Drill Bits for cast iron?

[Theron]

For those of you out there that clear drains from time to time, I know you have been tempted and have succeeded in drilling a hole in cast iron pipe (regular and XH) instead of installing a cleanout. I regularly use an angle grinder with a diamond blade or metal cutting blade to cut cast iron. What type of drill bits do i need to be buying in order to drill through cast? I have tried titanium coated high speed steel, but all i seem to be doing is making them dull and putting shiny spots on the pipe. I have a ridgid 18volt hammerdrill to power these so i know it's not a lack of power. I assume i should have it on high speed to drill through cast. Any help is welcomed along with web page links to look at pretty drill bits.

[imported_PLUMBER RICK]

theron, drilling a hole to access a line is ok for a quick temporary emergency. but is no means a permanant fix. how do you keep sewage from leaking and roots from coming into the joint? sure i've done this, but that's just to let the waste out and allow for snaking. then i install a proper c/o.
now for the answer you're looking for. the proper drill bit you need is a carbide tipped hole saw. this will cost approx. 75-100 dollars. you are better with the grinder since this is a temp. fix. it will also allow for a rectanguar hole to allow for the cutter to fit in easier.

rick.

[Theron]

Carbide tipped eh? I may stick with the angle grinder. I only cut this in vents not drain lines. That would be a mess. I usually only do it for the poor who can't afford a proper cleanout or when i'm in an appartment complex or high rise and there isn't enough room or time to remove a section of pipe to put in a cleanout.

[plumber]

Theron,

If you are cutting into a C.I. vent to allow for a clean out access and not installing a cleanout, you are not doing your poorer customers a favor. How are you repairing the pipe?


The cost of a test tee, adapters and no hub bands are only about 30 dollars wholesale. If you are worried about their wallets just don't mark up the fittings. But to just grind a hole in their stack and jury rig some kind of patch is the kind of feeble garbage I have seen the thieves from Roto Rooter do to the poorer and less educated consumers.

Do yourself and the customer a favor, cut out a section of pipe and install a proper cleanout. Everyone is better off that way.

[Theron]

I would agree with you - a cleanout is the way to go. Yes a hole in the pipe or a section cut out does look like crap. Markup - well the company won't let me flex on that, otherwise i would do it. Only specific situations would call for such. When it's done unnecessarily that is poor craftsmanship. I was working in a high rise appartment building that had an access panel above the toilet. The panel wasn't big enough to let me install a proper cleanout. It would have cost the customer more money and time to patch the drywall i would have to remove in order to install it. Time was the big factor there and it was their decision. I never make that decision and I educate the customer to know what i'm doing isn't the best thing for them, but it will serve the purpose of a cleanout. I have yet to do that (cut a hole in the pipe) in residential. I'm not saying cutting a hole is the way to go - 9 times out of ten i am able to install a proper cleanout with no hubs or ferncos. You wanted to know how i patch the "cleanout" - it usually ends up being an 1 1/2" x 1 1/2" square hole that i put duct tape over and then slit a fernco and band it on there. I only do this in vent lines never in drain or it won't hold at all.

[plumbdog10]

This is plumbing at it's worst. If it costs more, so be it. If they don't want to pay, walk away. Duct tape is not a proper seal for a vent line. Sewer gas can be dangerous, do the job correctly or don't do it at all.

the dog :cool:

[Theron]

As far as your comments about Roto Rooter - smile.gif I'll be nice and keep my comments short and appropriate in case there are any fellow roto-rooter employees in this forum. It only takes a few bad apples to spoil the whole bunch. Some technicians from our company do shoddy work. Some of the callbacks i have to do are rediculous. One i had to do today, a guy had put wax from a toilet ring in some no hubs to try to seal a leak when he should have replaced the no hubs. His excuse was that he didn't have them on his truck. What a joke. It made our company look bad and i had to fix it again. Those guys typically don't make it more than six months because they're not plumbers and they have no morals or business ethics. Our company does have a plumbing school, finally, that teaches you all about codes and what is and is not appropriate. Every new hire has a 3 month ride-along program with a certified trainer. In fact I have a trainee. I have to sign off on this guy in a month and a half on whether or not i think he is ready for the road (he's pretty close to being ready). I have had guys in my truck that just didn't get it and we had to let them go. I'm relatively young, but i'm in this for life. I have no intentions of doing shoddy work and stealing from people. I'm all about pleasing the customer and doing excellent work. It's their decision to have a hole instead of a cleanout. I only offer the hole to them if they state a valid reason (time or money) for not wanting a cleanout installed. It's not the first thing i offer them, its the last. I hope you guys don't hate me now for doing that. I'm in this forum to learn from y'all. Do you think i shouldn't offer it at all? Is my method of sealing it the best? I feel as bad about "cleanout" holes as i do when i see a compression fitting. And i know all of you have a few compression fittings on your trucks for that "just in case" occasion smile.gif

[Theron]

Duct tape isn't a seal it's a gasket the fernco is the seal. Is there a better way to do that? I'm totally open to suggestions.

[plumbdog10]

Originally posted by Theron:
As far as your comments about Roto Rooter - smile.gif I'll be nice and keep my comments short and appropriate in case there are any fellow roto-rooter employees in this forum. It only takes a few bad apples to spoil the whole bunch. Some technicians from our company do shoddy work. Some of the callbacks i have to do are rediculous. One i had to do today, a guy had put wax from a toilet ring in some no hubs to try to seal a leak when he should have replaced the no hubs. His excuse was that he didn't have them on his truck. What a joke. It made our company look bad and i had to fix it again. Those guys typically don't make it more than six months because they're not plumbers and they have no morals or business ethics. Our company does have a plumbing school, finally, that teaches you all about codes and what is and is not appropriate. Every new hire has a 3 month ride-along program with a certified trainer. In fact I have a trainee. I have to sign off on this guy in a month and a half on whether or not i think he is ready for the road (he's pretty close to being ready). I have had guys in my truck that just didn't get it and we had to let them go. I'm relatively young, but i'm in this for life. I have no intentions of doing shoddy work and stealing from people. I'm all about pleasing the customer and doing excellent work. It's their decision to have a hole instead of a cleanout. I only offer the hole to them if they state a valid reason (time or money) for not wanting a cleanout installed. It's not the first thing i offer them, its the last. I hope you guys don't hate me now for doing that. I'm in this forum to learn from y'all. Do you think i shouldn't offer it at all? Is my method of sealing it the best? I feel as bad about "cleanout" holes as i do when i see a compression fitting. And i know all of you have a few compression fittings on your trucks for that "just in case" occasion smile.gif Theron,

Sealing a vent pipe with duct tape is against any code in the country. As a plumber you have the resposibility of protecting public health and saftey. This should not be an option.

the dog :cool:

[Theron]

Please keep in mind guys, I do everything by the book (the KY state code book). This is the only grey area i step into. Some guys are for it some are against it. I am against it. I've been doing this for only three years. Help me out smile.gif

[Theron]

So it's not grey, it's black and white - I'll stop doing it then. I couldn't find it in the book so it must not be code.

[Theron]

Some of you guys are in cali. Is there Roto Rooter where you are? Do they have a bad reputation?

[imported_PLUMBER RICK]

theron. roto-rooter is in calif. i only hear the bad and ugly. i'm sure there is just as much good as there is bad.
it doesn't take that much extra to cut the vent and put in a no hub band. a fernco (all rubber band)is not legal inside of the building in calif. it has to be a shielded band.
why not try from the roof vent if it's an easy access, or remove the trap and snake from the fixture?

rick.

[Theron]

Well I do of course remove the trap and run it from there whenever possible. Roto-Rooter won't let us on the roof starting this year unless it's a commercial flat roof with access for insurance purposes. Like i said it's a last resort. What i should be doing is installing the proper cleanout. Removing more drywall and doing it right is just the cost of doing the job right. I see where you guys are coming from and i agree. This is wierd - In Kentucky Ferncos are approved for underground use only and no hubs are not approved for underground, but above ground. Is that true of most states? Our code book states that we have to trap every drain on a three compartment sink instead of just having one for the whole sink. I work KY, OH, and IN so i have to be familiar with all the codes in those states and KY is wierd compared to them. But alas we could start an entire new topic on wierd plumbing codes and local codes smile.gif .

[plumber]

Theron,

The outfit you work for has one of the worst reputations in the entire country regarding quality, honesty and professionalism amoung licensed plumbers and competent contractors. I personally know several plumbers that used to be under their thumb. All of them are happy that's in their past. In the days when I did an extensive amount of service everytime I followed roto rapers so called plumbers it was one disaster after the next.

How much training are they giving you regarding your plumbing skills? Judging by the information you seek my guess would be they still train you to sell and let you learn your plumbing skills on your own.

If an apartment owner does not want to pay to do it right then follow Plumbdog and Ricks advice and walk away. I promise you such a landlord will be screaming to your boss about your shoddy workmanship in the future. Even if you were just following his orders.

You are supposed to be the professional, Tell the landlord you won't do it. Its your integrity on the line and he is already showing you he has none.

Theron, your posts indicate that you care about the quality of your work and given what you wrote about your concern for the financially less fortunate it looks like you have scruples as well. With three years of experience and your seemingly good attitude you might consider testing the job market with other contractors. That your bosses hadn't advised you about not using fernco's and duct tape inside a building after three years should tell you all you need to know about their concern for your training or your future.

[Theron]

I can see your points on roto. I will openly admit the majority of our guys do not have enough experience in plumbing. We are the best drain cleaning outfit in the tri-state where i live. There's a lot of "pop and run" companies around here. They give you the plumbing school, and the on the road training - the rest is up to you. If you want to pursue licenses (which i am currently) they will pay for any schooling and fees on a reimbursement basis. It's unfortunate that a lot of guys don't feel its necessary to further their education. I was a res. new construction plumber for about a year and a half before roto, and now i've been there for a year and a half. I'm six months away from taking my journeyman license test for KY. I came to the table with some experience, but they will hire guys with no experience, and no mechanical aptitude along with very experienced guys. Our branch is trying to weed out the horrible guys, but in this day it takes a lot to get fired. The trainee that's with me has about 20 years plumbing maintenence experience, so i will have no problem signing off on him for his knowledge and business ethics in a month and a half. I have had guys that i wouldn't let past the ride along day one tryout before you're hired; Guys with horrible work ethics and no experience that didn't understand the concepts of venting and drainage, pressure and volume. My personal goal is to get my master license in ky in 2 1/2 years and see whether or not at that time i want to stay at roto or go elsewhere. Kentucky requires no formal school to aquire a license, just that you pass the test and have a master endorsement with two years experience based on your w-2's. Ohio, however, requires a four year accredited school to get your journeyman- is that the usual for most states?

[ToUtahNow]

Originally posted by Theron:
As far as your comments about Roto Rooter - smile.gif I'll be nice and keep my comments short and appropriate in case there are any fellow roto-rooter employees in this forum. It only takes a few bad apples to spoil the whole bunch. Some technicians from our company do shoddy work. Some of the callbacks i have to do are rediculous. One i had to do today, a guy had put wax from a toilet ring in some no hubs to try to seal a leak when he should have replaced the no hubs. His excuse was that he didn't have them on his truck. What a joke. It made our company look bad and i had to fix it again. Those guys typically don't make it more than six months because they're not plumbers and they have no morals or business ethics. Our company does have a plumbing school, finally, that teaches you all about codes and what is and is not appropriate. Every new hire has a 3 month ride-along program with a certified trainer. In fact I have a trainee. I have to sign off on this guy in a month and a half on whether or not i think he is ready for the road (he's pretty close to being ready). I have had guys in my truck that just didn't get it and we had to let them go. I'm relatively young, but i'm in this for life. I have no intentions of doing shoddy work and stealing from people. I'm all about pleasing the customer and doing excellent work. It's their decision to have a hole instead of a cleanout. I only offer the hole to them if they state a valid reason (time or money) for not wanting a cleanout installed. It's not the first thing i offer them, its the last. I hope you guys don't hate me now for doing that. I'm in this forum to learn from y'all. Do you think i shouldn't offer it at all? Is my method of sealing it the best? I feel as bad about "cleanout" holes as i do when i see a compression fitting. And i know all of you have a few compression fittings on your trucks for that "just in case" occasion smile.gif In the early days I use to recommend Roto-Rooter on drain cleanings I did not have time for. Back then all they did was drain cleanings and were quite a bit cheaper than “real” plumbers. Over the years in many cases they appear to be more into billing than service and can be quite a bit more expensive than a “real” plumber.

Many years ago one of my service plumbers had stopped by my house to visit. While he was there a father of one of my sons’ friends came to the door. He explained he hire Roto-Rooter for a mainline stoppage which they had worked on all day and still could not get it. After 8-hours of snaking the Roto-Rooter guy gave up and said the mainline needed replacing.

I explained to the neighbor we in fact do that kind of work and would be willing to give him a free second opinion. The home was a tri-level home and Roto-Rooter was snaking the main through a 2” cleanout at the wet bar downstairs. The house was a mess and there was dirty water everywhere.

While the Roto-Rooter guy put away his tools I asked my service plumber to pull the 3 ½” cleanout behind the washing machine and snake the main. Needless to say we cleared the main and had our tools loaded up before Roto-Rooter could write their bill.

Roto-Rooters bill was over $1,600 and recommended a $4,200 mainline replacement. My bill was free and I recommended the homeowner call the Roto-Rooter office and request an adjustment on the bill. Now some 20-years later the mainline has still not been replaced.

I have also worked with the Commercial Plumbers at Roto-Rooters which seemed to be nice guys but a long way from what I considered a plumber. When you talk about a 90-day on the road training for your guys I have to laugh. When I use to hire plumbers who knew what they were doing they’d ride second seat for a year before they got their own service truck. What in the world can you teach a guy in 90-days that you could trust him on his own?

Mark

[plumber]

There is a five year apprenticeship required in the State of Illinois and the apprentice is not allowed to work without direct supervision from his sponser for the first two of those years. There is an all day exam after the apprenticeship that requires a passing grade in all three segments to get a license. Each year there after every plumber in the State of Illinois is required to attend an accredited seminar for continuing education to retain their license.

Now that I know how poorly Kentucky monitors the people who do plumbing work in their State I shant be drinking any more water when I am passing through. In fact I will be staying away from their resturants, motels and stores as well.

No offense Theron, but if you did not know that using duct tape for a gasket was not a proper way to seal cast iron pipe you have no business signing off on anyone elses qualifications. You need to get the heck away from your bosses ASAP and get some proper training.

roto reamer knows how to do marketing very well. Everything else is highly doubtful.

[plumber]

Utah,

In 90 days a guy can probably learn a sales presentation pretty well, how to use the portable credit card machine and if he's lucky where a couple of good coffee shops are located. He certainly will not learn enough about plumbing to be out on his own and charging a professional rate for his work.

[plumbdog10]

I think Theron cares what kind of work he does, he is the victom of poor training. But he cares, otherwise he would not be posting on this site.

The fact is that he is the future of plumbing, and it is up to us who know to educate.

I myself have used Roto-Rooter for sewer locations for years and they did a good job. The company I now work for has their own equipment, so I have not used them in two years.

I think that Theron could do, and should do better. If they are instructing you to do what you have (duct tape), move on.

But do not feel that you have not made an effort. If you took it upon yourself to find this site, and ask questions, you are well on the way to being a plumber.

There are top-flight plumbers here. Plumber is the best, he won't steer you wrong. Plumber Rick can be arrogant, but he is very knowledgable, Utah, is excellelent on code and law situations, and me, I'm I guy who gives opinions, sometimes right, sometimes wrong, but I try hard.

the dog :cool:

[Theron]

I agree 90-days is not enough time. A year is what it should take. But i have to make the best of what i am given and i decide whether or not based on their previous experience and their progress whether or not they get to continue working there. We do allow guys to stay in training for specific cases where they need to learn more. It sounds like that guy didn't understand the concept of cleaning a main line very well. And then he expects the customer to pay for his time even though he didn't fix the problem. It's his fault he used the wrong c/o, and wasted however many hours he did on the line. He has no right to charge that much. His office wouldn't let him keep that money if the customer called in and complained. If your not making any progress in an hour your doing something wrong or the line might have a problem. I never spend more than three hours cleaning a main, it just doesn't take that long. I would never do anything as stupid as that guy, and if i did, the customer certainly wouldn't have to pay for it, I take responsibilty for my own actions. Every line i haven't been able to get open - which is rare - was broken. Verified with camera and replacement. But in summary some of our guys do not have the skills and knowledge to become competent plumbers and those are the guys that give us a bad name, and usually quit within a couple years or get fired for side work.

[Theron]

I'll be honest with you it's not my bosses that taught me the "cleanout" deal with the fernco. It was my trainer. That practice will die with me, I'm not passing it on. I will also advise that at our next meeting the bosses say something to everyone about it, because it isn't code and a lot of guys do it- Some regularly and our company needs to stop that.

[ToUtahNow]

I think what Theron has just described is typical of the large companies where they set a policy which is illegal but teach it for so long they accept it as Code. I represented a Concrete Pumper who was involved on a project with a plumbing company just like that.

This plumbing company was one of the first flat-rate companies and ended up with over 400 Isuzu box vans in California before they started falling apart. The project was an older but expensive home in Palm Springs which had a bad house drain from the master bathroom to the front of the house.

The “new” method this company came up with to make the repair was to tunnel 60’ under the house and replace the house drain. After the new pipe was installed and tested my client was told to pump a slurry mix into the tunnel to back fill the pipe. This home was not the first home my client had done for the plumbing company as they were marketing this method real heavy as a cost saver for cast iron piping which had rusted out.

Because the piping was not properly secured the piping was displaced by the hydrostatic pressure of the slurry mix. To make matters worst the plumber told the pumper to add more pressure to better backfill voids they thought were left in the tunnel. The extra pressure actually bowed the floor and caused the kitchen cabinets to come apart.

Everything the plumber did from the start was illegal. No permits were ever pulled for any of the $15,000 job. The plumber told the owner no permits were required as it was their proprietary work system. The plumber even supplied the slurry and all my guy did was supply the pumper to deliver the slurry.

The damages to the house were better than $100,000. The plumber’s insurance company went bankrupt leaving my client exposed to the full liability of the case. After it was all said and done the plumbing company says there is nothing wrong with what they did and they will continue to do it and my client paid for all damages.

Mark

[imported_PLUMBER RICK]

mark, sounds like george brazil plumbing. hopefully mike diamond plumbing will be next.

both of these companies specialize in flat rate rip offs and scare tacticts. if they had to bid against a legitimate co. they would never get a job.

the mike diamond shop in culver city has more trucks in their yard, that sit, than on the road.
as long as we don't get a major earthquake anytime soon, they too might go away sooner than later.

rick.

[plumber]

It makes one wonder how they did their tunneling.

Did they have some poor schmuck dig under the house by hand? I bet that was a real safe situation.

[ToUtahNow]

plumber,

Not only did they tunnel which is a violation of the UPC they tunneled 60' under a house which was built on sand. By tunneling with 45 degree walls they prevented caveins but a 4' deep ditch ends up with 8' of unsupported slab so the slab cracked throughout the house as well. If OSHA had caught them they would have been out of business.

Mark

[plumber]

Those are the kind of contractors that make my blood boil. There could still be enough of a shift in the sand to trap the poor fellow and cause his death. Or should he have other problems there would be no way to extract him safely.

While I strongly dislike tattle tales, this is an instance where the proper authorities need to be notified. Since you know the names of these people there should be some way to get the proper officials to monitor them before they kill somebody.

[ToUtahNow]

plumber,

I talked to the head of the Building and Saftey Department as the plumber planned on continuing the practice without pulling permits. OSHA was not interested as the job had already been done.

Mark

[toolaholic]

WHAT A JOKE. THEY HAVE A C-36 and hack like that

i plumb doing neat code work with a B gen. on my projects. obviously a licence doesn't always mean much!

[AZPlumber]

Just wanted to say, I simply cannot believe anyone would drill holes into cast vent to make a clean-out then cover it over with....duct tape???

What kind of ridiculousness is this?

If I saw a guy doing that on a job around here I'd report it. Period. You're going to make somebody sick someday.

Unbelievable.

If you can't get a shielded no-hub band on it, don't start the job until it's figured out.

[ 10-31-2005, 05:44 AM: Message edited by: AZPlumber ]

[Theron]

Well gentlemen, If any of you are still reading this that chastised me so bad about that practice in the first place, You will be pleased to hear that Saturday night my trainee and I put in a cleanout in a vent in a closet in a cape cod. Two no hub bands and a 3" Cleanout tee. I also made sure that my trainee would not carry on that horrible practice that i learned from my trainer of cutting the hole in the pipe and slapping on a fernco. We used a Ridgid R1000 Angle Grinder to make quick work of the job. It is probably my favorite tool, must be something about 8 amps of power and 11,000 rpms that fits in the palm of my hands. Some of you may ask, why did you cut the c/o in the second floor closet instead of in the basement- hung sewer.

[plumber]

Good job Theron, glad to see a hardworking man better his tradecraft.

[plumber]

Utah,

Thanks for following up on that unsafe contractor. Even though its thousands of miles away from here its still good to know that the proper officials have been made aware of those idiots. Hopefully the Building and Safety department will watch these bozo's and keep them from killing someone and undermining peoples homes.

Its very disappointing that OSHA is not interested. It sometimes seems they are more interested in writing tickets than pro actively stopping unsafe contractors and workers. Its very similar to around here. The inspectors like to go to sites that are fairly safe and nit pick the workers saftey practices while they drive right by the outfits working with complete disregard to employee or the general publics welfare.

[plumbdog10]

Originally posted by plumber:
Utah,

Thanks for following up on that unsafe contractor. Even though its thousands of miles away from here its still good to know that the proper officials have been made aware of those idiots. Hopefully the Building and Safety department will watch these bozo's and keep them from killing someone and undermining peoples homes.

Its very disappointing that OSHA is not interested. It sometimes seems they are more interested in writing tickets than pro actively stopping unsafe contractors and workers. Its very similar to around here. The inspectors like to go to sites that are fairly safe and nit pick the workers saftey practices while they drive right by the outfits working with complete disregard to employee or the general publics welfare. Plumber,

Here in California we have Cal-OSHA, which is a state department enforcining federal and state saftey regulations. Do you have that in Indiania?

There are problems with this system, which would probably require another thread, which I will start when I have time.

the dog :cool:

[AZPlumber]

Theron, sorry for my harsh post earlier. And it is good to see you are trying to improve the work.

But take no offense at this, however I notice you refer to another individual as a "trainee". In my mind, if you yourself are not a journeyman plumber, this is rather much like the blind training the blind. You can train a guy on how to snake or jet a line, and even how to put on a no-hub band, but as far as drainage systems go neither one of you are aware of proper code and neither one of you has the documentation in hours spent installing drain systems to be able to even come close to passing that part of the test. This is the problem I see with "roto-rooter" type companies, they are sending guys out in the field to perform plumbing jobs without even an apprentice's card, and no formal enrollment in a state approved program to get you the card. It's just, OK boys, grab that torch and pipe wrench and let's make some money. It's scary and I believe many times right on the fringe of illegality. I have seen roto-rooter guys for instance get sent out to a trailer to repair/replace frozen heat loop lines, and upon having a hard time soldering them they just slapped some unions on....INSIDE a wall. One time I saw a guy "repairing" a pinhole leak in a copper line with a piece of rubber hose and a hose clamp. That lasted all of a year or so until the entire line started rotting. I saw another one install a union on a gas line to a water heater BEFORE the valve. I could go on and on. And no supervision, no foreman to check on the work.

The best way to get a plumbing education is to work for a plumbing company, start by roughing in new construction, work your way up to boilers/furnaces, trim, etc. You document all your hours along the way until you can take your test. Just my honest opinion, your not going to learn anything working for a sewer and drain franchise chain except faulty plumbing and snaking lines.

[ 10-31-2005, 10:08 PM: Message edited by: AZPlumber ]

[Theron]

AZPlumber
New contruction is where i started out. I was in that for a year. I was laid off for the winter season so i had to find work quick. Roto-Rooter laid out a pretty sweet deal, so i took it. honestly quite a few of our guys are undertrained and there isn't enough supervision. I will be taking my test this april to get my license, but so many others are doing nothing to further their education and continue to do poor quality work. I see it every week when i do callbacks. Our callbacks are usually rediculous; wrong fittings, didn't use sandcloth, didn't use flux, installed the sanitary tee upside-down, used a tee instead of a wye, etc. All a lot of mistakes that properly trained and licensed professionals wouldn't make. I'm doing everything i can to further my education. I know my codebook fairly well, but i am not licensed. The whole c/o thing was a bad habit/shortcut i picked up from the guy who trained me. One that i've cancelled. I will get my licenses and continue to do my best training the guys I'm given. There are guys at our company that have been there for decades and haven't got their license - what laziness i say. On all jobs i do that require permits, I have one of our masters pull the permit and supervise and inspect my work. I hold myself to a higher standard than what is required at roto-rooter. Why - I'll be a plumber for the rest of my life, but i may not be working at roto-rooter for the rest of my life. But i have to admit you are right on all points about our company.

[plumber]

In Illinois we have the Dept of Public Health and Safety. They have some laws regarding safe work practices but rely on the Federal agency to police their own rules.

There is a need for a State Agency as well or at least another division within the Dept of Public Health but like all States right now there simply isn't enough money to fund it. There are simply too many people out there willing to risk other peoples lives and health to make a buck but without the funds to operate its hard to do very much.

When the son or nephew of a well connected politician from either major party gets badly hurt in a workplace accident there will be all sorts of money "found" somewhere to enforce saftey regulations.

[imported_Bob D.]

Section 18 of the Occupational Safety and Health Act of 1970 (the Act) encourages States to develop and operate their own job safety and health programs. OSHA approves and monitors State plans.

http://www.osha.gov/fso/osp/index.html

The following states have approved State Plans:
Alaska
Arizona
California
Connecticut
Hawaii
Indiana
Iowa
Kentucky
Maryland
Michigan
Minnesota
Nevada
New Jersey
New Mexico
New York
North Carolina
Oregon
Puerto Rico
South Carolina
Tennessee
Utah
Vermont
Virgin Islands
Virginia
Washington
Wyoming

NOTE: The Connecticut, New Jersey, New York and Virgin Islands plans cover public sector (State & local government) employment only.

[AZPlumber]

Theron, sorry for any arrogance or anything untoward I may have been suggesting toward the sewer and drain biz. It's an honorable profession and one many journeyman plumbers are no good at due to it's being a whole skill set of it's own. It's hard work, and normally (should at least) pays very well. And I understand completely about being laid-off and needing to make a paycheck. I started out the same way exactly.

Alot of guys in S&W don't bother getting licenses because it's just not required (yet) for that field. I think this may be changing soon, but for now, it's all legal for anyone with a biz license and insurance to get into the industry. The guys who are GOOD at it stay in biz. I can't say I blame anyone in that industry for not bothering if they really don't plan on getting into the plumbing industry beyond that. There are many S&W companies that refuse actual plumbing work beyond clamping a no hub band on something or replacing a sink P-trap. For good reasons too, they don't want the liability and they are plenty busy jetting and snaking lines. It sounds though you are more ambitious than that and I highly respect both what you do and your willingness to learn.

Anyway, thanks for your replies and good luck.

[Theron]

Thanks for the reply smile.gif sorry it took me so long to reply - I have been working some long hours lately.