Weird Setup

[Theron]

Hey guys, I ran into this last night on a job. It was an apartment building that was built in the 1920's in downtown Bellevue, KY. I assume this is called a house trap as i have seen them before. The owner of the place called this a "Barrel Trap" I've never heard that term, is it made up? Some kids had kicked the c/o plug off at the curb and dropped in a couple gatorade bottles and a broom handle. I got that crap out and poked my auger down through it all and got it open. The surprise that i got was when i opened the manhole cover about 20 ft away. The owner stated he was the first building on that section of sewer. I looked down in the manhole about six to eight feet deep, and all i saw at the bottom was what looked like a four inch cleanout holding water. What is that?!? The owner stated that he had looked down there in the past and said that is the way it always looks. Here is the link for all the stuff i'm talking about.
http://www.kompewterz.com/weird.jpg
-Theron

[ToUtahNow]

Yes your drawing is that of a house trap. A house trap is only legal where required by the local jurisdiction. I don’t know of any areas I work where they are allowed.

I did a restoration of a 12-bath home in West Los Angeles which was originally built by Douglas of the old McDonald Douglas Aircraft Company. It was the type of job where I had to tear down all of the old pre-war Crane fixtures and have them re plated. Anyways this house was also built in the 20s and had a weird sewer.

The main line to the street was about 1’000 long. About 40’ before the City connection the line had a set of 1/8 bends elevating the line up about 2-feet then it leveled out for ten feet where a set of 1/8 bends returned it to its original plane. It is what I would consider a house trap on steroids but upside down. It was the strangest thing I had seen in a lateral and I could not see any reason for it so I removed it.

Mark

[plumbdog10]

Originally posted by ToUtahNow:
Yes your drawing is that of a house trap. A house trap is only legal where required by the local jurisdiction. I don’t know of any areas I work where they are allowed.

I did a restoration of a 12-bath home in West Los Angeles which was originally built by Douglas of the old McDonald Douglas Aircraft Company. It was the type of job where I had to tear down all of the old pre-war Crane fixtures and have them re plated. Anyways this house was also built in the 20s and had a weird sewer.

The main line to the street was about 1’000 long. About 40’ before the City connection the line had a set of 1/8 bends elevating the line up about 2-feet then it leveled out for ten feet where a set of 1/8 bends returned it to its original plane. It is what I would consider a house trap on steroids but upside down. It was the strangest thing I had seen in a lateral and I could not see any reason for it so I removed it.

Mark Utah,

The 1/8 bends elevated the line? I'm with you on eliminating that.

P.S. Your post reminds me of a pet-peeve, which I'm going to start a thread on: proper plumbing terms. Your use of 1/8 Bend is what triggered it.
I work with young guys who have no idea what I'm talking about on 1/8 bends.

the dog :cool:

[imported_Bob D.]

Yeah, and a Combo is not something you get at McDonalds :rolleyes:

And what the heck is a coupler anyway? Coupling is the correct name as far as I know.

[Theron]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but a 1/8th bend is a 22.5 right? What is a 60? Does anyone have any ideas on the manhole? I can take a picture of it if i have to. I asked our oldest and most knowledgeable plumber in our shop and he had never heard of such.

[imported_PLUMBER RICK]

theron, an 1/8 bend is a 45 degree fitting. a 22.5 is a 1/16 bend. a 60 is a 6th bend. a very easy way to remember this is to think that all angles are derived from a circle of 360 degrees. a 90 is 1/4 of a circle, hence a 1/4 bend.

the figure fittings can be confusing. a figure 6, 8, 5, 1 are just a few. my favorite is a figure #69. any guesses? it's not what you think.

i'll give you a chance to answer, and i'll post it tomorrow.

rick.

[plumbdog10]

Originally posted by Theron:
Correct me if i'm wrong, but a 1/8th bend is a 22.5 right? What is a 60? Does anyone have any ideas on the manhole? I can take a picture of it if i have to. I asked our oldest and most knowledgeable plumber in our shop and he had never heard of such. Hate to use you as an example, but you are.

the dog

[imported_PLUMBER RICK]

dog, any guesses on a fig.# 69. hint it is a very common fitting, typically found in every residential job.

hint #2 tomorrow.

rick.

[plumbdog10]

Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK:
dog, any guesses on a fig.# 69. hint it is a very common fitting, typically found in every residential job.

hint #2 tomorrow.

rick. The figure #69 I know of is not used everyday, and is used usually by single and sexually active people. Not my preference, but hey, Rick, what ever floats your boat.

the dog :cool:

[imported_PLUMBER RICK]

dog, told you it's not what you think. check with your finish plumbers. they should be able to get it.

mark, you know this fitting. jump in.

my wife likes to go shopping with me and trys to stump me. she wouldn't know if i'm b.s.ing or know the tool. she can stump me at a swap meet with real oddball items.

rick.

[ToUtahNow]

Rick,

Sorry I'm not sure what you are referring to. I know there is a barbed fitting for hose which is a #69 fittihg but I've never heard of a #69 figure fitting.

Mark

[plumber]

"Hint, #2 tommorrow.

Hmm. Not sure what tommorrows bowel movement has to do with it but I am certainly curious.

I hope you are not speaking of an S trap through the floor.

Are some of you other older guys familiar with "a pair of pants"? Or a "Dutchman"?

[plumber]

Theron,

Sorry about the detour from your original post question. You are a young plumber serious about the trade and improving your skills and workplace knowledge. Your requests for information deserve serious response.

Utah is correct about the term house trap. Another correct term is yard trap. They were often installed backwards where a cleanout tape or cable would actually go back into the home leaving the line between the trap and sewer main inaccessable.

I am concerned about your drawing and description of the manhole. How large is the manhole opening? Please do not enter this hole to examine the "clean out" at the bottom unless you have the atmosphere checked and the proper gear and trained back up man to help you should there be a problem. Its not worth it.

[plumbdog10]

Originally posted by plumber:
"Hint, #2 tommorrow.

Hmm. Not sure what tommorrows bowel movement has to do with it but I am certainly curious.

I hope you are not speaking of an S trap through the floor.

Are some of you other older guys familiar with "a pair of pants"? Or a "Dutchman"? In my neck of the woods a "Dutchman" refered to what you did when a closet bend was set too low. You caulked (with lead) a deep-set ring onto the closet bend. You then cut a short piece of 4" cast iron to make-up the difference to the floor, and leaded that in.

Is that your definition?

the dog :cool:

[imported_Bob D.]

The only thing I can think of is a pipe hanger that is often used for fire sprinkler work which is a Fig. #69. It's a tear-shaped hanger I am sure you all have seen many times, but I don't think this is what Rick is referring to.

[plumber]

Plumbdog,

Extremely close on the Dutchman. I'll let a few other old people have a chance to chime in before I reply.

[plumber]

Bob, Are you referring to a pear hanger, sometimes called a tear drop hanger? Connected to an anchor or clamp via threaded rod. Or the hinged clevis hanger?

[ToUtahNow]

I liked Plumbdogs explanation. I always thought a Dutchman was when you scabed in a piece of material to patch a void. In addition, in the old days if we didn't have hand crimpers to change a duct to a male end we would cut a Dutchman cut in the pipe to join it with a second pipe.

Mark

[plumber]

Well it seems the Dutchman has been around a lot more places and done more than I thought.

The Dutchman I used all the time was a piece of four inch lead pipe stamped inside a steel or iron collar. The collar was packed and leaded into the spigot of a cast iron waste ell just below the floor under a toilet. The lead pipe was either 6 inches, one foot or two feet depending on what you ordered. This was then either formed into a lead closet flange by the really skilled old timers before me or had a brass closet flange wiped to it by plumbers like me.

[Theron]

Thanks for the reply on the manhole. We're not allowed inside manholes, just to use them to visibly inspect something or running a line backwards with leader pipe. I wouldn't ever go in one anyways - one of our boys in Atlanta died this summer of methane when he went down in a manhole without any of the proper procedures or equipment. Left a wife and two kids behind - in his late 20's. The manhole I'm questioning was of usual size (a plate about two or three feet in diameter) it was approximately six feet to the bottom. All that was in the bottom was that four inch looking c/o with no cap. It had the appearance of a c/o holding water, but that is the way this one always looks according to the property owner.

[ToUtahNow]

Theron,

Are you sure it isn't just a manhole cover and concrete riser to gain access to the cleanout? It may be the sewer line was only installed as a 4" line from the begining but they wanted access to grade via the manhole and concrete riser.

Mark

[imported_PLUMBER RICK]

ok, a figure #69 is a compression x mip 90. commonly used in the water connection to a dishwasher. 3/8'' comp. x 3/8'' mip brass 90.
a figure #68 is a comp. x mip straight connector.

a dutchman as i was always told was a lead joint poured to compensate for a closet bend that didn't come up all the way to the top of the flange. in fact i have a wooden tapered plug that i shove into the top of the closet bend that i then pour lead into to make the pipe come flush to the closet flange.

rick.

[ToUtahNow]

Okay I looked up dutchman in a couple of online dictionarys. It appears a generic definition would be "a material used to conceal faulty construction".

As for calling a compression elbow a #69 fitting, is a bit of a stretch. That is more of a stock number than a plumbing term.

Mark

[imported_Bob D.]

Originally posted by plumber:
Bob, Are you referring to a pear hanger, sometimes called a tear drop hanger? Connected to an anchor or clamp via threaded rod. Or the hinged clevis hanger? Yep, that's what I am talking about and how we refer to them (pear hanger) around here. No one calls them a Fig. 69 hanger but that is the Grinnell model number I remember correctly.

[Theron]

Yeah i took the cover off. The c/o was at the bottom of the manhole about 6-8 feet down. We always called that a dishwasher elbow by the way.

[plumbdog10]

Originally posted by Bob D.:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by plumber:
Bob, Are you referring to a pear hanger, sometimes called a tear drop hanger? Connected to an anchor or clamp via threaded rod. Or the hinged clevis hanger? Yep, that's what I am talking about and how we refer to them (pear hanger) around here. No one calls them a Fig. 69 hanger but that is the Grinnell model number I remember correctly. </font>[/QUOTE]Bob,

Out here in California, I've always known "tear-drop hangers" as "adjustable band hangers". It's regional differences.

But, Rick's #69 means nothing to me. I have always ordered compression fittings by their proper description.

the dog :cool:

[plumber]

Out here in California, I've always known "tear-drop hangers" as "adjustable band hangers". It's regional differences.

But, Rick's #69 means nothing to me. I have always ordered compression fittings by their proper description.

the dog :cool: [/QB][/QUOTE]


Dog, you mean "that thingamabob with a doohicky attached" is not a proper plumbing term?

[plumber]

.
A pair of pants is a term used to describe the make up of a double stubout and vent combination behind a kitchen sink cabinet made with leadpipe and bar solder. The appearance of this piping before installation in the wall had the appearance of a pair of pants. I thought this was a national description but may be more localized to Illinois and Missouri than I realized. They were still widely used until the early 70s when ABS and PVC gained more acceptance.