project estimation. To my supprise, he very strongly suggest me keeping oil because he think the total cost for oil heating is cheaper than gas heating. almost everybody tells us gas heating is cheaper than oil and few neighbours just did conversion this year. now we are confused. what is your opinions? He told us the 86% efficiency oil boiler is the same good as 95% efficiency gas boiler. we are lost.

[wbrooks]

I did a proposal at our community center to replace the 10 year old oil furnace with a high efficiency natural gas and the payback was 1.4 years.
This was based on equivalent energy VS cost, we used approximately 5300 litres (1400 gal) per year of heating oil. Savings in 5 years was $9,400 including the $4300 for the new furnace. Typically energy prices in Ontario are at par or higher than most of the USA. BTW this was done with the price of heating oil before it went nuts last year. Post the average amount of fuel you currently use in a year, price per gallon, efficiency of current furnace, efficiency of new furnace, price of natural gas, cost of new boiler and I will attempt a price comparison for you.
You can also look around this site (https://portal-plumprod.cgc.enbridge.com/portal/server.pt?open=512&objID=575&PageID=0&cached=true&mode=2&userID=2)or your own NG supplier site for info

Estimated 5 year cost


Old furnace
Fuel $21,500
Maintenance program $ 821
Total $22,321

New Furnace
Capital Cost (5 year warranty) $4399
Fuel $8500
Total $12899

[housecarer]

how about compare a new oil boiler with a new gas boiler?

[wbrooks]

I would imagine the cost of either type of new boiler will be in the same ballpark unless one is mid efficiency and the other is high efficiency.
Just compare the cost of the two fuels for the same amount of energy, around here NG is by far cheaper than oil, also if it matters to you, NG is a local product, oil may or may not be (we have lots of both up here but still pay market rates :mad:)

[Chemeng]

When I changed out my oil furnace in a 100 year old Toronto house in 1991, the gas company charged NOTHING to run the pipe right up to my stone foundation wall. Today that service is still free. Then to run a 1&1/2" blackiron pipe through a 24 " stone foundation and 3 feet to the furnace does not cost alot w.r.t. the TOTAL cost of the furnace replacement job. If you are replacing an old oil furnace in Toronto you have to be INSANE to go with oil. The cost for OIL is as much as double natural gas (a two years ago it was a $1.40 CAN a litre!). That high efficiency Carrier natural gas furnace has paid for itself many, many, many times over! The only main reason to go oil again on a furnace replacement job is if you don't have natural gas on your street, and even then, most go propane in Canada. As I type this, on another house I am removing a 2 years old BROCK oil furnace & tank and if I'm lucky maybe I can sell it, but I won't get much for it :mad:

[NHMaster3015]

Freebies and rebates aside, your plumber was correct. There are 140,000 btu's in a gallon of # 2 fuel oil and an equivalent amount of nat gas has around 85-90,000 btu's.

[toolaholic]

Would be nice to know what market area You're in. Got address ????

[Gene Bickford]

almost everybody tells us gas heating is cheaper than oil and few neighbours just did conversion this year. .

will an oil to gas conversion save you $$$?

I couldn't tell you, but one thing I've learned in life is never trust the opinion of someone that just spent $1000's on a product. Even if it's total junk, and even ends up costing them more, they will give you the same sales pitch the salesman gave them in order to avoid looking like a fool for spending so much.

[handybull]

will an oil to gas conversion save you $$$?

I couldn't tell you, but one thing I've learned in life is never trust the opinion of someone that just spent $1000's on a product. Even if it's total junk, and even ends up costing them more, they will give you the same sales pitch the salesman gave them in order to avoid looking like a fool for spending so much.

Well said

[Chemeng]

"To my supprise, he (your plumber) very strongly suggest me keeping oil because he think the total cost for oil heating is cheaper than gas heating."

This statement is FALSE if he is referring to PIPED NATURAL GAS period (in my geographical area of Toronto).

[housecarer]

Would be nice to know what market area You're in. Got address ????
In CT close to MA

[housecarer]

My situation is the existing oil boiler is old and need to be replaced. He told us, the cost to change an oil boiler is much cheaper than place a new gas boiler (about half the cost). And the long run cost using oil will be cheaper than using gas, if we can fill oil when it is cheaper during summer and we can add another tank for cheaper oil storage.

[Chemeng]

You won't be saving much when you go through 1-2 tanks (900 litres) of oil a month in the winter...How many extra tanks do you plan to put in your basement to stock up and save on oil in the summer? 10? Call on others for second, third, forth opinions and quotes.
Go natural gas my friend!

[mtburdick]

Just a few points id like to make real quick. After working for a oil company for a few years and then working with a plumber who only does natural gas these are a few things that come to mind when dealing with oil
1. With natural gas you dont have to worry about getting sonagrams done on your tank.
2. You never have to worry about the tank failing and oil being throught your basement or all over your yard. Thats a very hefty expense if it should ever happen.
3. No fuel filters that need to be replaced yearly.
4. Oil equipment needs to be tuned up yearly. Where with natural gas you can get away with out tuning it up for about 5 years.
Im sure there are a few things im forgetting but. I personally would say without having those things to pay for that gas would still be worth it even if it was a little more expensive.

[plumberscrack]

The smell that sticks to EVERYTHING!!!!!

[Chemeng]

Yah, and don't forget the EXTRA cost in INSURANCE premiums. I had to pay $100 more on a $500 premium since the furnace is oil. The extra $100 is for oil spill contamination to the soil. $100 a year over the time you live in that house will add up quickly....and if you ever have to rebuild your chimney to keep an oil furnace, you will see that power vent natural gas is the way to go.

OIL... :rotflmao1:

[gear junkie]

Freebies and rebates aside, your plumber was correct. There are 140,000 btu's in a gallon of # 2 fuel oil and an equivalent amount of nat gas has around 85-90,000 btu's.It's this very reason why you may also have to change your ductwork if you switch. Same thing when people go from gas to a heat pump.

[plumberscrack]

It's this very reason why you may also have to change your ductwork if you switch. Same thing when people go from gas to a heat pump.

I did not know that

[wbrooks]

I have never seen duct work changed when going from a modern oil to a NG furnace, yes for the old octopus furnaces. I thought we were talking about a boiler system here but there are so many threads from this OP it is hard to keep track

[Chemeng]

Wbrooks, I also have never seen ductwork changed on a modern oil (1960 to 2009) to natural gas conversion. Octopus ducting yes, not not modern ducting. Set the new natural gas furnace thermostat at 70oF and aways she goes. (obviously you would install the right sized BTU furnace for your needs).
I have seen high efficiency natural gas furnaces from about 56,000 BTU to 125,000 BTU, anyone know of a larger than 125,000 BTU high efficiency natural gas furnace? (I have seen a two furnace install on a massive house).

[HVAC HAWK]

It's this very reason why you may also have to change your ductwork if you switch. Same thing when people go from gas to a heat pump.

ben i see your point but it still is based on the total CFM the system puts out .you size the gas btus the same you will get the same heat out of it ,but you may use mor gas but it is still cheeper then oil in the long run

in the 20 yrs from when i changed from oil to gas all i have to do is clean any dust that gets around my burner ,oil i would have filter changes and tune ups ,chimney cleaned out a couple times and have to put up with the nois od an oil burner

[HVAC HAWK]

Wbrooks, I also have never seen ductwork changed on a modern oil (1960 to 2009) to natural gas conversion. Octopus ducting yes, not not modern ducting. Set the new natural gas furnace thermostat at 70oF and aways she goes. (obviously you would install the right sized BTU furnace for your needs).
I have seen high efficiency natural gas furnaces from about 56,000 BTU to 125,000 BTU, anyone know of a larger than 125,000 BTU high efficiency natural gas furnace? (I have seen a two furnace install on a massive house).

we had to put 3 units together [commercial building ] to get the right heat output ,this was split systems .if we could have gon with a roof top we would have had enough .

[BrandonG]

Just a few points id like to make real quick. After working for a oil company for a few years and then working with a plumber who only does natural gas these are a few things that come to mind when dealing with oil
1. With natural gas you dont have to worry about getting sonagrams done on your tank.
2. You never have to worry about the tank failing and oil being throught your basement or all over your yard. Thats a very hefty expense if it should ever happen.
3. No fuel filters that need to be replaced yearly.
4. Oil equipment needs to be tuned up yearly. Where with natural gas you can get away with out tuning it up for about 5 years.
Im sure there are a few things im forgetting but. I personally would say without having those things to pay for that gas would still be worth it even if it was a little more expensive.



OMFG did you really just say that??? Show me one installation manual that says you can hold off for 5 years!!!! For any gas boiler.......Even Vissemann!!!:angry::confused:

[BrandonG]

The smell that sticks to EVERYTHING!!!!!




You obviously never had an experienced tech help you out......Funny just i have had quite a few customers of ours compliment me on how they can't smell oil when I am done with them.......QUALITY IS NEVER AN ACCIDENT!!

[gear junkie]

I have never seen duct work changed when going from a modern oil to a NG furnace, yes for the old octopus furnaces. I thought we were talking about a boiler system here but there are so many threads from this OP it is hard to keep track
I just caught we talking about a boiler, I thought we're talking a furnace. Scratch that.

[NHMaster3015]

There are two to three posters on this thread that have absolutely no clue what they are talking about.

Gas appliances need to be serviced yearly, just like oil appliances do.

Oil appliances in the 85% + efficiency range, burn just as clean as any gas appliance.

Oil appliances do not give off carbon monoxide if there is a venting problem

Oil appliances do not blow your house off the foundation if there is a fuel leak.

I can find no insurance company anywhere that charges more if you have an oil tank. where did that crap come from?

Anyone wishing to really educate themselves on the difference in operating costs and the pro's and con's should log on to www.nora-oilheat.org/ and do some reading.

This thread is a perfect example of the ignorant attempting to educate. :mad:

[plumberscrack]

There are two to three posters on this thread that have absolutely no clue what they are talking about.

Gas appliances need to be serviced yearly, just like oil appliances do.

Oil appliances in the 85% + efficiency range, burn just as clean as any gas appliance.

Oil appliances do not give off carbon monoxide if there is a venting problem

Oil appliances do not blow your house off the foundation if there is a fuel leak.

I can find no insurance company anywhere that charges more if you have an oil tank. where did that crap come from?

Anyone wishing to really educate themselves on the difference in operating costs and the pro's and con's should log on to www.nora (http://www.<b>nora</b>)-oilheat.org/ and do some reading.

This thread is a perfect example of the ignorant attempting to educate. :mad:

I always understood that improper combustion of any fossil fuel appliance including oil would give off carbon monoxide.

I would be interested to hear otherwise

[NHMaster3015]

Oil-fired central heating systems are not particularly dangerous as sources of carbon monoxide. This is not because oil-fired units cannot produce carbon monoxide; they can. However, most oil burners operating without enough combustion air will produce smoke, soot and odors before they produce significant amounts of carbon monoxide. Most people have their heating systems repaired when they produce smoke, soot or odor, and so problems with carbon monoxide are averted. It is important, however, that consumers regard smoke or soot formation and odors as significant problems to which they must promptly attend. Unlike gas appliances that can, do and will produce signifigant amounts of Carbon monoxide. There is not one single reported and confirmed case of anyone dying due to carbon monoxide produced from a residential oil burner.

[Chemeng]

Ok, the insurance thing is not "crap" as you put, and you are correct, at least one person has no clue what they are talking about.
Here are the facts:
1. TD INSURANCE MELOCHE MONNEX in Toronto, Canada 1-800-268-8955 charges $89.95 in addition to your regular premium for "fuel oil spill or leakage and soil contamination" coverage to $300,000 for clean up. Call them-
2. An oil appliance will NEVER burn as cleanly as a natural gas appliance because of the chemical make up of the fuel...take a peek in a BLACK SOOTY chimney of an oil appliance... or look at a diesel engine's exhaust(and also study some chemistry to verify this).
3. Most homes with oil furnaces smell of oil in the furnace room...I said "most" not "all" even if its just a little...unless your nose is SHOT!
4. Oil cost MORE to heat than natural gas in major metro area where street natural gas exists...period.
5. Try rebuilding a masonry chimney for oil furnaces, and see if it costs more than ABS or PVC power venting!


Quote:
"There are two to three posters on this thread that have absolutely no clue what they are talking about.

Gas appliances need to be serviced yearly, just like oil appliances do.

Oil appliances in the 85% + efficiency range, burn just as clean as any gas appliance.

Oil appliances do not give off carbon monoxide if there is a venting problem

Oil appliances do not blow your house off the foundation if there is a fuel leak.

I can find no insurance company anywhere that charges more if you have an oil tank. where did that crap come from?

Anyone wishing to really educate themselves on the difference in operating costs and the pro's and con's should log on to www.nora (http://www.%3cb%3enora%3c/b%3E)-oilheat.org/ and do some reading.

This thread is a perfect example of the ignorant attempting to educate"

[BrandonG]

3.
Most homes with oil furnaces smell of oil in the furnace room...I said "most" not "all" even if its just a little...unless your nose is SHOT!
Oil cost MORE to heat than natural gas in major metro area where street natural gas exists...period."



"To my supprise, he (your plumber) very strongly suggest me keeping oil because he think the total cost for oil heating is cheaper than gas heating."

This statement is FALSE if he is referring to PIPED NATURAL GAS period (in my geographical area of Toronto).


As you said in your area maybe but I still dont belive it.
Oil 140,000 BTUS-
Gas 85,000-90,000
Not insulting your intelligence but my math tells me all day im getting more heat for my money?????

[cpw]

As you said in your area maybe but I still dont belive it.
Oil 140,000 BTUS-
Gas 85,000-90,000
Not insulting your intelligence but my math tells me all day im getting more heat for my money?????

How much does it cost for the 140,000 BTUs (I'm assuming in a gallon of oil) vs. the 90,000 BTUs in some unit of gas?

[NHMaster3015]

Ok, the insurance thing is not "crap" as you put, and you are correct, at least one person has no clue what they are talking about.
Here are the facts:
1. TD INSURANCE MELOCHE MONNEX in Toronto, Canada 1-800-268-8955 charges $89.95 in addition to your regular premium for "fuel oil spill or leakage and soil contamination" coverage to $300,000 for clean up. Call them-
2. An oil appliance will NEVER burn as cleanly as a natural gas appliance because of the chemical make up of the fuel...take a peek in a BLACK SOOTY chimney of an oil appliance... or look at a diesel engine's exhaust(and also study some chemistry to verify this).
3. Most homes with oil furnaces smell of oil in the furnace room...I said "most" not "all" even if its just a little...unless your nose is SHOT!
4. Oil cost MORE to heat than natural gas in major metro area where street natural gas exists...period.
5. Try rebuilding a masonry chimney for oil furnaces, and see if it costs more than ABS or PVC power venting!


Quote:
"There are two to three posters on this thread that have absolutely no clue what they are talking about.

Gas appliances need to be serviced yearly, just like oil appliances do.

Oil appliances in the 85% + efficiency range, burn just as clean as any gas appliance.

Oil appliances do not give off carbon monoxide if there is a venting problem

Oil appliances do not blow your house off the foundation if there is a fuel leak.

I can find no insurance company anywhere that charges more if you have an oil tank. where did that crap come from?

Anyone wishing to really educate themselves on the difference in operating costs and the pro's and con's should log on to www.nora (http://www.%3cb%3enora%3c/b%3E)-oilheat.org/ and do some reading.

This thread is a perfect example of the ignorant attempting to educate"

That's Canada man. You guy's do all kinds of weird stuff up there :D

[NHMaster3015]

Propane(95,000 BTU/gal)@$1.55 per gal= $16.25 per million BTU
Oil (140,000 BTU/gal)@$2.00 per gal= $14.30 per million BTU
Elect (3410 BTU/ KwHr)@ $.10 per KwHr= $29.00 per million BTU
Nat Gas is a little more complicated to compute but
most gas companies NOW sell it on a $ per million BTU basis or they can give you this value, my guess is the price now is about $9.00 per million BTU. Since natural gas is more local ly produced energy it would normally be the lower priced source. Most propane comes from processing natural gas so the processing costs will make it more costly , and we know where most oil comes from and it will be more volatile pricing.You can fine tune this table by asking your local supplier for their precise numbers, but mine won't be far off and most suppliers will just roll their eyes back into their heads if you ask such questions. Anyhow you can see it is easy to compare energy types, the trick is to determine how efficient the appliances are and here you look at the nameplates on the appliance and (hope) its there. For instance if you had two oil heaters each with the same input rating of 100,000 BTU/hr and one had an efficency of 100% and the other had 50% you can see you'd use twice as much fuel in the lower efficient appliance.

[mtburdick]

[/SIZE]



OMFG did you really just say that??? Show me one installation manual that says you can hold off for 5 years!!!! For any gas boiler.......Even Vissemann!!!:angry::confused:

I havent installed Vissemann yet but the company rep that works out of western mass said that vissemanns new wall hung condensing boilers i forget the names of them could be left without servicing for 7 years. I havent checked on that one but i dont know if ill ever install one. So no point in that for me.

[NHMaster3015]

I attended the Buderus GB142 seminar last spring, a very similar unit to the Viesmann and nobody said anything about 7 years between service.

[BrandonG]

I havent installed Vissemann yet but the company rep that works out of western mass said that vissemanns new wall hung condensing boilers i forget the names of them could be left without servicing for 7 years. I havent checked on that one but i dont know if ill ever install one. So no point in that for me.



Jim bolduc is the sales rep for ME NH MASS and I will ask him monday about this. Vitodens 100, 200 with the matrix burner i know all about them they have to be serviced every year. Anything that burns anything that has moving parts has to be cleaned once a year MIN!!!


Quote...Side note the New wall hungs have zero thats right 0 carbon monoxide exhausting from them.......Unquote Jim bolduc

????