TS3650 Problems!

[strong330]

I just purchased the TS3650 after reading it's decent review in the latest edition of Fine Woodworking. I'm surprised they did not mention the problem that I discovered (unless I'm missing something!!) After stacking 2 dado blades (the two outers in the set for a 1/4" cut)I noticed that one blade cut about 1/16" deeper than the other. I noticed that if a single blade is used, it sits on a "shoulder" on the arbour. It fits very snug there. The other blade sits between the shoulder and the threads in a "dead zone" that has a different diameter than the shoulder making the blade spin off center-and deeper. I was not a happy camper. I put a piece of tape on the arbour to make up the slop-better, but not perfect. Anyone ever experienced this? I'm about ready to return it if they cannot do something about it. Maybe I just got a defective unit that never should have passed their quality controls. Thanks!

[imported_jhill3264]

I've stacked up to 3/4" of dado blades on my saw and I have never encountered what you're saying. If indeed, there is an extra "shoulder" on the arbor shaft, there is definitely something wrong.

Just out of curiosity, could it be your dado blades that are out-of-whack? If you put the right side dado blade on first, is there still some slop, or does it fit securely on the shoulder?

Jim

[imported_MDEly1]

Look thru older messages about dado blades. I recall someone else with this issue. It was one on the concerns I had about the saw, hence I went for another saw.

[strong330]

Thanks for the reply. My dado inside diameters are exactly .625" on both blades (nice Delta blades)The arbor measures .625 on the "shoulder" where one blade sits. About 1/8" away (where the second blade sits) the diam. is .530"! This area is between where the threads end, and the "shoulder" begins. I called tech service and the winner told me to try and hold the blade "centered" while tightening. Should I really have to do that??? He said to mention it when I send the warranty info back and they'd look into it. Yeah, right.

[BadgerDave]

I've done a ton of ¼" dados with my RIDGID TS and have never experienced the problem you described. The "shoulder" you talked about on my saw is at the exact same height as the top of the threaded portion of my arbor. If yours isn't, although I don't know what would cause it not to be, then I think you have a warranty claim.

[strong330]

I think you're right! I found old posts describing the exact problem that I have. Rigid sent free arbor replacements for the screwed up arbors. My second blade floats .030"! If they don't remidy this, it's going back. Other than that, seems like a great saw. Oh well!

[imported_MDEly1]

Hope they work it out for you. The product is usually good, its the customer support that this forum has pounded on the most. The oddest one was the guy who couldn't find a couple of the stand legs in the box and called cs. About 6mons later if I remember correctly he got his legs. He was okay though because he went back and looked in the package again and found them. I went with a Grizzly myself and have never looked back. I am considering the 1300ls planner currently.

[Sawdust Steve]

I have had my TS3650 for about 5 weeks now, and love it - except for one thing: DADO problem.

I agree 100% with Strong330 about the arbor problem. There is definitely a "recess" in the 5/8" arbor on mine too, about 1/8" out from the arbor flange. This recess is about 1/8" wide. The threaded portion of the arbor is a true 5/8" diameter, as is the 1/8" shoulder next to the arbor flange. This design has no effect on a single 10" saw blade, which sits on that 1/8" shoulder, but it sure affects the use of a stacked dado set. Any blade or chipper that lies over the recessed area will not line up true with the rest of the dado blades.

This amazed me, so I also called RIDGID support. They were immediately familiar with the problem, and said that the design was "inherited from Emerson", but that there was no plan in the works to change it. RIDGID suggests the use of a wobble dado set, or an adjustable set, like Freud makes. But a stackable dado set will not work right. To compound the issue, several on this forum have advised against the use of wobble dado sets.

To me, this is a major problem, as building bookshelves was a major reason that I purchased the saw. I had planned to make 3/4" dados on my saw. I realize I can make these with my router, but COME ON RIDGID! This is a major problem and oversight, and should be fixed.

I'm surprised by the number of people that say they have had no problems in using a stacked dado set. I even read a thread that indicated this design problem even existed on the TS2412. RIDGID must be changing designs back and forth.

I am open to any suggestions or information from anyone who knows about this issue. Bob Dueker, if you are out there, HELP!

[imported_wbrooks]

If it was me I would likely pack it up and return it but I also know you guys spent a good deal of time setting it up and the thing is heavy. Has anyone looked at the possibility of changing the mandrel? I don't own a 3650 but I thought I would toss out the idea for discussion

[strong330]

The service guys said all their arbors are the same-messed up ones. I'm a quality engineer for a large company. When we get a customer complaint, we jump through hoops to remidy the situation, no matter what!! Call the machine shop, change the print!! FIX THE PROBLEM!! I'm writing to Fine Woodworking Mag, (where I heard about this) and slamming Rigid. I am going to bring it back to Home Depot, partly assembled, enough to lighten the load, missing the box (already threw it out!), fence and leafs in a pile. What a dissapointment. I'm done with Rigid. The main reason I bought this saw was for dados.

[chestnutluver]

Thanks for the input, I was going to buy one of these to put into my shop. I have tho 2400ls I have been using in my shop and on site and am more than happy with it. I think will look at the Jet or Grizzly tablesaws for my shop.( I hear rumors that HD is going to start carring Delta has anyone else heard this?)

John

[imported_MDEly1]

Don't know if HD is going to carry Delta, but Lowes already does. BTW, Grizzly 444z is hard bargain to beat with a 2hp motor. It runs a stacked dado (probably any dado) as smooth as it runs a single blade.

[daveferg]

Gad----yes, Ridgid/Emerson had this problem to some extent or the other, including my old Emerson-built Craftsman. BUT, Emerson fixed the problem and when you bought a replacement arbor, it was properly dimensioned. It never ceases to amaze me that these new owners seem to be starting from scratch when it comes to problems, parts, etc. They were so insistant on replacing the highly rated 3612 and then use a flawed arbor design. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[tcaniff]

Yeah, I have a 3612 and have never had problem. Always wondered why the new model so soon. Seems the could have offered improvements to the 3612.

[Andy B.]

Back on The old Ts 2424 Ridgid had the same promblem.

[Andy B.]

Some of the old post. http://www.ridgidforum.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=001659#000000

[Lorax]

Originally posted by daveferg: They were so insistant on replacing the highly rated 3612 and then use a flawed arbor design. Dave,
If it was a design problem wouldn't they all be the same? There are many, many 3650 owners on this forum and only two have complained of this problem. I think it's more a matter of a few bad arbors made it past QC. I went out to the shop and checked my arbor. It measures .623"-.624" from the flange to the end. No dips, valleys, grooves, low spots, etc. etc. etc.

[ 12-02-2004, 09:38 PM: Message edited by: Lorax ]

[Sawdust Steve]

Now I'm really confused, Lorax. I was almost hoping that RIDGID tech support had not heard of this situation with the arbor, and might have sent me a new one; instead, they were immediately familiar with the situation, and, like I said, they told me they had inherited this design from Emerson, and there were no plans to change it.

It does not appear as such. It appears to be made this way on purpose, though I don't know for that reason. The area next to the shoulder by the flange is about 1/8" wide, and I'm assuming it's about .610" to .615" diameter. I'll put a caliper on it tomorrow.

I did run some 1/2" wide by 3/8" deep dados in red oak tonight. My stacked set had two 1/8" thick blades and two 1/8" thick chippers. This is a 6" dado set by Shopsmith that I have had for years, but have not used much. The dados it cut were pretty true. I could see a slight up-down-up-down pattern at the bottom of the dado joint, but no pronounced divot. Had the first chipper been 1/16" instead of 1/8" thick, it might have slid more on the recess.

All in all, the 3650 is a fine, strong, heavy, solid saw. It is well made, with good finish and tight tolerances. The runout on my arbor is .000" to .001". They have made improvements on previous models and, as I have said before, the positives greatly outweigh the negative(s).

[ 12-03-2004, 12:21 AM: Message edited by: Sawdust Steve ]

[daveferg]

Well, we have two people "reporting" the problem and they each got different answers. There's a surprise. :eek: I can imagine they had a QC problem---but the question is---how would they thread the shaft wrong but the nut still fits?

Gents---the answer is----we now know what happened to all those old defective arbor shafts of Emersons. :D :D :D

Anyway, bottom line---if they don't know how to solve the problem, obviously, that will take longer to get than a bandsaw riser. ;)

[strong330]

According to Rigid, I've called many times, ALL arbors are the same. They are FULLY aware of the problem, it's INHERENT to the design (not a onesy twosy QC thing), and it will not be changed. "A replacement arbor would have the same problem" according to them. A novice woodworker may not notice the problem, it's minimal, but annoying. (hence minimal posts, and how many saw owners actually post here???? Maybe 1%? The nut threads fine. The LOW spot is AFTER the threads end and the shoulder begins. It's an area BETWEEN where the threads end and the shoulder begins. (even if it was on the threads, the nut would thread fine, it's LOW, not high!) The saw will be returned tomorrow. PS-when I called Home depot to verify they'd take it back, the Rigid rep. was there! He EVEN knew about the problem!!!

[Lorax]

Originally posted by strong330: According to Rigid, ALL arbors are the same. it's INHERENT to the design A novice woodworker may not notice the problem Whoever you talked to at Ridgid is wrong! My arbor is not like yours (see my post above). I may be a novice woodworker, but I was a machinist for 25 years and if there was a problem with my saw, I would know it.

[Sawdust Steve]

I agree with Strong330's description of the problem. However, as I have said, for me, this does not justify returning the saw. But that is a personal decision, and I can certainly respect it.

Lorax, I fully believe that you and other owners have a "normal" arbor. I mentioned this fact again this morning when I spoke with RIDGID tech support. They hold to their claim that all of the TS3650's have this weird design that they inherited from Emerson. They guy said they would be more than happy to send me another arbor, but it would be like the one I have.

Support said they have actually only had "a couple" of phone complaints about this problem. One suggestion they had, which others here have written about, would be to manually square up the blade or chipper that sits over the recess with the other blade(s), and then tighten up the arbor bolt. That seems like a rather unscientific workaround to me.

The dado blades all seem to at least lie completely perpendicular to the arbor thread (i.e. parallel to the arbor flange). I have not seen any problem with a blade tilting in the dado set, as the pressure of the collar or the arbor nut makes all the blades square. I may take some photos this weekend, and post them. This is probably not a huge issue, but it may save some future owners some time.

[smashp]

The more I think about this, the larger a problem it becomes.

Because of this issue withe the recessed arbor area ( which my saw and my father both have) it really complicates alot of usefullness of a dado set on a table saw.

Its fine for shelves on a cabinet, but Rabbet, end dados, box joints, and tenon cutting arent exact or have issues.

I even tried my stack dado set on a Jet saw and the grove was completly flat. The problem isnt with my blades, it is definately with the saw.

And to the ridgid suggestion of Manually squaring up the chipper or blade over the recess.


at 4000 rpm im pretty sure that blade or chipper will slip.


This issue is easily fixable on the part of ridgid. they need to address it imediately.

Design flaw or known issues can be fixed.

[Mike3206]

There is no problems with my arbor on my 3612. IF indeed the design flaw was inherited, then it would be flawed on my machine as well. Does this mean I have a defect? I think not. A loose fitting blade is a safety hazard, and should be treated as such. Loose blades can slide around and enlarge the hole creating more potential for disaster. I have a feeling that the reps don't want to deal with the issue. One this is for sure though. If enough people complain, the problem will be taken care of. Perhaps the right people aren't in the loop.

[smashp]

just called and made a formal complaint.

Again, they are aware and emerson blah,blah,blah.

took my name,number and address though and will get back to me.

He did suggest the manual square up method, but after i made my reply that it will and could still slip, he did agree.

I suggest everyone to make a call, it takes 10 minutes and will be the only way to resolve this problem.

[Sawdust Steve]

I'll call again and complain. I'm just afraid that RIDGID tech support is about five layers removed from the engineers and production at OWT, the manufacturer.

Now if someone had a SAFETY ISSUE, and came close to being injured by kickback from a dado wedgey.... well, that would be something to turn some heads...

Still, I know a lot of you have no problems with your arbors, but I suspect there are more of us with "defective" arbors than RIDGID realizes. I, for one, am going public with my cause...

[strong330]

KEEP 'EM COMIN GUYS (and Gals)!! LET'S GET EVERYONE TO COME OUT OF THE WOODWORK (no pun intended) I knew I wasn't the only one!! Thanks for the support!!

[imported_MDEly1]

Is there any way to get a sleeve on there? I know it would be thin but if it could be mounted on there it could level the problem out.

[daveferg]

I agree with Lorax----Strong, whoever you talked to doesn't know what they are talking about. The problem was fixed by Emerson. My old Craftsman had the problem. When I replaced the arbor assembly (due to bearings) the new arbor shaft no longer had the problem. So, there is a fix, and as Lorax indicated----it's likely a QC problem with whatever machine they're using to mill/thread the arbor shaft.

But, bottom line, if you're getting this "we can't fix it" response now, I seriously doubt you'll be getting any help in the foreseeable future. Either live with it or pack it up and take it back----there is supposed to be a 60 or 90 day satisfaction guarenteed period.

While none of the dado joints I cut with the old arbor ever came apart, can't say they look the greatest either.

BTW----just looking through a flyer last night. Both Delta and General have bumped up prices on their stationary tools (either due to steel prices or dollar's decline). Griz' catalog shows no increases---yet. The Genaral saw I mentioned before is up to $700 from 650.

[Sawdust Steve]

This may turn out to be the longest thread ever on this forum, but if it culminates in a victory for the "little guy" (didn't mean you, Strong330), it will have been worth it. I called the company that does RIDGID's press releases. They said they would pass this info along to the product manager for this saw, but they would not give me his name. (Gee, no surprise there.)

I'm going to ask my HD buddy/salesman for the name of the local RIDGID rep. Maybe that will lead to something. Yes, Daveferg, I am in that 90-day period, but just the time I have spent setting up and aligning this baby is worth more than what I paid for the saw.

I know I need to decide one way or the other, and for my part, I know I will probably keep the saw. BTW, if RIDGID does come up with the correct arbor, and sends it to me, is this a fairly easy assembly for me to secure it in line, and have low runout specs like I have with the "factory setting"?

[ 12-03-2004, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: Sawdust Steve ]

[daveferg]

Steve---it's obviously your call, but all your alignment time will go down the tubes. Unless you have the equipment to pull bearings, you'll likely have to remove the entire saw assembly to get to the arbor assembly. Having done this, if you've worked on cars or have an average mechanical appitude, it's not a terrible process---you just have to pay attention to how it's done and reassemble accordingly. Believe me, it's much easier to take out the saw assembly than to try to work upside down under the saw.

Not trying to scare people away from this, but it isn't a simple issue and of course, this assumes that they even have a correct arbor. I've never been one to believe a customer should have to go through this type of literally standing on your head for something you paid top dollar for.

[Lorax]

Originally posted by daveferg:
I agree with Lorax---- Just heard on The Weather Channel that today at exactly 1:09 PM the temperature in Hell reached +32f. :eek: Yes folks, Hell has officially frozen over and it's all the Fergs fault! tongue.gif

[Sawdust Steve]

The city of Houston has an ordinance that prohibits working on the underside of a table saw.

On another note, I just heard on CNN where the Texas legislature passed a bill today banning the creation of dado joints on table saws, as they are considered unsafe.

More on this breaking story as it develops...

[ 12-03-2004, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: Sawdust Steve ]

[daveferg]

Let's see----he77 freezing, Texas voting for something "safe"---gad, I'm wearing a hard hat if I leave the house. :eek: :eek: ;)

[imported_Bob D.]

Everyone remember the long thread about the Emerson(Craftsman) Radial Arm Saw recall?

Well, I'd bet that if a bunch of people start contacting the CSPC in addition to Ridgid then something will happen.

Let's hope this is not like getting a traffic light installed at a busy intersection, where it takes so many deaths before the intersection is considered 'worthy' of a traffic light.

Here's the link to the CSPC to log complaints.
http://www.cpsc.gov/talk.html
Consumer Product Safety Commission - Report Unsafe Products (http://www.cpsc.gov/talk.html)

Federal Court Upholds Reporting Requirement for Companies

The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) is announcing a major court victory that upholds one of CPSC’s most potent weapons: the requirement for companies to report dangers and defects with consumer products to the government in a timely manner. The court ruled unanimously that companies who fail to abide by the reporting requirement can be held liable to pay substantial civil penalties.

Federal Court Upholds Reporting Requirement for Companies (http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml05/05033.html)

[ 12-03-2004, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: Bob D. ]

[Sawdust Steve]

Hey guys. I just got a call from the director of sales at TTI/One World Technologies in Carolina. He had two other gentlemen from TTI in the room with him, including the product manager, on the speakerphone. It seems that the public relations firm forwarded my concerns to them.

They had a copy of an arbor with them, and saw exactly what some of us have been talking about. I told him that this kind of problem, with the inability to offer a solution, can lead to bad press for them, and that people do read the threads on these forums - not all people, but some do read them, and form opinions.

The guys said they were actually not aware of the design flaw until I brought it to their attention, and they are going to work on a fix, with free "correct" arbors to be sent out to those in need.

I suggested they might even want to visit our humble forum and post a comment of their own. Don't know that they will; they said they do read the forums regularly, but try not to interfere to often with the consumers.

In any event, as I am writing this, I got an email response from the TTI RIDGID team:

Steve,

Thank you again for the information. Customers like you are very valuable to us, and we look forward to hearing more from you in the future. For your reference, you were speaking with the following:

Kevin Cameron - Director of Sales, Professional Power Tools
Steve Steadings - Director of Product Development
Ernie Swords - Director of Customer Service

Thank you again, and we appreciate your continued support.

Kevin Cameron
Director of Sales, TTI - Professional Power Tools
864-332-5678
Guys, at least our voices are being heard, and now we have some names at the company, should we have future concerns. I commend them on their involvement; it shows me that they do care about putting quality products into the hands of consumers.

[imported_Bob D.]

I've had my TS3650 just short of a year now, but I will be checking out my arbor closely because I have noticed less than acceptable results when cutting dados in the narrower range. Hopefully they (Ridgid/TTI/OWT) will offer a replacement arbor that is slightly longer so the full width of most dado sets can be utilized. Since the is now a shown need to replace the current arbor, why not 'upgrade' the Table Saw to a more useful arbor at the same time and make that the standard arbor going forward on all the TS3650 saws.

[daveferg]

Bob---wouldn't hold my breath---besides, there may be other issues if they expanded the length.

Steve---very impressive. Hey, maybe there's hope for these guys. If they're willing to try---that deserves credit.

While they're not the only ones doing this, but you know, if they hadn't been so gung-ho on clearing the decks or not bringing anyone on board from the old Ridgid---someone could have told them of the old problem.

As I said earlier----the saw will work---it just cuts crumby dados. In fact, before I changed my arbor, I got so I'd get a better job from a wobble dado, and that ain't no great option. ;)

[strong330]

OK GUYS, now we're hitting them from every angle. I received a response from the author of the TS3650 review from Fine Woodworking Mag. See below...


I'm the shop manager of Fine Woodworking and the author of the review of the Ridgid saw. Your e-mail about the saw's arbor problem was forwarded to me.

First of all, you are right, there is a flaw with the arbor on at least some of these saws and I failed to notice it on the saw we reviewed. To be honest I have never seen this on another saw and never thought to check it.
In the future, of course, we will check this on any table saw.

I called Ridgid this morning and one of their engineers called me back this
afternoon. We discussed the problem and my impression is that they are
truly interested in correcting the fault and will replace the arbor under warranty, although this will take some time since new parts will need to be manufactured. I will keep you informed of progress and I am told we will probably discuss the problem in an upcoming issue of the magazine.

In the mean time, I am experimenting with a fix that I believe will work.
I will be back to you after the weekend to explain the fix and to let you know what Ridgid says.

Sincerely,

John White

SAWDUST STEVE!! Thank you for getting on board with me! I think we're going to nip this one in the bud. Also wouldn't mind an ediorial in the next issue!! Looks like help may be on the way. I will hold onto the saw for another week or so. Unfortunately it took way too many phone calls, and posts to get some results. One call should have done it if you ask me. ANYWAY, thanks for your persistance Steve.

PS- I stopped at home depot on the way home tonight. I took apart their floor model. (no one even questioned me!) Guess what?? SAME PROBLEM!!!!!!!!

[daveferg]

Strong----getting FWW involved is probably the best thing that could have been done---even if they never write a word---it's pressure.

At to the problem being solve----all the current Ridgid people have to do is go back to Emerson and beg for some of those spare parts they obviously turned their noses up at before. You wouldn't believe how good my dados are now---with an Emerson made part to correct the original problem.

BTW---du ya think Ridgid might start paying attention to this forum now??? ;)

[Sawdust Steve]

Actually DaveFerg, as far as an entry in our Forum, I think we might expect to see something from the group I spoke with perhaps early next week.

Thank all of you who have supported me and answered a bunch of questions. I am returning to woodworking as a hobby after dabbling with my Shopsmith years ago. What a joy to have a "real" table saw now. I'll still keep the Shopsmith for other operations, as it is in mint condition, and still does a good shop for drilling, boring, lathe, sanding, small band saw operations etc.

I plan to buy the JP0610 jointer this weekend, as that is the 2nd weakest part of the Shopsmith. Thanks again, all. After a lot of "taking" from several of you, I hope I have been able to give a little back.

[travis]

I remember this from a couple years back with my 2424... I quit woodworking for a while and just started up again two weeks ago... I am wondering if I have this same issue. Does anyone have a photo of what to look for?
Thanks - Travis

[daveferg]

Travis----you couldn't tell it by eye. You might try calipers.

[smashp]

this is great news. I really think this i a good move on ridgid part. The 3650, even though it isnt ridgid largest selling item by volume, is kinda like the " king" of their product line of power tools. It is in the forefront at all Home depots to just show the Quality of ridgid's tool line. I own alot of ridgid tools and love them all, but i will say the largest concerns I have had about any of them is service, customer support, and their ability to hold up. a speedy fix on the part of Ridgid will actually give me more faith in their product line and really sell me on other products they sell ( such as the jointer and drill press ive been eying). Even though they ran into a problem, The ability to remedy the problem is actually more important.

by the way contacting FW was a great decision, that i was thinking about yesterday.

Industry pressure would be much more effective.

If they publish an article about this problem with the saw, but can also say how quickly ridgid fixed it, it could be a positive for ridgid.

[strong330]

Calipers really are not necessary to detect this condition. Take the large nut off. (I checked another one at home depot yesterday,same problem) You'll notice that a single blade, fully inserted on the arbor will sit snugly on the shoulder to the left. If you move it to the right 1/8" (as if to take it off) it will suddenly fall off the shoulder and become extremely loose on the arbor. You'll be able to lift the blade up and down on the arbor. There's the problem! You can also visually see it. On mine it's obvioulsy about .040" smaller. (almost .080" in diameter!) It also seems that the threads go from a silver color, to black in this "void". Hope that helps.

[hewood]

Saw Steve and Strong330 - I applaud you guys for bringing this issue to light...there are those who presumed you were just trolling.

Unless I missed something about this discussion, it appears that Ridgid knew of the arbor problem and chose to ignore it prior to this. If they were really concerned about quality and customer service, this would have been remedied much sooner, and not in response to public outcry on the internet that included a response from a heavyweight magazine. Any business will make an effort to come clean while being investigated, it's those businesses that are proactive and forthright about problems that make for the best long term suppliers for consumers. My guess it would have been cheaper to fix as soon as they knew. :(

[daveferg]

hewood----it's hard to say what they know, since there were two different answers, but I do find it hard to believe that there wasn't someone checking tolerances. What kills me the most is that Emerson found and fixed this problem, yet here it is again. OWT insisted on a complete re-design of the Ridgid table saw, yet managed to retain an old flaw. I'm not being critical of OWT, just how do you manage to screw up that badly????

[looseknot]

Just went down to the shop and checked out my arbor. It appears as though I have an undercut in the thread near the flange. How bad I don't know. I didn't have a caliper handy. What number are you guys calling to complain?

[Sawdust Steve]

Hey guys. Glad you found us here on "Page 2". This has been a lengthy post, but I think a significant one for several of the reasons that many of you have stated.

Travis, I have tried to upload a representative photo that I just took of the arbor.

http://www.firstteach.com/ridgid/ts3650arbor.jpg

I think you can see here that there is a shoulder, about 1/8" wide, right next to the flange, and it is exactly .625" diameter, as is most of my arbor. But the area just to the right of that shoulder is the same diameter as the valley or bottom of the threads. It is definitely lower. It actually is threaded, so it is a little harder to measure, but my micrometer does show this recess to measure about .610" diameter. In other words, the diameter at the recess is about 1/64" less than the rest of the arbor. Strong330 got different readings on his, but we may both be correct. Hope this helps.

Oh, and Hewood - thank you for the compliment ... I think. But Saw Steve and Strong330 - I applaud you guys for bringing this issue to light...there are those who presumed you were just trolling. Come now. You cut me to the quick! :D

By the way, Hewood. two comments:

</font> It's actually Sawdust Steve, not Saw Steve. Actually, since I have been doing more measuring than cutting lately, my wife is wondering when Saw Steve will become Sawdust Steve.</font> You have had many posts on these forums, and I wanted to let you know that I have several to be beneficial to me. So I guess you can call me what you will. LOL</font>

[ 12-04-2004, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: Sawdust Steve ]

[hewood]

Sawdust Steve said: Oh, and Hewood - thank you for the compliment ... I think. Definitely intended as a compliment! Especially for your tenacity with contacting people with influence who can make a difference....like John White for example. (sorry if it came across differently than intended)

[daveferg]

Saw "dust" Steve----great picture! You got just the right light to show the difference in machining.

Hewood was probably remember a time here, when anyone who dared say anything negitive was raked over the coals. ;)

Good luck to you on this----you and Strong have to keep us updated.

[looseknot]

Great picture Steve. The more I look at that picture, it looks like the "undercut" might have been intentional. This is common practice in some machining operations to reduce the problem of deburring after certain threading operations. This might be the reason the problem is showing up again after Emerson fixed it. Deburring might have surfaced as a problem to the new management and they "fixed" it by introducing the undercut without knowing the Emerson problem.
Just a thought.

[strong330]

Ditto on the pic Steve. Exactly what I see on mine. As for my measurements, it was difficult to get my calipers to read accurately, being an akward angle, and a "messy" threaded-void kind of area. The sharp edge of my caliper jaws most likely measured the thread valleys, rather than the crests. Eitherway, you can visually see the diam. difference in your picture. Nice job.

[Sawdust Steve]

No, Hewood, I definitely took it as a compliment. ;)

I'm glad you guys liked the photo; I think it shows the way the arbor looks, and I agree that it may well be intentional. Unfortunately, fixing one operation in milling may have created another in actual use.

I would also like to see an improved arbor that is longer, as some of you have commented. Again, there may be some reason (less dado runout?) why RIDGID chose this shorter length.

[Mike3206]

Good photo. I now see exactly what the problems may be. It seems as though the problem isn't extra machining, but that the threads end too early and leave a little gap.

I will be checking my saw soon enough, but so far, I have never seen any dado problems, and since I use blade stiffeners, the blade would have a chance to drop into this void every time I put a blade on.

As evidence by the comments about phone calls from Ridgid execs, it is apparent that they did not know. it is most likely that some service rep did not pass on info or was just plain lazy. FWW getting involved will get a fast response as will filing a complaint to the proper government agancy. In fact, if calls are documented, you can bet someone will be looking for a job.

[rgrady]

I have had my 3650 for almost a year. I just checked mine by putting the two outside cutters on my Freud dado and there is some slop on the second blade. I don,t have calipers but it moves approx. 1/32". I will be contacting Ridgid about this MAJOR safety issue. Something spinning that fast that is not perfectly balanced could be very serious.

[daveferg]

Some of you other 3650 owners should compare yours to the picture. As I said, mine had the problem on the original Craftsman saw---just checked the replacement arbor and there's no undercut where the thread ends. It is hard getting calipers in there, but you can get the general idea.

As to dados---getting 13/16" is about the norm----you don't need to use the washer--just the nut, but a longer shaft would likely require upgrading of bearings or sleeve, etc. Those 8" sets get pretty darned heavy.

[Teri]

Am I the only one who is having issues with the measuring on the fence guide? My cuts were off, and after adjusting the measuring idicator several times I thought I would check the saw itself, and it is off, some numbers as much as 1/32 of an inch. I went to two Home Depots tonight hoping mine was bad and both stores were the same as mine. I had them open up a new box, and it was no different. I love this table saw but don't know what to do about replacing the measuring strip. Seems it is a manufacturing problem.

[hewood]

Teri said: I love this table saw but don't know what to do about replacing the measuring strip. Teri - There are replacement measuring tapes for saws available at many wwing stores...Woodcraft, Rockler, Hartville Tool, or maybe even a local independent. They're usually reasonably priced....~ $10

[Sawdust Steve]

Teri, I responded to your other post about the ruler in this Forum. I agree with Hewood; if the rule is off, there are others you can buy and replace it with, and it's an easy, cheap fix. Of course, it shouldn't be off, but we know here that anything is possible.

While you are in this thread (and it's a long one!), you might want to read about and be aware of the potential arbor problem with the TS3650, and what is being done about it.

Congrats on your saw, and welcome to the forum.

[daveferg]

Not to drag this thread down another road, but as to measuring----before you depend on ANY tape or device, check it against a known standard. I was using a straight edge (that was ruled) to mark up some grid lines on poster board for some furniture project patterns. As I'm fine-tuning the drawing, I check the grid size and find the whole thing is off by a 3/32nds on each square, due to the inaccuracy of the straight edge.

As to tapes on the table saw---I never depend on them----there's a rule in woodworking---use one tape measure for the whole project, and for the minimum time it takes to put a tape between blade and fence, it will save you greif later.

[Andrew M.]

I have the same problem,next to the flange and black thread measuring 0.608,then a range of 0.0618 to 0.624. depending where you measure.

I had used a cheap dado set when I first got the saw and thought it was the set causing a grove in the dado cut. I then bought a Freud SD208 but have not use it yet. I just was going to start a project with it but now I can not.
I had the motor fan screw problem, and the legs still flex some even after adding washers and better hardware. I am not pleased to say the least. I called the HD mgr. and he said to call on Mon. and they will check with Ridgid as what to do. First thing I WILL BE ON THE PHONE! This is not acceptable and a safety issue.

If you do not have a caliper, stack some cir. saw blades and you will see the problem.

They said they would get back to me on the leg/stand fix, that was over 6 months ago,still no reply.

Not what I expected from Ridgid.

My tape measure is accurate though ?

[ 12-05-2004, 06:24 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Benedetto ]

[Sgt Beavis]

I hadn't noticed any problems making dados but after reading this thread and the one on Woodnet, I think I'll have to go have a look at the arbor tomorrow.

If that flaw exists, I'll be using that as my excuse to upgrade. There's a guy in Frisco with a Jet cabinet saw for sale :D

[smashp]

Hey I had a 3/16 thick washer machined and use it against the arbor flange and then stacked my 1/4 -1/2 stack after it. Problem goes away and allows me to make box joints atleast for now. Still want a real fix rather than filling the divot with jb weld and filing it down.

[imported_Knot Me]

smashp - The washer sounds like a good idea. I wondered if something like that would work, but thought finding a washer with a 5/8" inside hole would be hard to find...never thought about having one machined. I'll bet a dado shim set would work too.

[Sawdust Steve]

And don't forget, guys - The gentleman at Fine Woodworking who wrote the original review indicated that he would get back to Strong330 or even post his proposed workaround as early as today (12/06/04).

[ 12-06-2004, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: Sawdust Steve ]

[imported_wbrooks]

If a shim will do it for you guys for now how about a set of blade stiffeners. They will be useful even when the arbor is fixed. One example
Blade Stiffener (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?SID=&ccurrency=1&page=30075&category=1,41080,41162)
http://www.leevalley.com/images/item/woodworking/powertool/16t0101s1.jpg

[strong330]

I've not yet heard from John White (WW Mag.) but I will keep you all posted when I do.

I did however hear from Ernie Swords, I forget his exact title but he was Sr. Mgr. Level Cust. Service from Rigid. (yes, they actually called me!)

They are aggressively woking on a fix. They guaranteed me that it is coming and not to return the saw, no matter if the 90 period expires from HD or not, which will not apply in this case.

He personally read our thread and was greatful that we are "sounding off" about our findings. He said they will most likely post an update (asap) in this thread to fill us in on their investigation.

[imported_MDEly1]

Glad they are fixing it. Wonder if they will see the other threads about the arbor being too short for some dado blades and will make that repair at the same time. ; >

[Sawdust Steve]

Hey Strong. According to the email I got, Ernie is the Director of Customer Service.

Wbrooks, blade stiffeners might work well with a 10" saw blade, as they are thick enough to move the blade past the "groove". Were you talking about using stiffeners with a dado set?

I was thinking about a pair of stiffeners for my RIDGID/Freud thin kerf blades. It has nothing to do with our arbor problem, but here is a question for you guys:

Using a dial gauge, I have a blade that is parallel to the miter slot within .001". The combined arbor/blade runout is less than .004". If I tighten the arbor nut more than the finger tight or lightly tightened that I use for aligning, then the runout increases to .006" to .008". Any thoughts on this? Is this fairly common with many saws? The guy at Woodcraft wants to tell me that I would not see that problem if I had bought a Delta, but then, he wants to sell Deltas.

P.S. Sorry for using our sacred "arbor thread" for another question, but it was sort of related, and I didn't think y'all would mind. ;)

[ 12-06-2004, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: Sawdust Steve ]

[strong330]

Everyone, John White has responded, and it sounds like a good temp. solution until Rigid can get the perm. fix in place. See below, and cudos to Fine Woodworking!
Here's a solution to your saw's arbor problem that I tested on the Ridgid saw here in the shop. Basically, I filled the necked down area of the arbor with epoxy and then used a file to dress down the epoxy as the arbor was spun by the saw's motor.

Start out by thoroughly cleaning the area to be filled. I used naphtha and a small brass brush followed by a second wipe down with naphtha on a paper towel. If you didn't get all the grease and oil off of the shaft it will show up on the towel and you'll know you need to keep cleaning. I used naphtha because it evaporates in just a minute or two and doesn't attack plastics or paint, alcohol would also work.

For epoxy, I used J-B Kwik Weld which sets up in just a few minutes and achieves full strength in four hours. J-B weld is available in most hardware stores and at least some Home Depots. If you can't find J-B brand, any epoxy meant for use on metal will probably work, as long as it isn't too thin when mixed. J-B has just the right consistency, about like tooth paste. It is liquid enough to work into the rough spots on the arbor, but thick enough not to drip.

I applied the epoxy with a tooth pick, filling up the low area of the arbor and working the epoxy just slightly into the start of the threaded section.
Use the epoxy to build up the low area until it is slightly higher than the threaded part of the arbor. Once the epoxy is in place, let it set for at least a few hours before filing it down.

To smooth the epoxy, I used a moderately coarse flat file to remove the bulk of the material and a fine file for the final touch up. The epoxy will clog the teeth of a file so you'll need a small metal brush to clean out the file's teeth. To protect the flange's face as you work, the files will need what are called safe edges. If you don't have a file with safe edges you can take an ordinary file and grind the teeth off of its edges to make it into a safe edge file.

To file down the epoxy, start the saw and gently hold the coarser file against both the shaft and the face of the flange. Move the file with a forward stroking motion to prevent the rapid clogging that would occur if you held the file still. After a couple of forward strokes, stop the saw to check your progress and to clean out the file's teeth. After a minute or two, and a dozen or so passes, you should have the epoxy down almost to the level of the shaft all of way around. Now switch to the fine file to finish the job. You'll only need to use very light pressure on the files, so there is no risk of cutting into the shaft and reducing its diameter.

After doing this to the saw we have here, I used a dado set to cut 10 feet of grooves into a maple plank. When I removed the dado blades after completing the cut, the epoxy was still solid and unmarked, so I don't think there will be a problem with it wearing out.

Let me know if this solves your problem and feel free to ask if something isn't clear. I will let you know what we hear from Ridgid.

Sincerely,

John White

[daveferg]

Strong---without running downstairs and looking----you mean the epoxy won't get in the way of the nut for an ordinary blade? I'm thinking it shouldn't, what with the raised part of the arbor washer. John White deserves a big round of appaluase.

Steve----have you checked the runout on the arbor flange and the nut?

[strong330]

Shouldn't. It should just fill in the void where the second blade would sit.

[Sawdust Steve]

Good stuff Strong! Thanks for YOUR persistence! I thought about epoxy, or something like that. I'm glad you have tried and tested it. Don't know how you did it, but my only comment is that I would stand BEHIND the saw as I filed; this seems a lot safer if you are placing the file surface on top of the arbor.

Daveferg, I think a single saw blade should do fine. The overall thickness of the removable arbor flange seems great enough to span that entire area, leaving the threaded area for the nut to tighten on.

As to my question about the runout, Daveferg, I'm not quite sure what you mean about checking the runout on the arbor flange and the nut. Do you mean the fixed flange?

I bought the A-Line-It alignment kit. In addition to reading the fixed arbor flange directly, one of the things it lets you do is check arbor runout as well as the effect of the arbor on the blade. It does this by letting you replace the normal removable flange and nut with a spring-loaded machined aluminum nut (like a giant acorn nut) that tightens to the arbor. The spring presses against the blade, holding it tight to the fixed arbor flange. But it is not too tight, so you can actually rotate the blade slowly while holding the arbor still, or vice versa. This way, you can really see the cause of the runout.

In this setup, while using my dial gauge, I can find the best combination of arbor and blade position. The runout reading is quite low - maybe .002" - .003" combined. Then I replace the spring nut with my regular flange and nut. If I tighten the nut snug, but not too tight, my readings stay about the same. But if I tighten it really good, my runout increases by maybe .004" - .005" more.

I did not realize that tightening the arbor nut a lot increases runout. Hence, I am thinking about blade stiffeners.

[daveferg]

Steve--what I was thinking that if there was any irregular part of the fixed flang, it could tweek the blade as you tightened it. In Mark Duginske's book, Mastering Woodworking Machines, he shows how to check runout on the fixed flang. The washer should be flattened perpendicular to the shaft hole.

As to tightening, once you snug the nut finger tight, you really only need 1/8th of a wrench turn----or, I use a piece of scrap hardwood about 12" l x 3/4 t x 1 1/2" w----slip it down behind or in front of the blade (loosening or tightening) and lever it against the blade and tighten untl the blade slips on the wood.

[smashp]

Still want a real fix rather than filling the divot with jb weld and filing it downdidnt I Post this earlier. It will Work, but.........


This was the solution that many of the Former emerson Saw owners came up with years ago.

just be carefull in doing this, as you dont want to fix the problem with thi frst chipper and relocate it to the second by filing too much, or even worse being unable to tighten the Arbor for a single blade.

[strong330]

Folks, please don't get me wrong...I have not tried this yet! This was the temp. solution from John White.

I have all the same concerns as you! It is worth a try, and allot easier than welding and machining, at least for me. Metalworking is not my strong point!

If anyone beats me to the experiment, please let us know how it turns out.

[rgrady]

Question? Who here feels that a blade spinning off-center at 3450 RPM's is a safety issue? Got an e-mail from Ridgid today saying that this is not a safety issue.

[daveferg]

rgrady---what do you mean spinning off center? Give us a few details. This epoxy fix shouldn't affect the blade seating or are your refering to a dado chipper flapping around over the imfamous divot? ;)

Honestly, unless the depression is greater than most reported, I don't think it's a safety problem, since it's unlikely the chipper over the divot is moving---reason being, it sits flush against other chippers and there is compression from the arbor nut. If after using the dado, you saw scrape marks or wear on the arbor hole, it's unlikely it was moving. I had my dado set running on a bad arbor for years and never saw any damage to the arbor or the chippers-----just go crumby dados.

BTW guys----a while back, someone mentioned that the 3650 manual recommended a wobble dado----if this is true, in all honesty, it sounds suspicious to me. Any seasoned ww'r can tell you that a wobble dado gives a rounded dado botttom and isn't preferred. This "may" be an indication, as was pointed out, that they knew of the problem.

[rgrady]

Dave, thanks for the reply. I have worked around a lot of rotating equipment in my career (pumps, fans etc) and if not set properly will vibrate themselves apart. Thus my concern with something rotating off-center in the thread depression. I have read your posts on this forum and respect your opinions on things. This was just a concern of mine. I have had my 3650 for a year now and have had no regrets or concerns about it untill now ( in spite of the numerous negative posts about Ridgid). I tend to form my own opinions from my experience. I will refrain from making 1/4" dados with my saw untill Ridgid comes up with a fix. Not to keen on the JB weld temporary fix. Thanks again for the input.

[Sawdust Steve]

Daveferg -- first of all thanks for the arbor-tightening tip. I have probably been tightening the nut a little too much. 1/8th turn beyond finger tight sounds good. I think other brands might show a little more flex and runout if you get the nut too tight, as well.

I also agree with your observations about the safety issue. First, even if a blade were sitting in this small recess, it is not going to spin free, as it is being held tight between the flanges, or, if it is dado chipper, it is also being held tight. Even a chipper that is "straddling" the recess is going to be held perpendicular to the arbor by the sheer pressure on it from the sides.

One last comment - On wobble dados, it depends on whom you ask at RIDGID. Tech support seems to favor the wobble dado, because this helps render the arbor recess more of a non-issue. But the higher-ups that I talked to, like the production or sales managers, will tell you that a good stacked set is the way to go.

I think this has been an informative and useful thread on a few levels, but I really have not viewed this as a safety issue. This is about a 1/64" offset, not a 1" offset. From the standpoint of the cosmetics of the cuts, yes, it needs to be improved, but at least on my saw, from my point of view, I do not have a safety issue. I think we need to get back to making sawdust. This is still a really fine saw.

[daveferg]

Steve---have to agree---it's been a productive thread. Don't let down on your efforts---bottom line---you deserve a replacement arbor.

As to safety----believe me---if it was a safety issue, I'd be the first to speak up----I'm a safety consultant. ;)

Glad you're happy with the saw----I haven't been a big supporter, as I felt OWT was too eager to drop the 3612, and one thing is for sure, while they made some improvements, they also made a bunch more different mistakes. The thing I appreciated about Emerson was they were always improving the original design (like the one I have).

But the good news, thanks to you and others, is that they're going to take another look at the mistakes. Good going.

[Alan J.]

Just for reference here is a picture of the arbor on my TS3612 ...

http://www2.netdoor.com/~hjones/images/arbor.jpg
... no variation on the thread to shoulder.

[daveferg]

Yep---my 1989 Craftsman (with replacement) looks pretty much the same. Heck---we even seem to have the same sawdust. ;)

[Hergy]

This is by no means a new problem (ARBOR). Check this post out from 2001 on a 2412.

http://www.ridgidforum.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000074#000007

More importantly check out the reply from Jake Schnarre who was the company rep (and also very active in the forum). He identified the exact cause of the problem. By the way, does anybody from Ridgid ever reply to anything on this forum? Apparently the "new Ridgid" has a different approach. I have a 2424 and was fortunate not to have the bad arbor problem. I suspect somebody probably found boxes full of arbors and decided to use up a little dead inventory. If Ridgid wants to play with the Big Boys i.e. DeWalt, PC etc. they are going to have to be a bit more responsive to customers. It would be a cold day in he77 before I would be applying JB weld or epoxy to remedy an obvious manufacturing defect.

[daveferg]

Hergy---interesting. Gad----how we miss Jake. Frankly, though, I have my doubts that the new company kept any of the old inventory. Did you notice how there suddenly became a shortage of bandsaw risers when they took over. :rolleyes:

I'd be interested to know if the old Emerson built Craftsman replacement arbor housing would still fit any Ridgid models----they have it for $65.

[strong330]

Well, I have to give Rigid a little credit. They overnighted me a replacement arbor that, they claimed, did not exhibit "as drastic" of a void as mine. They claimed that it was only .008" off vs. my .030". It's identically as bad. I don't know, maybe my blades are thinner (they measure .075 in thickness)but the second blade sits right in the void and will shift at least 1/16" side to side. Possibly they measured the partial thread and used that as their diameter, but my cutter sits right inside the thread (in the valley) and is pretty sloppy. Now I have two bad arbors... one will make a good prototype for the epoxy I guess. Come on Rigid, let's get going on the fix here!!

[Andrew M.]

http://www.bt3central.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15376

I give up. If I ran my business like this I would be unemployed.

[daveferg]

Amen Andrew! I think the reason I have this feeling towards the TWO Ridgid----I once worked for a great company---they were focused, had slow and steady growth and didn't make stupid mistakes. Then they merged with another company which had previously almost gone out of business----we adopted all their bad habits/policies----my great employer went from $64/share to $1.50/share and finally sold out for peanuts. Sometimes you wonder why we bother having thousands of business schools----no one seems to learn anything.

[smashp]

bumping this thread. Still awaiting a real solution from Ridgid. looking for a timeframe to get replacement arbors.

[imported_Bob D.]

On 12/02/04 Lorax asked;

"Dave,
If it was a design problem wouldn't they all be the same?..."

I say probably not as there is surely more than one machine churning out this part. Maybe only one of them is not setup correctly or has a few lines of incorrect/corrupted machine code which is causing this one machine to turn out the bad arbors.

If the above were true, then only some saws would have the bad arbor. Depending on how the parts progress down the asembly line, this may occur every nTH time or randomly if the (2/3/4 or however many) machines making the arbors all dump their combined output into a common bin/hopper that feeds one point in the assembly process where the arbor is installed as the saw is built.

[smashp]

bump for lack of update from ridgid.

[daveferg]

Bob D.---it's almost impossible to know. I've seen non-CNC machines that can make simple parts and even though they were automated, they still needed someone to babysit them to make sure they were maintaining specs. (I did something like this in a shutter factory). And then, of course, there's the QC/inspection issue or lack of same.

Guess we can sort of forgive Ridgid's lack of response (even though promised) during the holidays, but the clock should be started up again next Monday. ;)

[Chuck-what]

Just got finished with the John White epoxy fix for the arbor problem and found it to be acceptable and fairly easy to do. I do not relish changing the arbor in my saw if and when Ridgid decides to do something and since I had invested in a Freud Stack cutter a few years ago I wasn't about to get a wobble (had one once they are awlful). Since I have only had the saw put together for about a month I am still in the exploring phase and when the arbor fiasco came about I was quite upset. Stack Dado's are the only way to go and Ridgid should know that if the are serious about wood working and the tools required for it. The epoxy fix does look like it should last assuming the epoxy doesn't break down. There shouldn't be and stress on it once the blades are tightened down. Time will tell.

[keith911]

Hey Chuck glad to hear the epoxy worked but i do not think you should have had to do that with a new machine, i do believe ridgid will take care of the problem, when? who knows, soon i hope

Keith

[Cuj0HD]

Originally posted by Sgt Beavis:
If that flaw exists, I'll be using that as my excuse to upgrade. There's a guy in Frisco with a Jet cabinet saw for sale :D Let me know if you decide to sell the Ridgid. I'm in the market for a new saw and since HD doesn't give us employee discounts then I would be interested in buying a good used one.

[flstnhd]

This was posted yesterday on Woodnet.net. The link will take you to the thread itself.

Ridgid 3650
#1311848 - 12/30/04 04:17 PM

"Just got word today that ridgid has the new arbors in and are distributing them at this time to all 3650 owners"

woodnet (http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB2&Number=1311848&Forum=f2&Words=ridgid%20arbor&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=1311848&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=&daterange=1&newerval=1&newertype=m&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post1311848)

[daveferg]

Rob---I'm sorry---but the Woodnet post is from Keith, who's been saying the same thing here. Keith is a bulldog and I have no doubt he's calling Ridgid all the time, but why the heck haven't they posted anything here---as they promised----why hasn't anyone else heard the same thing. Personally, I think the guy Keith is talking to is blowing smoke. I'd be happy to be proven wrong----I've had this problem and know how annoying it is to have crumby dados----but can't say much for the way Ridgid is doing the PR on this thing.

[flstnhd]

Dave, I thought it funny too. After reading it the first place I went was here to see if Ridgid or anyone here had posted anything.But found nothing. After having my saw for over a year now and reading about the arbor issues before, I did finally check mine yesterday and it is reduced in that area.I have a cheap HF dado that I hadn't used becaue I use my router or router table. I did put the set on and cut some dados and my only problem was the two outside edges were a bit "pointy" (if that makes any sense).This I think was because thats how the teeth on the outside blades are shaped. Anywho,just thought I'd share something I had seen on another forum and see if anyonehere had heard the same.I know many have been trying to get this resolved.

[keith911]

Happy new years Dave, I would say they are blowing smoke if i called them, but this Larry Snyder called me yesterday at 1:30pm to confirm my address, and as far as calling them- yes every day or 2, lets just say i do not mind being a thorn in there side, he said that the new arbor went out yesterday, 1 to me and 1 to strong and he did mention a few other names from this site, that being said I guess strong and myself will let you know if it was a smoke screen or not

Happy New Years
Keith

[daveferg]

Rob---yeah---cheap dado set----that's what I had and always blamed my poor dados on the cheap set I bought-----but that wasn't it. ;)

Keith---I do hope so for yours and other's sakes, but it's still strange we haven't heard from another sole-----Happy New Year as well.

[hewood]

Originally posted by keith911:
...he said that the new arbor went out yesterday, 1 to me and 1 to strong and he did mention a few other names from this site...
Happy New Years
Keith Well, that's an interesting distribution plan. :rolleyes:


.

[Sawdust Steve]

Keith, I left a message in the main forum as well. Thank you for your efforts, and I will be following up with RIDGID on Monday myself. I hope I am on "the list", too, but then I hope that every registered TS3650 owner is on that list. Of course, after receiving the arbor, I guess the fun begins - installing it and recalibrating the saw.

Have a great New Years. We'll give 'em hell next week.

[flstnhd]

Dave, maybe a bit off this topic but here is a pic of the dados.The one in center of pic is an outside blade(?),two 1/8 chippers and the other outside blade.The dado to the left is the same setup but I added another chipper to the left side.(two passes were made too).With the extra chipper(going right to left) it's pointy,flat, pointy and then flat where the extra chipper is.That's why I was assuming it's the dado set. :confused:


http://www.woodworkersweb.com/modules/gallery/albums/albuu12/dado_001.sized.jpg

[imported_Bob D.]

I just tried calling Ridgid CS at 1-800-4RIDGID (note the area code is 800 not 866) and nobody home which I expected with the holiday but thought I could leave a message about my arbor problem. so will have to call back on Monday and make sure I am 'on the list' to get a replacement arbor.

[travis]

So what does this mean to me, a TS2424 owner with the same problem? Where can I get the corrected arbor?
Thanks - Travis

[keith911]

i would guess that you could get the arbor from ridgid, a don't think it would be the same arbor as the 3650, ask daveferg he might know if they are the same

Keith

[daveferg]

Rob---you likely have both problems----the arbor wouldn't give you that nearly perfect arch---it would tend to be on the side closest to the arbor flange.

Keith--it's really hard to tell from a drawing, but the basic design looks the same---it would be the dimensions and any stops/tangs on the end of the arch of the gears. But, from the parts diagram, the assembly is mounted the same way.

[strong330]

A message that I posted on the General Discussion...

posted 01-04-2005 03:58 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just a quick update:

Larry from Rigid just returned my call (yes he does exist). According to him, my replacement arbor, with the problem supposedely fixed, shipped out yesterday.

Sounds like only people that request replacements through CS will receive them. He said that he has received about five calls to date.

Additionally, it is the shaft only that is being shipped, according to the now famous Larry.

Hope the new ones look good! (I'll keep you posted) Thanks to Larry, and good luck replacing everyone.

[jbranam39]

I just got an e-mail from Ridgid CS, I just had to send them the serial number for my saw and they sent me an e-mail back saying that the new arbor has been shipped and the the repair should be done by a Ridgid warranty repair shop at Ridgids expense.

[ld]

After reading all of these Threads - here as well as in 'General Woodworking Discussion' - my 3650 is out the door. I've had it a year and while I have been pleased with it, I don't like the fact that I now find out that I really cannot use the $249 Stacked Dado set I bought shortly after taking delivery of the Saw.

I do NOT commend Ridgid for shipping out replacement Arbors. Akin to GM shipping you a new cylinder head to replace a defective one.

HOW THE HECK AM I SUPPOSED TO TRANSPORT THIS TO THE "...NEAREST SERVICE CENTER"? This is a heavy piece and I don't own a truck.

They have field technicians that should be dispatched to the location of the Saw. That, in my opinion, would be giving a damn about the issue.

If I am going to transport anything, it'll be a new Saw. Delta, Grizzly, et al, but that's it for Ridgid. They're out of here.

As far as whether or not this is a safety issue, I am content to let the US Consumer Product Safety Commission determine that. I will be writing them tonight. ANYTHING SPINNING AT 3,500 RPM THAT ISN'T TRUE IS IN MY OPINION A HEALTH HAZARD.

Thanks....

[ 02-15-2005, 07:33 PM: Message edited by: ld ]

[Lorax]

Originally posted by ld: my 3650 is out the door. Really? Where's it going? HD sure won't take it back after a year. And I'll bet Ridgid won't take it back when they can get away with just shipping a new arbor. So, like I said, where's it going?

[imported_maineman]

Ridgid's finally got good arbors and they're sending them out.

Have they posted any instructions with pictures for actually swapping out the old arbors?

Has anyone already done the replacement themselves who could answer a few specific questions regarding the procedure?

Thanks

[strong330]

Numerous threads outlining replacement.

[daveferg]

Well---first, ID, I wouldn't hold my breath. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find even the tool companies,with better customer service, going to that extreme of coming to each person's house.

Maineman---if you would do a quick search here, there were some very good explanations of how to switch out the arbors----

[imported_maineman]

Dave thanks,

But with all respect to you, and particularly to Strong330 and a couple others who took time to post guidelines for the procedure, I had gone through all the posts I could find on here and did not find any that I felt were thorough enough.

I had also read a post where somebody's bearings popped out with the arbor and as far as I'd guess most average woodworkers who'd buy this saw probably don't have gear/brake pullers kicking around.

Turns out it's also pretty easy to do this replacement without disassembling the entire saw.
My arbor finally went in yesterday and I have since posted instructions to include the key things that were bugging me before I attempted the replacement.

I should also report that although I did use the current replacement arbor, that customer service had ensured me that the length issue had been addressed as well on these new replacement arbors.

The length issue still exists, yet there are several people here who began the recess defect campaign but who were either unaware of the length issue - not noticed unless you have a professional dado set with a max cut of 29/32" - or failed to push for the length change as well.

As for some of my earlier posts in these threads, I wasn't aware of the length issue until mine was on it's way. Customer service basically stroked me, we measured and remeasured over the phone, and assured me the new ones were an 1/8" longer than the first replacement they had sent to me.

If a new push for longer arbors is not an issue for you then I'm for you. I bought the 3650 because it was promoted as a pro machine that would handle professional accessories.

Safely.

In my opinion the washer should be able to fit on that arbor when loading up dado for the max 13/16" limit.

Who was it mentioned "run-out" for when tightening too much when only the nut is used.

If it isn't unacceptable. Then at the very least it's a potential source of embarassment. Eventually it's going to be known in the field that this saw does not accomodate the best dado sets out there.

We now take a refreshing station identification break and resume our regular programming.

[daveferg]

Maineman----good luck in your arbor battle, but don't hold your breath----if you really want a worry---find out how many saws are capable of taking the new Freud Adj. Dado----darned few!

Now, as I've said before, I have many issues with what OWT did with the 3650----but arbor length, unless they shrank it, has never been much of an issue. I would submit that the fault you're citing is more that of the dado set manufacturer.

As to a safety issue----first, the question of the nut and washer came up on this forum back when Emerson still ran the show, and we had Ridgid's rep.---Jake----regularly fielding questions. He stated that there was no harm in using the nut alone, as long as it's full depth fully engaged the shaft threads.

Secondly, in actual fact, it's more of a safety issue to use a dado set at it's widest possible width, due to the amount of material being removed----forces involved and potential for a nasty kickback. If you want to be safe, you're better off using the dado at less than full capacity and taking several passes. I've been doing this for years and with the exception of a little extra set-up time, I get excellent results---particularly on half-lap joints and the like.

[imported_maineman]

Dabe,

Any elementary book on dado-ing and rabbetting will tell you to make multiple passes. Once again you have done the hit and run in this thread, leaving unsubstantiated factoids, when none of us here can verify one way or the other whether you've actually been doing as much woodworking as posting to these forums.

Would also interject here that your comments on other threads, trying to discredit my suggestions with regard to the production worthiness of this supposedly "professional" grade saw, and how it can be improved, really do appear to be counterproductive to product improvement; whether or not we current owners of the product ever see the improvements ourselves.

It continues to appear as though you're primary agenda, on this thread and on others, is to neutralize any and all efforts to advance design improvements to the saw.

Your inferences that I know less about safe working procedures are not appreciated and I wish you would go into more detail in your posts and give answers that are more comprehensive, and perhaps ask more specific questions which might incidate to newer forum members, that under certain circumstances, say depending on which kind of wood one was planning to dado or rabbet, one might use different techniques or be able to adjust one's limitations.

It's just plain preposterous to assume that someone would be uniformly restricted regardless of which species they were tooling, whether balsa, pine or rock maple.

Why is it you regularly shut people down without asking more about their specific needs or applications?

[smashp]

The Length of the Arbor is a non Factor. The Length on the ridgid 3650 arbor is pretty much an industry standard in contrator grade saws. and has been the norm for many years.

With stacked dado configs above 1/2 to 13/16 it is perfectly acceptable to use just the Arbor nut to hold the stack on. In Fact, thats exactly what the freud rep tells you to do.


On the other note of the dial-a-dado rig by freud. Freud developed a great way to fine tune a dado width, But it is limited.

Let us say that again. Freud developed a product that use is limited by a large majority of saws on the Market.


Thats not sying it isnt a good product, but the majority of people who use such an expensive dado stack usually own Cabinet saws.

but hey, Freud is such a great company, that they know about this limiting factor of their top of the line dado solution. If you own this dado Set, and call freud, they send you the right Blade from the sd508. So you then have full functionality at the larger widths. You then use the dial a dado for the Narrower dado widths.

but hey ignorance of the topic at hand is bliss.

from freuds Site


SD608

Determining if the Dial-A-Width Dado is Right for Your Saw

To determine if your saw is capable of running the Dial-A-Width stacked dado set, check the following:

1. Arbor Nut Size – The arbor nut wrench size can not be larger than 1 3/16” (30 mm). The set includes a 7/8” wrench. If your arbor nut uses a wrench other than 7/8” (22 mm), you will need to use a wrench other than the one that comes in the Dial-A-Width.

2. Inside Arbor Flange Diameter – If the inside arbor flange is under 2 ½” diameter you are OK. If it is over 2 ½”, the Dial-A-Width will not work on your machine.

3. Arbor Length – Measure the length of the arbor on your machine and subtract the thickness of the arbor nut ( Notice it doesnt mention the Arbor washer) from that measurement. If that number is at least 1 3/32” then you can cut up to a ¾” dado with your saw. If it is 1 3/16” or more then you can stack all the components on the arbor at one time. Keep in mind that you must comply with maximums that the manufacturer of saw has for dadoes.

If your saw will not handle a Dial-A-Width then we suggest using our Super Dado. This will give you the same great finish as the Dial-A-Width but you will have to use the included metal shims for fine adjustments.


sd508


The SD500's use an extra thick and stiff outside plate, eliminating the hub. The gullet design provides maximum chip ejection. Both of these features prevent chip buildup within the stack.

[ 02-21-2005, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: smashp ]

[imported_maineman]

Aright that is my idea of a credible post.

Thanks, smashp

I'm not an expert at industry standards but it is good when somebody takes the time to provide information like that.

And thanks woodslayer.
I guess what torqued me about a couple of these major posting maven guys is that I know how unfortunate it is when guys like that probably do have the right information but spread themselves so thin they don't know how it makes less experienced guys not even know whether they should ask followup questions.

Just gave me a strong impression the mavens might be dispensing questionable info or were planted on this site to put down any further cost overruns. In which case I felt they shouldn't worry so much about chiming in on every thread on the site, whether they are experts or not, whether they own the saw or not, just to rack up posts and pass themselves off as the gurus of this site.

I can fend for myself - like you said swede - you sort the good from the bad - guess I just know there are probably a lot of guys not too used to computing - probably twice the woodworkers I happen to be - but just too shy about chiming in - particularly on something as controversial as what I was pushing - only because the whole computer online thing is new to them. Or maybe because they don't know from Adam which company is owned by which and so on, which a couple of those guys keep tossing in on their posts to lend an air of authority.

All I wanted was somebody to post something like this post.

Hope everyone understands that and sorry for all the mindnumbing prose.

Kinda had it's moments though didn't it?

smashp,

thanks very much

[Anne]

Thanx RIDGID. We're in Canada and I was told by RIDGID tech support that they'd get a company in Canada to ship the new arbor to us - well it arrived yesterday and when we talked to the RIDGID service shop in our area, they told us they'd come to our house to replace the arbor - well we're going to book that appt ASAP. So far, can't complain - LOVE THE SAW - will keep you all posted about the "Home Service".

[WaterSTGSS]

Should this problem be fixed on new saw now ?
Is there a way to find out from the box ?
I'm plannin to get TS3650, but I would like to have this problem fixed before I pick one home from HD.

[imported_Knot Me]

Originally posted by WaterSTGSS:
Should this problem be fixed on new saw now ?
I'm plannin to get TS3650, but I would like to have this problem fixed before I pick one home from HD. Considering the number of excellent choices in the market today, I'd think this problem should be avoided if possible, not repaired on a new saw. My recommendation is to either hold off a few months until Ridgid has this issue eliminated, or choose from among the several viable alternatives. Call me crazy, but I have a tough time understanding the urge to spend nearly $600 on a product that has a known defect.

[macpiano]

Originally posted by Knot Me:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by WaterSTGSS:
Should this problem be fixed on new saw now ?
I'm plannin to get TS3650, but I would like to have this problem fixed before I pick one home from HD. Considering the number of excellent choices in the market today, I'd think this problem should be avoided if possible, not repaired on a new saw. My recommendation is to either hold off a few months until Ridgid has this issue eliminated, or choose from among the several viable alternatives. Call me crazy, but I have a tough time understanding the urge to spend nearly $600 on a product that has a known defect. </font>[/QUOTE]

[macpiano]

Woops, hit the wrong button but I bought the 3650 and it had no arbor problem. Maybe I was lucky. I bought it knowing it had "features" such as a potential bad arbor and less than sturdy legs but it did have a full cast iron top, herculift, 36 inch cut, 240 volt motor, highly rated stock fence with t slots, and so forth. I got it with a 10% off coupon from Lowes (they take competitors coupons) for less than $500. I know that I can put cross bracing on the legs if it is not sturdy enough. How many of us don't end up modifying the original table saw with a ZCI, new blade, adding a router table, etc.? I have been thoroughly satisfied with it.
thanks
Gary

[BrandMan]

It is clear that with some models of stack and safety dado blade sets that there can be clearance and alignment issues when used in conjunction with the RIDGID® Model TS3650 table saw. We apologize for any confusion or performance issues that they may have created for those of you who have experienced a problem of this nature. This problem does not occur with all dado blade sets so as a result RIDGID would like to provide you with this means of assistance should you have a concern with your TS3650 arbor and the use of specialty blades like dado sets.

PLEASE CALL RIDGID TECHNICAL SERVICE AT 1-(866)-427-8177.

Our experienced technical support staff will quickly be able to diagnose any potential issues you may have with your TS3650 arbor. If you do have a problem, we will stand behind you and do what we can to supply you with a remedy so that you have the optimum performance, productivity, and enjoyment out of your RIDGID TS3650.