Flat Rate Pricing

[haley3]

Currently my company is revising our Flat Rate system. In talking to many contractors about where to be $hourly I am having some concerns with the simple jobs that people get up in arms when prices are presented. i.e. "Replace flapper". When Flat Rate Pricing is based on $150, $175 or $200 how does on over come a price of $200+ to replace a flapper?

[Ghostfitter]

Our hourly rate is $90/hr + $40 truck charge, so $130 for a minimum call out involving less than 1/2 an hour. If you need to call a plumber to change a flapper, you deserve to be nailed :rolleyes: If the job takes more than 1/2 an hour we gotta hit another 30 mins travel time plus about 10 bucks for the flapper. Add on taxes and hidden fees and 200 bucks comes pretty fast. Especially after 4pm when our rate goes to $190/hr charged from the time I leave my house till I get back. IMO the trick is to make the job sound to the customer to be alot more complex than it is.

[ 08-07-2004, 11:41 PM: Message edited by: Ghostfitter ]

[imported_Plumber 122]

With an attitude like the answer from "Ghostfitter"
he can be sure of two things.
A:He will only get the that one chance to put a screwing to a customer like he suggests in his answer. You can be sure that no sane person will call him to do a future job.

B:Contractors like "Ghostfitter" are the reason many plumbing contractors have to deal with the negative attitudes of customers before we even get on the job site. I have been in the business since 1969 and I will never cease to be amazed at some of the horror stories my customers have relayed to me about being taken advantage of by unscrupilous contractors.
We need to make a fair profit by all means. But gouging is not the type of practice that makes for a solid customer base and repeat customers. I take pride in having many of the same customers that I had as an apprentice working for my first employer back in the early 70's. They trust me, and I know I can depend on them to keep me as busy as I will ever want to be!
Plumber 122
Rochester, NY

[Bishop]

Your flate rate should never be based on a number pulled from thin air. The same is true of a by the Hour price.

You have to know the cost of doing business. You must always start by knowing the cost of doing business.

If your at 20.00 then charge 20.00. If your at 500.00 you have to charge 500.00.

Remember an hourly price has always been a flate rate price. Lets get honest the real question is did you give an upfront price!!

[Skye]

Plumber 122 I completely agree, that is the same with my company. As for charging to change a flaper I just charge a service call of $79 plus parts (=$8 per flaper). I tell them that I resurfaceed the water valve and feel for nicks if so I sell them a stool rebuild (flat rate of $169). If they gripe about the price I tell them how other companys charge $130 for just showing up and try to explain to them that I cant do it for free.

[michael stephen]

it amazes me knowing some people will even call a plumber, just to change a simple toiler flapper..!!

[DawgFan]

Hey man..Some customers have never even taken the lid off the back of the toilet..I'm not complaining...I am very ashamed as a plumber that people do thend to gouge customers..It effect the whole industry. To fugure out how much to charge..Figure out what it cost you to operate on a daily basis...Call around and see what the competition charges....There is no pride in being the cheapest man in town!

[spacebluesonoma]

From a non tradesman's point of view. I am a DIY'r and do most of the work around my house i can do myself. if I overtake something i can not handle (with is not too often) i network, read, hit the internet, etc, get the answer, get it right, and get it done. On occassion though, I have had to call a professional. Lots of people out there in all trades getting too much money per hour than what they should. Yes it costs money to operate, yes materials cost money, yes, labor costs money, overhead, facilities, etc. Licenses,bonds, etc. I for one will not call anyone who will not come out and give me a free estimate. yes it is time. but your time is valuable and my time is valuable. And there are companies out there that want to do more that was needed. We bought a home with a home warranty and the water heater went out. I was out of town when this happened so my wife called the HWA people and they sent out a contractor 100 deductible and the thing was in. not long after i developed a leak near my soil stack. i had a horizintal drain from the sink running into the "t" on the stack. called HWA and found out was not covered (internal leak) so i called roto rooter for a "free estimate" they wanted close to 400 bucks to clean out and repack the joint. i had no idea how to relead a horiziontal pipe. I called the guy who did my water heater for a second opinion and he came out, went back to his truck and grabbed a weird looking chisel and some silicone. he merely tapped the lead back in and put some silicon around it. charged me a 35 dollar service call. he then went on to tell me that if the silicon doesnt stick or i develop any more problems i did not need to call him. he showed me exactly what to do, introduced me to quickrte hydro stop i belive it is called and i have not seen him since. he showed me what i needed to do in order no not have to shell out money everytime i need a simple leak fixed. well i ended up having to drill out that lead, repack with okum, and water stop it. that lasted until the cast iron stack started to seeep. i replaced it all personally with PVC. LONG day, pain in th ***, but saved a bunch of money.

my point? dont rip people off on the simple ****! if someone calls you to do what ends up being replacing a flapper or a simple toilet adjustment, charge them for that. you get the part wholesale, sell it to them retail and charge them a few bucks to put it on. i dont think there should be such a thing as a "flat rate", i'd never call you if you were going to charge me 79 or 89 bucks just to show up.

i do not believe that hourly pricing works/flat rate pricing. show up, see what needs to be done, quote a fair price and you will have plenty of business.

i am currently getting my house sided and new windows. for siding alone i got estimates from 7000-15000.00

i was going to research it and do it myself in the spring. i figured i'd start in the back and get the hang of it and then once i figured it out would move th the sides and front.

got a contractor to give us another bid, and he is doing windows and siding, for less than 1000.00. premium windows, premium siding and he is essentially been a one man show so i have been working with him and learning. he admits that most of these siding contractors are getting too much money per square foot. He beieves in a fair price for the money. there were three homes sided on my block by those big guys over the summer. we went for a walk and he pointed out at least a half a dozen mistakes per house. now granted they are things i may have never noticed, but he pointed them out. when he got to those points on my house he showed me how they were different and his was right!

so he is doing a better quality job at a lower price!

charge people labor, retail on parts, and a reasonable service call price to cover expenses.

a common citiczen's two cents nothing more!

[DawgFan]

I guess peoples opinion differs..We do not do free estimates...Well..only on very large jobs...Small stuff..Call us ..we;ll fix it..About the price..Have you ever ran a business and endured things like..Workers comp? Liability insurance...I would fire an employee if I caught him putting silicone in a cast iron fitting.. That is a lawsuit waiting to happen...Peace to ya...Just my two cents.. smile.gif

[imported_PLUMBER RICK]

PLUMBER 122 IS RIGHT. I AM A ONE MAN SHOP. I WORKED FOR A NEW CONSTRUCTION UNION SHOP FOR 14 YEARS. WHEN YOU BID JOBS YOU HAVE TO BE COMPETITVE TO GET THE JOB. YOU DON'T ALWAYS HAVE TO BE THE LOWEST. ON SERVICE AND REPAIR I SEE PEOPLE GETTING TAKEN ALL THE TIME. I KNOW MOST OF THE COMPANYS REPUTATIONS. I CAN NAME THEM. ALL OF MY WORK IS REFERRAL. I DON'T ADVERTISE. I HAVE WELL OVER 750 CUSTOMERS. THEY KNOW ME, AND I KNOW THEM. I VERY RARELY GIVE ESTIMATES. THEY ALL TRUST ME. OTHER PLUMBERS REFER ME TOO. I'LL DO JOBS THAT ARE TOO TECHNICAL FOR THEM. I WILL NOT STEAL THEIR CUSTOMERS. MY RATES ARE BASED ON HOURLY. MY MATERIAL IS ALSO BASED ON RETAIL. MY PHONE RINGS 7 DAYS A WEEK. I THINK I DO PRETTY GOOD FOR MYSELF. IF YOUR HONEST AND GOOD, AND WORK HARD THERE IS NO REASON WHY YOU CAN'T MAKE A GOOD LIVING. YOU DON'T NEED TO RIP OFF PEOLPE. I COULD NEVER THINK OF SELLING A .50 CENT CAN OF COKE FOR 7.50. THIS IS WHAT FLAT RATE IS ALL ABOUT. MOST OF THE WORK FORCE OF THESE CO. WOULD NEVER MAKE IT AT AN HONEST SHOP. THEY ARE NOT SKILLED IN PLUMBING. THEY ARE GOOD SALESMEN. LET THEM SELL USED CARS!

[ 12-31-2004, 04:29 AM: Message edited by: PLUMBER RICK ]

[AJC]

Some people make me laugh. spacebluesonoma is one. He is the kind of customer that will low ball everyone and every thing. I wouldn't put up with him for five minutes. How many people complain about a plumber's rate, but will go to the local Red Lobster and drop a hundred dollar bill for a lousy dinner? A plumber provides a service (such as changing a water heater) that will last for years, and they have to get grief because the price is more than a local handy man would charge. The price must be fair, not cheap. If a plumber can't make a very good living, he should get a new line of work. I bet spacebluesonoma's diy handywork is a sight to behold.

[DawgFan]

People like him actually keep u s very busy....A DIY-er goes in ..starts a job...gets in over his head..and screws the job up worse than before he started...Thx space...Wink-wink

[michael stephen]

i totally agree that price must be fair and not cheap.. youre paying for good quality service..

[plumber]

Well this is my first eve. on this site. Saw this thread earlier and another on a different line that prompted me to come back and join this evening. Hello Gentlemen.

Having worked in the Plumbing and construction trades for a bit over three decades it has been my obsevation and experience that flat rate pricing is a fabulous deal for a shop full of salesmen. T&M is still the fairest way for honest tradespeople to deal with customers on the service side of HVAC and Plumbing. Most flat rate programs base all pricing as if each job were the only one to be done on a trip. For instance if a plumber is called out to rebuild a toilet and the flat rate is 150 bucks for that job and the customer asks him to change a flapper in another bathroom, that serviceman has to charge as if he made another entire seperate trip for that job. That becomes 300 dollars for about 45 minutes work and 30 bucks worth of parts. Its not fair to the plumber to put him in the position of gouging a customer while looking him in the eye. And its certainly not fair to the consumer.

Though I seldom do residential service work anymore I never did have a problem when a good faith estimate ran over by a bit. If there were unforseen circumstances that caused a good faith estimate to be inaccurate by more than a small amount an honest explantion of that circumstance, before the work went any farther, always eliminated at least 98% of any customer complaints. Even the ones who did complain called me back for other work so I know they didnt really think they were being taken.

I worked for a shop that went to flat rate pricing about fifteen years ago. It was a rip off of the customer sold as a fair deal. Within a week this plumber said no thanks. I liked to look my customers in the eye when I saw them in a store or at social occasions like sporting events and the like. To this day it was a decision I do not regret. That contractor closed a few years ago and his name is not worth phlegm throughout an entire half of a State. No one in the trade will have anything to do with the guy.

If you do good work and treat people fair you will be prosperous and successful.

[imported_PLUMBER RICK]

PLUMBER, I FEEL THE SAME WAY. HERE IN LOS ANGELES IT SEEMS THAT EVERYBODY WANTS TO GET RICH WITHOUT WORKING FOR IT. THE TRADE HAS CHANGED ALOT SINCE I WENT INTO IT FULL TIME IN 1981. NOW WHEN I GO TO THE PLUMBING SUPPLY HOUSE THE OTHER "PLUMBERS" SHOULD BE GOING TO A HARDWARE STORE. THEY CERTAINLY DON'T KNOW PLUMBING PARTS. LIKE YOU SAID, THEY ARE SALESMEN, NOT TRADESMEN. I GUESS IT'S A MARKETING GIMMICK. WHO PAYS $7.50 FOR A COKE AT A FAST FOOD RESTRANT. THAT'S WHAT FLAT RATE IS. I'M A TIME AND MATERIAL MAN. I DON'T ADVERTISE AND I HAVE MORE WORK THAN I CAN HANDLE. ALL OF MY CUSTOMERS ARE REFERRALS. WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU LOOKED IN THE YELLOW PAGES FOR A DOCTOR? THE HONEST AND GOOD WILL LAST. THE DISHONEST WILL GO AWAY. WE'RE HERE TO STAY.

[EJW]

I am new to these boards. I have been in this biz for 20 years this August. There is no such thing as a free estimate. Flat rate is the standard practice of all car dealerships on car repairs.

[imported_PLUMBER RICK]

YOUR CORRECT ABOUT THE CAR DEALER PRICING. BUT PEOPLE ARE TOO SMART TO PAY $7.50 FOR A SOFT DRINK. IF THE PRICE IS COMPRABLE TO T&M THEN I CAN FEEL LIKE IT'S NOT A RIP OFF. BUT EVERY ESTIMATE OR INVOICE I'VE SEEN SHOWS JUST THE OPPOSITE TO THIS. I DON'T MIND WORKING FOR AN HONEST LIVING. HOW MANY REPEAT CUSTOMERS DO FLAT RATE SHOPS HAVE. I HAVE WELL OVER 95%. THE ONLY REASON WHY IT'S NOT 100% IS BECAUSE I DO A LOT OF WORK FOR OTHER PLUMBING CONTRACTORS CLIENTS. I DON'T WISH TO TAKE THEIR CLIENTS. I HAVE TOO MANY ALREADY. 750 PLUS. NO ADVERTISING AND NO HELPERS. ALL REFERRALS.

[Herk]

There are a lot of misconceptions about flat rate pricing. Part of the reason I switched to it is that a lot of my customers were insisting that I tell them what it was going to cost, often referring to it as a "ballpark figure." But when the job was finished, that ballpark figure became the only thing they could remember.

Figuring out your flat rate price begins with knowing what it costs to do business. You can bet your bippy that McDonald's doesn't base the price of a burger on what Sonic is charging. You can also bet that people don't call all the fast food restaurants on the phone to see which one is cheapest before they go out to buy burgers for the kiddies.

But McDonald's makes about 25% profit on the burgers they sell. Can the same be said of plumbers? Do most small-town plumbers even know what the word profit means? When buying some phone book advertising a couple of years ago, I was told by a representative that the two types of people they have the hardest time collecting from were lawyers, followed by plumbers.

There's a reason that mechanics use flat rate to price car repairs. And how often do people hand the mechanic a set of points and eight spark plugs? How often do they go to one grocery store to buy a chicken, then to another grocery store deli and hand them the chicken and say, "I like the way you cook these but your chicken price is too high, so just charge me the labor on this."

it's not true that all flat rate prices are like charging the price to get you there. The flat rate systems I've looked at all have a price for the first job, which includes getting there, and secondary tasks that are added to that job, and don't include that.

One of the things I've learned in my research is that no two plumbers that I've seen do things exactly the same way. One may mark up all material 30% and charge $85 per hour, another may charge $65 an hour and double the price of materials. I've seen plumber's invoices where the materials weren't even listed - just "Material = $150" and the labor charge. I've also seen them mis-add their bills and go home with an extra $50 - and I wondered how often they get away with it - how many customers re-add the bill to check it.

Some charge shop-to-job, others charge a minimum service charge and then by the hour. Some just charge for the hour. And in the flat rate world, some charge a lot and put in the absolute cheapest parts they can find. Others demand the same quality in their parts and service no matter how they do the job, knowing that a trip back destroys the profit. Some use anything they've got on the truck to complete the job and get the bucks, while others go and get what they need if it's not on the truck, because they take pride in their work.

The numbers don't lie. You need to charge what it costs you to do business and come up with a profit. In a profession that uses hundreds of thousands of parts, uses up service trucks, requires a shop and someone to answer the phone, and so on, it takes a lot of profit for a company to grow. How many t&m people are actually making a profit, let alone a decent profit? According to DEX, not very many.

If your customers are calling your wife and asking, "What's his hourly rate?" what's the likelihood that you'll get that customer, and why? Are you lower than the rest?

And as to the customer, how many bills do you hand to them and wince, knowing they're going to be shocked? Isn't it better to get the shock over with at the beginning of the job so they don't feel trapped into paying it when you're done?

You can make money with t&m if you can get the hourly rate you need and perhaps a separate charge to get to the job, if you even know what it is you need. But when the customer is calling all the plumbers in the book to see what the rate is, what's your standing? If there aren't many plumbers in your town, and the code enforcement is tough enough to keep out the riff-raff, you stand a good chance and my hat's off to you.

If you hire plumbers and send them out in a van, do they have health care, retirement, good wages? (Neither do I, but I'm working on it.) I did have those things when I worked in a housing factory over thirty years ago. I haven't had them since. I've heard there are flat rate companies that will fire a "tech" who doesn't bring in $1,500 per day, but I don't know who they are. I did talk to one who works for a flat rate company from another town a couple of months ago, and he told me he made over $60k last year. I haven't set my sights that high, but in the thirty years plus that I've been in business, I've seen a lot of other area plumbers go down the tubes. I've seen longtime businesses go bankrupt and there are others threatening to quit because whatever side job they have is paying them more money.

I've only recently switched to flat rate, and the response so far has been great. In fact, I often get a check before I even start working, though I tell them they don't have to pay until the work's finished. It's "Here's your check, we've got to run, so lock up when you leave."

However you run your shop, don't knock flat rate until you've looked into it more deeply. Some of it's hype, and greed will kill your business no matter which way you charge for it. But not enough money might kill it even faster.

[oldslowchevy]

herk you seem to have put alot of thought in to your very frist post here and before the war starts please allow me to welcome you here and ........DUCK!!!! lol

[ToUtahNow]

Herk,

Welcome to the site. I'm not sure digging up a battle from 32-months ago will make many friends but it will sure get you noticed.

I don't think it is really a flat rate versus T&M debate as much as it is how a shop is run. The arguement about being able to tell a customer what it's going to cost before you start really has more to do with shops who have under qualified plumbers. As a T&M shop I would give the customer a price over the phone which included materials and labor and explain what those charges were. I was able to do this because my plumbers were qualified and I knew how long it took to do a job. Some of the flat rate shops quote a price but will not explain how they arrived at the price and often only give the price after the customer has paid a minimum service charge.

Mark

BTW: Yes we made a profit we were able to pay all of our bills and gave our guys full benefits. You might be surprised to learn how many business actually can make a profit while given full disclosure of their pricing.

[gear junkie]

Herk, welcome to the forum. Go through the archives and you'll see this is probably the passionate debate on the forum. There are pro's and cons to each side. My take on it is that the pricing policy doesn't matter, it's the person/company behind the policy. A dishonest person can make the most noble methods become their vehicle for cheating the community.

[DuckButter]

...... The arguement about being able to tell a customer what it's going to cost before you start really has more to do with shops who have under qualified plumbers.

A shop that uses flat rate has underqualified plumbers?

I'm not trying to add fuel, but both sides have pro's and cons, which is why this is such a hot topic.
Ironically an argument could be made that flat rates symbolize an confidence in knowing what a job will entail for time/material, where someone who's afraid to give a flat rate would go with t&M to cover themselves in case they were mistaken.
I'm not saying thats the case, what I'm saying is maybe insulting another way of doing things isn't the best idea to discuss differences.
Herk has valid points, and apparently some great experience to offer.
I'm thinking lets welcome him.
Herk, he's right...ya probably don't want to start off with this topic, not from what I've been told.

[Herk]

Heh - sorry about dredging up an old topic. I did a search for flat rate discussions and when I read some of the posts, I felt that there were a number of points being made that simply weren't true or valid.

And thanks for all who welcomed me.

[drtyhands]

Some one can go into the archives to read what I have to say.

Welcome to the forum Herk:)

[westcoastplumber]

First of all, welcome to the forum, stick around for the fun;)

I agree with you on many levels. I have been having a few discussions with other plumbing company owners the last couple weeks. One company stands out in my mind right now, he uses the I2 trades book, the little green one, he has been using it for over 8 years now, does no advertising in the yellow pages, all his customers are referalls and repeats.

The customers appreciate the fact that they know the cost of everything before the tech starts. They will even go over the book with him when they have questions, no complaints and he has never been in court.

T&M is out the door, Flat Rate is here to stay and the t&m shops will fade out.

I am a flat rate company, I watch my prices and unlike some of the other plumbers I know, I am in the business not to be the cheapest, but to provide a reliable, professional, knowledgable service to my customers, not the cheapest hourly rate.

Flat rate is an excellent tool when it is used right, you can abuse t&m just as much as you can abuse flat rate.

We should leave this discussion dead and start talking about all the Fly By Nite, no-knowledge, unlicensed, wanna be the cheapest, shall I continue?

Flat Rate All The Way, out with the old and in with the new.

[ToUtahNow]

A shop that uses flat rate has underqualified plumbers?

I'm not trying to add fuel, but both sides have pro's and cons, which is why this is such a hot topic.
Ironically an argument could be made that flat rates symbolize an confidence in knowing what a job will entail for time/material, where someone who's afraid to give a flat rate would go with t&M to cover themselves in case they were mistaken.
I'm not saying thats the case, what I'm saying is maybe insulting another way of doing things isn't the best idea to discuss differences.
Herk has valid points, and apparently some great experience to offer.
I'm thinking lets welcome him.
Herk, he's right...ya probably don't want to start off with this topic, not from what I've been told.

I probably shorten my reply thinking what I was saying was obvious so that is on me. What I meant to say is the shops who cannot give a price over the phone whether they are flat-rate or T&M are the shops with under qualified plumbers. I did not need to have some one drive out and take a look at a job prior to giving a price because I knew how long it should take for a specific job already.

Mark

BTW: I am only referring to service and repair

[DuckButter]

I probably shorten my reply thinking what I was saying was obvious so that is on me. What I meant to say is the shops who cannot give a price over the phone whether they are flat-rate or T&M are the shops with under qualified plumbers. I did not need to have some one drive out and take a look at a job prior to giving a price because I knew how long it should take for a specific job already.

Mark

BTW: I am only referring to service and repair

Good call, a KS replacement, disposal, toilet, CI flange, DW, WH, silcock replace, shower valve stem replace, etc...all standard.
One of the most seemingly overlooked factors in this topic are the unknown variables.
When a call comes in for a wet spot on the ceiling below a bathroom, whats the flat rate if it's not under any specific fixture?
How many hours will that take?
This scenario doesn't advocate either practice, just a curveball I get thrown alot.

[plumberscrack]

Good call, a KS replacement, disposal, toilet, CI flange, DW, WH, silcock replace, shower valve stem replace, etc...all standard.
One of the most seemingly overlooked factors in this topic are the unknown variables.
When a call comes in for a wet spot on the ceiling below a bathroom, whats the flat rate if it's not under any specific fixture?
How many hours will that take?
This scenario doesn't advocate either practice, just a curveball I get thrown alot.

Ducky it's 2:20AM!!!...why are you still awake?...Turn off the Techno/Trance and get some sleep man:D

Just when I thought this subject had gone away someone dredged it up again.:mad:

My way is right and this is why......blah.. blah.. blah..;)

Can we get back to discussing whether to use silicone or latex caulking?:D

[drtyhands]

the flat rate plumbers all charge extra for unseen issues.

[oldslowchevy]

and the war begins ..................................... TAKE COVER!!!!!!!!

[westcoastplumber]

Good call, a KS replacement, disposal, toilet, CI flange, DW, WH, silcock replace, shower valve stem replace, etc...all standard.
One of the most seemingly overlooked factors in this topic are the unknown variables.
When a call comes in for a wet spot on the ceiling below a bathroom, whats the flat rate if it's not under any specific fixture?
How many hours will that take?
This scenario doesn't advocate either practice, just a curveball I get thrown alot.


There is a diagnostic fee, I use my micro to find leaks now, then I apply the diagnostic fee to the est given, if the customer does the work, great, if they chose not to, then I collect the diagnostic fee and leave:D Leaks don't usually take any longer then an hour to find, usually 30 mins

[westcoastplumber]

the flat rate plumbers all charge extra for unseen issues.




This may be true for some companies, I don't do this. I have been doing service work for a long time and once I look at the job, I know what it's going to take to complete the job.

Every once in awhile a suprise may pop up, I will just take the lose then, you can't win them all every time.

[Herk]

One of the most seemingly overlooked factors in this topic are the unknown variables.
When a call comes in for a wet spot on the ceiling below a bathroom, whats the flat rate if it's not under any specific fixture?
How many hours will that take?
This scenario doesn't advocate either practice, just a curveball I get thrown alot.

When you have a wet spot in a ceiling, you diagnose the problem. If it isn't something obvious, like a toilet or bathtub leaking on the floor above, you bid the time to find the problem. You can't bid what you can't see. Then, when you've either opened the ceiling or made a hole for your SeeSnake, and you know what the problem is, you bid it. It's unfortunate we don't have X-ray vision yet, but there you go.

[plumbdog10]

Are you service guys really going to start this argument again? I'm starting to believe this new guy is a plant, after all this is an old argument. He seemed to find it. We have had disgruntled members lately. I'm not saying he is one, but think about it.

[MrsSeatDown]

Dog, why are you surprised? I'm not. Apparently this is a topic that can be argued in circles for years and years:p

I can name all the flat rate guys and all the t&m guys in alphabetical order now:D

I did notice it was an old thread the other day, but this topic just gets people's juices going even if they are repeating themselves.

[DuckButter]

Dog, so far nobody's arguing....I hope.

I just think this topic shouldn't be such a taboo here, I like to think this forum is just for this type discussion.
I also think the regulars here are more than mature enough to have differences without making it personal or insultive. (well, ok, maybe not me..but I'll try)

Robert, in a wet spot on ceiling scenario I wimp out and go hourly, I tell the customer my first hour is fixed regardless how long I'm there...IF - I can't get them to recall when it first showed or what fixture was used when it showed.
It's usually a flange leak, w/overflow or caulking leak.
If it turns out to be something small I'll ask if they want me to look at anything else while I'm there, as they pay for the hour.
One job turned out to be the first of a large number of corrosions on the hidden copper water pipe in the ceiling.
It wound up becoming a bath remodel/repipe, as they decided to just do it while the pipes were exposed, I used the first charge toward the overall estimate.

[DUNBAR]

But when has service plumbing been cut and dry?


Just for example, a tour of my recent week in service plumbing:


Disposal replacement, switching to Evolutions series which totally changes the end outlet waste completely, basket strainer nut completely shot, unexpectedly found when wiggling the pipe loose from the disposal. The nut was pot metal and the basket strainer had been leaking for awhile.


Toilet I set friday had a plastic flange that snapped by barely tightening the bolts, had to pull it back up and use a spanner as that's all I had on a friday evening and knew it would work.


Icemaker filter replacement that has embedded john guest fittings that would not stop leaking whatsoever, had to reinstall the old filter as I couldn't abandon the water supply to the fridge.


Sump pump replacement that had the last 90 turning to go vertical was a contaminated solvent weld joint from years ago.....I found it when I "carefully" raised the piping as it was loose tethered with strapping heading out the back wall. That 90 snapped and you could tell the solvent weld joint was garbage. I was actually glad it broke then and there than later.


Monday and wednesday were 2 Delta shower valve replacements in the walls, going from 1500 series to 1700 series, the second went quite a deal quicker than the first as the second one was a shower only. That first one was a real SOB on many levels and took longer than expected, 4 hours.



In summary, the only customer that I gave a general price on was the disposal and I warned her of the possibility of it not matching up. I've had this exact type of customer that wants set pricing over the phone....only to find out that when you get there its a whole different ballgame.

I'm going back this week to rework that entire sink drain and replace the strainer, collect on the 1.5 I had replacing the disposal. << Encountered problems wiring that new disposal as well.

I know you all have seen the situation when you put your hands inside the tank of a toilet and replace that flapper....the fill valve is at the same age or older. You're taking a huge chance that fill valve malfunctions, and even if it doesn't, you'll get blamed for it if it happens shortly after you have been inside that tank.

Unless you're work detail covers full replacement of everything in the tank, you'll be out of that loop entirely.


A customer can become highly offended if they have a leaking shutoff valve to their toilet and you give them a price to replace everything down to the tank to bowl bolts to that toilet with that price. Are you fixing the problem or are you baiting the work with adding more that needs to be done?

Last I checked, I go and get my windshield wipers changed on my truck and didn't get forced to spend money on new floor mats and oil change, filter. It wasn't a package deal to get the wipers.

I bought what I needed, not what came prepackaged as a take it or leave it scenario.

You already know where I am on this gammut and I do very well on my charges. I've been doing this long enough to guesstimate what it'll take to do the work...and if it takes longer? I'm covered as the rolling clock covers that extra effort involves.


The majority of people understand that circumstances with difficult jobs or unexpected happenings can really change what they spend.

Thanks to Roto-Rooter......you're personal loan plumber *you'll need a personal loan to pay them off* , their flat rate system sends their clientell into my open arms wanting to spend money only on what they need money spent on, not a specified chart of what makes the plumber a sizeable profit notated by some company that doesn't care how much you make.


I can see flat rate working in some instances....but I've never seen service plumbing go in simplistic fashion where every job is the same without any additional work add-ons. Never.

[drtyhands]

Thank you Dunbar,
When the flat rate is given the customer is under the impression that it is the bottom line.What they don't know is 75% of the time there is inevitably going to be extra charges.Like the toilet Dunbar is talking about,What's the flat rate to change a supply stop $85.00.What's the price to change a flange,$175.00.To change a ballcock assembly,$90.00.So what are we looking at here realisticly.Worst case scenario,"Well ma'am $800.00 should cover me going through everything on your toilet and giving you the final product you want.

No disrespect to the honest plumbers who use flat rate.This is my opinion only.I have a friend who uses flat rate and have no problem poking him with a cattle prod:p

[Herk]

But when has service plumbing been cut and dry?
It never is, and that's why there's creativity needed in putting together a flat rate price.

Your plumbing scenarios are no different than the kind I run into.

You're taking a huge chance that fill valve malfunctions, and even if it doesn't, you'll get blamed for it if it happens shortly after you have been inside that tank.

Yeah - and it's embarrassing when the customer calls and says, "Why didn't you replace that while you were here?" When you protest that you were trying to save them money, they complain that it's going to cost more to get you back out than if you did it while you were there. It's always a good idea to replace a fill valve if it's cheap or more than a couple of years old.

A customer can become highly offended if they have a leaking shutoff valve to their toilet and you give them a price to replace everything down to the tank to bowl bolts to that toilet with that price. Are you fixing the problem or are you baiting the work with adding more that needs to be done?

But the flat rate book has prices for minor tank rebuild, major tank rebuild, changing a flapper, a fill valve, a supply tube or any single part. All the prices in the book are not just for complete rebuilds.

Last I checked, I go and get my windshield wipers changed on my truck and didn't get forced to spend money on new floor mats and oil change, filter. It wasn't a package deal to get the wipers.

And yet mechanics are almost always flat rate. Hmm.

But go somewhere to get your vehicle "serviced" and you'll get plugs, points, condenser, oil change, filter changes, and so on. All for one "low" price.

You seem to be arguing that if you're flat rate, you have to charge for a large collection of problems rather than doing a simple repair. Yet, when charging by the hour it's not uncommon to say, "That was a simple job, and you've got time left - is there anything else I can do while I'm here?"

There are flat rate companies that pay commission and train their "techs" to upsell as much as they can. But not all flat rate companies are like that. (I'm certainly not.) However, it would be irresponsible to work for someone and not tell them that they need some preventative maintenance. People don't schedule a new toilet flapper every three years, though perhaps they should. A swollen flapper can flood a house if the fill valve fails. An undetected leak can destroy a cabinet and a floor.

Auto manufacturers and oil change shops do schedule preventative maintenance. Flat rate service contracts give at least a yearly inspection of the plumbing to detect those leaks and problems, and usually at a very low price.

[drtyhands]

Herk,
You nailed it bro'

"CREATIVE ESTIMATING"

:cool:

[Herk]

What's the flat rate to change a supply stop $85.00.What's the price to change a flange,$175.00.To change a ballcock assembly,$90.00.So what are we looking at here realisticly.Worst case scenario,"Well ma'am $800.00 should cover me going through everything on your toilet and giving you the final product you want.

I know what you mean. I ran into a toilet about a year ago that had been done by an out-of-town flat rater. The lady had called me because the flush lever hadn't been replaced. When I told her it was also leaking between the tank and bowl, she irately exclaimed: "It better not be! I paid that plumber $380 to repair that toilet! And he had to get a part from Salt Lake!"

The plumber, if he was a plumber, had replaced the tank-to-bowl set and the flapper, using a thin vinyl OEM aftermarket washer and smearing it with silicone for good measure. He had also used cad-plated bolts, something I would never have done.

I replaced the trip lever, the bolts, and used a foam Am. Std washer with the ridge cut off from the truck, and no silicone, and I'll warrant that seal for ten years if necessary. Essentially, I replaced all the parts he replaced and came in at less than half his cost.

My FR book's price for a non-brass major toilet rebuild comes in at about a quarter of the $800 you imagined. But then, I adjusted the prices in the book to reflect the area I'm in. If the bottom line doesn't increase, I may regret it. :-)

No disrespect to the honest plumbers who use flat rate.Thanks. I hope I'm one of them. But just as my small-town customers depend on me when they have a problem, I depend on them to make enough money to run the business, and competing with the local $65 - $70 per hour t&m guys isn't going to keep the tank filled.

[DUNBAR]

Yeah - and it's embarrassing when the customer calls and says, "Why didn't you replace that while you were here?" When you protest that you were trying to save them money, they complain that it's going to cost more to get you back out than if you did it while you were there. It's always a good idea to replace a fill valve if it's cheap or more than a couple of years old.

And with that note you open yourself to more liability because the fill valve is connected to a supply line that "most" will replace knowing the fact it'll leak if reused. Also, you're now messing with a valve that hasn't been turned off in years and not all packing nuts turn to reset the packing gland due to age. I always replace flappers with the toilet running with the fill valve held up if need be in regards to Mansfields. 400A's have less of a risk of interruptive damage when done in this fashion, unlike the old ballcocks that are sensitive to any unusual movement due to those upper/lower discs having memories.

Who's the judge on whether that fill valve is a necessary expenditure to the customer? All the customer understands is that it was working before you got there. Suggestive upselling in a flat rate book open in front of a customer can have disturbing results, especially when a time and material guy is charging materials and maybe 15-30 minutes more time. The customer understands it in both scenarios, one is significantly higher in price though.

Had a friend in florida have a toilet reset which was $300, $200 to replace the shutoff that was leaking, $90 for the trip charge less than 6 miles from her home. Almost $600 for the reset of an existing toilet because the husband blew the wax ring out accidentally.

The female friend of mine called me crying, wanting to know why it was so expensive and why it cost so much, knowing the repair was 1.35 hours to complete the task, 2 hours if you want the service tech's time from the shop to his local eatery sitting in a van munching his lunch down before he gets there.



But the flat rate book has prices for minor tank rebuild, major tank rebuild, changing a flapper, a fill valve, a supply tube or any single part. All the prices in the book are not just for complete rebuilds.



But in the mind of a flat rater, you upsell and charge as much as you can because you know the more product you touch, the more you make and that is the general consensus that most national plumbing companies follow since they are guided by 25 and 30% margins above and beyond what they charge. That's why I hear of Roto-Rooter guys charging $1200 to replace a toilet and the closet bend back to the stack and was there 2 hours and gone. Hourly rate at that go is around $500/hour and of course, you're making money.

Here's the way the mentality of most flat raters follow in this business on the spectrum that they are worrying about the T&M guys are going out of business?

"Get in, Get out, charge as much as you can because you're not coming back."

A local plumbing shop went flat rate 2 years ago and he lost all his repeat customers, lost all his lead/best service plumbers because charging $250 to rebuild a toilet that cost $100 to the same customer years prior is highway robbery.




And yet mechanics are almost always flat rate. Hmm.

What else do you compare yourself to? I don't fit that mold when we are talking differences of professions across the line. Compare yourself to another plumber to have some credibility to your statement.

But go somewhere to get your vehicle "serviced" and you'll get plugs, points, condenser, oil change, filter changes, and so on. All for one "low" price.

And I'm still waiting to see the buckling customer who had work done by a flat rate plumber who actually agreed with the inflated pricing and spoke highly of the experience. Mainly, there's a reason now why they're talking to me because I'm performing the work at a higher level of respect and professionalism without trying to buy the new 454 chevy motor for my cigar boat I entertain myself and the ladies on the weekend with.



You seem to be arguing that if you're flat rate, you have to charge for a large collection of problems rather than doing a simple repair. Yet, when charging by the hour it's not uncommon to say, "That was a simple job, and you've got time left - is there anything else I can do while I'm here?"


I'm going solely by the consistency and reputation of those who flat rate jobs and keep building the tab like they're pulling the bar at a slot machine at a gambling boat that keeps paying out. There's a point where you leave your reputation as a plumber and now become a victimizer in your attitude that "I deserve more than anyone in charging you for these repairs."


There are flat rate companies that pay commission and train their "techs" to upsell as much as they can. But not all flat rate companies are like that. (I'm certainly not.) Oh, of course not. :rolleyes:

However, it would be irresponsible to work for someone and not tell them that they need some preventative maintenance.

We all do that but it usually doesn't surround $100 bills like flat raters are notorious for doing so.


People don't schedule a new toilet flapper every three years, though perhaps they should. A swollen flapper can flood a house if the fill valve fails. An undetected leak can destroy a cabinet and a floor.

Are you a plumber? Explain how a flapper when leaking floods a house, especially when the contents of the tank is draining into a 2.5" S trap with no obstruction. We all understand the leak theory but when you throw your danger hat on with your flat rate book in front of them discussing all the upcharges they are embarking upon, you know the routine. I don't have to repeat. It's called controlled buying and if you impose the ritual of scare tactics to feed your economic desires, you are no match on my intellect.



Auto manufacturers and oil change shops do schedule preventative maintenance. Flat rate service contracts give at least a yearly inspection of the plumbing to detect those leaks and problems, and usually at a very low price.


And to see that you purposely left out that "very low price"....it's very telling of your agenda of probably why you're here and how you practice your profession of plumbing.

Keep your responses coming as you're my entertainment for today on this subject matter. Nothing worse than greed acting out their intentions to justify the means that it's okay to rip the customer off. And if you're the first flat rater to NOT rip a customer off or leave them with a sore *** after you've blungeoned their checkbook, well....you're special in you're own sort of way. I bet you're one of them fellows that joins plumbing forums with a book to sell "How I make money Flat Rating" so they flock to your idea. Why else would you start here drudging up a nearly 3 year old thread.

Remember, guys like you keep me employed just like unlicensed handymen/plumbers. I bet that feels good being categorized just like you're trying to match a plumber with a auto mechanic. Pfffft.

Continue..

[drtyhands]

I have told this forum this story before,
About 10 years ago when a guy who could not hang in construction because he was not productive enough went to one of the big book service outfits he found himself frustrated because they quit paging him to go to customers houses to replace toilets that needed flappers only.He quit because he could not get himself to do this.

"If I don't rip-em off someone else will.I'm gonna tap this well till it runs dry"
A good buddy told me he quit a company because of this type of view.
gear junkie

This is only the worst horror story.There are an equal amount of hourly plumbers milking the homeowner base:mad:

I.M.H.O.

I am glad This forum can show the readers both sides of this highly debated issue.

Adam:)

[drtyhands]

Dunbar,
I think you and I need to go and get a DNA test.Even though you are better spoken than I;)

[Herk]

Had a friend in florida have a toilet reset which was $300, $200 to replace the shutoff that was leaking, $90 for the trip charge less than 6 miles from her home. Almost $600 for the reset of an existing toilet because the husband blew the wax ring out accidentally.

I can't speak to what the cost of doing business is for the Florida company. I've seen articles about Florida companies and the supertrucks and so on, and yet, I have a hard time imagining any company charging that much for resetting a toilet.

But in the mind of a flat rater, you upsell and charge as much as you can because you know the more product you touch, the more you make and that is the general consensus that most national plumbing companies follow since they are guided by 25 and 30% margins above and beyond what they charge.

I suppose that's why I'm not rich - I've always been one to undersell and then give more than I bid. And when in T&M I would often knock off an hour or two from the 5 - 6 hour bill.

"Get in, Get out, charge as much as you can because you're not coming back."

I heard exactly those words from a Mr. Rooter guy at the counter. It only took him about three years to go bankrupt.

A local plumbing shop went flat rate 2 years ago and he lost all his repeat customers, lost all his lead/best service plumbers because charging $250 to rebuild a toilet that cost $100 to the same customer years prior is highway robbery.

If the expense was too much, I would always offer the option to replace the toilet instead. But when you're sometimes dealing with toilets that are nearly a hundred years old and still have the tank screwed to the wall, the job can get hairy - and take hours. Add up hours and parts, and what does it come to? Add mileage, too, while you're at it. It's been a number of years since I read Frank Blau asking anyone charging less than a hundred an hour to show him his books and prove he was actually making money.

What else do you compare yourself to?

S'cuse me, but you were the one who brought up the windshield wipers. I didn't compare myself to them, but they do use flat rate, as does McDonald's, Albertson's, Techlawn, and most turnkey businesses you'd care to name.

And I'm still waiting to see the buckling customer who had work done by a flat rate plumber who actually agreed with the inflated pricing and spoke highly of the experience.

Well then, do a search for Flat Rate Plumbing on Google, look at the testimonials of customers at the plumbing websites. Somebody must like it.

I'm going solely by the consistency and reputation of those who flat rate jobs and keep building the tab like they're pulling the bar at a slot machine at a gambling boat that keeps paying out. There's a point where you leave your reputation as a plumber and now become a victimizer in your attitude that "I deserve more than anyone in charging you for these repairs."

So why do all the flat rate companies I've seen start out with the dictum that you need to know what it costs you to operate? And why does the DEX phone advertising service say that plumbers are the second-worst people to collect money from? Are they all doing as well as you?

Are you a plumber? Explain how a flapper when leaking floods a house, especially when the contents of the tank is draining into a 2.5" S trap with no obstruction.

Yes, I'm a plumber, and I've been in for repairs when a swollen flapper ruined new floors. Please read what I write and don't claim I say things that I don't. I did not say LEAKING flapper, now, did I? I said SWOLLEN. When they swell to plug the overflow at the bottom, and they can and do, and the fill valve sticks, there's no place for the water to go but out. It wouldn't matter if you had a 15" trapway if the water couldn't get to it. Next time you see an old black rubber flapper sunken into the Douglas valve and it's gotten soft and swollen, imagine how that swollen bulb can plug the rectangular hole at the base of the tube.

Keep your responses coming as you're my entertainment for today on this subject matter. Nothing worse than greed acting out their intentions to justify the means that it's okay to rip the customer off. And if you're the first flat rater to NOT rip a customer off or leave them with a sore *** after you've blungeoned their checkbook, well....you're special in you're own sort of way. I bet you're one of them fellows that joins plumbing forums with a book to sell "How I make money Flat Rating" so they flock to your idea. Why else would you start here drudging up a nearly 3 year old thread.

The reason I am here is what I stated earlier - doing research into flat rate pricing. I've been reading everything I can find on it on the internet for months and I followed a flat rate link to this forum (as well as several others.)

If you think that a one-man shop plumber who lives in a town of 10,000 people and had a personal income around $10k last year is out to get rich writing a book, then enjoy your imaginary world. Nor am I out to destroy my business by charging rates that make my customers' eyes pop. But I do believe, unquestionably, that if I don't do something to make a wee bit more income, I'll soon be on the street corner selling pencils or worse.

After over thirty years in business, you'll be hard-pressed to find a customer who thinks I ripped them off, or who wouldn't hire me again. This morning, I went on a call and charged a $38 deployment fee to stop a leak that the local drain cleaner couldn't find. Oh, but you should have seen the tears in that customer's eyes when I handed him the bad news.

[DUNBAR]

I can't speak to what the cost of doing business is for the Florida company. I've seen articles about Florida companies and the supertrucks and so on, and yet, I have a hard time imagining any company charging that much for resetting a toilet.


Doesn't matter if FLA or Topeka Kansas, the word "flat rate" is usually a situation that customers understand is costly, otherwise you wouldn't be so intrigued to see the dollar signs it generates.







I suppose that's why I'm not rich - I've always been one to undersell and then give more than I bid. And when in T&M I would often knock off an hour or two from the 5 - 6 hour bill.


Within reason and I'll get to that when I get to last few responses on this thread.




I heard exactly those words from a Mr. Rooter guy at the counter. It only took him about three years to go bankrupt.



Now you know why the flat raters spend the big bucks in the yellow pages; the majority don't have repeat business. Some do.....but I bet you're pulling off the numbers to keep those ties, nice and cozy.

If the expense was too much, I would always offer the option to replace the toilet instead. But when you're sometimes dealing with toilets that are nearly a hundred years old and still have the tank screwed to the wall, the job can get hairy - and take hours. Add up hours and parts, and what does it come to? Add mileage, too, while you're at it. It's been a number of years since I read Frank Blau asking anyone charging less than a hundred an hour to show him his books and prove he was actually making money.

Seeing a plumber with a little black book every time there's an unexpected repair dismantles the credibility of the one doing the work. It can be a situation that clearly states that no matter what the repair, it follows someone elses guidelines, not the personal wisdom of the one doing the work.





S'cuse me, but you were the one who brought up the windshield wipers. I didn't compare myself to them, but they do use flat rate, as does McDonald's, Albertson's, Techlawn, and most turnkey businesses you'd care to name.



Well then, do a search for Flat Rate Plumbing on Google, look at the testimonials of customers at the plumbing websites. Somebody must like it.


So its on the internet, must be true. :confused:



So why do all the flat rate companies I've seen start out with the dictum that you need to know what it costs you to operate? And why does the DEX phone advertising service say that plumbers are the second-worst people to collect money from? Are they all doing as well as you?

Anyone needs to know what they charge to operate. That's basic facts found in business 101. I purposely slow pay my phone company not because I don't have money.....it's because every 4-6 months they keep raising my rates to advertise as I won't increase my advertising. So they got me coming and going, I'm a small pea in the pod to those folks and damn straight; I'll use them like a bank if I so desire. :D Bottom line, they always get their money.





Yes, I'm a plumber, and I've been in for repairs when a swollen flapper ruined new floors. Please read what I write and don't claim I say things that I don't. I did not say LEAKING flapper, now, did I? I said SWOLLEN. When they swell to plug the overflow at the bottom, and they can and do, and the fill valve sticks, there's no place for the water to go but out. It wouldn't matter if you had a 15" trapway if the water couldn't get to it. Next time you see an old black rubber flapper sunken into the Douglas valve and it's gotten soft and swollen, imagine how that swollen bulb can plug the rectangular hole at the base of the tube.


Never seen it personally as a plumber but I've worked on those toilets countless times and never seen it brought to that level of disrepair and still be operational on a daily basis.



The reason I am here is what I stated earlier - doing research into flat rate pricing. I've been reading everything I can find on it on the internet for months and I followed a flat rate link to this forum (as well as several others.)

If you think that a one-man shop plumber who lives in a town of 10,000 people and had a personal income around $10k last year is out to get rich writing a book, then enjoy your imaginary world. Nor am I out to destroy my business by charging rates that make my customers' eyes pop. But I do believe, unquestionably, that if I don't do something to make a wee bit more income, I'll soon be on the street corner selling pencils or worse.

After over thirty years in business, you'll be hard-pressed to find a customer who thinks I ripped them off, or who wouldn't hire me again. This morning, I went on a call and charged a $38 deployment fee to stop a leak that the local drain cleaner couldn't find. Oh, but you should have seen the tears in that customer's eyes when I handed him the bad news.


If you've been in business over 30 years and last year you only gain 10 grand in personal income.....that all starts with undercharging a customer, $38 when you should of ignored the feelgood attitude. No one gets a cookie for being nice and the majority of a customer base understands when the plumber arrives at the home, you have to pay the wage or flat rate....that is agreed upon before or at arrival.

When my customers call me they already know my rate, they know my speed and efficiency and my reputation of doing it right without a second guess. If you are in business that long and not making money.....you changing gears and hammering the customer now that your broke is bad PR, along with extending your personal misgivings right at your customer base.

How is that fair? Explain how one's misfortune guides the hand to purposely inflict additional charges at a customer. Building a good reputation as a plumber withstands all financial burdens. If you're undercutting yourself then you got only yourself to blame.

[DuckButter]

I am glad This forum can show the readers both sides of this highly debated issue.

Adam:)

Thats exactly what I been saying.
I think we're all on the same page here with minor differences, regardless of flat rate or hourly, there are extremes...
Plumbers who scare homeowners into doing their own horrendous plumbing because they pay 6 months savings to replace a shower valve....then there are the hacks that decide after 2 years apprenticeship they can fly below radar and lower the bar at rediculous rates.
Sounds like comparing notes instead of bickering on this topic might help accomplish something.

[westcoastplumber]

When I go out to replace a disposal, the two part waste and tailpiece and trap are included in my charge, I check the strainer to make sure it is good, if not I replace it.

When I quote a price to do a waste and overflow, I include the trap replacement in my est, and depending on what the santee looks like, that is included also.

When I do a flapper replacement, I replace the fill valve and the flex, triple check the stop to make sure it is fine, if not, that gets included in the price.

If I go out and give a price to do something, I check everything that I will touch before I start the job, if I miss something, it's on me, I NEVER GO BACK TO THE CUSTOMER TO ASK FOR MORE MONEY. It's my loss if I failed to complete my diagnosis properly. I am the professional.

I also have a statement on my invoice mentioning the full 12 month warrenty, unless I note something on the invoice, or the customer didn't want to do work that I stated needed to be done.

I am very honest with my customers, I charge a quality price for quality work and material.

If you t&m guy's wanna go out and change a disposal for $70.00 for an hour plus the cost of the disposal and a 30% markup on material, go do it.

Ripping off yourself and lowering the industry standards is just as bad as ripping off the customer.

t&m is just as abused as flat rate, it's up to the plumber to be fair.

[woodenstickers]

Hey Westcoast, what is your price for changing a disposal?

Just want some perspective as a thread lurker from the powertools side.:)

[drtyhands]

AAAHCHOOO!!!
Sorry,must be sawdust or something:p

[woodenstickers]

AAAHCHOOO!!!
Sorry,must be sawdust or something:p

Don't worry, I include vacuuming up all saw dust in my quote! Or for a T&M job the customer can choose broom swept, unless I have to add a carpet surcharge...:D

[MrsSeatDown]

:D:D:D:DYou 2 truly made me laugh out loud:D:D:D:D

Here comes the jealous hubby--he is afraid he is missing something:eek:

[drtyhands]

Don't worry, I include vacuuming up all saw dust in my quote! Or for a T&M job the customer can choose broom swept, unless I have to add a carpet surcharge...:D

:D:D:D...That's the spirit STICKERS:D:D:D

[drtyhands]

:D:D:D:DYou 2 truly made me laugh out loud:D:D:D:D

Here comes the jealous hubby--he is afraid he is missing something:eek:

SSSSHHHHHH everyone quiet!!!:p

[ToUtahNow]

SSSSHHHHHH everyone quiet!!!:p

Let's all leave!

Mark :D:D:D

[MrsSeatDown]

SSSSHHHHHH everyone quiet!!!:p

[QUOTE=Let's all leave!

Mark[/QUOTE]


Silly boys! That only works in chat:p I'm still laughing!

[drtyhands]

Let's all leave!

Mark :D:D:D
I can't sleep,I don't know how plumb with a hockey stick.Or how to get it attached to my bags.

[DuckButter]

I can't sleep,I don't know how plumb with a hockey stick.Or how to get it attached to my bags.

Think prefab Adam, when yer not in da mood to burn stuff in high tight spots.
Must be local slang.

[westcoastplumber]

$395.00 includes what I mentioned before, less the basket strainer, includes the cord if needed, includes the new disposal strainer also, that price is for a Pro333, the new evolution series. Done with all in 45 mins, includes the head pressure test, where I fill both sink compartments up with water and drain 3 times.

Includes plastic tubular, obviously brass tubular is an option, at an additional cost.

Someone else, list your price to do the same work...........

[ToUtahNow]

$395.00 includes what I mentioned before, less the basket strainer, includes the cord if needed, includes the new disposal strainer also, that price is for a Pro333, the new evolution series. Done with all in 45 mins, includes the head pressure test, where I fill both sink compartments up with water and drain 3 times.

Includes plastic tubular, obviously brass tubular is an option, at an additional cost.

Someone else, list your price to do the same work...........

I do the same job for $394.50 but it takes me 15 minutes including travel time. However, when I do the same job in Mahattan I have to charge $2,300 to cover the cost of my parking ticket, the cost of insurance and to make the payment on my $120,000 4X4 Jaguar

Sylvan

Mark.

[Herk]

When my customers call me they already know my rate, they know my speed and efficiency and my reputation of doing it right without a second guess. If you are in business that long and not making money.....you changing gears and hammering the customer now that your broke is bad PR, along with extending your personal misgivings right at your customer base.

The plumbers in my town always go broke. One firm that was in business for about forty years went bankrupt about 15 years ago - they had a store and several guys and a lot of business. They went under to the tune of $80,000.

One of the plumber/owners went to driving a schoolbus for a few years, then went back into business. He has a son who went back into the business with him. Now, they're selling vitamins and making more money than they are plumbing. The son still plumbs but is threatening to quit. They're at $70 per.

House plumbers come and go. The area is growing but it's cyclical. An area goes like wildfire for a few years and then gets overbuilt and suddenly there aren't enough houses to keep one plumber busy. Currently, there's one company here with 14 guys. Where are they going to go when the housing bubble's burst reaches here?

Six years ago, I was making three times what I'm making now, and I had money to put into trucks and tools. When the Homey's and the Lowe's began opening around me, the entire demographic of the area changed. Plumbers began moving here because their towns no longer had enough work. Scabs began taking over and got plenty of "training" at the big box stores. And my material sales fell to small parts. My water heater sales disappeared.

How is that fair? Explain how one's misfortune guides the hand to purposely inflict additional charges at a customer. Building a good reputation as a plumber withstands all financial burdens. If you're undercutting yourself then you got only yourself to blame.It's all rather simple, isn't it? The "misfortune" is a simple matter of trying to keep the customers you have by not raising rates while everything around you skyrockets and real income drops. Meanwhile, plumbers in the surrounding larger cities have switched to flat rate. They're coming here and, yes, some of them are exorbitant. Some drain cleaners are charging a minimum of $340 to bring their trailer full of jetters and cameras and snakes to your door. Backhoe operators are charging a minimum of three hours to set up their equipment before they start digging.

My rates didn't grow while the price of fuel tripled and subsequently everything else went up, too. I'm the only full-time service plumber in this town - the others do repair, remodels, service, and new construction - anything they can get. The only thing they don't do is crunch the numbers. The first time I tell a customer it will be $125 per hour, it will be the last job I get.

One thing I've noticed in my research is that hardly any two plumbers charge the same way. One will charge a minimum service charge, plus the hour. Another will charge a low hourly rate with a doubling of the material cost. Some charge portal to portal. Some don't. But the bottom line is, you have to charge what it costs to do business.

Maybe where you are there's plenty of work and you're young enough to work day and night. Maybe you had a large inheritance and don't really need to work at all. Everybody's situation is different. But in a one-man shop, you can only get a limited number of hours per day on the average, even if you have a lot of work.

And six years ago, I had a lot of work. I was turning down about 1/3 of the calls I got because I had all I could handle. I still wasn't making a lot of money, but it was a heck of a lot better than it is now.

You can set your rate where you need to when you have a lot of work. If you get a looki-loo who just wants to know your hourly rate so that they can call all the plumbers in town and find the cheapest one, you don't worry - you aren't hurting. But what if they were all looki-loos? And what if all the other plumbers were making their money on construction and remodeling bids while underselling their service? I see flat rate as a way to handle it.

And the proof's in the pudding. I don't have money for expensive advertising or phone book ads. If I no longer get work, then I made a mistake. On the other hand, if I provide a good service and the price isn't ridiculous, and I can get there quickly and remember to shave and wear a clean outfit, chances are I'll still be in business ten years from now.

Over the last thirty, I've seen a lot of plumbers file bankruptcy in this area, and i've seen others die of a heart attack before their time, not leaving much to their widows. I've seen a lot of "helpers" who never took an apprenticeship course and weren't being paid much.

I intend to treat my customers well, and I intend to charge a reasonable amount. And, coincidentally, it satisfies the growing number of customers who demand a price up front. For me, it's win-win. For you, it's dirty because you've seen the crooks.

If you think that being good at your trade entitles you to a great wage anywhere in the United States, then you haven't been anywhere in the United States.

So what's the real problem here? I think FR is a way to boost my income a bit. You think it's a way to rip people off. I'll keep you posted on how it goes on my end.

[DUNBAR]

Fair enough. Of course I'm looking at the bad. The reason is because I get over scrutinized by my customer base because they've been burned, and now that they've come to me, every single penny counts in their book.

I'm in Greater Cincinnati, Northern Kentucky area and I share the area with over 750 plumbing companies, probably another 200 that don't show up in print that are either just starting out or choose not to walk that walk.

If you chase my posts you'll find out that I'm self-made in my profession due to a mistake of chasing the idea of being a union plumber is secure.

Even though I pinned the union/employer for unkind acts towards me, I suffered a great deal of debt while I wasn't producing income but indirectly I had to borrow at the same time to start my business.

I'm not young at 37 and my health is degrading. I am however the leading plumbing company on my side of the river through Angie's List with no forseeable competition, and I figured out a long time ago to care more about a customer's home than they do. When you care, and you're personable, and you're honest....people don't mind spending money with you at all. They want you back in the future, knowing the guy with knowledge is there.

That won't be me in the short future as I need to hire employees. I can't trust them as far as I can spit, no matter what their credentials. I know, I was one of them and still am. You can't expect a employee to operate like a business owner. It won't happen.

The largest ad I have in the yellow pages is a 3H-S << That's a relatively small in column ad. Since I'm not going to repeat myself, look in that advertising thread I responded to; it has a great deal of what I did to get the phone ringing.

There was a great deal of plumbers in my area that were starving when I was slammed earlier this year. I got so many ways I advertise that I can't keep track of it....and even though it costs me a good amount ($12,000.00) a year, I answer that phone picking and choosing my battles. It wasn't until a couple months ago that I stopped replacing water heaters as I hate doing them, they are dangerous for your back and I'm always getting priced shopped on the damn things. That gets really old but they are nice to replace on a weekend on overtime with multiple code violatons and PRV & Expansion tank needed to control high water pressure.

There were weekends this year where I was grossing more in the 3 day weekend than I was making mon-fri which was nice but physically destructive. Being a workaholic helps with making money; only unless you walk out of a basement door and step on a 2" piece of rebar sticking out of the ground unbeknownst to me this past wednesday. The down time was needed for other reasons to recooperate from this injury this week.

I'm fair to people. I know the sheep from the wolves, but every now and then I get nabbed by a wolf in sheeps clothing. I'm self created in my business and even though I'm wearing elastic stretch pants in my attitude about having work, I've spent 5 years building such a good reputation that people will wait with plumbing problems for me to do the work. It feels good and someday I'll seriously shut my doors down to new clientell like a couple plumbers in my area already have done. <<< Talk about how nice that would be.....that would be terrific.

I've invested wisely and I just started building a second company that is non-related to plumbing, sort of. All of my business contacts and working relationships is making the second tour a breeze with all of the rubbing of shoulders a great satisfaction, knowing that it's going to work out great with it hitting the ground running.

I've given thousands of dollars back to my community in sponsorships/donations and there is a group of core family types that follow the goodness of that logic, and gladly spend money with those like me who give it all to a good cause.

So next time you plant money in the hands of an advertiser, make sure it's going into a local sponsorship of a basketball or baseball team. A local golfing event, a kids outdoor theater that allows kids to watch summer movies at no cost to the families.

The preconceived notion that advertising isn't good if it doesn't produce numbers is utter BS. Advertising is a strange but amazing science and there are billboards I spent 1000's on years ago that people still remember. But then I run a local ad in a newsletter via email and have no clue if it produces or not. It's all a big gamble and have enough out there, it will lead you to calls.

I still haven't changed my mind about flat rate and never will. It sounds like your situation needed the explaining you just put out before my initial responses. I would of responded differently now knowing the geography of your area.

There are home depots and lowes everywhere in my area. It's amazing how many jobs I get where the hack did just enough to do damage, and I'm called to clean up the mess. These types of people will never disappear as long as consumers play the gamble to save a buck.

[Herk]

Even though I pinned the union/employer for unkind acts towards me, I suffered a great deal of debt while I wasn't producing income but indirectly I had to borrow at the same time to start my business.

I started out in the union, in northern lower Michigan. I did my apprenticeship in commercial work. When I started in 1966, anyone who wanted a job in construction could have one, but not everyone could be a union plumber. My father was a plumber who ran crews on schools, a federal building and so on.

By the time my five-year apprenticeship was coming to an end, non-union shops were taking over. They paid less, but worked 12 months per year while union people were either getting laid off for months or travelling. I spent the last year in the shop, stocking shelves and rebuilding pipe wrenches.

Then I came to Idaho, not really knowing at 23 what I wanted to do with my life. "You can always fall back on plumbing if you can't find anything else," the old plumbers told me. Well, the truth was, I could only find plumbing jobs. I spent a couple of years doing maintenance at a state hospital. When I tired of that, I got a journeyman's license and I moved up to the panhandle for a year and took over for a plumber who had died. The state allowed me to work alone because there were no other plumbers in the area.

But it was a depressed area that depended on lumber mills and when the mills were slow, so was the money. I moved back to the SE Idaho area and went to work for Boise Cascade, the only journeyman in the plant that turned out hundreds of houses per year. Two years later, I got my contractor's license and went into business.

I started with about $3,000 - bought a service body truck for $1,500 and some tools. That first year, I had no idea how to run a business. I'd ask the customer how much they thought the job was worth.

I had plenty of work. Heh. At the end of the year, the storage I'd rented was empty, and I owed the supply houses $14,000. I knew a change was in order. I started charging more. I had hired about five employees by then, and they were all pretty worthless. But I latched onto one who was not only a good employee, but who taught me a lot of what he'd learned regarding charging for houses. During the next year, I paid back the supply houses and made probably the best income I've had in 31 years.

Then the areas I was working in got overbuilt. The employee left for a bigger plumbing company that had backhoes, lots of trucks and so on. He said he had to think of his kids, and he got fifteen cents per hour more and insurance.

He'd come to shoot the bull after work and brag about how great the company was doing. I said, "Don't you see what's happening? He's getting ready to file bankruptcy. That's why he's buying so much stuff." Of course, that was just impossible.

Two weeks later, Wally's Plumbing filed bankruptcy and dumped on each of the local suppliers for about $50k each.

Since then, I've been on my own. At times, house plumbing was my only work. When it would get overbuilt again, I'd switch back to service and remodeling. After the last crunch about ten years ago, I began to have a hard time getting draws, and eventually just quit it and did service full-time because it's hard for a one-man shop to operate with 30-day accounts and have a contractor holding five or six thousand bucks for two months. I thought that I could have more control over my pricing in service.

But as Ellen Rohr said in "Where did the money go?" I never could figure out why there wasn't any money left after paying the expenses. That's when I ran into Frank Blau in the trade magazine, and I ordered Numbers Cruncher at $250.

Frank says that you need to know what it costs you to do business. I say that you have to know what it should cost you to do business. In other words, if you don't have a shop, what would it cost you per year to have one? If you aren't advertising, how much should you spend?

So I ran Numbers Cruncher with advertising, a set amount per year for trucks and maintenance, insurance, the whole shebang. I thought that in the service business, you can't grow, build up stock, put up a building, add employees or anything else if you don't have profit, so I set the profit margin at 30% and I came up with an hourly rate of $165. That was with a projected $40k yearly salary.

At the time, which was probably nine years ago, I was crestfallen. With hourly rates at about $65 per hour, I knew that the first job i charged out at anything over a hundred would probably be the last job I did. Bad news travels fast. "You've got to bite the bullet," said the industry mavens. But I knew that there's a difference between biting the bullet and charging what you have to in an urban area and a rural, low-populated area.

I eventually raised the rate a little, and found that for years I was the highest in the area. I simply couldn't go any higher and keep customers. I certainly couldn't hire anybody, considering what it would cost to keep them in trucks, tools, insurance, and decent wages, even during the times when I had a lot of work.

But as I said, there is now an influx of out-of-staters in the area who are used to higher costs. The town of 10,000 has grown to about 11,000, but the surrounding county continues to grow a lot, and it's projected that it will continue to grow for another ten years. That's part of what helped me decide to switch to FR. And talking to a FR plumber from another town who pulled in $60k last year working for someone else was also a strong influence.

When selling vitamins brings in more money than plumbing, you have to consider your options.

I'm not young at 37 and my health is degrading.

Wait 'till you're 59 and the tendinitis in your hands makes it hard for you to pick things up and you realize you have no retirement or health insurance; when you hear that loud snap in your back and find yourself on the ground and the water heater you were pulling up the stairs takes out a wall in the basement . . .

That won't be me in the short future as I need to hire employees. I can't trust them as far as I can spit, no matter what their credentials.

As I mentioned, I had one good one, out of five. I could trust him to go to work if I had to leave town for a day or two. But by the end of the year he worked for me, he wanted to borrow my truck and tools to do weekend jobs on the side. ::sigh::

The largest ad I have in the yellow pages is a 3H-S

The year I had a 3/4" ad in the yellow pages, I got less work than the previous year. They probably aren't related, but you can't pay for more advertising when you're behind on house payments and the supply house is cutting you off. It's too early to tell if the FR is going to make a big difference, but I did recently pay off a pickup - very high payment that was really hurting. (I wouldn't have bought it if I'd known I was suddenly going to take the big customer hit.)

I'm fair to people. I know the sheep from the wolves, but every now and then I get nabbed by a wolf in sheeps clothing.

I think I am, too. I have very few collection problems. I have a couple of landlords or property managers who I have to find to collect, otherwise I almost always collect as soon as I'm done. About one or two people per year turn out to be deadbeats, and seldom for a very large amount.

I've invested wisely and I just started building a second company that is non-related to plumbing, sort of.

I haven't got anything to invest, but I do computer work in the basement as a side job. It brings in an extra few thou a year.

But then I run a local ad in a newsletter via email and have no clue if it produces or not. It's all a big gamble and have enough out there, it will lead you to calls.

Sometimes. I've tried everything from radio to giving away pens, to local newspaper and so on. I seldom get any perceivable return. My theory is that people open the yellow pages and go down the list until they find somebody home. Most of the time, there's nothing but an answering machine.

There are home depots and lowes everywhere in my area. It's amazing how many jobs I get where the hack did just enough to do damage, and I'm called to clean up the mess. These types of people will never disappear as long as consumers play the gamble to save a buck.

I agree. I've seen so many radiator-hose p-traps and flooded kitchens and plugged relief valves that I can't believe more houses don't just sink into the muck.

I recently talked to someone from Washington state who works for a company that provides services to such places as Lowe's and Home Depot. He told me that although some of the "techs" are certified, many aren't, and the companies aren't very careful about policing the people who install water heaters and dishwashers and so on. These sorts of people shouldn't be competition at all, but they have the power of a corporation backing them and they're getting away with a lot.

Codes vary all over the U.S., and here there is little to no enforcement. If there's a new building going up, you'll usually get a visit from a state inspector. But if someone wants to go out and scab plumbing, it's unlikely they'll ever be caught. And as I mentioned earlier, there seems to be a whole new category of "specialty licenses" in effect that allows these people to work legally or quasi-legally. If you live in a place where code enforcement is strong, consider yourself lucky.

[Herk]

I just received a note and a bonus check from a flat rate customer. To quote:

"Steve, Thanks for your honest services and hard work!
T.J. $ Setsuko"

The check's not much, but the note goes in my files.

[DUNBAR]

I read your response twice, first time I couldn't respond.

My situation is completely different from yours and it's either my technique or something that's different. I am in an area where there's tons of plumbers but the work is just there.

This week is slow but I have my 2nd business to contend with *spending money which hurts* but I'm lining up calls that are set to go next week and into the 2nd week of november.

Initially I gauged every single facet of advertising of "what makes me money" and then I finally just threw that out the window. Reason? Multiple advertising outlets work together in your favor, constantly drumming the name into people's heads so that when they do go to the yellow pages, my name looks familiar.

There's a indoor sports complex in my area that I've had a banner up for a year, this year for a $150 more I got to enlarge one banner on the indoor soccer field to a 5' by 8' and now a 3' by 5' in the basketball gymnasium.

Not one call has come out of that building and I'm going on 16 months without a return. That doesn't mean the advertising doesn't work when it doesn't generate calls. I promise it's working because of the 1000's of people that visit this place, the location of the advertising inside the building and how often it grabs people from the entire area where its located.

There are people that have indirectly seen my advertising and never could relate to where they've seen my signs before, but they know that my name stuck out on the page when they called.

Having multiple legs of advertising produces the best results, be everywhere you can and that's how you brand your name.

Paper business cards never work; business magnets? Make a nice one and even if they don't use you again, it will remain on their fridge. I have a magnet that looks like it was made of copper with a black background. It's Krome-coat and you'd really think it was copper from the shine it has. Eye candy is what it is and that sort of thing is harder to pitch in the garbage than a paper card that usually gets lost or found when you have to clean your purse/wallet.

I just spend X amount of dollars on advertising a year, consider it just the cost of doing business. The rest of the equation results of call volume whether it be new business and/or repeat customer base.

I do know that there are tons of handyhacks here in my area as well and that's just what I have to deal with. There's a select few that need punishment but trying to stop them is impossible.

I just had a call come in from a emergency call I did a month ago, the guy is trying to get me to install a dishwasher without an Air Gap and I won't budge. I told him I apologize but I'll pass on the work before I'll consider going against code to prevent a hole in your new granite countertop. He's a traveller and since 5 states didn't require it, he feels that he can make a choice to not include the application.

If he doesn't call me back I'm totally fine with the reasoning, because I stand firm on mine more than he does his. I know I won't go against code just to make a dollar and he's asking me to do this on a friday evening. ???

Lack of codes in your area can really make it tough for the licensed. That problem starts at the top and works down.

[Herk]

business magnets? Make a nice one and even if they don't use you again, it will remain on their fridge.

I have used magnetic cards. Usually, I make my own using peel-off magnets and pre-perf cards. But the krome sounds like a good idea, too. Sometimes, people ask me if I have a card, and I always carry them.

I just had a call come in from a emergency call I did a month ago, the guy is trying to get me to install a dishwasher without an Air Gap and I won't budge.

They aren't required here, but a high loop is. It's very often that I run into one done by an appliance company and it doesn't even have the high loop. (Hose fastened to the counter or wall beneath the sink.) The only time I have to replace backflow preventers is in a manufactured home.

Lack of codes in your area can really make it tough for the licensed. That problem starts at the top and works down.

Aside from the lack of backflow preventer, we do have a reasonably good code - it's the enforcement that's lacking. With a single inspector for about three counties, it's laughable.

Example: I once had a call from a property manager to replace a water heater. Then, he called me back and said that the owner had somebody named Joe to do it. "Joe, who?" I asked. No idea.

So I drove by the house, a rental, and there was "Joe's" truck pulled up to the back door, with a hose strung out into the yard. Joe was a Hispanic guy with a shell on his pickup and coveralls, probably works nights at a potato warehouse doing maintenance.

A block away on the same street, there was excavation going on and the plumbing inspector was standing there speaking to a backhoe operator. So I went up to him and asked if he was going to do anything about the unlicensed hack.

"I suppose I'll have to," he said, "More paperwork."

I followed up on it. The owner told the inspector he was doing the work and Joe was just helping him. Last I heard, a rental means responsibility to the public and owners can't work on the plumbing, but I suspect that's simply overlooked. The property manager said that the owner called him and was wild about "Some guy wanted me to take out a permit!"

The manager asked who the guy was. Was he a state inspector?

"I don't know."

I doubt they ever got the permit or followed it up.

I got called out for a ceiling leak once. The house was plumbed with all the tees on their backs, no protection for the PB tubing, and all hot and cold pipes bundled together - obviously a DIY job. The house was only three years old and the people had bought it, and when they began having problems, they called the state inspector to get an inspection, to see if there was something wrong with the plumbing.

The inspector made an appointment and never showed up. They called and scheduled another appointment. He still didn't show up. They finally gave up.

The leak turned out to be a PB line that had rubbed itself raw where it went unprotected through the floor.

The last house that I plumbed before I gave up houses altogether was a remodel leaving the original building sewer. The 4" test rig leaked on the old pipe, so I had to stay there and keep the water in the stacks topped off while i waited for an inspection. The inspector was four hours late. His excuse was that he had been teaching homeowners how to plumb.

[gear junkie]

Now this is good discussion on business pricing. Two guys (Dunbar and Herk) stating their views and experiences without insulating each other. This is the way a flat rate discussion should be.

[DuckButter]

Herk, ya got me depressed.
I wonder if maybe you need to advertize...
Word of mouth is number one, but there's a catch 22 on that, if you do a job on the cheap it's likely they'll mention it to a relative or friend and so on, and so on.
I've learned that the hard way, do a cheap faucet replacement for Sally and her husbands aunt calls you two months later asking/expecting you to do it at the same price for her, or doesn't call you back when you quote the regular price.
My jaw is agape, still unsure if you made a typo with the 10K mention, but there's no possible way you could sustain a living at that rate.
I think I'm lucky, like Dunbar, to be in a better area.
On a positive note, this topic isn't so bad afterall.
A little wordy maybe, but you guys have kept the differences civil.
Herk, I for one am glad you found this forum, welcome.

[Josh]

Good to see some civil discussion on a tough topic. I thought I may drop into this thread and see some arguments but instead its just discussion. Nice job guys.

Welcome to the forum Herk!

[plumbdog10]

Good to see some civil discussion on a tough topic. I thought I may drop into this thread and see some arguments but instead its just discussion. Nice job guys.

Welcome to the forum Herk!

Josh,

This thread is boring. Watch me fire it up.

Just kidding.

[ToUtahNow]

I think you guys would be surprised at the money some people have to live on in rural areas. My son-in-law is a full-time fire fighter/paramedic on the Utah/Idaho border and only grosses around $30,000 a year. In Southern California the same job pays $84,000. To supplement his income he also has worked after hours as a fork lift driver, a respiratory therapist and a brick layer. Many of the people in those areas are DIYs out of need and rarely can afford to hire a pro.

Mark

[mrs. westcoast]

Yeah Where are flat r..p..ers?:confused::D:) Babe? Kidding..

My hubby is the greatest flaterrrrr:p;)

[ToUtahNow]

Josh,

This thread is boring. Watch me fire it up.

Just kidding.

LOL-You do have that talent.

Mark

[mrs. westcoast]

I think you guys would be surprised at the money some people have to live on in rural areas. My son-in-law is a full-time fire fighter/paramedic on the Utah/Idaho border and only grosses around $30,000 a year. In Southern California the same job pays $84,000. To supplement his income he also has worked after hours as a fork lift driver, a respiratory therapist and a brick layer. Many of the people in those areas are DIYs out of need and rarely can afford to hire a pro.

Mark

Wow,

Teachers are the same. Robs sister lives in nc,she works as a teacher during the day and during the weekend or night she works as a security guard for the school...

She makes around 30,000 too...And even with 2 jobs,she cannot put money in savings..Just to pay off her student loan is......$$$

[ToUtahNow]

Wow,

Teachers are the same. Robs sister lives in nc,she works as a teacher during the day and during the weekend or night she works as a security guard for the school...

She makes around 30,000 too...And even with 2 jobs,she cannot put money in savings..Just to pay off her student loan is......$$$

His wife (my daughter) is a school teacher but they decided being a stay at home mom for the kids right now is more important. She does just enough temping at her kids school to keep her credentials current.

My son in law was offered a job in Anaheim where he would make an extra $55,000 per year at a station there but they cannot afford to buy a home in Anaheim. That is why they decided to build a new home in Utah and stay there. The home they just built cost them $120,000 to build including the lot. Their new house is 2,400 sq ft with a 2,400 sq ft walk out basement. Try to do that in Southern California.

Mark

[Herk]

My jaw is agape, still unsure if you made a typo with the 10K mention, but there's no possible way you could sustain a living at that rate.

I wish it was a typo. But I should qualify it. I was making payments on a pickup, and since credit is always a problem with low income, the interest was nearly 12%. So I was spending nearly $600 on the payment - on a loan that was taken in better times. If you add the $7,000 per year to the personal income, it would make the income more like $17,000. And since I just paid it off last month, that's $7k per year I no longer have to come up with. The actual adjusted gross income on my taxes was more like $2,200, with write-offs. Last year, I couldn't write it off anymore and the adj. gross was more like $7,000. No, I can't live on it. How does he do it?

About the same time I took out a loan on the pickup, I took one out on the house. I was doing much better then and didn't think the payments would be a problem. Those who say that a Home Depot or a Lowe's opening in the area shouldn't affect business are full of it. In a small, low-income area, it affects it a lot. Someone made the comment on a plumbing forum once: "So, do they fix their own teeth, too?" Well, chances are, they don't see a dentist much, either.

Over thirty years ago, I bought my house for $9,000. (No, that's not a typo, either.) My insurance company tells me the structure would now cost $140,000 to replace. You might say I've done a lot of work - like hand-digging and building a 9' basement beneath it.

I think I'm lucky, like Dunbar, to be in a better area.Of course. But then, there are pluses and minuses to areas - here, not much in the way of gangs or drive-by shootings, though that may change as more people come into the area. OTOH, incomes are not great. There's a great disparity - 1 in 5 have a living wage, yet Idaho has been known to have a higher per capita number of millionaires. I suspect it's not money but land that makes them millionaires - there are a lot of farms, after all. In a drought year, Idaho can supply about 80% of the potatoes for the U.S.

And of course there's a high migrant population.

On a positive note, this topic isn't so bad afterall.No - there's no reason not to talk about the differences in doing business - nor is there any reason to refrain from pointing a finger at those in the industry who gouge the customers. I remember being aghast at the attorney general of an eastern state taking down a large plumbing company that had been sending out unlicensed "techs" in most of his trucks - I was amazed that they allowed non-plumbers to work for the public. But now, that seems to be a very common thing with the specialty licenses some states are issuing.


Herk, I for one am glad you found this forum, welcome.Thank you. I'm enjoying it.

[1plumber]

ive read alot of your posts, but one thing you are missing is this..how much would you charge to go to some strangers house and work on there toilet, the place where they crap,..to change thier toilet flapper.?..i charge 140.00 flat fee when it comes to work on somebodies crapper, plus parts,plus taxes. in the end they are easily looking at 200.00 bucks. is it worth it? well,..depends on how much is it worth to you to have a operational toilet..guess you could head out back in the bushes

[westcoastplumber]

ive read alot of your posts, but one thing you are missing is this..how much would you charge to go to some strangers house and work on there toilet, the place where they crap,..to change thier toilet flapper.?..i charge 140.00 flat fee when it comes to work on somebodies crapper, plus parts,plus taxes. in the end they are easily looking at 200.00 bucks. is it worth it? well,..depends on how much is it worth to you to have a operational toilet..guess you could head out back in the bushes



LOL, good post, made me laugh.

how much is it worth you to have a shower, hot water, a place to crap....good point.

sadly, there are fellow "plumbers" who don't think this way and are cheapining the trade.

It all lays in the customers hands now. I have been blessed with customers that expect to pay for excellent customer service, good products and overall a love for their house and the trade.

[JCsPlumbing]

So.... is someone suggesting that we all unionize and just have one universal price?

My experience is that any business can charge as much as the market will bear. Basic economics.

I understand some economics educators teach that in alot of businesses now to not worry about repeat customers and just go for the "churn" of the new customer. Which is directly opposed to the traditional business model.

So, Flat Rate or Time & Materials? In the end, it doesn't matter.

All people will do whatever it takes to maximize their business while staying in business.

J.C.

[Gene Bickford]

So.... is someone suggesting that we all unionize and just have one universal price?

My experience is that any business can charge as much as the market will bear. Basic economics.

I understand some economics educators teach that in alot of businesses now to not worry about repeat customers and just go for the "churn" of the new customer. Which is directly opposed to the traditional business model.

So, Flat Rate or Time & Materials? In the end, it doesn't matter.

All people will do whatever it takes to maximize their business while staying in business.

J.C.


That is the best and truest comment I have read on this never ending debate.

[ToUtahNow]

Wow it's nice to see this didn't start the typical debate. I've heard Rick is studying up on flat-rate pricing but I won't hold my breath. The bottom line is there are honest people doing T&M and there are honest people doing flat-rate.

Mark

[DuckButter]

Wow it's nice to see this didn't start the typical debate. I've heard Rick is studying up on flat-rate pricing but I won't hold my breath. The bottom line is there are honest people doing T&M and there are honest people doing flat-rate.

Mark
I knew this topic didn't have to be such a taboo.
Both sides have great points.

[oldslowchevy]

i think bouth methods suck, it should just be free, i mean come on now where else can you play with other peoples crap?:rolleyes:

[drainman881999]

To Herk and WestCoast Plumbing-Where did you obtain your Flate Rate Pricing Manual? Or did you gentleman make your own?

[westcoastplumber]

To Herk and WestCoast Plumbing-Where did you obtain your Flate Rate Pricing Manual? Or did you gentleman make your own?


I have my own numbers.

I used to use Trade Service. They are way out there on somethings, and way under on others.

There are companies that can design a system for you.

http://www.callahan-roach.com/plumbing.asp

the best way to do it is to study your own financial outlook and goals, build it yourself.

[drainman881999]

To WestCoastPlumbing-Thanks Robert,I have been charging homeowners a flat rate for appx.8 yrs. now.The Last time I attended the Pumper and Cleaner Show in Nashville,There was a fellow at State Wide's Supply's booth selling a flat rate manual.But I bid not purchase it.I'am glad to see its working for you.You and Mrs Robert keep up the good work and the good postings.

[Herk]

I made my own, but plan to purchase one eventually. I would like to be able to do such things as global price changes.

I'm constantly tweaking it - adding new tasks and changing prices that aren't working.

[drainman881999]

Thanks Herk, I have some of your posts.Like you,I aslo have fell on tough economic times.Mine do to very serious injuries resulting from a fall off a ladder appx. 5 yrs. ago,then about 3 months later being involved in an auto. accident breaking the frame of my truck also re-aggravating a slipped disc.after finally listening to my doctor.I took off for18 months,thus losing most of my customers both residental and commercial.Now I no longer run a dollar bill sized ad in the phone books.Instead I sometimes hang doorhangers,move slowly,learned to use a computer somewhat,learned to like t.v.somewhat,work with what i have . I don't know what you use to unclog drains with.but i purchased a k-60-3 weeks after my ankle was shattered determined to keep my customers serviced.After going from one helper to three 5 months later,I shut down, because I was still having to drag out the bed and work.Just image 3 people to crank a jetter,lay out 120' of hose,and jet under a dldg. 80' c/o to c/o.not a stoppage just a planned 90 day maintence this taking 3 hrs! I typed all of this not for sympathy,just to say, I feel you and from what you posted I think you have a grip on your situation.------Only remember cable t.v,plasma t.v.,new cars,computers,internet connections, and tons of new shoes cost money, don't put your prices last.Hope I did not speak out of hand,its just tough starting over.

[ToUtahNow]

drainman881999,

I feel your pain as I too had a ladder accident 4-years ago. I broke my leg and shoulder in several places and neither are working properly yet. I'm sure the surgeons are done trying to make things better so what I have is what I have. However, life happens and what doesn't kill us makes us stronger. Dont give up the fight and good luck with your recovery both physically and financially.

Mark

[drainman881999]

ToUtahNow, Ain't Life Grand??Hang in there buddy.Thanks for writing.Kenneth

[mtnman1100]

My two cents:

I have worked with flat rate (book) pricing for the past 6 years and yes you do add price for additional work. I always tell the customer "no matter who did this repair, either me, you or the next plumber, this would have needed to be replaced also." I saw a survey about plumbing in Better Homes and Gardens once that said customers prefer up front flat rate pricing.

About pricing though, I'm starting my own company now and I have to charge for all those little things that the state or muni requires. Licenses, insurance, vehicles, insurance, workers comp, unemployment insurance. etc...
Then there is not just me, I have to have a bookeeper and someone to answer the phone. The bigger the company the more people involved with the service, that's why those bigger names charge more.

I have told customers that if they wanted hourly rates that I would work at an hourly pace. Service plumbing is a different beast. Most customers want us in and out quickly but for our fast reliable work they want to pay us less? And another thing when customers equate time on job to amount they should pay, see the other thread about removing tank to bowl bolts in three hours without using a sawzall. If it only takes me 20 minutes to do what it takes a rookie apprentice three hours to do why should I be punished by getting paid less. it was the same amount of work I did it smartly (flat rate pricing +++).
rant over

[jtheplumber]

From a non tradesman's point of view. I am a DIY'r and do most of the work around my house i can do myself. if I overtake something i can not handle (with is not too often) i network, read, hit the internet, etc, get the answer, get it right, and get it done. On occassion though, I have had to call a professional. Lots of people out there in all trades getting too much money per hour than what they should. Yes it costs money to operate, yes materials cost money, yes, labor costs money, overhead, facilities, etc. Licenses,bonds, etc. I for one will not call anyone who will not come out and give me a free estimate. yes it is time. but your time is valuable and my time is valuable. And there are companies out there that want to do more that was needed. We bought a home with a home warranty and the water heater went out. I was out of town when this happened so my wife called the HWA people and they sent out a contractor 100 deductible and the thing was in. not long after i developed a leak near my soil stack. i had a horizintal drain from the sink running into the "t" on the stack. called HWA and found out was not covered (internal leak) so i called roto rooter for a "free estimate" they wanted close to 400 bucks to clean out and repack the joint. i had no idea how to relead a horiziontal pipe. I called the guy who did my water heater for a second opinion and he came out, went back to his truck and grabbed a weird looking chisel and some silicone. he merely tapped the lead back in and put some silicon around it. charged me a 35 dollar service call. he then went on to tell me that if the silicon doesnt stick or i develop any more problems i did not need to call him. he showed me exactly what to do, introduced me to quickrte hydro stop i belive it is called and i have not seen him since. he showed me what i needed to do in order no not have to shell out money everytime i need a simple leak fixed. well i ended up having to drill out that lead, repack with okum, and water stop it. that lasted until the cast iron stack started to seeep. i replaced it all personally with PVC. LONG day, pain in th ***, but saved a bunch of money.

my point? dont rip people off on the simple ****! if someone calls you to do what ends up being replacing a flapper or a simple toilet adjustment, charge them for that. you get the part wholesale, sell it to them retail and charge them a few bucks to put it on. i dont think there should be such a thing as a "flat rate", i'd never call you if you were going to charge me 79 or 89 bucks just to show up.

i do not believe that hourly pricing works/flat rate pricing. show up, see what needs to be done, quote a fair price and you will have plenty of business.

i am currently getting my house sided and new windows. for siding alone i got estimates from 7000-15000.00

i was going to research it and do it myself in the spring. i figured i'd start in the back and get the hang of it and then once i figured it out would move th the sides and front.

got a contractor to give us another bid, and he is doing windows and siding, for less than 1000.00. premium windows, premium siding and he is essentially been a one man show so i have been working with him and learning. he admits that most of these siding contractors are getting too much money per square foot. He beieves in a fair price for the money. there were three homes sided on my block by those big guys over the summer. w