Waterless Urinals

[plumbdog10]

Over the past couple of years I've read about "waterless urinals" in the plumbing journals. It has been my understanding that they are used in Australia.

I seen one the other day in a Burger King in Pico Rivera, California. It was an older building, so it was a recent installation.

My questions are:

1) Is this legal in California? I don't think it is.

2) Does anyone have experience with these fixtures?

3) What are your opinions?

the dog :cool:

ps. It was made by Sloan. Or at least that't what the decal said. I have no other info, I was only a customer taking a piss.

dog

[ 11-12-2005, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: plumbdog10 ]

[papadan]

Here is some interesting info. http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-urinals12.html

[ToUtahNow]

dog,

I attended a seminar in Las vegas where waterless urinals were covered. My undestanding is the trap seal is replaced by a blue fluid of some type. In some urinals you need to replace the fluid every once in a while where the other has a canister.

IAPMO is fighting them real hard which means they must not be UPC approved and as such not approved in California. However, Government project are exempt and have used them with mixed results.

I have not seen the Sloan urinal yet. I have seen the Falcon which is a spin off of the original manufacturer.

Mark

[ 11-12-2005, 09:21 PM: Message edited by: ToUtahNow ]

[plumber]

I saw a demonstration of one of these at a Sloan seminar. Anyone familiar with urinal drains that are not flushed clear with water should have serious reservations about these.

Time will tell. But I don't think they will be around for more than a few years.

And how much are they going to pay that poor sap who has to change those cartriges?

[plumbdog10]

Originally posted by plumber:
I saw a demonstration of one of these at a Sloan seminar. Anyone familiar with urinal drains that are not flushed clear with water should have serious reservations about these.

Time will tell. But I don't think they will be around for more than a few years.

And how much are they going to pay that poor sap who has to change those cartriges? It would have to be a helluva lot more than I make to have me do it. As a matter of fact, I prefer to pull toilets over urinals any day.

the dog :cool:

[plumber]

Agreed, urinals are disgusting. That people want to take flushing out of that equation astounds me.

Our code in Illinois requires water to all fixtures. It is a good strong code and I see no reason to change it.

I am glad for papadans link as it let us down- Staters know we need to be writing some letters. No one around here knew of this "trial".

[AZPlumber]

Yes, urinals ARE quite disgusting. And when you get a clogged one, you can bet half the time you are in for a miserable experience. On many, the traps are just too small to get any kind of a snake to pass through them, can't even get a 1/4" cable to go without taking risk of cracking porcelain, so many times you are left duct taping a plastic bag over it as you pour Calci-Solv in it and cross your fingers it eats it up and clears the trap.The reason this happens is urine salts build up in them, and in places like bars and restaurants that serve beer and alcohol it's really bad, seems these salts are more prevalent in alcohol drinkers. And this is where I question the effectiveness of these waterless urinals. How on earth do they get rid of all the urinary salt??? The stuff builds up quick and I can't see how not flushing it out with something will keep the trap clear for long.

[plumber]

AZ,

At the seminar the speaker said "some places will have to change the cartridges more than others" yeah, like thats going to happen.

If they do start putting these in, in about three or four years there will be a lot of work retrofitting toilet rooms to install water lines to flush urinals so the buldings quit smelling like latrines. MPO

[plumbdog10]

Originally posted by plumber:
AZ,

At the seminar the speaker said "some places will have to change the cartridges more than others" yeah, like thats going to happen.

If they do start putting these in, in about three or four years there will be a lot of work retrofitting toilet rooms to install water lines to flush urinals so the buldings quit smelling like latrines. MPO Agree. If you have something better, let's do it. But, if it ain't broken, don't fix it.

the dog :cool:

[imported_PLUMBER RICK]

i did a job at a new park today in santa monica. the park has not officially opened yet. the urinals are waterless. fortunatly the plumber, (a good friend of mine) roughed in water to all 3 urinals behind an access panel. sooner or later the park will use this water.

how is a fixture suppose to be self cleaning without water to wash off the china? does the park janator wash these urinals daily?
the fixture states that 45,000 gallons of water a year can be saved. at a savings of .6 to 1 gallon per flush.

rick.

[AZPlumber]

"fortunatly the plumber, (a good friend of mine) roughed in water to all 3 urinals"

How did he sneak that into the bid? Did he convince them they will eventually need it? lol. If so, and I was the customer, that would send off BIG red flags in my head.

"how is a fixture suppose to be self cleaning without water"

That's what I would like to know too. All I can say is it's gonna need one helluva urinal block to keep the smell at bay.

"fixture states that 45,000 gallons of water a year can be saved"

Yeh, and the new water saving toilets they are forcing us all to buy now say something similar. And we all know how WELL they work, don't we? That is, those of you who have done drain cleaning. And those home-owners who have had to call those drain guys with auger in hand. haha.

I have a friend in that business here who is building a house, since nothing but water saving toilets are available here retail anymore, he says he is gonna become a smuggler.....a smuggler of 2 full size toilets from CANADA. LOL

[AZPlumber]

OK, I'm done amusing myself for now....

[toolaholic]

trade show demonstration ! i can just imagine the poor vendor drinking endless water to give yet another demo

[imported_PLUMBER RICK]

az, as i mentioned these urinals were at a public park in santa monica. not a private residence. the city was thinking ahead.
the first real exposure to using one of these was at a public library also in santa monica approx. 2 years ago. can't say if they switched over since i haven't been back. just needed to look up a code in another trade. my gut feeling is that the mens room in a public library is not as demanding as a public park.

rick.

ps. the newer low flow flush fine. try the american standard champion toilet or the toto g-max line of toilets. the real issue is in the waste piping downstream. especially with older poorly graded c/i systems. even with a properly installed new system, stoppages can be an issue. prime example was a job that had a powder room toilet and lav 60' from any other fixtures. this was a constant paper stoppage until i advised to flush clean water before and after. the building was a multi million dollar 3 story condo in beverly hills. bad part is that there is no way to connect any closer to any other fixtures.

[AZPlumber]

Rick, great post and info, thanks.

About the new water saving toilets, the issue I'm referring to is the size of the tanks themselves. They're only 1.6 gal. or thereabouts. The problem is, obviously, toilets work primarily off gravity, and with these newer tanks there simply is'nt enough water capacity to give a decent flush. Sure, if you install one in a home with an old man and woman living in it, it should be fine, but when you have apartment buildings and hotels putting them in, or homes with children and guests, etc, they inevitably plug up time and again. You put just a tad too much toilet paper in em and plug city. There just is'nt enough water in the tank to give a strong flush, without maybe a power assist unit. When I did sewer and drain work exclusively, I would often have the SAME customers calling me back every few months or so for the same plugged toilet. They wanted to know why it kept plugging up, as compared to their OLD toilet. I would look around, and almost always see kids or a large family living in such residences (the hotels and office buildings that had them obviously saw alot of use too) and that would tell me one thing....that the water savers just are'nt giving a strong enough flush to handle above average use, if somebody throws an extra scrap of toilet paper in it, or accidentally drops some foreign object in it, it's all over and it needs to be augered. You just can't substitute water volume in anything that depends on gravity.

They are awesome for sewer and drain companies, horrible on homeowners, and i can't tell you how many times I have talked motel operators and restaurant owners to just get rid of the things and install a real commercial toilet. Unless they like paying me 100$ every 3 months.

[AZPlumber]

I should add too, everytime I could, after augering such a toilet I would attempt to raise the water fill level in the tank if the fill valve allowed above past the mark as much as possible. After doing so, those customers would almost invariably stop calling and having problems.

[AZPlumber]

"trade show demonstration ! i can just imagine the poor vendor drinking endless water to give yet another demo"

LOL!!

After I would install a toilet in a home, I would often turn around and tell the homeowner I need to give it a "road test", and close the door.
:D

[plumbdog10]

Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK:
az, as i mentioned these urinals were at a public park in santa monica. not a private residence. the city was thinking ahead.
the first real exposure to using one of these was at a public library also in santa monica approx. 2 years ago. can't say if they switched over since i haven't been back. just needed to look up a code in another trade. my gut feeling is that the mens room in a public library is not as demanding as a public park.

rick.

ps. the newer low flow flush fine. try the american standard champion toilet or the toto g-max line of toilets. the real issue is in the waste piping downstream. especially with older poorly graded c/i systems. even with a properly installed new system, stoppages can be an issue. prime example was a job that had a powder room toilet and lav 60' from any other fixtures. this was a constant paper stoppage until i advised to flush clean water before and after. the building was a multi million dollar 3 story condo in beverly hills. bad part is that there is no way to connect any closer to any other fixtures. Rick, Rick Rick........Rick, hold-on.

You write: "the newer low flow flush fine"

Then you write: "...even with a properly installed new systems, stoppages can be an issue"

Get real, the 1.6gal. flush toilet is a joke. They may provide increaded work for service plumbers, but they are not the answer to public health.

I'm with AZ. The 1.6 does not function correctly and should be banned.

the dog :cool:

[ 11-16-2005, 10:57 PM: Message edited by: plumbdog10 ]

[ToUtahNow]

The new Pipe Fitters Union building in Las Vegas has a great place to watch the effects of low flush water closets. The waste lines to the upstairs bathroom are run exposed in the classroom below.

Three of the water closets are plumbed in No-Hub and one is plumbed in clear PVC. The PVC waste line drops vertically to the floor of the first floor and then runs horizontal for about twenty feet.

When the low-flush water closet is flushed upstairs you watch the water and solids drop to the horizontal transition where they do a hydraulic jump and head down the horizontal line. At about the ten foot mark the water can no longer push the solids and leaves them behind.

Regardless of how the water closet was adjusted the solids always stop at about the same place. Of course the apprentices have the fun job of cleaning the PVC line with a long brush after each demonstration.

Mark

[plumbdog10]

Another problem I have with the 1.6 gal. closets is this: how much water do they save if you have to flush them three times per use (see Plumber Rick's recommendation above). That's also the situation on my own closets.

By my math that's 4.5 gallons, as opposed to the old 3 gallon flushes.

the dog :cool:

[AZPlumber]

Utah, that Pipefitter's hall display does'nt prove what I'm getting at. The trouble with 1.6GPF toilets is that they can't flush anything past it's own trap!

[imported_PLUMBER RICK]

dog, no biting quite yet. the newer 1.6gpf toilets have no problem flushing without the use of a plunger. that's what i said. the issue is with the piping downstream. especially older poorly graded rough pipe.
the example that i gave on this high priced condo was that the people who designed the building, did'nt engineer the powder room plumbing properly.

just as we no longer can pipe a washing machine stack of a multi level buiding into the bathroom waste without a large separation to keep possible soap suds from backing up into the toilets.

we need to understand that a 60' run from a powder room toilet will not be able to carry waste and paper all the way into a common line. they should have joined the piping with a shower, or tub. this would have helped carry the waste so that the line would not plug so fast. the example i gave to flush the toilet prior and after was to help wash the waste all the way to the 60' common waste line. with all the service work that i do at hundreds of different buildings, there has been 2 that i gave this advice to.
the original low flows that came out in 1990, are not of the same caliber that the toilets of 2005 are. there is no reason that a 1.6gpf toilet will plug anymore. the downstream piping is another story.

rick.

[ToUtahNow]

Originally posted by AZPlumber:
Utah, that Pipefitter's hall display does'nt prove what I'm getting at. The trouble with 1.6GPF toilets is that they can't flush anything past it's own trap! I don't know about that as the seminar was there for a week and your example neve happened. However the solids were abandond just past the hydraulic jump on a daily basis.

Mark

[ 11-17-2005, 11:47 AM: Message edited by: ToUtahNow ]

[plumber]

All of these headaches to save 2 gallons of water while the homeowner dumps 30,000 gallons a month on his lawn to keep his grass 2 shades greener. And washes his entire car everytime a bird flies over it. Where is the common sense?

I've seen the new low flush toilets in action and while they are better than the ones five years ago they are still not worth a nickel in my book.

[plumbdog10]

Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK:
dog, no biting quite yet. the newer 1.6gpf toilets have no problem flushing without the use of a plunger. that's what i said. the issue is with the piping downstream. especially older poorly graded rough pipe.
the example that i gave on this high priced condo was that the people who designed the building, did'nt engineer the powder room plumbing properly.

just as we no longer can pipe a washing machine stack of a multi level buiding into the bathroom waste without a large separation to keep possible soap suds from backing up into the toilets.

we need to understand that a 60' run from a powder room toilet will not be able to carry waste and paper all the way into a common line. they should have joined the piping with a shower, or tub. this would have helped carry the waste so that the line would not plug so fast. the example i gave to flush the toilet prior and after was to help wash the waste all the way to the 60' common waste line. with all the service work that i do at hundreds of different buildings, there has been 2 that i gave this advice to.
the original low flows that came out in 1990, are not of the same caliber that the toilets of 2005 are. there is no reason that a 1.6gpf toilet will plug anymore. the downstream piping is another story.

rick. Rick,

I'm not, as you call it, barking: I'm disagreeing.

The plumbing code of California should provide for a system that works period. Evacuation of human waste is an important pubilic health issue, which I don't think the current 1.6 gallon flush closets provide.

If you have to do special proceedures (such as you are suggesting) like: installing closets on the same line as bathtubs/showers, or suggesting that closets be flushed before use in "powder rooms" (which I'm not sure of the definition), it should be included in the plumbing code.

How this is possible, I don't know. In commercial buildings the is often no tub/shower. How do you require that homeowners flush their "powder room" closets before using them?

It seems unworkable from a consumer or plumbing code stand point.

the dog :cool:

[ 11-17-2005, 11:34 PM: Message edited by: plumbdog10 ]

[AZPlumber]

"I don't know about that as the seminar was there for a week and your example neve happened."

Again, they were'nt in an atmosphere of potential slight abuse or above average use. Take my word for it, they suck.

[AZPlumber]

"the newer 1.6gpf toilets have no problem flushing without the use of a plunger. that's what i said. the issue is with the piping downstream."

Hogwash. 1.6GPF toilets are the biggest joke to come along in the plumbing world next to water soluable flux.

The tanks don't hold enough water to allow a proper flush. Period. It has nothing whatsoever to do with piping. If it did, the same water saving toilets would'nt be plugging up time and again in the same condo buildings i get work from while the older regular toilets chug along trouble-free (I have maintenance contracts with several such buildings, and I see first-hand what pieces of crap these things are).

If you have one of these in your home, and you have kids and frequent guests, forget the plunger Rick. Just keep a 6' closet auger next to it.

[imported_PLUMBER RICK]

az plumber, don't know about your experiences. all i can do is speak of mine and my 800+ jobsites that i service. i only recommend the best of the the 1.6 gpf toilets. years ago 1990 the best was the pressure assist toilet. (not kohler, recalled) i personally have 2 american standard pressure assist with the old fasioned center push button dated from 1991. i have never taken a plunger or auger to these 2 toilets, nor had to service anything inside.
i still recommend these to commercial accounts such as doctors offices that do colono-oscopies. i used to also recommend these to my residential customers. no need anymore. i have had good luck years ago with the briggs vaccuity. not sure if they are still making them. fluidmaster made the special vac. assist tank.
now i use the toto g-max line and the american standard champion line of toilets of which they even make a 1 piece now.

not to get too graphic. i travel out of the country 3 times a year. there is not a hotel toilet that i have not plugged. fortunatly all but 1 didn't need a plunger. that 1 i called to get a plunger and fix it myself. amazing that the 3.5 gallon foreign toilets plug, but the 1.6 toilets at my house have never seen a plunger. sure maybe a second flush to clean the bowl once in awhile.

told you i didn't want to get too graphic.
my suggestion is to try the few brands that i've noted and see for yourself.

dog, a "powder room" is also know as a guest bathroom. a toilet and a sink only. the reason that an office toilet room differs from my example of a powder room with a 60' and no other fixtures is quite simple. with a private residential toilet it might only get used a couple of times a day or less. with 60' of piping to carry, the paper and waste stops part way down and will solidify. after this it starts the whole stoppage process and will eventually plug from that point back.
in an office enviroment the toilets get used much more often and not always for a #2. therefore with all that flushing the line is always wet and waste tends to keep flowing.
the example of the 60' run in a condo building was an extreme condition. i've had this situation in 2 separate buildings. both of which i've been able to address. 1 building i changed the horizontal 3'' line to 4'' on a 4 toilet stack. and the 60' system i get them to double flush on a #2. so far so good.

the biggest issue with a low flow toilet is the quality of the toilet. you can't expect a $50. toilet to flush like a $300. toilet. just like you can't expect a yugo to drive like a mercedes. i forgot we got rid of the yugo line of cars. if you put in a quality toilet, you will get good results. it works for me everytime.

rick.

[ 11-18-2005, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: PLUMBER RICK ]

[ToUtahNow]

Rick,

I agree the newer low flush water closets have gotten much better. Still if the drain system was not meant for a low flow water closet you will have problems. The real question is, as the only repair plumber on the site, have you seen an increase or decrease in water closet stoppages over the last ten years?

Mark

[imported_PLUMBER RICK]

mark, i have seen a definate decrease in toilet stoppages. in fact on the real cheap toilets that i've replaced for customers, there problems are gone. most local cities had rebate programs or free toilets. i always advised my customers to take the cash and purchase the better toilet.

like anything else, most of the time, it's a learning process with anything new. in this case not only a learning process, but a better toilet has been developed over the last 15 years of low flow.

as a matter of fact, i get more calls for plugged up sewers (roots)and kitchens than i do for toilets. people are learning how to flush, or how to plunge. if i can only teach them how to properly use a garbage disposal. that would make for a good topic.

rick.

[plumbdog10]

I'm saying again: If the State of California is going to require 1.6 gallon flush closets, then they should insure that they work properly.

I now see a post by Utah that mentions whether a waste system was designed for "low flush" closets. This should not matter because there is no code change that resulted when low flush closets were introduced. A citizen of California should not be required to find out which brand of water closets he should buy that will actually function. There should be a state standard on water closets that citizens of this state can trust.

In my opinion the 1.6 gallon flush tank closets do not function up to the plumbing standards we should expect in this state.

Rick,

Comparing the plumbing in foreign countries is a complicated subject. What country, what code, what enforcement?

the dog :cool:

[imported_PLUMBER RICK]

dog, it was comparing a toilet stoppage from a 3.5 gpf. to a 1.6gpf. nothing to do with the actual plumbing. just the toilet. in fact most of the toilets i see overseas are the same as we have here.

rick.

[ToUtahNow]

dog,

I agree with you and that's part of my problem with the low flush water closets.They forced the water closets on us before we were ready and never changed any of the design criteria to handle the low flow water closets.

The newer low flows are better because the waste is now clearing the traps. That does not mean the solids are reaching the end of the laterals on the first flush.

Back in the 70s I use to play with the Gerbit replacement tanks and I could get them to clear the traps with very little water but I knew it wasn't making it all the way to the sewer.

The design of the Gerbit tank is what we should be using. They would still save water and would eliminate the need for multiple flushes.

Mark

[plumbdog10]

Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK:
dog, it was comparing a toilet stoppage from a 3.5 gpf. to a 1.6gpf. nothing to do with the actual plumbing. just the toilet. in fact most of the toilets i see overseas are the same as we have here.

rick. Rick,

Let me clarify: You indicated that the newest 1.6 gal. closets flush better than the old standard closets. This is based on your use of foreign plumbing. That is how I read your post.


1) Are you going to honestly tell me that the low flow closets flush better. Come-on Rick, be honest.

2) If this is based on foreign plumbing, could it be that the waste system under the water closet is not piped correctly?

3) I would urge a customer to hold onto their older water closet. For what, $20.00, they can replace the mechanical parts and keep a far superior fixture running for years. Or they can pay you to replace it with a 1.6 gal. flush, and yes get a rebate from the government, but they better invest in a plunger and an auger, they'll be using it quit often.

the dog :cool:

[imported_PLUMBER RICK]

dog, once again. with a good low flow toilet it will outflush a 3.5 gallon. the 2 toilets i noted are the top of the line toilets. infact the american standard champion advertises it will flush 28 golfballs. i've seen it done. what i havn't seen, is real life golf balls being flushed. still impressive. the pressure assist toilets i have at my house have never plugged. i can't say that about every toilet.
i can tell you that i'm not a fan of kohler. infact the last ballcock, flushvalve assy. i needed for a 1pc. rochelle toilet cost me $227. so much for the $20 fix. would have replaced the toilet except it was a 1 pc. color toilet with a matching bidet.

what brand and model do you have at your house? how old is this toilet? maybe it needs to be updated. infact i can guarantee you that if you install 1 of the tolets i've recommended, you outlook on these low flow will change.

rick.

[toolaholic]

WOW WHAT A THREAD MY 2 CENTS

i have yet to have a blockage at our outhouse in the siearras. maybe we should rethink this indoor stuff!

[ToUtahNow]

Rick,

IMHO there is a big difference between clearing the trap and evacuating the waste our of the line. I believfe you even noted the difference in an earlier post. I'm wondering if when you say they work some feel you are claiming the later.

Mark

[imported_PLUMBER RICK]

mark, clearing the trap of the toilet has not been a issue with the toilets i've mentioned. still you only have 1.6 gallons to wash the waste to the city main. in most cases there is other water/ waste use in the home to assist with the flow. fixtures such as a shower, tub and especially a laundry will help to flush the line.
not every time the toilet is flushed it's going to be a #2. the example i gave with the condo powder room was an extreme example of poor engineering and layout. in this case a simple change of habit was all that was needed to get the line to stay clean. even if they could find a colored 1 piece 3.5 gallon toilet, they would need 3 for the building.
we could compare this problem with all the issues i come across when it comes to laundry rooms in a multi level (3+ stories) building. why do some buildings or units have soap suds come up in the toliet and others don't? the answer is that the person causing the soap suds is using too much soap and or additives. because some people (less than 5%)don't know how to properly wash their clothes, now we have to relocate the laundry waste lines downstream from the toilets.

there is a choice in quality of toilets. plumbers and homeowners need to make that choice. i've yet to come across a toilet that i've recommended that didn't flush.

rick.

[ToUtahNow]

Rick,

As the UPC requires sud relief for suds producing stacks 3 story and above you may have a problem with your waste stack design as well.

Mark

[AZPlumber]

" with a good low flow toilet it will outflush a 3.5 gallon."

Impossible, I'm not buying that. According to all laws of physics, lol, without a power flush unit there is no way they can outflush a 3.5G. And who puts power assist units on residential toilets? I mean, you can of course, but cost is prohibitive to some. Tell me when the last time it was you saw a power assist in a residential application on a service call that you did'nt put in.

[AZPlumber]

Want to add, on most residentail service calls, the customer usually will balk at purchasing an expensive toilet like the ones you are mentioning Rick. What are they, 2 or 300$ closets? It's hard to push pricey toilets on people who are cash strapped and need a toilet replaced now. I used to be able to but the standard old style 3.5G toilets for around a little over 100$ with a regular ballcock in them which could be yanked out in favor of a 10$ reliable flushmaster valve at anytime. Now look. You call this progress?

[imported_PLUMBER RICK]

azplumber, the power assist was the only real good flushing toilet back in 1990 when low flow came out. in the last 3 years i have not recommended them. there is no need as the new toilets will flush as good as the power flush(toto g-max and american standard champion). a power flush is basically the same flush as a sloan flush valve toilet (this is the flushing design as in commercial buildings, public restrooms and stadiums across the u.s.)the difference is that it takes a minute to recharge.
to answer your question, i've replaced dozens of kohler 1 pc. power assist toilets. they had a defect that kohler couldn't or wouldn't fix. in replace they would credit the homeowner with a gravity flush toilet. not a real good substitute. now that 95% of these have been replaced they are typically not doing anything about them. even the $100. credit is tuff to get. by the way, as stated earlier, i'm not a fan of kohler. therefore to answer your question how many pressure flush toilets are in residential that i didn't install. well i can tell you that my local supply house had processed over 1000 returns on the kohler alone. this is just the ones that plumbers have brought in for credit. not to mention all the others that were thrown out or taken back to other kohler distributors. then there is all the working pressure assist like in my house (american standard 2 piece) that are from 1991 and never have seen a plunger or a repair. try that with any rubber flapper toilet.
a pressure flush toilet cost approx. $225.00 for a 2 piece. what do you charge to auger or plunge a toilet?. the only complaint with a pressure flush is the little bit of noise. only 1 of my customers had me remove 1 because of the noise. it would wake up his wife in the middle of the night. as far as repairs on these go, i fix maybe 2-3 of them a year. gravity flush toilets with rubber flappers and ballcocks, hundreds of them a year. as far as stoppages go, more kitchen sinks and sewer roots than a toilet. 75% of the people that call for a toilet stoppage fix it themselves with a plunger. don't think i do more than 10 a year. and typically it's because of something that should not have been flushed. even a pager and a cell phone.

rick.

ps. not everyone drives a mercedes, or a high priced car. if the person you work for can't afford a $200-300 dollar toilet that last for 10+ years without ever touching it. how can they afford to have you come over to service a toilet every few years? did you know that toto makes a $4000. dollar toilet. now your talking not being able to afford a toilet. how about the jacuzzi tub with a big screen tv for $27,000. now the 200-300 hundred on a good flushing toilet doesn't sound that bad. i don't drive a mercedes, but i do have a $200. toilet. i'm sure if a customer has a choice over a $50. dollar toilet that doesn't flush and a $200. dollar one that does flush, the choice would be simple. not to mentinon all the money saved in service calls and water.

[ 11-19-2005, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: PLUMBER RICK ]

[Theron]

Well gentlemen, I run service for a living, as most of you know. I use my toilet auger probably about twice a week. (My rating is too high to get toilet auger jobs that often) I would have to say that 80% of the toilets that i auger are the old 3.5 toilets. It's the older ones that are clogging up more often for me. I replace them with the champion when the customer desires it and guarantee it for a year they'll never clog it or i'll run it for free (toilet auger only). I use that crappy old general wire brand bobble head 6 footer, and it works 95% of the time. I have problems with front outlet and old american standard toilets with that auger. I'm just waiting to break it before i buy a new ridgid.

[Theron]

Not to change the subject, not that we are talking much about the topic anymore anyways, but i just purchased and installed the new American Standard "Standard" Collection toilet for the house we just bought. This thing has a huge bowl, but a little tank. It's pretty tight in there, too. Just enough room for a fluimaster 400a and a douglas style flushvalve, and the fancy dancy handle that came with it. I didn't even have enough room to install the fluidmaster bowl bleacher (those things really do work by the way, and its the safest and best design). The toilet flushes great, but i have never seen such a small tank. Here's a link, what do y'all think of the tank?
http://www.americanstandard-us.com/ProductNew.asp?prodID=1333

[Theron]

So i guess you could say that i am agreeing with everything Rick is saying smile.gif

[imported_PLUMBER RICK]

theron, where have you been hiding for the last few days?

thanks for the support.

rick.

[AZPlumber]

Rick, thanks for your detailed reply.

Far as the Kohlers go, we are in absolute agreement. They stink. Some of them have the strangest valve setups. Some work on a float type mechanism (sorry I don't know the technical name of these type valves) and others are just plain incomprehensible to me why they are so complicated. So many moving parts to go bad. But what really gets me is the fact you cannot simply change out those gadgets in them for a regular old Flushmaster valve because of the way the tank is designed. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. And here there is only one parts supply that carries the replacement valves for them and they are the highest prices supply in town (union shop). I could get them in thru other suppliers but then I have to wait for it to get shipped and that does'nt work when a customer only has one toilet in their condo or small house. And here's the kicker....the Kohler valves cost around 100$. That's about the same price I used to pay for a complete old-style toilet! And it seems the Kohlers don't last all that long either, again due to the fact they simply have too many moving parts and are just way over-engineered to the point of unreliability. I avoid Kohler products l;ike the plague.

To reply to both Theron's and your posts concerning the frequency of problems with them, I can readily say my experience is totally different and opposite of yours here. 80% of my augering jobs are on the newer water saving closets. At least! And again I'll say that on the larger condo and office complexes I have maintenance contracts with, when an old style toilet breaks or cracks and has to be replaced, almost invariably frequent plug-ups occur after the new water saver is put in to replace the old one, while the rest of the older toilets that are still in place chug along just fine with far fewer problems. So I'm just going by experience. I'm not saying you both are absolutely wrong, it could be maybe the water savers I'm used to dealing with are the cheaper models other than the ones you are recommending, or maybe I'm just unlucky, or maybe waste line plumbing here in Alaska is cursed by the plumbing gods. It's just my experience that the water savers not only are problematic but also practically impossible at times to auger.....I can't tell you how many times I simply had to lift up the toilet and clear the trap from underneath because it got SO plugged up. The older 3.5G toilets almost NEVER give me the same problems. In commercial applications where water savers were installed, like hotels and restaurants, whenever I recommended just yanking the damn things and replacing them again with a large capacity regular toilet, the problems in almost every case simply disappeared. I can't go by anything else but personal experience and observations.

I charge usually around 90$/hour for an average augering/snake job. Sometimes less if it's a really easy one. That's an hour minimum call-out. Sure, it's alot of money for an average Joe-Homeowner. A couple of these calls and a customer already is up around the same price as a 2 or 300$ toilet like you are recommending. So yes, I see your point there. But that's why I strongly discourage use of water savers in the first place. On average, whenever I have installed a older style 3.5, I have never heard back from those custeomers again. When a water saver is put in, I can count on hearing back from them within a couple months, as soon as one of their kids put just a little too much toilet paper in one, or somebody throws a tampon in it.

Really, I'm not complaining. They keep me in plenty of business. I just feel sorry for the population at large, having themselves forced by the government to buy these pieces of crap.

[Theron]

Rick,
My wife and I just bought a house so i've been really busy gutting it. Also my laptop bit the dust so i have to take it to apple to get it fixed, so i'm down to one computer. I'll be here; just not as frequently for a little while.