Kitchen cabinets - biscuits or dados?

[Henry Anthony]

Hi all,

I am getting ready to use my 2424 for what I really bought it for - making new kitchen cabinets. After a few warm up projects and a lot of research, I am now wondering whether to use traditional dado construction or biscuits. Your comments are appreciated.

Best regards,

Henry

[Jerry Jensen]

By dado, I guess you are considering a half lap joint? When I made my cabinets for my basement, I used half lap joinery and am pleased.

I would also look at pocket hole joinery, seems to make a strong joint and may be a bit simpler to line up than the biscuits.

Take a look at the Kreg: http://www.kregtool.com/

[Docdick]

I would go for the dado..easier,quicker and I think stronger. :cool: :D

[daveferg]

There is a lot of conflicting information, on the actual strength of biskets. While I use them for a lot of purposes, mounting shelving isn't one of them. Kitchen cabinets, at least in our house, have to withstand a great deal of weight and stresses---I'd go with dados---and don't get hung up with too many adjustable shelves---fixed shelves add strength and prevent racking.

Dave

[Dave Arbuckle]

"traditional dado construction or biscuits", in which part of the cabinet?

Four distinct and separate modules in "traditional" cabinets:
Carcase
Face frame
Carcase-to-face frame
Door

Additionally, if carcase, the material used makes a big difference.

Dave

[Henry Anthony]

Hi all,

Let me clarify: Cabinets are Eurostyle, built from 3/4 birch plywood including the back. I am mainly concerned about the carcass at this point. Shelves were planned to be adjustable but am now rethinking based on strength concerns voiced in this forum.

Thanks for all the help so far.

Best regards,

Henry

[Dave Arbuckle]

That takes my list of four down to two.

Biscuits were invented in the fifties, in Europe. Care to guess what application they were made for? ;)
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Dave
That's right, assembling cabinets made of sheet goods. smile.gif

[Henry Anthony]

David,

So, in your opinion, biscuits would be appropriate for carcasses and shelves? I recall a post of yours regarding your friend who uses biscuits on entertianment centers.

I could go with dados or biscuits and have had pretty good results with both methods (after screwing up a couple hundred bucks worth of good stock - paying the dues I guess as I am an optimistic beginner).

The dados have been more difficult to glue up, that's why I am leaning toward biscuits. How far would you space them? For kitchen cabinets I would think about 6".

Thanks all, I haven't yet given up on dados, lord knows I spent $175 on a Super Dado, and

Best regards,

Henry

[Henry Anthony]

David,

So, in your opinion, biscuits would be appropriate for carcasses and shelves? I recall a post of yours regarding your friend who uses biscuits on entertianment centers.

I could go with dados or biscuits and have had pretty good results with both methods (after screwing up a couple hundred bucks worth of good stock - paying the dues I guess as I am an optimistic beginner).

The dados have been more difficult to glue up, that's why I am leaning toward biscuits. How far would you space them? For kitchen cabinets I would think about 6".

Thanks all, I haven't yet given up on dados, lord knows I spent $175 on a Super Dado, and

Best regards,

Henry

[Big Johnson]

Dave,
Thanks for the trivia question and answer. I often wondered who thunk them up... ;)

[Dave Arbuckle]

Big, where? Add on that the inventor was Herman Steiner and that the original company to build the machine was Steiner Lamello, get extra credit. :D

Back to seriouser stuff...

Henry, way I look at it, biscuits are cheap and cabinets live a long time. Few things more annoying than a carcase coming apart, I'd probably go a little tighter than 6", more toward 4". I have to admit an aversion to measuring when I don't have to, so I'd just strike a line every 4-5 inches or so by eyeball.

Dave

[OklahomaRanger]

Boy Dave, an "aversion to measuring when I don't have to"? Your starting to sound like Bob on the "ROUTER WORKSHOP"! :eek: :eek:

[Wood Dog]

BTW, Lamello still makes, I think, what is considered by many to be THE benchmark biscuit jointer. Never seen one but have heard folks talk about them in "hushed tones."

Also, for what its worth, I ran across and posted earlier on a thread about biscuit use a study done on joint strength which included biscuit joints. If anyone is interested, I'll try to pull it back up. Bottm line, the biscuits were at the top of the list. The wood actually tore apart at the point of failure which was several thousand pounds in this particular test. This was a controlled test with testing and measuring equipment set up specically for this purpose. If anyone has taken one of those biscuits and wet it enough to see it swell (by design) you get the idea why it makes such a strong and sturdy joint.

Wood Dog

[Dave Arbuckle]

I've used a Lamello Top20, which is their top of the line. It is a very nice machine, but for the "average Joe", not worth the price difference over, say, a Porter-Cable 557. (Amazon sells 557 for $205, Colonial Saw sells the new Top20s for $629). Fit and finish are stunning, ergonomics so-so (in particular, the power switch is in an odd position, it is easiest to just lock the machine on). It has a neat blade height adjustment for use without the fence, but I'm not sure how many people use that mode.

Dog, you cannot specify a joint as "strongest", without knowing the usage. Circumstances dictate proper methods. Failure of any well-made joint that uses glue will result in wood splintering, because the glue is stronger than the wood itself.

Fine Woodworking recently ran some tests that simulated a rail-to-leg joint. Biscuits failed easier than any of their other choices. However, the failure still required massive stress, more than I would ever expect a kitchen cabinet to receive. I sure wouldn't use them to attach legs to a chair, though.

Dave

[Henry Anthony]

This has been a great thread. Thanks for all your responses and the history lesson, David. After further research I find out that biscuits vs traditional joinery is quite the topic of contention.

One more question. Do you need to glue the whole joint or just the biscuits and the slot?

Best regards,

Henry
(Still unsure as to which method to use)

[Dave Arbuckle]

Whole joint.

Dave

[Wood Dog]

Dave,

That's why I said I would "supply the link" if anyone were interested. Obviously, the joint type is a key factor. This particular test was evaluating rail and stile jointery.

The link is
http://www.netexperts.cc/~lambertm/Wood/biscuit.html

Just thought it was an interesting article, especially with controls and measurements in place.

BTW, I recently picked up the PC557 at HD for $189.00. (reg $220 in Atlanta stores) I took a copy of International Tool's internet ad and got a price match.

Wood Dog

[Henry Anthony]

OK - it's on to the test bench. God knows I have enough scrap to play with redface.gif)

Best regards,

Henry

[Wood Dog]

An interesting point of the test in the article is that even though the biscuits were very strong, when the joint failed, it was rapid and complete. The preferred joint of the testers after all was said and done (for rail and stile joints on doors) was loose tenon or mortise and tenon. When they failed, it was more gradual.

Wood joints......now there's no better way to start a brawl amoung woodworkers. :D :D

Good luck Henry smile.gif
Wood Dog

[Henry Anthony]

Thanks Wood Dog and all the rest. I now have all the knowledge I need to go where no woodworker has gone before (in MY garage).

I'll post my progress from time to time.

Best regards,

Henry