Lithium batteries?

[measure once...cut twice]

I was in my local HD the other day and happened to run into a Ridgid tool rep. So we got to talking about the tools when the subject of the batteries came up. He told me that all of the Ridgid battery packs are lithium instead of NiCD. Needless to say this information blew me away and I didn't believe it for a second. He seemed very positive about it explaining that Ridgid is the 1st company to try this and said part of the reason that they were able to give the lifetime service warranty to the batteries was because lithium batteries would last that much longer than the standard NiCD. Is there any warrant to this claim? If not, then I have just lost all faith in Ridgid store reps.

[Mike3206]

Look on the bottom of the batteries. they all say NiCad. Not Lithium. I think he was blowing smoke up your, um, drill press. ;)

[mr man]

What city and state were you in?

[ridgid]

I just purchased the R922 4 piece combo kit. I certainly hope they will honor the lifetime warranty. I have my doubts. Panasonic currently has a metal-hydride battery replacing the old batteries. They provide larger Ah capacity. Hitachi has new chargers that charge old style batteries and new metal-hydride batteries when available also. They also will allow the new metal-hydride batteries to function in place of the old style batteries in the older tools. I would hope Ridgid would follow, but I wonder if the current charger would function for new style batteries.

[measure once...cut twice]

Mr. Man I was in the Fargo, ND Home Depot

[CaptainJack]

lithium huh? if they are i hope they're sealed up nice and tight... wouldn't want to get them wet.

[imported_Scott C.]

The only power tool I know of that has lithium batteries is the new cordless Dremel. Ridgid simply could not afford to replace batteries for life if they put lithium ion batteries in power tools. Heck a battery alone for a 14.4 v drill/driver would cost more than the retail price of the whole drill/driver/charger/2 batteries/case kit. Example, the 4 amp-hour 14.8 v lithium ion battery in the laptop I'm using to type this costs over $200. It also weighs about 1/2 of what the 2.6 amp-hour 14.4 v Ni-mH batteries on my Makita drill/driver weigh.

Also, Li-Ion batteries have a fixed life, in terms of charge/discharge cycles. The lithium ions in them slowly turn into elemental lithium and they become dangerous. Early lithium (not Li-Ion) rechargeables exploded with annoying frequency, hence the development of the Li-Ion "smart" batteries that count chg/dischg. cycles and monitor chg/dischg temps, etc.

[Woodndust]

They are nicads. The Rep is confused and may not read his own literature. Nicads are better for the use given these type tools. Heat and cold are the enemy of batteries. Nicads can handle the temperature extremes much better. The lithium are great for some things but not the job site.

[imported_kahootz]

Ridgid (nor any other manufacturer) will make a drill with lithium-ion batteries. They are simply not a good match for drill applications. Drill have a variable load on the battery (big hole vs small hole). Ni-cads are good for this. So are NiMH (Makita). Lithium Ion batteries are good in tools that have a CONSTANT draw on the batteries. That is why Dremel is using them in their cordless. Whether you are buffing, sanding, grinding, polishing etc, it is a constant draw on the battery. Simpler example; call phones and watches use lithium ions (constant draw, 4am vs 12pm, or call to Atlanta vs call to Cleveland).

[BatteryGuy]

Well, looks like the Milwaukee V28 tool line shows that Lithium ion is definately an option. I would suspect that RIDGID will have access to this technology due to the relationship they have with TTI. Time will tell.

[SmartA$$]

This post is soo completely filled with misinformation that I was almost crying when I read it.

measure once...cut twice,
If that was really your local RIGID rep, you could easily have that guy fired. He completely has no idea what he is talking about. Rigid DOES NOT HAVE any lithium Ion powered tools. And likely will not have any for some time. There are only a handful of companies that have lithium ion powered tools and they include Milwaukee, Dremel (owned by Bosch) and some other lesser known Japanese tool manufacturer that currently only makes one tool power by Lithium ion.
So there is no warrant to his claim an you have every reason to have lost all faith in your rep.

Captain Jack,
True, you do not want to get a lithium ion pack wet, but then again, you don't want to get any battery pack wet. Simple common sense.

Scott C,
Currently the only commonly available tools that are lithium ion powered are the Dremel and Milwaukee's 28V. The markup on battery packs would make you furious, so trust me when I say they aren't as expensive as they should be.
I have to correct you on your statements about Lithium ion batteries. Their life is not fixed. And their ions do not turn into elemental lithium. The development of 'smart' batteries was not exactly for the reasons that you mention. A lithium ion battery pack as with any battery of any chemistry has what is called a rated capacity at a given temperature. Packs are then rated to get a given number of cycles at a given temperature at a give rate. If you go above or below the 'ideal' temperature or other parameter, you will not get as many cycles. The circuitry in lithium ion packs is to prevent over charge (which causes the very bad lithium plating condition that you mentioned), it also prevents over discharge (which affects cycle life) and current limiting (too high of a rate of discharge which heats up the cell), circuitry also can communicate with a device to give cycle counts, remaining capacity and monitor temperature. New cells and packs are the safest packs around and should not be of a concern to anyone.

Kahootz,
When properly implemented, lithium ion cells will work in almost any battery power application. They are ideal for drills. High rate Nicads or NMHi cells are no match to high rate lithium ion cells.

Battery Guy,
RIGID tools are only assembled by TTI, and will not have access to the new technology for at least a year or so. Betcha there is an exclusivity clause with TTI/Milwaukee for these new battery packs.

Have a nice day.

[ 03-24-2005, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: SmartA$$ ]

[packers]

SMART A$$


might want to check your facts.... before you write, MAKITA...MAKITA does have Litium batties also. They have had them for quite awhile. They are always on board before anyone else get to start and design theirs. Makita is far ahead of everyone in inovation. You want tools...buy they teal!!!

[SmartA$$]

Packer.......Makita....Oh yeah the teal toy tools....yeah, they slipped my mind. Sorry about that. Why is it that nobody but you knows about them (their Lithium tools)??

Trust me, Makita is way behind in the development of lithium ion powered tools.

Lemme guess......you drive a teal mid 90's civic don't you.

Have a nice day.

[michael stephen]

ni-cd or lithium, both will wear out too..

[jon]

Makita has had these batterys for about 3 years now. makita has very good battery life and pretty good tools.i work on cordless all the time.since they were the only ones to have this battery out before the other players how could they be way behind in ther technology(SMART A>>>>) the top 3 cordless drills outhere are. milwaukee,makita,and bosch. the top selling is dewalt.your erogance is your stupidity smart guy.

[plumber]

I just attended a Milwaukee tool show yesterday. We were able to use these 28v Lithium tools and all I could say was WOW. There is not anything like these on the planet. They also have a new corded sawzall out that is unbelievable in its smoothness and cutting power and speed. I am going to buy the new corded sawzall at 7:30 am tomorrow when the the supply house opens up. Their new super hawg drill will also be gracing my truck.

[plumber]

JON,

What Makita tools have Lithium Ion batteries? I have just completed a google search and came up empty?

[chic]

Plumber, sorry about that i was mistaken,i was rubbed the wrong way by smarta$$ and the way he answers people. makita came out with the first nickel-metal hydride battery. had to post under new name cause i am posting from work.

[plumber]

Noj,

No problem partner. New power tool technology is exploding faster than ever and its easy to mix them up. Anyone who says they've never made a mistake is mistaken. You could write a book chapter with mine.

[SmartA$$]

Jon....I'm not arrogant, I am just a smart a$$, personal stabs don't work with me. Being a smart a$$ is just in my blood.

If I have ticked anyone off with my somewhat short and abrasive answers.....ummmmmm sorry.

That being said, I am just pointing out the proven and undisputable facts that Milwaukee has LEAPED ahead of all the competition in the field of industrial power tools with the introduction of the V28 line of tools.

If you have any lithium ion battery questions, please fire them my way, I may be a smart a$$, but I know batteries (lithium ion).

Have a nice day.

[packers]

SmartA$$,


Makita does make a lithium Ion batteries and tools. Just for the record, it is model number BTD130F. Look it up on the Makita International Web-site...I guess you dont know batteries.......smartA$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[chic]

Packers just talked to makita needed a breakdown on a tool,so i asked about that model you wrote about.it is a impactdriver that is not out yet.asked about lith,batterys they have prototypes but are not out in the field yet.

[chic]

SMARTA$$ nothing personal just had to try to calm you down a little. will agree milw.is about the best made tools outthere excluding the german made .(fien awsome tool high tolorences make them very smooth running and durable but to expensive).so that comment was my bad.(this time).

[packers]

chic,
I know that...nothing was said if it was available yet...but it will be in the next month along with their new line of cordless...so...again Makita does have Lith-ion. And it is not a proto-type. They have it over in Japan, australia, denamrk, and Netherlands. Another thing to add they all has been using it in the field...

[SmartA$$]

Hey there Packer, I know you don't like me............I am not on this board to win friends, but you should really read my posts before you comment on them.

Some of you comments make no sense what so ever when they refer to my posts. I know batteries. That is a given. In particular I know Lithium Ion batteries. The fact that I did not know that Makita makes a little 14.4V impact driver powered by lithium ion cells does not mean that I don't know batteries, sorry dude.

An impact driver is a very interesting first application for the implementation of this battery technology.

14.4V makes it a 4 series pack probably 2 parallel 1.5Ah cells (very likely made by Sony).

Not quite the juice of the Milwaukee tools, but a nice start. I will correct my earlier statement and say that they aren't as far behind the BIG RED MONSTER as most of the other competition.

Have a nice day.

[ 06-15-2005, 03:09 PM: Message edited by: SmartA$$ ]

[Week End Warrior]

Hey smart a$$, you seem to have a good backround in battery tech and your enteries have been, well admusing. What is your trade. What is your woodworking interests. Care to share.

[BatteryGuy]

Originally posted by SmartA$$:

The circuitry in lithium ion packs is to prevent over charge (which causes the very bad lithium plating condition that you mentioned),
The cells used in the Milwaukee V28 batteries are Manganese (Mn2O4) based "Spinel" lithium ion. This cathode material does not contain excess lithium ions like Cobalt and Mixed Oxide based lithium ion chemistries. An overcharged Spinel cell will not plate-out lithium and is thus inherently safer than other chemistries. BG

[packers]

he, he, he, he, thanx battery guy! LOL!

[plumber]

Actually packers you wrote earlier that your teal company has had lithium for quite awhile and were ahead of everybody, now you turn around and write that they arent out yet. So which is it? I am not sure what your are chuckling about but youve made yourself look a bit silly. Milwaukee has been working on theirs for 9 years. They have a whole line of tools released and recieved many, many awards from independent testers and magazines. Please show one test of Makitas lithium tools recorded by an independent source. Just one. :rolleyes:

[packers]

Plumber-


yes, I did say that Makita does make Lihium. And they are available over seas. But I never said that we could get them here....yet that is. Now, you said that my teal company? Now I work for Makita? I would show you a review if I could get one...but I dont live over sea's! I have been told they will be here sometime in the next few months. Also, where did you read that Milwaukee has been testing and researching the lithiums for 9 years? I WOULD LOVE TO SEE THAT! Also, dont believe everything you read.....I think that we all know that!

[michael stephen]

9 YEARS of research??? i wonder whats the result...??? he he he :D :D :D

[imported_Bob D.]

www.v28power.com (http://www.v28power.com)

2005 Editors' Choice Grand Award
May/June, 2005
Tools of the Trade
Read about it here (http://www.v28poer.com/NewsReviews/images/ToolsTrade-EdChoiceMay2005.pdf)

[imported_wbrooks]

Read about it here (http://www.v28power.com/NewsReviews/images/ToolsTrade-EdChoiceMay2005.pdf)

Was missing the w in power in the above link

[SmartA$$]

Very good point Battery Guy. I totally forgot that the Milwaukee batteries were Manganese based and not Cobalt based cells. Therefore there is no risk at all for plating. Hence the reason the packs are so safe. Lots of tech talk in this thread. Not so much as to let secrets out though.

I just decided to troll the boards and plant some seeds of information. And clear up some misinformation about batteries. I have a feeling that some people from the BIG RED MONSTER are posting here.

It is very surprising to see that the batteries are made by Canadians, I guess that is why the packs work so well in the cold (Igloos and all). It must me the mad cow scientists making these freaking crazy 28V packs.

Week End Warrior.............WTF!! R U stalking me?? I don't really do much woodwork other than household repairs but I did get a full set of 28V tools to play with and as a great man once said "THEY ROCK!!".

Have a nice day.

[TheDude]

Hey SmartA$$,

Where the hell did you get your V28 tools. It is my understanding that the tools are not readily available and I would love to get my hands on a set. Please fill me in on where you purchased them.

I have a quick question on lithium ion cells, do you know if you can trickle charge them?

Later.

[Week End Warrior]

lol, sorry smart a$$, didn't mean to sound scary, will not hound you for an autograph, can you comment on memory on these new ion batteries, are they safe to top off, or would they develop a memory. I'm not all that interested in how a tool works only that they do the job well so I tend to have a limited knowledge on this kind of thing. Would be very interested in the 28v skil saw. Thanks smart a$$.

[plumber]

According to the manufacturer there is no memory effect with the lithium battery. Also the tools available for purchase are the drill, circ saw, sawzall, light, band saw and impact driver. Expected to be ready at the first of the year is the Rotary hammer and radio with many other tools in the pipeline. This is from Big Reds official web representitive. They are the only manufacturer I am aware of that actually has three or four people authorized to give tool owners official answers.

To those who don't know where to buy or order them check your local trade distributer. There is a waiting list as demand has far exceeded expectations. Don't know about the trickle charge but I believe you can leave them on their charger indefinatly without damaging the battery.