TS3650 Arbor

[ld]

Greetings,

I just received a replacement Abror from Ridgid for te TS-3650. What exactly is the nature of this problem, and does anyone know if it affects all TS-3650's? Of just those within a certain manufacturing date or serial number?

Thanks!

[ 02-15-2005, 05:15 PM: Message edited by: ld ]

[daveferg]

There's loads of threads on this subject. It appears to be a hit or miss proposition.

[imported_maineman]

My understanding is there were 2 issues.
You would not notice either issue unless you were using a stacked Dado set.

Issue 1. A groove cut (inattentive tooling run we suspect) below surface of the arbor thread OD, about 3/32" wide, something like .007" deep, beginning about 5/64" out from the face of the arbor flange. In theory your first chipper blade of a dado set up would not be squarely supported. Arguments in threads here ran the gamut. Big prob - trivial prob - given dado layers support each other. Others just thought rpm's made it a dangerous thing. Ordinary blades are fine since they're sitting on a true OD shoulder next to flange.

Issue 2. The overall length of the arbor exposure from face of arbor flange. Supposedly they were having some made that are supposedly 1/8" longer. Otherwise you could not use all of the chippers for maximum width cut of your dado set. You could still use an adjustable dado just fine, but stacked dado's are way to go.

As for installation, majority reports say you won't blow warranty if you don't butcher something yourself doing the replacement. Otherwise, no charge if you take the whole saw to a service center. Leave saw. Go fetch saw when it's ready. Not imagining they're paying for fuel.

You'll need snap ring pliers. ($20 at HD. Or $10 at an auto supply or home town hardware store.)

[imported_Bob D.]

"Issue 2. The overall length of the arbor exposure from face of arbor flange. Supposedly they were having some made that are supposedly 1/8" longer."

I remember this being discussed, but never heard anything about the possibility that Ridgid was going to offer a longer arbor. I was one who whined that a longer arbor would be nice since they were going to be making new arbors, but there was nothing from Ridgid that I saw in writing on this forum or elsewhere, nor do I remember anyone telling of this coming up in phone conversations with anyone from Ridgid when they called to discuss the arbor problem.

I'd still like to see it happen, and incorporated into future saws. There should be no free retrofit for current owners (and I fall into that category). But if Ridgid made them available at a reasonable price (I thinking in the ~$20 range) I would buy one to be able to get the full capacity of my dado set.

[imported_maineman]

Bob D.

"There should be no free retrofit for current owners ..."

Where exactly are you coming from with that assessment?

I might normally agree. An announced recall would only prohibitively inflate costs of future saws when they did do a good job design-wise on this overall saw value.

However, the way management of these companies is choosing to handle the other defect (recess), which is to cower from honorably dealing with a poor "supplier" or in-house qc issue, namely, trying to sneak these out of the store and into ownership, then handle complaints on a case by case basis, indicates to me that for some reason they are not justified in going after the supplier. -- all indicates to me that they might be trying to profit from this - 1. by going after the arbor vendor behind the scenes, while still trying to get top dollar from retail customers on the front end, portraying the saw in every other way as being a pro caliber machine.

Yes I'd pay $20. And if they tasked their engineering people with doing up a comprehensive guide pamflet for end users to do the retrofit at home, and if they (HD) sold the snap ring pliers for under 80% clear profit ($20 vs. $10 anywhere else) there wouldn't be much reason why they'd have to worry as much about liability, cost-overrun in added service center loads or customer dissatisfaction.

Mistakes happen.

But you don't get things to happen by taking such a conciliatory stance from the get go.

Thanks for your comment but I'm really scratching my head wondering how you could stand by and watch these saws still going out of the stores at over $700 bucks in some cases.

[imported_Bob D.]

My comment concerns changing the arbor length on future saws. I did not mean that the replacement arbors for the current saws should not be free as it has been.

If a company chooses to upgrade a product, previous owners do not automatically get the upgrade.

If Ford or Chevy came out with a new motor (same CID, etc) that offered imporved MPG or greater power than the one in a truck I just bought should I get a the new upgraded motor for free?

If Ridgid choose to make the design change and increase the length of the arbor by .250" or whatever it takes to fit a full width dado and still have a full nut of engagement I think that is good and that is what I was referring to, nothing more.

[imported_maineman]

Bob D.

Yeah. Apologies here. I was reading after I wrote that some of your input on other threads and realized I must have misunderstood something. You've made very good observations and hope you'll stay tuned.

I got the current replacement installed today. Was unbelievably simple compared to how much of a deal everyone was making about it. Never had to do more than to lower and tilt the carriage, bearings stayed in place just fine. Filed down a burr on the key caused by the pulley set screw.

Put on a new blade and turned out the new blade is cupped by about .0035" but everything else held pretty good. Some minor vibrations but will realign the motor and belt tomorrow.

And down the road we'll go to see about the length I guess.

Don't touch that dial now, y'here?

[Lorax]

Originally posted by maineman: Issue 2. The overall length of the arbor exposure from face of arbor flange. Supposedly they were having some made that are supposedly 1/8" longer. Otherwise you could not use all of the chippers for maximum width cut of your dado set. You could still use an adjustable dado just fine, but stacked dado's are way to go.Are you making this up as you go along, or what? :rolleyes: The 3650 arbor is 1 1/8" long. More than enough for a 13/16" stacked dado and still get a full nut. What's the problem?

[daveferg]

You got me! I pointed it out on another thread---guess they didn't believe me. :rolleyes:

[imported_maineman]

Lorax - problem is if you have a 29/32" max width dado, you're going to have a chipper in the box for the rest of it's life. Unless you're working with that new math or something.... 1-1/8+1/8 = 1-1/4" which is what the arbor ought to be measuring. As far as I can remember I did not mention an overall length, so you kinda gotta follow along here, k?

And BadgerDave - half the time on here you kinda sound like you're just telling everybody what they're hoping to hear... that the 3650 is the truly professional saw they thought they were getting. No wonder Ridgid doesn't do much monitoring of these issues. All ya really need is a couple o guys in denial.

Bottom line is even the new replacement arbor should have been long enough to accomodate the stabilizer washer. And yes gentlemen even at the 13/16" limitation.

So let's try to help you out now. Put 29/32" of Freud on this arbor and you only get 3 and half turns of that washer which means you only have the washer 75% of the way on. If I want a dado that's 57/64" I'm still screwed. And so on down to good old 13/16" (aka 52/64") which - gee - maybe that 13/16" limitation was prominently displayed on the outside of the box or at the beginning of the assembly instruction, huh?

I know. I'll just have you guys come over and reasure my employees that it's safe to run that way.

Men. please. Don't run and hide on this willya? It doesn't become either of you.

[imported_maineman]

Correction:

which means you only have the washer 75% of the way on.

should be:

which means you only have the NUT 75% of the way on.

[Lorax]

Originally posted by maineman:
"Lorax - problem is if you have a 29/32" max width dado, you're going to have a chipper in the box for the rest of it's life".

Problem is, you're the one that bought an accessory that won't fit your saw. Doesn't sound very professional to me.

"Unless you're working with that new math or something.... 1-1/8+1/8 = 1-1/4" which is what the arbor ought to be measuring. As far as I can remember I did not mention an overall length, so you kinda gotta follow along here, k"?

The arbor has always been 1 1/8" long. Max dado has always been 13/16". Try to keep up, k?

"And BadgerDave - half the time on here you kinda sound like you're just telling everybody what they're hoping to hear... that the 3650 is the truly professional saw they thought they were getting. No wonder Ridgid doesn't do much monitoring of these issues. All ya really need is a couple o guys in denial".

B]Or one malcontent beating a dead horse into the ground.

"Bottom line is even the new replacement arbor should have been long enough to accomodate the stabilizer washer. And yes gentlemen even at the 13/16" limitation".

What part of "The washer is not required when using a stacked dado" don't you understand ?

"So let's try to help you out now. Put 29/32" of Freud on this arbor and you only get 3 and half turns of that washer which means you only have the washer 75% of the way on. If I want a dado that's 57/64" I'm still screwed. And so on down to good old 13/16" (aka 52/64") which - gee - maybe that 13/16" limitation was prominently displayed on the outside of the box or at the beginning of the assembly instruction, huh"?

If you had read the instructions before buying your fancy dado set, you wouldn't have a problem now, at least not the same problem. I'm sure you could find something else to cry about.

"I know. I'll just have you guys come over and reasure my employees that it's safe to run that way".

B]I can reassure your employees that their boss is a, oh never mind![/B]

"Men. please. Don't run and hide on this willya? It doesn't become either of you".

If anyone should run and hide it's you! I can't believe anyone would make such a big stink over such a trivial thing. What do you need that extra 3/32" for anyway?[/b]

[ 02-18-2005, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: Lorax ]

[imported_maineman]

This is what you get for trying to be helpful to some people.

Live with it then. Doesn't mean we have to be tail kissers too.

[imported_maineman]

Oh.

Try and go cut a few hobby dados if it bothers you that much?

As I've said previously that's just the point. I am @#!@$%$% embarassed. See Lorax counting to see how many characters that is.

Sheesh.

Lorax. What is your problem man.
Read my other posts on the issue. Anyone doing more than a few hobby dados, say a couple of thousand productio rabbets of 2" wide to be exact, would also maybe kinda sorta appreciate the 3/32" after a while.

And I did come to this site before I purchased the saw, and at the time nobody had the stones or any dadoing experience enough to have complained about the first damned problem let alone the next one on the plate.

This thread is clearly about the 3650 arbor and I fail to see what you think we're all supposed to be doing here except maybe having some kind of what, love fest?

Here's where I might allude to someone's behind closed doors orientation but I'm not sure this guy wouldn't lose it. Or can he be reasonable and try to contribute something of value.

Okay fine Lorax. You love and care for the saw and the group more than me. Alright? You can be king. I honestly don't care about that crap. You'll also learn I will tire of trying to kiss up to you. I'm sorry but you will learn that I don't have much time for honoring some nonsense protocol to a bunch of guys who just sit around making snide comments and acting like they own the place.

If you guys had been doing justice to this site all along I would have found the info and you're right, for all the time I've lost just to be able to do a close to squarish 1/4" dado, I could have purchased a mid-range Grizzly.

How much truth can you handle, L.

[imported_maineman]

And one more thing Lorax.

You're so good at the HTML stuff, where's the photo of the saw carton box that clearly states not recommended for "fancy dado sets"?

C'mon man, lighten up.

[imported_maineman]

Here's another thing Lorax.

Don't underestimate the the power of a large corporation to mislead you.

Where was I going to find a manual so that I could read this ahead of time. Are you aware that reviewers get perks for looking the other way on specs these days?

This arbor may well have been designed to go into a table top saw. Parts, nay a rather substantial inventory of parts, may well have been just hanging around after a model faze out. So unless, or especially if, you are a hack for the company, you're probably better off not encouraging me here.

The saw is touted as a professional saw. And they came pretty darned close. Close enough to make the saw appear to be throroughly professional. Top of the line as some people on here have pointed out. Therefore it becomes subject to that standard.

It's implied that the machine is capable of doing production work every bit as well as it handles making picture frames or whatever you're doing.

Ya wanna compromise quality? That's your business. Please don't try to foist it on us.

Start a new thread on how to do HTML or something wouldja?

[Andrew M.]

I hit the wall so to speak with this arbor issue and returned the saw. I was not about to do that repair for the for free and still have an arbor that is too short!
I now have a Beismeyer fence, cast iron trunion cab saw, 1 3/4hp for about the same money, sears 22124, even with a really good blade (Leitz). Orion , the manuf.has excellent CS, the best I have ever had. After this ,I will never buy another Ridgid power tool again. It is a joke, all the mods,taking the saw apart,the time wasted, no repairs centers close buy even in the LA basin, for most of us here, they are few and spread out. The saw does not cut to the reported max. width b/c the arbor is too short unless you like only a few threads on the nut engaged, with all that spinning mass, not for me. The sears 22124 saw is so much better constructed(over 400 lbs) and designed and you can even leave the arbor alone. This "Ridgid professional tool "thing is just hype,I think you all are kidding yourselves or are in denial. I am still in shock with the Milwaulkee purchase by TTI.
Why would you buy a 3650 when HD had a Delta true contactor saw for $400 now?
This is not a bash but a warning to others before you buy ,THINK!

[imported_Bob D.]

That Delta Contractor saw is not much (if at all) better than the TS3650. Stamped steel extensions, fence is not as good, bevel and height adjustment handwheels are not as good quality and are smaller. The legs look to be made from heavier gauge steel, and I don't know about the arbor length but even if you give them the benefit of the doubt and assume it will handle a ful stack dado it is not enough to tip the scales in its favor over the Ridgid TS. Other than that its no contest between these two saws. I don't think that the TS3650 is the best saw out there, as I've said before had the Craftsman/Orion 22124 been out or even hinted that is was coming out 14 months ago when I bought m 3650, I would have given it a serious look and most likely spent the extra bucks to bring it home instead of the 3650.

[Lorax]

Mainman,
This will be my last post on this subject and then I am going to add you to my ignore list. The following is a quote I cut and pasted from the Freud website.

"The SD500 Series dadoes were the first dadoes to include a 3/32" thick chipper. This allows the cut width to be adjusted in 1/32" increments and doubles the number of slot widths available. Many plywoods are being manufactured 1/32" undersized from the nominal size and this allows you to cut dadoes that will fit these materials with less shimming. We have also included a shim set with the dado for fine adjustments."

The 3/32" chipper is not meant to be added to the 13/16" stacked set to equal 29/32". The chart on the Freud website shows a max width of 27/32"

http://www.freud-tools.com/freudsdserch.html

The Delta Unisaws, Powermatic cabinet saws, Jet cabinet saws, and Grizzley saws all specify 13/16" max dado capacity.

Nuff said.

Buh bye!

[imported_maineman]

Are there any TS review sites that are liklier to list arbor lengths of these various saws all in one place?

Or has anyone already made calls to the manufacturers or learned from other presales research?

And please, yee rabid forum fly gurus, could we please spare the thread the customary "google it" neutralizer, and let some others weigh in first?

thanks

[imported_maineman]

Good effort Lorax.
If that punishes me somehow, I'm still wondering why it hurts so much, but... .

Look, if anyone who goes to that link to see that chart - they also will

NOT see

anything about the propagandic conclusion you reached.

Nowhere does it state on Freud's page the exact conclusion you posted.

Plus, the chart just beneath it - the one near the prices - lists a total of 29/32 - in the same table cell as well -

and the conclusion I draw from that is Freud probably merely "avoids" any textual statement to that effect, about 29/32" because they know these table saws are selling like crazy to knumbnuts like me having been built with dead inventory.

daveferg will only be too happy to tell you how the hierarchy and buyouts have evolved.

Hey. The minute you can post a link to something from a reputably reliable source - which under ordinary circumstances you'd think would be this site - that states your words as fact, (aside: and yes d, actual fact as in don't stretch the fn truth or...)

then and only then do you get to do the hit and run. Or if you like you could also stick around and toss me steak knife and I'll eat all the crow you want. Get back here and verify those allegations ya pitbull. You never denied you were a hack yet?

And Dave, as for on the other thread, hardly likely I'll "hold my breath" on this. Will get Freud's take on Monday. Besides, for all you guys have bothered to inquire, I'm probably rabbeting balsa wood.

I dunno. Just seems you guys want to neutralize every effort to improve the saws marketability. That's what I don't get, Lorax. Almost seems like you have stock or something.

[BadgerDave]

After a quick look through some of my catalogs I have, I came up with the following results as to the maximum width that a particular stacked dado set can cut with the the standard mfg. supplied pieces;

1. Amana = 13/16"
2. CMT = 29/32"
3. Freud SD608 = 29/32"
4. Freud SD508 = 27/32"
5. Freud SD308 = 13/16"
6. Freud SD208 = 13/16"
7. Harbor Freight 44566 = 13/16"
8. Forrest = 29/32"
9. Lee Valley = 13/16"
10. Makita = 13/16"
11. Oldham 8005824 = 29/32"
12. Oldham 8004225 = 13/16"
13. SysticMatic = 13/16"

Looks to me like the RIDGID saws will work just fine with the majority of them. The RIDGID saws would be able to make the maximum width cut on well over half of them, 8 of the 13 listed to be exact. :eek:

[daveferg]

Good research---I find it interesting, even though I doubt it will phase our friend. Pretty much confirms the 13/16th figure I seemed to remember, as being the most common.

[imported_maineman]

You guys are too funny.

Someone tell me these guys don't protesteth too much.

Good work, bd. I must admit.

But your position, your surrealistically identical postion is too close to trust.

I mean could either of you -- I eman that is if you wanted to bother yourselves -- come up with some explanation other than a screw up or a use of dead inventory arbors or planned obsolescence, that would explain how it went down at the Ridgid engineering meeting when it was decided these would be the arbors they would go with,

why else might they have decided to go with the shorter arbor.

That's all you have to explain to me and I'll get off of this.

Why, say if you two were in the lead of designing the 3650, your flagship model saw for your product line, why on this green Earth, what possible advantage would there be, why why why would you not say yeah if we go with the longer arbor potential customers will be happier and more likely to choose our saw?

I mean you're there, it isn't as if this scenario was like 5 years a ago. So while your there deciding whether to go 1-1/8 or 1-1/4, why not do it right and blow away 25% more customers away and by inching into the niche void between the $500 and $800 brackets.

It isn't a matter of whether you should or shouldn't have missed the opportunity.

My beef is why you would have decided in these competitive times, and for the longevity of your good name in the industry, why would you decide that smaller was a better way to go?

It's a legitimate question which I think, in light of the recess defect, deserves an explanation from people with more credibility than the bias you'd expect to get from a mutual admiration society.

I'm not even looking for a verifiable source here. I'm just politely challenging you to imagine why you might think they leaned in the direction they did.

People do this in open discusions. They hypothesize.

It's good for the democratic process. I'm sorry. You get someone in your household fighting for democracy in a battle zone and it get's a little boring listening to two people cozily enjoying the freedom of that democracy, while at the same time setting the most exclusionary tones I've ever seen in 15 years of using electronic bulletin boards.

Show us links to this so called European arbor length standard. Take the time and make the effort to substantiate the inferences you make in your threads.

Show us a list of all table saw arbor lengths.

Show us every saw in every price range.

And then let everyone decide for themselves whether it's a big deal or not.

Otherwise you are recklessly permitting more customer dissatisfaction to occur to future Ridgid customers. Dave - you own a craftsman don't you?? So why exactly has this become some kind of vendetta for you. Is it a personal pride thing?
Enquiring minds want to know.

[imported_Bob D.]

"Every context falls inside a wider one."

And yours apparently is to do nothing other than stir the pot. You haven't contributed much (other than you first half dozen posts) to this forum other than to insult its members, Ridgid, and its employees.

What is it you supposedly design anyway?

Occupation: Designer

[imported_maineman]

Ha. Okay so uhm again now?? How does 8 out of 13 become " """well""" over half of them"??

And tell ya why it becomes harder for me to be "phased", David, as you so coyly and condescendingly like to make these snide underhanded slurs, is because your chief henchman there, didn't submit factual evidence.

Please compare badgerdave's entry in his list to this picture from the Freud website.


http://www.geocities.com/theexactchange/TS3650/freud2.jpg

[imported_maineman]

Do you begin to see why I wouldn't recommend that anyone not question any of the statements you have made in posts on these sites?

With guys like you this is all more of an ego thing. It isn't a matter of getting to the most objective conclusion. This is why I'm keeping this up. It just wouldn't be fair to let you get away with what you are up to on this site.

Don't look now but I think the stretched truth just snapped back and bit cha badger.

[imported_maineman]

Oh get this now. Sure, Jump right on in there, bob. Thought you had more of a mind of your own.

Well, I can tell you one thing, if you're sitting on an idea for which you actually do need to make prototypes, you probably don't rely on this kind of bullying, nor trust such short-sighted attitudes. Being nice is a two way street and if anyone takes the time to see the resistance I got on this arbor length issue from the get go on here they're going to realize that I probably had a legitimate concern. The number of threads on this topic that were here already when I arrived to discuss the arbor length issue, speaks for itself.

I'm in the minority and I have been right on topic so don't embarass yourself. You know yet all just having a time of it - hell - half of you don't even own this particular product.

What is anybody reading this apt to be thinking about who's insulting whom.

This site is a joke only because your style of comraderie requires that you bore to death the people who would contribute more if they didn't have to watch out for and dance around all this groupthink.

That isn't necessarily a put down unless it hurts when I suggest it.

If nothing else my efforts will tend to draw you guys out of the woodwork so those who are trying to use this site will know whom not to trust.

Have a visit over at the other thread I've begun.
We can talk philosophy over there.

New members shouldn't have to be plowing through this foolishness trying to get at some usable conclusion on specific facts regarding the saw.

Final conclusion is the daves admit that buying a good dado set for Ridgid TS3650 may leave you dissatisfied and that you shoulda believe them when they claim to have given everyone the heads up even though they may or may not own the 3650 themselves.

If you bought the saw, and don't like it then nobody deceived you. You should just try to be as omnifiscent as the daves ( and the bob) next time you plop down cash you could have put down on a better table saw from a more honest company.

Case closed as far as I'm concerned (aside: but why do I wanna guess one of these guys will need to have the last word.

You guys ought to have gone into masonry. (aside: Shouldn't take 'em more than a few weeks to figure that one out, eh?)

Good luck folks. Gave it my best shot.

Watch these guys. They smile in your face but they aren't as knowledgable or as helpful as they will lure you into believing. Otherwise they would be more civil and patient in conducting themselves and whatever agenda drives such a pack mentality.

All I essentially wanted these guys to do was to allow more people to participate without having to question the reliability of the info here.

But no. Someone stood up to them for a while and following the threads you will probably see there's a possibility I was disturbing some low key control they've had with regard to sharing accurate informaion.

For some reason this thread and others became more about "putting me in my place", and maintaining the thin illusion that they are the wise old bucks on this site.

Let's all take a moment to ask if this is the kind of democratic nonsense we send our service person overseas to protect and die for.

You're all disgraceful. Any denegrating I may have resorted to began with my simply refusing to accept the cookie cutter answers you gave. If you didn't have better than cookie cutter answers then I am sorry for having challenged you to verify your information.

The Ridgid logo at the top of the page doesn't mean you guys have to be trusted on blind faith. You have an obligation to these people. Please try to honor that a little better in the future.

Don't act like your too busy or so self important or that you don't have the time to re-answer a question. Your efforts here with me have certainly blown that allegation all to hell.

In which case you've all been royally outsmarted.

Early Happy April fools, dudes.

Now go get your facts straight.

[swede]

Maineman,

I appreciate your idea of a longer arbor. It seems to make sense, I guess I just haven't needed one as of yet. Just because I haven't needed one doesn't make your thought invalid. I will acknowledge that. Thanks for your insights.

Overall, this forum has been a great resource for everyday woodworkers to gather and trade ideas and knowledge. It is a free forum for all to participate. I have benefited greatly from the ideas of all seniority levels on this forum. The following is a summary of my thoughts as a reader:

1. "Garbage in - Garbage out" Leave it to the reader to figure out what is best for them. If the reader finds some value in a post, they will take it. If they find no value, they will discard it. Everyone obviously thinks differently, but it is up to THEM to figure out if there is any merit in a post.

2. "Emotions -vs- Fact" As the old saying goes, you can lie with stats, and stats can lie. We can all go around looking for facts from different websites about different companies, and sometimes come up with different numbers. I don't think that BadgerDave was trying to pull a fast one on anyone. I am not trying to speak for BD, but he at least went an extra step unemotionally to give us some numbers to work with. Let's at least give some credit for someone going the extra step. BUT, when I start reading posts where emotions start getting involved, it starts to get personal. I am sure that if we all met up to have a beer at the local pub, we would all have great discussions and find out that we are more alike than we are different. Bottom line, "when in dount - underreact"

3. "Does it work great for you? Then stick with it" Not everyone is going to agree with a post that we put out to the feeding frenzy. Crap, if everyone agreed, this forum would not exist. But if someone disagrees with a post, or does not see you eye-to-eye, SO BE IT. We are mostly grown adults set in our ways unfortunately, and I think it is pointless to try and make someone think like you, or me, or anyone else. Give them your idea, and if it is a winner in the READERS eyes, then it will take off.

In summary - Like I said at the beginning of this post, your idea seems to have some merit, and for that I acknowledge your insights. But I have been seeing alot of bad mouthing of others (which I don't need to list) that have been just stating their views. I have read and learned alot from these woodworkers over the past year. I don't take everything they say as gospel, but am able to sift through their ideas to those that can be applied to me. And overall, they are pretty good at providing great insights for idiots like me.

Maineman, you have some great ideas, and I hope to learn more from you in the future. But as a reader, I think that most people stay away from angst and emotion. State your facts and ideas and let them speak for themselves.

Sorry for the long post.

Swede

[hewood]

Swede - Thank you for saving me all that typing! Ditto!

[BrandMan]

While this has been a popular topic is has taken a turn away from being information sharing to personal. It is important that everyone respect each other and not personally challenge one another on this forum. If this continues - we have to taken attacking posts down or close topics.