What's Ridgid's new plan??

[Marcus]

Right now Ridgid is offering the lifetime warranty which adds value to their product IMHO. But, what's up when the offer expires?

The TS3650 is a good deal with the warranty, and even better with the 20% deal of a few weeks ago. But, at $597 with a 3 year warranty it's a tougher purchase. There are TS out there that only cost $100 or so more with "better" fences, engines that have hp ratings and a lot of loud mouth endorsers. The same can be said for for any of their other tools.

So, what's going to happen on January 31st? What's Ridgid got up their sleeve?

Marcus (very happy Ridgid owner)

[ 01-18-2004, 08:13 AM: Message edited by: Marcus ]

[daveferg]

Marcus----I think I got the jist of your meaning, though what your accertion of "loud mouthed endorsers" has to do with anything---after all, this board has, in the past, had it's share of loud mouthed supporters. :D :D

Otherwise, you ask a good question. I would say there are a lot of things changing. For example, you mentioned the 20% off sale and what a good value the TS was--which I would agree with. But, if you stop to think about it----one thing has changed----and that's HD.

In my memory, with the exception of a 10% off anything deal, when opening one of their charge cards, until the last year or so, HD has never discounted anything like they did on the recent sale and that was the first time I saw such a deal on power tools. So, if they keep this trend up, that could help tool sales.

As to the lifetime warranty----I think you're over-estimating it's importance. Prior to the take over by OWT---Ridgid had had a darned good reputation for quality, plus a lifetime warranty----one of the only tool manufacturers to do that.

Yet, even with that warranty, I don't believe Ridgid ever dominated the market (though, from the stories that used to prevade this board, HD really stunk at keeping products in their stores). So, it begs the question of if dropping the warranty will actualy have much affect, since it's not like they're much different than the warranties on other tools.

Maybe it's just me, but that old lifetime warranty was never very high on my list of important considerations.

[woodworkerjake]

That'll be an interesting story to unfold. My guess is that they will try to compete in the premium market with all the other tools like DeWalt, Bosch, Makiga, at a premium price. If they don't get their employees up to speed technically on their products though and keep marketing, may just slide down like old RIDGID and be sold AGAIN.

Craftsman is still making sales based on their old tool quality reputation. I think most woodworkers today steer away, but I know I almost bought craftsman when I started my shop b/c I had heard so many good things about them over the years I was growing up.

BRANDING is key. Emmerson missed this concept when they were making RIDGID before. My guess is that's why they sold to RYOBI. Not enough sales. I've noticed commercials since new ownership, that's a start. Let's see if they can continue and get into the tool reviews of major magazines.

Jake

[Marcus]

Originally posted by daveferg:
Marcus----I think I got the jist of your meaning, though what your accertion of "loud mouthed endorsers" has to do with anything---after all, this board has, in the past, had it's share of loud mouthed supporters. :D :D

Otherwise, you ask a good question. I would say there are a lot of things changing. For example, you mentioned the 20% off sale and what a good value the TS was--which I would agree with. But, if you stop to think about it----one thing has changed----and that's HD.

In my memory, with the exception of a 10% off anything deal, when opening one of their charge cards, until the last year or so, HD has never discounted anything like they did on the recent sale and that was the first time I saw such a deal on power tools. So, if they keep this trend up, that could help tool sales.

As to the lifetime warranty----I think you're over-estimating it's importance. Prior to the take over by OWT---Ridgid had had a darned good reputation for quality, plus a lifetime warranty----one of the only tool manufacturers to do that.

Yet, even with that warranty, I don't believe Ridgid ever dominated the market (though, from the stories that used to prevade this board, HD really stunk at keeping products in their stores). So, it begs the question of if dropping the warranty will actualy have much affect, since it's not like they're much different than the warranties on other tools.

Maybe it's just me, but that old lifetime warranty was never very high on my list of important considerations. First, I think loud mouth supporters have a great deal to do with how well a product sells. If a person hears over and over again that they should go with brand X over Y they'll eventually believe it, whether or not it's justified.

As to the sale prices, I don't remember seeing one like that either, but I never paid that much attention.

I think you're wrong about the lifetime warranty, too. IMHO, it's worth a lot. People pay for extended warranties everyday on cars, appliances and electronics. Why? Because it adds value and peace of mind to them. That's value.

Marcus

[Marcus]

Originally posted by woodworkerjake:
That'll be an interesting story to unfold. My guess is that they will try to compete in the premium market with all the other tools like DeWalt, Bosch, Makiga, at a premium price. If they don't get their employees up to speed technically on their products though and keep marketing, may just slide down like old RIDGID and be sold AGAIN.

Craftsman is still making sales based on their old tool quality reputation. I think most woodworkers today steer away, but I know I almost bought craftsman when I started my shop b/c I had heard so many good things about them over the years I was growing up.

BRANDING is key. Emmerson missed this concept when they were making RIDGID before. My guess is that's why they sold to RYOBI. Not enough sales. I've noticed commercials since new ownership, that's a start. Let's see if they can continue and get into the tool reviews of major magazines.

Jake Agreed, I do believe they're going to compete with the companies you mentioned. But, I still wonder if they'll be able to. There are so many non-owners repeating and embelishing on any problem that may have occured that it'll make it tough for a consumer to get a non-biased opinion. Hopefully people can see past those "Ridgid Bashers" and make an informed purchase.

Good ole Craftsman. I dunno if their quality went down or if standards went up, but they certainly have fallen a few slots. But, the name is huge, everyone knows it, so they probably haven't fallen far.

Marcus

[daveferg]

Alright Marcus---your agenda is showing----I see---people who like Delta or Jet and say so are loud mouths----people who say bad things about Ridgid are also bad people---- :rolleyes: :rolleyes: tongue.gif

And, you're also not thinking this warranty thing through. Look at the facts! HD is the largest specialty chain in the country----When Ridgid was placed in their stores, the dropped all other brands of stationary tools and greatly limited competition on benchtops, in favor of Ridgid----

Ridgid had the lifetime warranty ever since they appeared in HD-----but still, it wasn't enough to save them from being dumped by Emerson.

I have no idea what the lifetime warranty cost them to have---but, it's obvious, that the new company felt they could drop it with no problems, choosing instead to dramatically beef up their advertising, and starting to sponsor woodworking shows----smart moves IMHO.

BTW----the limited lifetime warranty is entirely different from one of those extended service agreements you buy----read the language of both and you'll see.

[Lorax]

Originally posted by woodworkerjake:
That'll be an interesting story to unfold. My guess is that they will try to compete in the premium market with all the other tools like DeWalt, Bosch, Makiga, at a premium price. If they don't get their employees up to speed technically on their products though and keep marketing, may just slide down like old RIDGID and be sold AGAIN.

Craftsman is still making sales based on their old tool quality reputation. I think most woodworkers today steer away, but I know I almost bought craftsman when I started my shop b/c I had heard so many good things about them over the years I was growing up.

BRANDING is key. Emmerson missed this concept when they were making RIDGID before. My guess is that's why they sold to RYOBI. Not enough sales. I've noticed commercials since new ownership, that's a start. Let's see if they can continue and get into the tool reviews of major magazines.

Jake Ridgid has not been sold, and certainly not to Ryobi. Emerson still owns Ridgid. Some Ridgid woodworking power tools are made by One World Technologies under license from Ridgid. OWT also happens to make Ryobi, but it is my understanding that the two brands come off different lines. This very subject has been discussed ad nauseum in past threads. If I am incorrect in any of my statements I stand ready to be corrected. I wish we could get this issue settled once and for all.
I think the limited lifetime warranty and the 20% off sale were just marketing strategies to give sales a boost and get the tools into the hands of the people that use them. This subject has also been discussed before. Just my humble opinion.

[RGad]

Guys: I've stayed out of this discussion and others along the same lines, and I'm only going to venture in so far.

The "old" Ridgid was a great company, because of the products and the people. How those factors will change, if at all, with the "new" Ridgid is a question on which the jury is still out.

However, the lifetime warranty was always a bit of a gimmick. For this reason: virtually all of the defects in a product that trigger warranty remediation occur either immediately or within a very short time span. If you graphed warranty claims versus age of the item (based on date of sale), you'd see a curve that quickly decays to zero.

So the "cost" to the company of a lifetime warranty is virtually nil (as is the benefit to the consumers as a class). Why, then, the change? I have no inside information, but I'd bet lunch money that it was dictated by corporate accountants, who view any "lifetime" claim as an open-ended question on the balance sheet. It probably didn't matter to Emerson, a smaller down-home company who'd been doing this for years. But now the tools are sold by a worldwide outfit who no doubt uses a major accounting firm, and the accountants concern is only the mathematical theory, not practical reality.

The sad thing is that the all the kerfuffle over the change in the warranty has probably hurt Ridgid far more than the issue was ever worth. For my money, I'm more upset by the departure of Jake Schnarre than the change in the warranty.

Nothing further.

[daveferg]

Lorax---yes the Ridgid wwing tool ownership has been discussed ad nassium and I'm sorry, but you and others can say it as many times as you want, but Emerson no longer controls nor manufacturers Ridgid wwing tools.

You are right about OWT---but as to different lines----take a look at the Ridgid 18v drill case---then look at the Ryobi----if that isn't the same mold for that case, I'll eat it. The only difference is one projection at the back of the drill.

Indeed, the transfer of the entire line to another company is, I think, part of the reason we've seen some people have such a hard time getting parts. If they relocated the entire parts operation off Emerson's property, setting up new parts distribution could take time to get done.

Again, going along with what RGad said, the lifetime warranty really wasn't that important and with few exceptions, as the tool got older, claims would drop. Heck----I've got an Emerson saw, pretty much the same as the 2424----with the exception of arbor bearings---in 14 years, I never would have had a claim.

I'd be willing to bet they do more to boost sales, with their increased advertising/sponsorship plus actual sales at HD, than the lifetime warranty ever did.

[woodworkerjake]

Rgad,

I am studying toward getting my CPA and have a marketing / sales backgroun. You'd be surprised how much accountants can tell how many tools come back. Just like life insurance companies know how many people will die out a pool of 10,000. The accountants know how many tools will be returned or serviced each year if you average it out over a large enough number ( HOME DEPOT IS HUGE ). As to my previous posting, I was referring to the larger machinery. Mitre / Drill Press / RAS / Contractor saws. My guess is the warranty was either costing the company more than acceptable money or there was a concern with new structure of tool production. not NIL.

Jake

[Lorax]

Originally posted by daveferg:


You are right about OWT---but as to different lines----take a look at the Ridgid 18v drill case---then look at the Ryobi----if that isn't the same mold for that case, I'll eat it. The only difference is one projection at the back of the drill.

Hi Dave, ol' buddy, how ya been? The Ridgid comes off the ORANGE line and the Ryobi comes off the BLUE line. Would you like fries with that order sir? smile.gif smile.gif

[daveferg]

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :D :D :D

Fine---orange and blue. ;)

[UO_Woody]

The old Grey they sent me via UPS, came with a blue tag for a return address. Different lines, different whatever. Blue took the stand on being the shipper. To me, it's an indication who really is licensed to manufacture.

Just my guess, but Ryobi bought the rights, hired OWT to manufacture. Remember the peter-paul-dave post? It's cluster of a mess for us to try and figure it out. But I'll say it again...

IF YOU WANT IT DONE RIGHT, DO IT YOURSELF! Ridgid wansn't broke, don't know why they thought they hat to fix it.

[woodworkerjake]

Hey woody, maybe the old model was broke and ya just didn't know. Only reason for Emmerson to get out of the tool business is that something in their way of doing business was broke. Probably b/c they didn't sell enough tools. But whatever it was, I am sure it broke down to not enough profit in whatever line of tools they moved to RYOBI. All decisions in public companies are driven by Profits & Losses.

Just something to think about

Jake

[George]

I always think of quality and reputation before purchasing a tool. For the most part, I had rather have a tool that I won't have to keep taking back for repairs/replacement than one that says I can do it for life for free.

However, I must admit that the lifetime warranty was the major factor in deciding to go with Ridgid for my TS2424. Emerson's reputation was the second factor. Now, given that there will be no more lifetime warranty, and I have not seen an Emerson motor on the new big tools, I don't know if I would make the same decision again.

[daveferg]

I think Woody pretty much says it all----"if it ain't broke---don't fix it." But, sadly, a lot has changed, particularly with CS---heck, I find it annoying that I can no longer look up the price of parts on the web----

As to Emerson's motivation to dump Ridgid ww'ing tools----we can guess all day long. However, let me briefly thumbnail what was going on before this occurred---as Woody and other old timers will remember.

On this board, prior to the takeover, the biggest complaint was from people who wanted to buy or at least see new Ridgid ww'ing tools at HD----either the tools weren't on display or when the customer wanted to buy a tool, they couldn't find the back stock. For example, when the new 3612 table saw came out----no one could find it. Heck, in my travels, I hit about 8 HDs and only one had the saw set up----the two closest to me---discontinued the saw without ever having it on display. :D tongue.gif We also had reports of tools either put together wrong or sloppy merchandising, etc.

Now, for anyone with retail experience, HD's lack of stocking/displaying the product certainly must have hurt sales. But, Ridgid also lacked the commitment to having merchandisers/factory reps visit the HDs to make sure the tools were displayed/stocked. Heck, I even wrote Ridgid about doing part-time merchandising, since I was already on the road for my other business and hours were flexible enough to stop in at a few HDs--- ;)

While HD was clearly a problem (and still are in other respects) Ridgid either didn't have the manpower or was unwilling to commit to either more reps or to putting more pressure on HD. Don't know how much affect this actually had, but it was clearly an existing problem.

[Mike3206]

Dave, I do remember the old discussions. They became pretty heated about why there never seems to be any Ridgid reps at any HDs and why the displays always looked like crap. We felt that the tools would sell themselves if marketed correctly. (ahhh, the good old days)

As to why Ridgid licensed the line out... Well, one could say that they weren't making any money. others could say that they were making money, but they could make more if outsourced. (what i believe happened here) My guess is that the sourced to a company with more experience in the tool line who could fufill HDs needs with a quality poduct.

Also, Ryobi does not own Ridgid or license the name. Ryobi is a line of tools made by OWT, just like Ridgid and a few others.

I will disagree with Dave about the warranty being bull on a tool purchase. Some tools used in a shop get minimal use. If during the course of one or even two years, the product gets used 2 hours total, then I doubt a failure would show up. If I knew that the tools may get little use, I'm going for the longer warranty for the peace of mind. And if warrantys mean little, then why is Jet now advertising lifetime warranties on their line?

Cordless tools are a whole 'nother animal than stationary tools. By offering the lifetime warranty, I think they quickly gained some market share. Contractors and other heavy will benefit because of lower repair and battery replacement costs and Ridgid gets the advertisement. Even if Ridgid ultimatly makes no money on the tool, the advertising was worth the lack of income. When you look at other tool lines who have reputations, they put out duds, but the name keeps faith in the product. I believe the same will happen here. ( I really like my 12v beauty)

I see CS becoming better and as was posted when all the changes started to occur, it seemed as though Ridgid had the final say in the matter. I don't believe that they would sit by and let CS take a dump for very long. As with change in any company, there needs to be an adjustment period. Let's hope all adjusting for the worse has been completed.


Mike

[SuperDave]

I've linked an article (from Fast Company) below. Although it concerns Wal-Mart, the methodologies and attitudes can be applied to Home Depot. I think it'll shed some light on what's happening to many manufacturers.

This is a downloadble Word .doc, from which I've received no viruses or malware.

http://www.exponentialimprovement.com/cms/uploads/FastCompanyOnWalMart.doc

[daveferg]

Mike----I understand what you're saying, but you've got to admit the whole thing will be moot in 13 days. ;)

The thing is, at least for me, the lifetime warranty was way down the list of reasons to buy or not buy. If the tool/product were cheaply made and I'd have to keep taking it in for service-----thats a loss of my time.

For example----when I bought my new truck, got a tonneau (however you spell it ;) ) cover it, color matched to the truck----looked real cool, until the paint started blistering and chipping----Had a mfg's lifetime warranty on the paint job as to defects----after a month of fights with the dealer and having to send it back to the mfg., they repainted it-----5 months later---it's doing the same thing again----as I say, a lifetime warranty is no substitute for buying a good product in the first place---of course, this was a double whammey, since it WAS a good manufacturer---or so I thought. :eek: ;)

[woodworkerjake]

Don't mind me I'm bored between studying and woodnet is down so I get to clutter up this board a bit more.. :D

Funny you mention thta David Ferg. I'm taking Advanced accounting right now and we learned about your last post first class. Went over an in class case study about how after WWII, there was no competition and the US companies did just that. They focused on mass producing and just calculated warranty costs into their equation. There was nobody to compete so any extra cost was just passed onto the consumer.

When japan and Germany started competing < we talked about cars in class > they made about the same profit but spent their money upfront on engineering and not warranty cost. Therefore a more troublefree product. If you bought a ford back then the door handle would fall off, Ford would fix it and then a couple months somethign else would go wrong, they'd fix it again. Class consensus was that the consumer would be happier overall with a more solidly designed & built product. I hope we don't divert back to that for an in interim when all the tool companies move their production overseas as a hiccup to industrializing the world. Time will tell I'm sure.

Just a thought

Jake

Jake