Let the Lithium-Ion wars begin

[woodslayer]

Copied from DeWalt website:

New Products The Power Of Corded Without The Cord
Many professional contractors have been asking, when will DEWALT come out with a cordless line of tools that will give me the increased power and run time that I can only get with a corded tool? Well, the time is near.DEWALT has announced that it will launch a new, innovative line of heavy-duty 36-volt power tools-- a seven tool product platform that will provide users with increased levels of power and runtime, while weighing a similar or lower weight than their corded counterpartsAvailable in 2006, each tool in the 36-volt line has been engineered from the ground up to include new, innovative features while ensuring a design that meets the durability and reliability needed to accommodate this much cordless power. The line will launch with a hammerdrill, reciprocating saw, circular saw, impact wrench, rotary hammer, jigsaw, flashlight and combo kits. The 36-volt line will offer users the most extensive platform of tools available in 36-volt power. DEWALT created its 36-volt platform to provide professional contractors with the performance needed to complete high-powered applications, which previously, were only possible with corded tools. The DEWALT 36-volt line has the ability to deliver 2-3 times more runtime and 2 times the power of 18-volt tools."DEWALT is committed to delivering innovative solutions to meet the needs of professional contractors and has proven this time and time again with our superior product line. The launch of the 36-volt line of power tools will change the landscape of the industry and change what users have come to expect from a cordless power tool. The 36-volt line will finally provide users with a cordless platform that is powerful enough to get the job done, allowing contractors to cut their cords and still achieve true corded performance," commented John Schiech, group vice president and president of DEWALT Industrial Products Group.To create the battery technology for the 36-volt platform, DEWALT partnered with A123Systems, a developer of a new generation of lithium-ion batteries that incorporate nanoscale technology developed at and exclusively licensed from Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT). The 36-volt battery technology, provided exclusively to DEWALT for power tool applications, has a unique lithium-ion design that offers a high-level of power, durability and life when compared to conventional lithium technology.The 36-volt line will be officially unveiled to the general public at the International Builder’s Show (IBS) in Orlando, FL, scheduled to take place in January 11-14, 2006. At that time, attendees of IBS will have the opportunity to see the tools for the first time and experience them in various applications.

Woodslayer

[jaco]

Good post Woodslayer, ironic that Dewalt's post
say's the new 36 volt batteries is 2 X the power of an 18 volt battery, 2 X 18=36.....

I meant to say this it's obvious that the 36 voltage is twice the
voltage of a 18 volt battery.

[ 11-05-2005, 05:50 AM: Message edited by: jaco ]

[jaco]

News from Bosch:
"Bosch 36-Volt Rotary Hammer
This is the first rotary hammer to be powered by the all new 36-volt lithium-ion battery pack.

New electropneumatic hammer mechanism allows power equal to corded models
Can drill up to 150 holes in concrete with one charge
40 percent faster than other battery-operated models
Weighs less than similar 24-volt units"
http://homepage.mac.com/jjaaccoo/.Pictures/1129740787302_Bosch_hammer_pg71.jpg

[BadgerDave]

Coming soon to a Harbor Freight near you!!!!! :D :D :D :D :D

[ 11-05-2005, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: BadgerDave ]

[oldslowchevy]

36 volts wow.i remember getting a 7.2volt makita an i thought it could get no better than that,that is until i got the 9.6 witch i still have to this day smile.gif now i am taking bets on who comes out with the frist 50 volt tools and please dont laugh it wasnt that long ago that 18volt tools were just someones dream that only came true about 7-10 years ago :D

[Polar Sparky 1224]

how about ridgid take the next step to the 48v 6pc combo.

Hammerdrill/driver
Reciprocating Saw
Circular Saw
Impact Driver
Bandsaw
SDS Rotary Hammers

or a 4 pc

Hammerdrill/driver
Reciprocating Saw
Circular Saw
Impact Driver

Don't even bother with a flashlight, unless it's Fluorescent!

Who knows maybe someone will invent cold Fussion powered tools! :D :D :D :D

[ 11-05-2005, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: Polar Sparky 1224 ]

[plumber]

Interesting that Bosch compares its weight to the 24 volt system that most professionals felt was too heavy to be worthwhile. If the Dewalt is equally as heavy, and given the extra battery cells needed to reach that voltage it probably will be, then I think Big Red still has the advantage with a 28 Volt system that weighs the same as the 18V with more power and run time and has most of its production in the USA.

Of course everything is pure speculation until the new tools are actually released and real professionals use them on real jobs in the real world. I would love the opportunity to use them all side by side in the same conditions on the same project.

[jaco]

I think B.D. is right!!


http://homepage.mac.com/jjaaccoo/.Pictures/nav.gif

http://homepage.mac.com/jjaaccoo/.Pictures/6626_72dpi.jpg

:rolleyes:

[Dawg]

Plumber - you are right on the money. Does this mean 2x the price as well???? Why didn't everyone go to 24V? It's the weight Stupid!!! :eek:

[daveferg]

Yeah, maybe it's gotten out of hand. More weight (for someone using it all day) equals more fatigue. Trade off to drag a cord around all day. Hmmmmm! Used to be you'd go on a construction site and trip over all the extension cords----now you trip over a whole line-up of chargers. :D :D :D :D

[tyreman]

If voltages get higher on cordless tools then you might as well buy plug in tools anyway.
save the money on future battery issues to!

[plumber]

Yeah on larger jobs there are sometimes 20 or so chargers piled around the power stations. Its becoming a fight to find a place to plug in the charger. Thats one of the advantages of lithiom ion as showing up on the job with fully charged batteries usually means you don't have to worry about finding a place for your charger.

A generation from now construction workers will be looking at cords the same way we look at a white gas torch or hand drill today. "How did they ever get anything done" they will say.

Lucky them.

[Dawg]

I have not had the time to check, but does dewalt or makita have the fuel gage on their li-ion batteries?

[jaco]

The Makita does not have a fuel gauge.

[Scott K]

First off, I was in the local tool store today (I'm from Canada) and spoke to one of the DeWalt reps who happened to be in the store as I saw the DeWalt Factory truck outside. I asked him about the new 36 V.

He said the new DeWalt 36V circular saw will have a 7 1/4" blade like corded models do (compared to 6 1/2" that all cordless circ saws have). He said they have cut something like 1000 2 x 6's on a single charge. 1000 2 x 6's? He said the battery indicator won't be on the battery like Milwaukee's 28V but instead you can put the battery into the charger and it will tell you how much battery life is left. He said this is because their market research seemed to indicated people found battery indicators on the battery finicky and more potential for something to go wrong where as a charger which is stationary and often in a safe place can cause less to go wrong.

Secondly, relating to the 24 Volts being too heavy. I think the problem with the 24 Volt line wasn't neccessarily it being too heavy as far as there not being much more advantage to going to 24 Volt. Look at how undeveloped 24 Volt tools are. Very few manufacturers took 24 Volt tools on, there wasn't much in the way of combo packs or tools in the line up, the batteries (especially the DeWalt 24 Volt fan cooled batteries) are twice the price of 18 Volt batteries and don't have the shelf life of 18 volt batteries because they generate more heat so they don't last as long. I think weight has little to do with it and it has everything to do with cost and tool development. But now we are seeing tools that will be developed like the lithium ions into bigger platforms with more tools and a revolutionary longer lasting lighter battery. I'll tell you right now if they pushed 24 Volt tools like they pushed the 18 volts I'm sure they would reduce the price of it, and have more buyers. I think weight has less to do with the issue than people exaggerate. The 18 Volt DeWalt tools are light as an example. If the 24 Volts were as cheap and had as many available tools I'd certainl look at them over the 18 Volts considering I am a person who works in a trade for a living whoses tools make or break me.

The DeWalt rep said their 36 V tools will probably be available as early as March in a lot of places.

[BigThom]

The big deal is new battery technology developed by MIT and now licensed to DeWalt and Bosch. This new technology is pretty cool.

Max watts available 3000, max watts available with corded tools 1500. Double the power when you need it like pushing your circular saw or drilling large holes.

Double the capacity of the 18V batteries. This means, everything else being equal, double the run time.

5 minutes recharge from dead to 90%, 15 minutes from dead to 100%.

Up to 10 times recharge cycle life of current generation LI batteries.

This might just get me to retire the red and silver.

[gfezz]

My first post! Hi fellas, I'm a 30 yr pipefitter,
very cool about these lithium ion tools getting to market. I have 24v hilti drill that I love but dang it's heavy. One of my hobbies is flashlight fanatic.
I play with lithium ion cells, both protected and unprotected, very carefully I might add. The technology that would need to make a ? 36v 3000w ?
lithium ion pack safe and reliable is going to VERY
expensive I think. I would guess $400 or so for a battery pack....And of course its dedicated charger.
We know what laptop batteries cost. At what cost power and light weight?? What you think fellas?

[Scott K]

I'm willing to bet the new 36 Volt batteries for DeWalt will probably cost around the same as the 28 Volt Lithium Ion batteries for Milwaukee. Here's why: Because the DeWalt batteries won't have the little indicator on the battery, but instead on the charger. This might save them money on battery production that they might put into developing the other 8 volts into a lighter more competitive battery, etc.

[ooman2]

I have no idea what the 36v batteries will cost, but I can guess that the charge indicator on a battery probably doesn't cost the manufacturer more than a buck or two, so I doubt its elimination would have a big impact on retail pricing.

At any rate this does sound like breakthrough technology with huge implications, even beyond cordless tools (as if anything else even matters).

Article (dated 11/05/05) on new batteries. (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05306/599379.stm)
And another... (http://thefraserdomain.typepad.com/energy/2005/11/a123systems_lii.html)
And finally a link to the new company's website. (http://www.a123systems.com/html/home.html)

[ 11-29-2005, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: ooman2 ]

[BigThom]

The price on the batteries should not change. A new manufacturing technology should slightly decrease the materials cost while boosting performance. Don't expect to see any decrease in price, the cost difference is minimal and productions processes will change a little. The benefit, prices should not go up.

That being said, I'll bet that the first to market will command a premium. That's just market forces at work.

[rick007]

It seems odd to me how much attention is paid to the FIRST generation Li ion tools and what product is best. I see the use of Li ion as a bad choice (heavy and lower discharge rates), and the real way of the furture Li tools is Li poly as the Radio control guys have found out. The recent development of Li poly cells has far out done the Li ion improvements. Li ploy is not perfect, but it is better in high dischare rate applications.

[plumber]

Rick007,

I own and use (2) two 28volt Lithiom Ion hammerdrills and they are not any heavier than my 18v drills yet they are far stronger and last much longer. I don't know which ion technology they use in toy cars but the technology used in the tools is far lighter than the previous batteries.

While weight is certainly an issue its not a drawback for LIon versus NICAD. Regarding the 36volt vs 28 volt we all just have to wait and see when they are used side by side for hours at a time.

[oldslowchevy]

i never had much use for cordless tools other them maybe a drill buy i do remember when 7.2 volt was the best around then came makitas 9.6 witch stayed around for for a few years till the 12 volts and so on my point is this as technolgy gets better tools get better but at what price to us? a corded drill $60-100 cordless $100-350 corded sazall $75-180 cordless $100-300.the nice thing about cordless is there conveice i will admit to that.but one the jobs that i have ran in the past we just had a genorater in the middle of the house running all the tools and just used the cordless tools for the punch out crews now i do realize that not everyone builds homes and everyone does use there tools for differnt things in what every line of work you do.but if the price of these new ion tools dont come down soon the only poeple that will have them are us jorneymen none of the aprentices can aford them and still make there rent and carpayments and still eat i did pay all my guys better then the averge employer but the new makita impact is $329 at my home depot that is step even for me and to see the chuck is made of plastic really makes me wonder how good of a tool it really is and the light did little for me but i will give it this it sure was very very light but others wize i was very unimpressed with it just my two cents

[Scott K]

I think weight of the tool is negligeable when the tools:

1) Have twice or almost twice the power due to the 36 or 28 V versus the typical 18 Volt flagship battery packs.

2) The batteries last twice as long or more, both per charge, and over the course of their life.

3) The batteries charge faster.

4) The Batteries have an indicator of some sort (whether it be the button the Milwaukee or the charger indicator on the DeWalt)

5) Because of all of the above, they actually develop the tool lines with lots of tools to compliment the attributes of the battery systems. This is contradictory to 24 Volt tools where they brought them out, and they only developed a handful of tools, the batteries were pricey but didn't provide much advantage over 18 Volt tools.

I repeat - weight is NOT the issue here. Factor in a lot of the benefits listed above versus just the simple potential slightly increased weight factor. The 28 Volt Milwaukee batteries reportedly weigh less or the same as 18 volts. I would imagine the 36 Volt DeWalt's and Bosch's probably weigh just a little more, but the above advantages make me forget about the slight difference in weight really quick. I'd imagine it will be such a slight difference (just speculating here) that it won't be noticeable.

[rick007]

Plumber,

You sorta misread my post. What I was saying was that Li based systems are fine and in the end probably better than Nicd, but to use somewhat dated Li ion cells rather than the Li Poly ones makes me wonder, as the Li Poly in the R/C world has left Li ion far behind. I know the manufactures say that they did wonders with the Li ion designs to make them work in power tools, but Li ion cells are heavier than Li poly and less able to deliver high currents. Note that Nicd is heavier than any Li cell, but between Li ion and Li poly, Li poly is ever lighter.

I'm do not really care about the weight of the tool. What I care about is these 1st gen systems will soon be replaced by gen 2 (Li poly) and we will have provided the research and development budget for this by buying tools that are already behind the times.

My R/C reference was not to 'toy cars.' It was high performace electric airplanes and helicopters. And while you brought up 'toys', why are these manufacturers still using brushed motors? R/C has gone over to brushless designs that are, in many cases, 20% more efficient and never need maintenence? If you REALLY want a top performing tool, don't throw away 20% of the batteries energy in a lossy motor.