Kitchen Cabinet Construction Questions

[Hardly Workin]

I have been studying cabinet construction, in a couple of books I checked out from the county library. I note they show cabinets built with a frame, as well as those built like a plywood box with no frame. I have closely scrutinized my cabinets in my home, and note the lower ones have a frame of 2X2 yellow pine lumber, while the uppers are built of 1" plyboard, with no frame. I have studied the new cabinets at Lowes and I see most of them are built without a frame as well. I wonder, are there big advantages in a cabinet built without a frame? I am not concerned about the difficulty of building them; my greater interest is in building the very best cabinets I can build. I have secured some black cherry 1X lumber, to construct all that shows externally. What is best to use for the main body, and which is stronger, better, more durable, more desirable, a frame or a plywood construction? I would greatly appreciate your thoughts and opinions here. What method makes the very best finished product? Building them will be a few months of work and study, using them will be the rest of our days.

Hardly Workin

[daveferg]

I think the biggest issue is your personal taste and what would look right/nice in your kitchen.

Frameless have been popular for a number of years----one advantage, you can use European style hinges which are somewhat easier to install once you get the hang of them----But----disadvantages---if this is one of your first cabinet projects----lack of frames will require a bit more care in joining the cabinet carcus----since you don't have a face frame to prevent racking.----Secondly, if using plywood or melemine, you will still have to cover the front edge of the plywood or mel', as it will show when the doors are open.

Now, you should be aware, that the latest trend is away from the more modern frameless look and indeed, there seems to be a movement to more of a "furniture" look----even though they're still cabinets, the appearance looks more like early furniture, first used in Victorian kitchens.

[Hardly Workin]

OK Dave, thanks for that info. May i ask also, is it appropriate for the frames to continue to the floor? Should the cabinets stand on their own frames or, do you build a box at the bottom for them to sit upon? I would think a frame built of hardwood 2X2s and 2X4s would be the very best. And i am thinking it would be best to build that frame so it supports the cabinet on the floor through the verticle members. Am i barkin up the wrong tree so to speak or is this customary in framed cabinet construction?
Thanks for the warning about the plywood box construction, i was tending away from it anyway, figuring it was not as high quality, and now i see your point about the techiques required to construct that type being more difficult. I studied the hinges, latches, drawer slides and other hardware, i am somewhat familiar with the 35MM euro hinges. I figured it was better because it is more adjustable. I would think i could mount those hinges, i will put a lot of effort and practice into that part as well. Thanks so much for the advice and help here.
HW

[Hardly Workin]

One more thing Dave, I am not sure what racking is, i can guess. I understand a good bit of what you are saying, but certainly know i miss some of it. My background is diesel truck fleet maintenance. That is a far cry from cabinet making, and i only embarked on this project to avoid a huge cost the LOML was about to plop down for some cabinets that did not impress me at all.
They were basically particle board with a white plastic cover, faced with hardwood doors and drawer fronts. I think i can do better than that for a lot less, as well as acquire woodworking equipment in the process that could be used throughout my retirement.
thanks again for your help here. I am interested in hearing any thoughts you might have about this process.

HW

[hammerman]

Hi Hardly, Building a frame under your cabinets is to allow for room for a toe kick which is usually 3 1/2 inches in from the face of the cabinets and 3 1/2 off the floor. You then use a quarter inch veneer of the same wood to cover the face of the toe kick. Even though you feel the 84" or taller can support their own weight, if you want a pantry type cabinet from floor to ceiling, you will never be able to stand it up because of the diagonal measurement which will be greater than the ceiling height. so if you build the base frame first, you can lift the cabinet on top of the frame, and use a decorative molding to fill in between the top of your cabinet and the ceiling. The enjoyment in building your own cabinets will keep you going for a long time.I wish you luck in your endeavor.

[Hardly Workin]

Thanks a lot Hammerman. I went and pried the cover off the front of mine at the base, they are old, built in `68 when the house was built, but that is exactly how they are built. i see what you mean now. I figure the frame is the best way to go. I appreciate the advice. I am beginning to see the light as to how they are constructed, and have some ideas of my own as to how to make ours functional, as well as look nice. My wife has a lot of "displayable" items. I figure to make the upper foot or so of each cabinet, along the ceiling, with glass doors a foot tall or so, so she can display these many items. That is better than wasted space, and will add a nice look too, we hope. I figure to use halogen display lighting, did that in her curio in the dining room and it is nice. I also wanted to make the vast majority of the lower cabinets with deep drawers instead of cabinet doors. I figure drawers are much easier to get things in and out of without bending over. I know i will have to have doors under the sink. That way the plumbing is readily accessible, and so forth. We can make these things exactly as we want them too, that is a very good part of making them yourself too.
thanks again.
hardly workin

[hammerman]

Glad I could offer some insight for you. If you are going to substitute drawers on your base cabinets you could make doors on your sink base cab and put false drawer faces on them to match the rest of your cabinets, and use the hidden European hinges. They would be actual doors but with false drawer faces attatched, they would be in keeping with the total drawer look. just a litle input. good luck

[daveferg]

Have seen the fake draw fronts----once saw fake doors on a pull-out shelf-----a lot is in what's pleasing to you. I'd plan a trip with the wife, to your main library and start looking through mags' and books for what you like---also a few trips to the local retailers for ideas as well.

100% agree----drawers or sliding shelves are the way to go for lower cabinets----built some for the wife 10 years ago----she still loves them---first thing she shows visiters.

Racking: If you look at a cabinet, from the front, and note that the top and shelves are at right angles to the sides----racking is when the cabinet sides start to lean, loosing your right angles----on basic cabinets, the plywood back, into rabbeted sides, and the face frames generally keep things from racking.

One thing----floors and walls are never straight---when making any part of the cabinet that touchs the wall, always allow a little extra for scribing in----a good book on cabinet installation will tell you all about it---also check the TV show sites for Home Time, This Old House, etc.

[dwillis]

I don't know if this will work or not,but if it does you might use this idea to use drawers under your sink.
http://www.woodworking.org/Exchange/Forum2/HTML/008770.html
If it don't work maybe you can type it in.
Dave

[Hardly Workin]

Thanks so much. That opened no problem at all. I like the look of that too, i could use that to make it all match better. I don't know what watco means. I am guessing watco is a material, like plywood, particle board or something? I know what lee valey is, and i do intend to make an oak frame using mortise and tenon, dovetail the drawers and so forth. Spar top means they have joined several boards to make a panel? I am guessing here. I know ship builders used to use spars, ribs i thought. And there is a spar varnish for boatbuilders. I do so much appreciate this information. I like the idea of making the doors look like drawers too. I will explore both ideas. Thanks so much for this info.

[gator]

Someone said:

"Frameless have been popular for a number of years----one advantage, you can use European style hinges which are somewhat easier to install once you get the hang of them"

You can use euro style hinges with faceframes. Amerock System 3200 has them.

If you go with traditional faceframes, you can make the boxes out of melamine for a bright interior without painting and easy to clean interior surfaces. Then you can make your faceframes out of whatever type of wood you want to and fasten them to the boxes, make the doors of the same wood and use eurostyle hinges to hang them.

gator

[Dave Arbuckle]

Blum has face frames hinges also. I would bet all the majors do.

I'm not sure at all that face frames are what HW was referring to, however. I have certainly never seen face frames made of "2X2 yellow pine".

I suspect what HW's seen is cabinets with internal structural framework. I believe these are pretty rare these days.

Dave

[ba-doyn]

HW,

Just a thought on your lighting for the upper cabinets...you could consider uplights with glass shelves or get that low-voltage rope lighting and have it run up the sides on the back side of the front face frame. This will light the cabinet and not have the person looking up at the display stare right into a light.

Just a thought.

Michael

[Hardly Workin]

Yes, that is exactly how these were built. My current cabinets were built by the contractor that built this house. The cabinets have a frame of 2X2 and 2X4 lumber. One inch plywood is nailed to that frame to build the cabinets. The doors are made from 3/4" plywood, with routered edges. The drawers are 1/2" plywood that is rabbit jointed, if i understand that term correctly. My wife wants hardwood cabinets that are a lot better. I said before, i am unwilling to shell out $15K for the stuff they call top of the line, that they want to sell her. My quest for info here, is a result of my agreeing to tackle this project myself. I do believe i can build much better cabinets for a lot less.
Having said that, i am uncertain what face frames are. I have purchased a pocket jointer from kreig, i believe the brand is. I have 1000 board ft of cherry lumber waiting for me to go and pick it up in michigan. My plan is to construct a frame, similar to the pine frame i have now on these cabinets, but from some live oak 2X4s i have here. I figure to rip them to 2X2 and plane them accordingly. I hope to finish the 1X cherry lumber, and use that to construct the fronts, and all sides, backs ect that might show. I hope to join this lumber, using the pocket joiner, to make it like plywood that has been sawn into the appropriate shapes. I figure to use this same 1X cherry lumber, to construct the doors and drawer fronts. Not yet certain what lumber to use to make the drawer boxes with. I would appreciate any info or opinions you might wish to add to this plan. I guess that stuff the $15K cabinets my wife chose was the melamine stuff you folks speak of. I figured it was cheap junk. Is this not so? It appeared to me to be akin to particle board. If i use an oak frame, i could line these cabinets with some of the cedar i have here, cut a few years back and now good and dry. Or i could simply line the frame with more of the 1X cherry lumber. Is this not a good idea?
thanks for your trouble;
HW

[daveferg]

OK---here's some additional thoughts.

I think you'd be better off with traditional cabinet construction, rather than built-in-place, which it sounds like your current cabinets are. One big reason is kitchen disruption. In order to build your cabinets in place, you'll have to tear out the existing kitchen and then build the new cabinets, make the drawers, doors and stain----whereas, if you go with traditional, pre-built cabinets, you can build them and finsh them in the shop and have a much shorter down time for the kitchen.

You should do some searching for a good book on making kitchen cabinets---essentially, you have plywood sides and plywood shelves---attached with glue dados and nails. There is an open top frame to attach the counter top. The back is usually 1/4" plywood, with 1x3-4" cleats to attach the cabinet to the studs.

The face frame is simply a solid wood frame formed on the front of the exposed plywood edges of the cabinet. Many ways to assemble this, but pocket screws are very popular.

You said you wanted to use dovetails for the drawers. Think you'll want poplar instead of plywood, because cutting dovetails in plywood is a bear. If you opt for plywood----get Baltic birch because of it's lack of voids.

If you have enough cherry for face frames, doors and drawer fronts, you can easily get cherry plywood for the exposed sides. It's not easy to stain (and we're talking about a lot of staining). You might want to see how your wife likes it with a clear finish.

[Dave Arbuckle]

I agree with Daveferg, sounds like you have built in place cabinets. Not unreasonable for new construction, but having a kitchen without cabinetry for the time required to build them would get me killed by the wife. ;)

A reasonable writeup on frameless vs. face frame cabinets: http://www.cabinetmaking.com/cabinetfaq.htm . I have Danny's book on face frame cabinets. It is a very good step-by-step on how he builds cabinets, and he's very good indeed. If you're interested in multiple options on how to build them, don't get Danny's book, get Jim Tolpin's "Building Traditional Kitchen Cabinets" instead.

These are both for face frame cabinets. I don't like frameless, so I don't have personal recommendations. I bet Prolx's book on them is good, though.

Dave

[Hardly Workin]

I don't intend to make the drawers from plywood, i did say the ones i have are that way now. I figure to use poplar as has been suggested, or i could use some of the cedar i have too. I have about fifteen poplar logs drying, they are about 12" diameter. Do you suppose there is enough good heart in them to make decent short lumber for the drawers? Not sure myself, just yet. Pine would be an option i guess, i have some very large pine logs drying now. They are about 40 ft long and three ft diameter. Have to get them sawed soon. I am in florida, they are southern long leaf yellow pine, with a lot of heart wood in the center.
The page just referenced, on cabinet construction, is a very good explanation of face frames. Thanks for that. I expect to use a frame front and back. I don't expect to use much plywood at all, I have a lot of lumber and will be using that, i hope.
i can build the new cabinets, remove the old cabinets, and then install them. It will be a lot better that way, i see your point. I doubt my wife would consider it a help to be without a kitchen for the time it will take me to complete this project. I do agree i will build them in the garage ( now being converted to a woodshop) and then move them into the kitchen) That is a very good point, thanks for that. I remain unimpressed with the composite boxes my wife wanted to buy. I hope to build something a lot better quality than that. I guess it would be unconventional to build them this way. But i don't have to rush, don't have to cut corners on materials or construction techniques, provided i can learn all the proper joinery techniques. I just hope the end result is the very best quality, and that will be up to me of course.
I sure do appreciate the help. I did order two books recently on cabinet construction. One of them is the one you just mentioned here. The other is the same company, i think it was titled, Building Cabinet Drawers and Doors. Thanks for the help.
HW

[Charlie P]

The advice given hear so far seems first rate (and I have built a lot of cabinets).

I recently switched from face frame to frameless construction to give more open space - showing the edge of 3/4 inch cabinet walls takes less space than a 1 1/2 inch wide "1x2" frame - I get an extra 1 1/2 inches useful width in each cabinet. And the drawers are easier to install, since the guides can be attached directly to the side of the cabinets.

The advantages noted for face frames are real. Plus one more. For one kitchen where I built 22 custom cabinets, I had limited storage space, so built the face frames, doors, and drawer fronts over several months(stored under the guest bed and other places around the house) before starting the cabinet bodies, thus dramatically reducing the disturbance to the household.

But here is where I recently got burned.... The european hinges normally put the open doors slightly in front of the cabinet, so that they don't interfere with the next cabinet or the corner. Great. Until you build a slide-out tray in the bottom of a cabinet, or have a drawer behind the door. Then the position of the door keeps the tray from sliding out. Blum (and presumably others) have a special zero protrusion hinge that keeps the door clear of the tray (when open it doesn't protrude into the cabinet). But the zero protrusion hinge only works with full overlay doors. And the cabinet where I was burned was already built with partial overlay doors.

Bottom line... I am sold on Blum hinges, and now prefer frameless construction BUT be sure you design all the cabinets, all the way to the door and drawer overlay and hinges, before you get started.

[Dave Arbuckle]

Ow, that had to be a painful lesson to learn, Charlie.

To tag onto the idea of designing to the last nut and bolt, if you're going to use European style hinges, get the actual catalog from the vendor of your choice. There's a world of application information in the full-line catalogs, spacing, how to avoid the problem that bit Charlie, the whole nine yards. The Blum full-line catalog is a lot bigger than, for example, the entire Woodcraft catalog.

Dave

[hammerman]

Hi again Hardly, On using plywood as not what you are interested in, is something you may want to rethink. If you get a cabinet grade plywood, it will be fine because you wont see much of the sides of the cabinets after they are hung. And if you select each of the veneer(plywood)panels that you want, you will find some nice woodgrains.If you investigate cabinet grade veneers you will see the quality of the material. I understand you wanting to use solid wood throughout, but your face frames and doors are all that most people will ever see. And I would save that solid wood for your next entertainment center, and living room tables etc. Just another view thats all. Good luck

[Hardly Workin]

Hammerman.. If i understand the cautionary statements correctly, the plywood construction requires a much greater skill.The cabinets i saw at home depot, lowes and at a cabinet shop, were plywood that was basically sawdust with a veneer on it. Most of it was a white plastic look veneer. I don't see that as a good thing. I am certain that are a lot of plywood products that i am unaware of as well. I just happen to have a lot of lumber, some of it is pretty nice stuff. I will work on the techniques a bit before deciding what is best for me. I readily admit most of it is new to me. Most of the warnings i get about skill levels, center on plywood construction methods as well. This is my bigger worry, quality of materials, as well as my own abilities to properly secure plywood so that it does not rack, as i have been warned here, or mess up in any other way as well. I stepped up to the challenge, told my wife we can surely do better than the stuff she was about to purchase. I hope to deliver on that promise. Don't want to let her down, or myself down either.
thanks again for your help. i will have a learning curve to deal with for a while i am sure. I do now see some of it making better sense. thanks so much

Hardly Workin

[Dave Arbuckle]

basically sawdust with a veneer on it. Most of it was a white plastic look veneer.

What you are describing here is MCP, melamine coated particleboard. It has nothing in common with high-quality plywood, other than general shape (flat, long, wide). ;)

Each to their own. Making kitchen cabinets out of solids is a lot more work than I ever would be willing to invest.

Dave

[hammerman]

hi again hardly. We gotta stop meeting like this, my wife is starting to wonder.LOL.

seriously I agree with Dave. You can have your solid wood cabinets rack as well. I have tried hard rock maple cabinets as solid wood box and your assembly is no different either way. But the time and effort it takes to biscuit 3" boards together to make 12" deep cabinets, (not to mention 24" base cabinets), the number of clamps and the room to do all this. Again I agree with Dave. My maple cabinets didn't turn out like i wanted and are now my garage cabinets. once again good luck.

[daveferg]

There is some learning on selecting sheet goods. As was said---plywood is actual layers of wood, with either a hardwood veneer, in various species. I think you'd find that birch ply' for interriors and cherry or whatever ply' to match your exterrior would be fine-----some have poplar cores which add a degree of strength. But there's nothing wrong with using good plywood, as to quality----in fact, I think, with the right tools, it's easier than the composites----not as heavy and you don't need special fasteners, as you would with melemine.

Now, one issue I think you need to address immediately---you mentioned you had "logs" of poplar and pine-----these aren't going to start seasoning/drying until you cut them into planks and sticker them for drying. I'm no expert on wood drying, but have heard air drying might take a year or more. If you're in a rush to do the kitchen, you might have to re-think using this wood.

As to your secondary wood for drawers----while you could use a soft wood, like cedar or pine, if you want dovetails, I think you'd find the poplar a better mate for a hardwood front.

BTW----the last two issues of Wood magazine featured kitchen cabinets. They had what I thought was a great idea for your corners----you might give it a look and see if it would fit your kitchen----essentially, instead of the cabinets meeting at 90 degrees, (and either wasting space or having deep, hard to reach storage) they made a corner cabinet, with a separate straight face, so the cabinets would meet, from the sides, at 45 degrees. The storage was a lot easier to access---also better than lazy susans, which I never liked. Just something else to file for future reference. ;)

[Charlie P]

I hate working with plywood. It is heavy, and gives me slivers. It isn't as much fun as hardwood. But don't forget the great strength and stability of plywood. In a set of premium bookcases I am currently building I went to walnut plywood (over $120 per sheet) for the shelves, etc. because of the stability and stiffness, but am using solid walnut for the raised panel doors. The cost is the same as hardwood (I pay $4.01/bf for Walnut), the waste is roughly the same, and the effort is comparable by the time you mill real wood, match it, and join it to the plywood to hide the core.

As several have suggested, I would avoid particle board and related products in premium cabinets. I would probably use the Home Depot type of $40 birch plywood (sometimes called paint grade) for the inside shelves and hidden sides, I would buy some hardwood plywood for the few visible sides, and use your hardwood for the trim, door fronts, and doors.

[Hardly Workin]

I have visited Lowes and Home Depot often lately of course. I see they have oak plywood, and birch plywood. I have found no walnut or cherry plywood anywhere. I will have to ask around about that stuff of course. I agree, i am not going to use any particle board in our cabinets. Yet the stuff the cabinet shops wanted to sell my wife, was basically particle board with hardwood fronts on them. It looks great but, i don't think it is worth the money they ask for the stuff.
My plan was a lot simpler here. I figured to just construct an oak frame of 2X2s and 2X4s, and then joint the hardwood i have and screw it on, piece by piece. Similar to siding a barn, but with a much closer tolerance between the boards. I did not have in mind to use biscuits or whatever. I do have a pocket jointer kit now. I could use that i suppose, i have practiced with it a bit and see it does a great job.
I said before, i plan to use all drawers in the lower cabinets, likely poplar as has been suggested here. The upper cabinets, will have shelves, and i figure there i might have to use plywood for those shelves. I am as yet uncertain about that. The back side of the upper cabinets, would certainly be best made from plywood i agree. When the cabinet is opened, the inside of the backs will of course need to look great. If i can find the cherry plywood it would match the fronts the best i am guessing. Do you guys know a good place to get this cherry plywood? I confess i have not found any of that as yet.
Anyway, i hope this clears it up, i don't figure i will muff it if i use a frame of oak to keep it all square and plumb.
thanks again for your advice, i do appreciate it sincerely. I honestly doubt i could get all that plywood stright and plumb and joined properly.
i feel much better about the frame design that i see in my current cabinets.
thanks again;
Hardly Workin.

[Dave Arbuckle]

Similar to siding a barn, but with a much closer tolerance between the boards.

There's a reason those spaces are left between the boards. It isn't because they are on a barn, it is to allow the wood to move. Place those boards too close together and they are going to buckle and split on you.

Don't be fooled for a minute into thinking you can overcome wood's natural properties. Ain't gonna happen.

Please, don't consider going to the Borg the same as going somewhere that sells wood. I and others here could probably ask around among acquaintenances for vendors for you, but we need a much narrower target than the entire state of Florida.

Dave

[Hardly Workin]

Place those boards too close together and they are going to buckle and split on you.
I put wainscoating on my dining room wall in `84. It is sitll there, the chair rail is across the top all the way around the room. Still there. No cracks, no splits. I have tounge and groove hardwood flooring i put in a few rooms in the `80s as well. Still there, still fine.
i don't think it will split if i put some more on the exposed outer walls on cabinets, instead of plywood.
No cracks between any of that lumber either. It works just fine. I am confident i can handle that.
The cedar, i plan to line the inside in some places. Just like my closets, they have cedar in them. I can do that, i do believe.
HW

[hammerman]

Evenin Hardly. Well i read your last post and understand how you feel. If you can, go up to your home store and open and close those high priced cabinet doors. The reason is because the panel inserted in between the rails and styles on the doors are loose intentionly to allow for expansion and contraction. Some panels are not quite as thick as others, but none of the panels are glued or they would splitor or crack. And unless you glued your tongue and groove flooring, there is no reason for it to crack, because that design is made to allow for the expansion and contraction.

Hardly, there are a lot of guys on here who are offering you the benefit of their successes, and their "learning experiences". All we all would like to see is your post on how well your project turned out, knowing we were able to contribute to help you succeed

good luck and happy woodworking

[Hardly Workin]

Agreed Hammerman.. i don't plan to glue it. I just figured to put it on with screws. But i am actually uncertain as to how i will end up doing it. I just know i am not going to use plywood, for the most part. Some places yes, but the basic construction, i think i will be using a frame. I explained before, i know i can get that square and in plumb. I fear i could never get such large plywood boxes all sawed, dadoes and all, nailed, glued and screwed up to a proper position. I am certain it requires a great deal more skill than i have. I do feel good about making a frame, strong and true, to hold the counter tops, and whatever i need to put in them as well. The front should end up very similar to any other cabinet, i would think. I have a book that i ordered, i think i saw it referenced here first. "Building cabinet doors and drawers". In that book it mentions not glueing the center panels of the doors, i understand that. I do not propose to glue the hardwood on the exposed ends of the cabinets, nor to the front of the frames. I figure i can fasten that just fine with screws or nails. I hope that makes better sense to you. I am seeking something better than what i see in most cabinet shops. I understand most people build the same things they build there, and that is fine. This is one reason we build our own, so we get exactly what we want.
I am sure it will take me awhile, but eventually i will have something we can be happy with... that is what matters.
thanks for your trouble, i will be very careful with the glue. I did not intend to make anyone think i was gonna glue it board by board.
HW

[Dave Arbuckle]

You have to understand (or at least, I hope you understand), we don't know you. I've participated actively in woodworking forums for I guess about 3 1/2 years. In that time, I've seen some ideas proposed that were frankly daft, things that simply won't work in the long term (sometimes in the short term for that matter).

If I react when I see a concept that can be done wrong, that's why. It isn't anything personal. You obviously have a track record that shows you can pull this idea off. I just didn't know that, you know?

All that to say, no offense intended. Go get 'em!

Dave

[Hardly Workin]

After re-reading all the posts in this line, i think i understand you guys feared i would try to "make plywood" panels from hardwood. Lord no, i would not even consider that. I see that one guy did that or something like that with the maple. Hats off to him, he is a hard worker for sure. When i read the stuff about racking, and grasped the concept, i could see the future and it could have been me. I got to thinking about the things that could go wrong. It hit me, best thing for me to do is to make a frame, like the old cabinets i have now. Then just attach everything to them. I drove back to the cabinet shop my buddy has, guy i grew up with. He basically builds a nice hardwood front and sticks it onto a plywood/particle board box, similar to what you guys talk about. He of course swears by this, has a zillion clamps and fixtures to fit the cabinets boxes up to as he makes them.
i have a lot of respect for that process, it enables you to make them just fine. But to be honest, murphys law would surely get me if i tried that. I think i would blow it.
what i propose is much simpler. if i get the frames right, i cannot mess up after that. My buddy uses a pocket jointer, and joins all the hardwood pieces for the front of his cabinets and fastens them to the particle board boxes he builds. I will do about the same thing, but fasten them to the frame i built first. I do plan to use drawers for the lower cabinets, instead of doors; Necessitating more framing members in the horizontal of course. The other difference is, i don't figure to use plywood for the exposed ends. You guys don't like this part i know. I would be wasting good hardwood. You worry i might get cracks or splits in the wood i place there. I am ok with that. If it messes up i will be surprised, but i could easily fix it if it did. There will not be much of that. Only the ends of the cabinets. My configuration will be short on ends, long on fronts.
I note behind the drawers i won't need backs on the cabinets. They will butt a sheetrock wall in back, in my application. So simple when you think about it, using a frame makes it a lot simpler. Now the upper cabinets, i am uncertain how that will be done. I will build the lower sections first. I might have to use a lot of plywood in the uppers. Shelves and inside backs at least.
If so, i will have to acquire better skills with this shop equipment i purchased, to make it work as a stressed member, plywood is something i have done very little with. This will be my bigger learning curve, if i have to go that route on the top.
I have to study the hardware systems to figure out how to go about making them all come out. I see here where hardware nuances really make a huge difference. It will take me some time, but i will photo the stuff, scan it and show you if i can figure how to do that here. I see others do it so i guess i can too.

thanks again; Hardly Workin

[daveferg]

I think all anyone is trying to do is to be helpful. I don't know why you're so intent on building this with frames (which will take up space inside the cabinets). Not that it might not work, but manufactured and custom cabinets rarely use this method. Properly designed plywood cabinets, with the right joints, glue, etc. are very strong.

As to your use of cedar on the interriors----are you talking about aeromatic cedar, such as is used in cedar chests? Have never heard of this in a kitchen cabinet. But, would advise you stick some plates, glasses and some boxed food in your cedar chest for a few weeks. If the odor doesn't permiate the food or leave a smell to the dishes, I guess you'd be ok??!

[hammerman]

glad to hear we helped. One more thing, if you plan on building your base cabinets and placing them in first.

Most base cabinets are about 24 inches deep from front to back. most wall cabinets are 12 inches deep. It will bw much easier on your back, and arms if you build your wall cabinets first so you aren't constantly reaching over the 24 inch base cabinets.

[Vigs]

Mr. Hardly, I am somewhat new to woodworking as well, although I've done enough rough carpentry to not really spend much brain power on it anymore. But this Cabinetry stuff has really got me baffled as well. Just yesterday I was in Home Depot looking at cabinet designs, and wondering how/why they choose the carcass wood type. I've always felt the way you do, Solid Hardwood is the very best quality.
After reading the many posts, I can understand why it might not be the best for practical reasons, but my feeling is that if I can work out a good design in spite of the problems, I will have a much better product, even if no-one ever sees the inside.
Myabe I'll save solid hardwood projects for furniture and go ahead and use ply for cabinets, I suppose Ply is much better for this in truth. But I completely understand how you feel about it, I share that! The idea behind making your own stuff is that you can take your sweet time and make heirloom quality projects!
Also from reading your many posts I tend to think that you are under estimating yourself. If you can lay some good hardwood flooring, I'd bet you can confidently construct your cabinet carcasses. Get some good corner clamps and bar clamps and give it a try. Heck, if you've got the time, you might even make yourself a test cabinet for the garage.
Good Luck!

[Dave Arbuckle]

The idea behind making your own stuff is that you can take your sweet time and make heirloom quality projects!

That is true. However, very few people consider kitchen cabinets to be eligible for heirloom status. They are subject to fashion changes, new innovations (as in accomodating new types of appliances), and such. The average lifespan of kitchen cabinets is reported to be between 10 and 15 years, and rarely is the replacement due to failure. It's just the Operator of the Kitchen becoming tired of them in many cases.

Dave

[Hardly Workin]

Hey there hammerman, if i understand you correctly, it is best to hang the upper cabinets before i place the lower units? Now see i was thinkin before, it might be a good idea to sit the uppers on the counters of the lowerunits and then with my son's help, hoist them up and lag bolt them to the studs overhead as well as on the wall. I note the ones i have here now are bolted this way. When i actually get closer to that point, i will revisit these pages and ask more questions of course.
I did receive the first 300 ft of my cherry lumber now. I will have my work cut out for me planing and so forth, for a while. I feel certain that will keep me busy for now.
Thanks again for your help, i do appreciate the kind words.
Hardly Workin

[Vigs]

Dave, I have to agree with your philosophy on heirloom furniture. And since kitchen cabinets are in my case chosen by the wife, whose taste changes like her clothes do, at the very least I need to consider that point.

[daveferg]

It is really much easier to install the uppers first, otherwise you'll never get good mechanical advantage lifting them. You can either use a bottom cleat or a French cleat system to hang the uppers.

No question tastes change, and the most important taste is what the wife likes/wants. If you keep the design fairly traditional, you are likely to have less need to change----if you try to be too trendy------well, there are still people trying to figure out what to do with their alvacado refrigerators/stoves. :D

[kirby121]

Popular Woodworking has a (Sept. 03)current mag. on this subject. Furniture Building.
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