flat rate pricing is for the birds

[draintech1]

I'm shocked and appalled at my current company for the insane pricing they are trying to pull off with this flat rate pricing mumbo-jumbo!I seriously have trouble sleeping at night sometimes thinking about the look on customers faces when I tell them the price of some of the simplest things.Unfortunately, some of these people pay this "price" because my company has been around for 20 plus years and they trust(or used to trust) us. The whole flat rate pricing is new to my company (within the last year or so) and I just can't understand why my boss, who is a great man, went to flat rate pricing. He went from a one man show in the early 80s to 15 guys in '05, all without flat rate pricing. Now it seems like we are loosing customers right and left because of our prices. C'mon, over $325 to pull a commode and change the wax ring? I'm flabergasted. Over $150 to change a flapper? Get real! It's all how you present it is what they tell me. It's not a flapper, it's a water control diaphragm and if it leaks for a year straight, it's enough water to fill a swimming pool. Yeah,thanx,it's also 5 bucks and takes less than five minutes to change out. I just don't know what to do besides leave and I'm afraid where I'm at, all the other bigger and well-known plumbing and drain cleaning companies are going to flat rate pricing also. Well I don't buy it and that's when it's even harder to sell it. Any suggestions? Plumber Rick, any word of advice? Am I wrong to feel this way? Thanks.

[mtburdick]

I agree with you whole heartedly. My company does flat rate priceing also. The lady looked at us like we were crazy when we charged her $300 for snakeing her secondary drain. We were only there 15 minutes or so and gone. Sort of feels like your ripping people off.

[HVAC HAWK]

did you bring this up to the boss . i have bin with my company for 16 yrs and from day one they have open door with us and i have talked open minded with them and gave them my thoughts about things i did not agree with and they sometimes change there mind's .did they explain why they are doing this?

[PLUMBER RICK]

draintech1, i like you already from your first post.

when i was in the union, 1981-1995, we did new construction and had to be very competitive to get the contract. in those days the projects were priced anywhere from $50,000- 4.5 million. we had to compete against the union and non union shops.

now i'm self employed and i don't have to compete against anyone. in fact i don't advertise. case in point is that if you are honest and good to your clients, the work will come to you.

what your shop did was try to get rich fast, at others expenses. this is one of the main reasons why i'm not interested in joining the p.h.c.c.
what they preach is the flat rate system of ripping off the customer.

one of the issues with service and repair is that most calls are for emergencies. clients typically call for service and don't tend to question pricing. most of the flat rate service shops employ salesmen and not real, licensed journeyman plumbers. they are typically on comission. the more they sell the more they make. they have to spend lots on advertising and don't tend to get repeat customers.

my buddy employs 18 plumbers and helpers. they are not on comission and are not flat rate. in fact the guys in the field don't even leave an invoice. the customers get an invoice approx. 1 week later. he gets plumbers from other shops that come to him looking for work because they are tired of having to convince the client why it's $300. for a ballcock and flapper.

my suggestion is to talk to the owner of your company and tell them why you're not happy. chances are you will be looking for a new job. this will be a good thing for you. time to move on and get back to being a trusted and honest plumber.

good for you on questioning the latest racket in ripping off the public.

if you're in the los angeles area, i can get you an interview with a well respected shop.

if not, then you need to find a shop that lives up to your morals. a few phone calls is all that it should take to find a respectable shop.

good luck.

rick.

[Theron]

Where are y'all getting your flat rate pricing from? Those prices are ridiculous. I work for one of those big drain cleaning and plumbing outfits who typically employ salesmen and not licensed plumbers that earn commission. Commission = Motivation (that can be good or bad). I'm motivated to do more work, work harder, and do high quality work to keep call backs down. Some are motivated by money - charge more, do it cheaper, hope it doesn't break. I do their callbacks all week long and hang my head in shame and disgust at what some of our "future unemployees" charge for just how little they can get by with. I have a flat rate pricing book, I keep it at home on the bookshelf and not in my truck. The prices are reasonable, but i usually charge a little less anyways - especially for little old ladies. I usually base my price on our hourly rate, and how long i think it will take me to do it. Our hourly rate is $120, but our area averages around $100, so we're not too far off. With our company though, you can pretty much charge whatever you want within reason. I can do a minor toilet rebuild down in the projects for $75 one day and $125 the next in the towne center area. I usually get a lot of personal repeat business because my prices are reasonable and my work is good. I couldn't live with charging people $300 for a toilet rebuild. Around here, people just wouldn't pay it- it would be a slow day of just driving around passing out estimates.

So to get to my point - not all flat rate companies or employees of those companies are pricing-"rapers"

[PLUMBER RICK]

Where are y'all getting your flat rate pricing from? Those prices are ridiculous. I work for one of those big drain cleaning and plumbing outfits who typically employ salesmen and not licensed plumbers that earn commission. Commission = Motivation (that can be good or bad). I'm motivated to do more work, work harder, and do high quality work to keep call backs down. Some are motivated by money - charge more, do it cheaper, hope it doesn't break. I do their callbacks all week long and hang my head in shame and disgust at what some of our "future unemployees" charge for just how little they can get by with. I have a flat rate pricing book, I keep it at home on the bookshelf and not in my truck. The prices are reasonable, but i usually charge a little less anyways - especially for little old ladies. I usually base my price on our hourly rate, and how long i think it will take me to do it. Our hourly rate is $120, but our area averages around $100, so we're not too far off. With our company though, you can pretty much charge whatever you want within reason. I can do a minor toilet rebuild down in the projects for $75 one day and $125 the next in the towne center area. I usually get a lot of personal repeat business because my prices are reasonable and my work is good. I couldn't live with charging people $300 for a toilet rebuild. Around here, people just wouldn't pay it- it would be a slow day of just driving around passing out estimates.

So to get to my point - not all flat rate companies or employees of those companies are pricing-"rapers"

theron, i like your ethics, but i have a question:confused:

how can you charge 1 price and another person from the the same co. charge another price on the same flat rate job?

sort of like going to mcdonalds and ordering a big mac from one cashier and getting a different price from another cashier.:eek:

rick.

[michael stephen]

[QUOTE=draintech1]I'm shocked and appalled at my current company for the insane pricing they are trying to pull off with this flat rate pricing mumbo-jumbo!I seriously have trouble sleeping at night sometimes thinking about the look on customers faces when I tell them the price of some of the simplest things.Unfortunately, some of these people pay this "price" because my company has been around for 20 plus years and they trust(or used to trust) us. The whole flat rate pricing is new to my company (within the last year or so) and I just can't understand why my boss, who is a great man, went to flat rate pricing. He went from a one man show in the early 80s to 15 guys in '05, all without flat rate pricing. Now it seems like we are loosing customers right and left because of our prices. C'mon, over $325 to pull a commode and change the wax ring? I'm flabergasted. Over $150 to change a flapper? Get real! It's all how you present it is what they tell me. It's not a flapper, it's a water control diaphragm and if it leaks for a year straight, it's enough water to fill a swimming pool. Yeah,thanx,it's also 5 bucks and takes less than five minutes to change out. I just don't know what to do besides leave and I'm afraid where I'm at, all the other bigger and well-known plumbing and drain cleaning companies are going to flat rate pricing also. Well I don't buy it and that's when it's even harder to sell it. Any suggestions? Plumber Rick, any word of advice? Am I wrong to feel this way? Thanks.[/Q $150 to change a flapper?? you must be kidding...

[Theron]

theron, i like your ethics, but i have a question:confused:

how can you charge 1 price and another person from the the same co. charge another price on the same flat rate job?

sort of like going to mcdonalds and ordering a big mac from one cashier and getting a different price from another cashier.:eek:

rick.
I understand what you're saying rick. I don't just automatically jack the price up when i drive over to the mansions. Re-reading my post it did sound like i do that. I quote the same prices to everyone for their particular problem; accessing the problem, cleanliness of their property, and other factors can obviously make the price different. For example, I charge more to rebuild an old one peice toilet than i do a regular toilet, because the parts are usually not on my truck, and travel time to get the parts and the parts are more expensive than usual parts. I don't start at $75 for the projects. I start at $125 - when people tell me they can't afford it, I lower the price until they can (within reason). Some people want you to auger their main for $30. When i lower the prices to be competitive with other plumbers in their particular area, it makes us affordable, and it beats a blank. All our estimates are free, if i couldn't work with the prices, I'd be broke.

[plumber]

I agree flat rate pricing is a rip off. It seems all many people care about is how much money they can have. Well when that money comes from gouging people, particularly the elderly, infirm or under-educated then its immoral. I don't care if its legal or not.

years ago I worked with an outfit that went to flat rate pricing and I quit one week later. I am proud of that decision made so many years ago and never regretted it for a second.

drain tech1,
If its keeping you up at night and you feel its wrong then thats because it is, and you will enjoy your life a lot more if you move on. Don't just quit, make sure you obtain different employment first. They will try and compare it to a mechanics shop but thats apples and oranges.

[HVAC HAWK]

drain tech 1 if you can tell i like where i work and the people i work for .when i moved from NY to pa 16yrs ago i was hired at the first place i went to but not enough $ :( the 2nd place i said to them that when i am done on a job i put my name on it to say I'm proud of this job.and they did not want to start me with the $ i wanted so i said that you can fire me if you do not like my work but it is hard to get more $ from you later. he looked at me :eek: and then :rolleyes: he said OK i will give you a try :D . he started me at the $ i wanted :cool: . to this day I'm still here and i do not think he regrets taking a gamble . he tells me that he likes my positive attitude and my pride in my work . i believe to give a customer a good job for what they pay. i now put on equipment i just put in boiler or ac unit the company sticker and my sticker installed with pride by charlie
we do not advertise , just on 25 vans , thats Wye we take them home and has my name on it . we need to wash them every week, and thats Wye we get repeat business . so go to a job that you and the company have the same pride in the work you do

[draintech1]

Thanks for all of your replies. It's due time to make a change. What was once my passion has become my dread and I don't think that is what a profession should be like. I truly believe that flat rate pricing is a get rich quick scheme and I am ashamed of myself for continuing in it for 6 months, but there are better days ahead. If there is anyone reading this in the plumbing profession and you aren't flat rate pricing, stay that way. It's better to walk out with less money and a happy customer than to walk out with more money and a customer that will never call back and then tell 10 of their friends. I wish I had never heard of flat "rape" pricing!!

[plumber]

Don't be ashamed of yourself. Your employer made the decision to rip off his customers not you. You are a responsible employee who is doing his best as instructed. That you have finally decided that you have had enough is a sign that you have nothing to be ashamed of, unless of course you keep on doing it after passing up other opportunities.

I was lucky and had another place to go, but you still have to pay your bills so look before leaping.

[HVAC HAWK]

if you do not mind where do you live maybe some one can help find a new happy place to work:D :D

[PLUMBER RICK]

if you do not mind where do you live maybe some one can help find a new happy place to work:D :D

i forwarded this to my buddie in los angeles. before he even read the whole thread, he was interested in you. send me an email if this sounds good and i'll pass it along to him.

rick.

[ECS]

I'm new to the forum and I'm very curious what you think of these prices:

1/2 hp ISE 240.00
single handle ks faucet w/spray (bg chrome) 400.00
minor tank rebuild 100.00
2 piece bg water closet 375.00
cable 1 1/2 to 3" line w/3/8" to 1/2" cable 150.00
rebuild 3 handle tub/shwr vlv- stems,seats,trim 370.00
2 piece toto drake- tank bowl seat 525.00
40 gal. gas water heater 950.00
expansion tank 200.00
sewage pump 800.00

when you respond, would you be willing to indicate whether you are an owner or employee, thanks.

[PLUMBER RICK]

I'm new to the forum and I'm very curious what you think of these prices:

1/2 hp ISE 240.00 what model # badger 5 $60.00 or pro 333 $120.
single handle ks faucet w/spray (bg chrome) 400.00 delta 300 $85.
minor tank rebuild 100.00 fluidmaster and flapper $10.00
2 piece bg water closet 375.00 ?
cable 1 1/2 to 3" line w/3/8" to 1/2" cable 150.00 machine charge $25.00
rebuild 3 handle tub/shwr vlv- stems,seats,trim 370.00 price phister $45.00
2 piece toto drake- tank bowl seat 525.00 toilet is approx. $200.
40 gal. gas water heater 950.00 heater cost approx. $280.
expansion tank 200.00 cost approx. $45.00
sewage pump 800.00 zoller m257 cost aprox. $220.

when you respond, would you be willing to indicate whether you are an owner or employee, thanks. plumbing contractor


these prices are high compared to my prices. my hourly is $75.00 with 25 years of plumbing experience. not to mention being licensed, insured and bonded. and more specialty equipment than most any company.

rick.

[ECS]

I'm asking what you install these items for, parts & labor. I already know what the parts cost. Do you charge a service call fee? what area of the country are you in?

[PLUMBER RICK]

I'm asking what you install these items for, parts & labor. I already know what the parts cost. Do you charge a service call fee? what area of the country are you in?

ecs, since i charge time and material, i don't have a flat rate price. but to be realistic, i charge a minimum of a 1/2 hour. a disposal or toilet typically runs 1 hour. a water heater 2-4 hours. i don't advertise and i don't wait for the phone to ring. all of my work is from repeat customers, referrals, and other contractors.

by the way i'm in los angeles, calif.

since you're new to this forum, i would suggest that you look up and read some of the earlier post by myself and others. it seems that most of us agree that flat rate is a big rip off. the customers typically don't call you back for repeat business. i've never lost a job to a flat rate company.

rick.

[ECS]

I hope you don't mind me asking these questions, but I really want to know.
If you don't want to answer then don't.

Are you a one man shop?

How do you calculate time? Actual repair time or from the time you get there until the time you put your truck in drive?

Do you charge for drive time to come out?

[PLUMBER RICK]

I hope you don't mind me asking these questions, but I really want to know.
If you don't want to answer then don't.

Are you a one man shop? yes,with a real 2500sq.' shop

How do you calculate time? Actual repair time or from the time you get there until the time you put your truck in drive? from the time i get there till i put the tools away. computer billing is on my time.

Do you charge for drive time to come out? there is a first hour $20.00 service charge 3 years ago to cover my travel, lost time, and insurance. i started this service charge as my insurance rates went up over 400% with no claims. i guess they figure plumbers are the cause of mold.

hope this helps.

now my questions

where are you located?
do you work for a shop, or yourself?
why do you charge a flat rate?
what percentage of calls are estimates?
what percentage do you actually get?

rick.

[plumber]

ECS,

Some more questions for you.

Who and what are you? Do you write for a trade magazine or have a financial interest in protecting the flat rate scam? Do you profit from selling flat rate based franchises or books?

Are you a flat rate contractror and if so:

When changing a water heater do you add 200 dollars to your 950 dollar charge to add that expansion tank?

If they ask you to rebuild a toilet while you are in the bathroom rebuilding a faucet for 370 dollars do you add another 100 dollars to the bill even though you are standing right there with your tool box and your truck is 50 seconds away?

How well do you pay your repairmen? Do you offer good benefits and retirement? Or do you get by with the cheapest help you can scrape up from the probation office?

I hope you don't mind me asking these questions but they really deserve an answer.

[HVAC HAWK]

rick
you may have to download a spell check program . did you click on the abc on the top right . i had to add this to my reply


rick and plumber
i hope you did not scare off RCS with all the questions :( ha ha .

[draintech1]

You know, I have shared ideas with my manager many times before about what I see out in the field, what I hear other companies doing and charging,what customers tell me right before they give me my trip charge and tell me to get out of their house, and what can make the company better and he just doesn't want to hear it. He says in the proverbial salesman talk that everything we offer and do with our prices is what sets us apart from other companies. I agree that a company should be different from other companies and you should always go an extra step so the customer will remember your service, but really the biggest thing that sets us apart from other companies is typically we are twice to three times higher than anyone else, and we're not offering enough to justify the price. Like I said before, $150 to change out a flapper......should be a complete tank rebuild. I don't care that it's a WB flapper called Big Orange and it's bright orange that has a special antioxident that resist the harsh chemicals and by-products of the city water supply. It's just a flapper!! But I keep coming to work everyday hoping that they see the calls are down, morale in low, money isn't being brought in but he still has to pay his crew, and maybe they might realize it's time to either lower the prices or get things back the way they used to be when it worked. I'm done. Done worrying,done wondering,done hoping. Just done.As for that ESC or ECS or whoever it was, those prices you had for that stuff was just barely shaking a stick at our prices. 40 gall. gas water heater for over 1600 bucks, complete tank rebuild with fluidmaster just over 380 bucks, sinkmaster garbage disposal just over 515 bucks. Can you see why my face flinches just as much as the customers about the prices?I used to live in L.A. county in the mojave dessert and I thought the prices were high. Nope. I think where I'm at now takes the cake, and I get to hear about it on every job I go on.But I'm looking.Does anyone know if you see the initials PHCC,if that pretty much means they are doing flat rate pricing? I'm about 40 miles north of Denver and that tends to be what I'm seeing at alot of the places I want to talk to. Anyways, thanks Plumber Rick for kind of putting me out there where you are. If I was still in Cali. I would definitely want an interview.:)

[ToUtahNow]

I have mixed emotions regarding flat-rate charges. The automotive repair shops have used flat-rate pricing forever but no one seems to complain about them. While I still had my shop we never used flat rate pricing or paid our repair plumbers’ commission because I felt it led to greed and theft. Still there is a reason to consider flat-rate pricing in today’s market.

An example of the above would be when a customer calls and wants a new kitchen sink with all of the trimmings installed. For argument sake I will assume she has all of the materials and only needs labor. If I quote $85.00 per hour I know my plumber can easily be out of there in 2-hours and do a nice professional job. The homeowner will end up paying $170.00 for the job.

Now take a shop where they give their “plumbers” 6-weeks of “training” and have a labor rate of $65.00 per hour. As the second company uses poorly qualified plumbers’ it takes the plumber 4-hours to do the same job. The customer ends up paying $280.00 for the same job and it is just an Okay job. If I had quoted a flat-rate of $280.00 the customer would have gotten a better job and I would have made more money.

The problem of course is the flat-rate companies are going to charge the $85.00 rate and call the job a 6-hour job hence costing the customer $510.00 for the same job. I guess what I am trying to say is it is not the concept of flat-rate pricing which is wrong; it is the labor multipliers used by the flat-rate companies I have a problem with.

Mark

[plumber]

Utah,

The comparison between mechanics flat rate and the rate any type of repair trades work is apples and oranges

A flat rate service contractor figures at least a one hour drive time into every single job. even if the custmer is five minutes from the shop and if the repairman is already in the house he still has to charge the flat rate if the owner needs another job performed. Using a 250 dollar fee to change out a pump for example may not be outragous but then, while in the home, the seviceman must charge 110 dollars to change a flapper and ballcock even while he was walking by the bathroom is pure thievery. and when these guys are flat rating 1000 dollars to change out a water tank they should be sent to jail and if ECS is adding 200 dollars to his $950 water heater replacement for an expansion tank he should be run out of his town on a rail. His plumber is already standing beside the tank and his torch and wrenchs are already out, if it takes him more than an additional 20 or 30 minutes even allowing for a diffucult placement situation then he needs to retrain or replace his plumber.

The auto mechanics book simply figures the time and material for a competent person to do the repair without drive time and travel expenses figured in on each reapair. The car is already on the lot or even on the lift and there is no time figured in each item for gasoline, vehicle expenses and the like.

You are also correct that these guys on commision are often in the home of elderly or infirm people who may not know any better. More than once perfectly good cast iron systems have been yanked out of homes belonging to elderly folks only to be replaced by poorly installed plastic pipe. same for water systems. The service "tech" made himself and his company a tidy profit for the scam. And often the original problem they were called out for still exists. You would think these crooks wouldn't be so stupid as to just leave the perfectly good pipe in their victims yards or alley ways but they almost always do.

[ToUtahNow]

I see the main difference between the flat-rate plumber and the flat-rate auto mechanic is you are not watching the auto mechanic. Before my brother-in-law opened his plumbing shop he was a Ford transmission mechanic. On a good day he could rebuild three transmissions per day. He was paid 8-hours per transmission which meant the customer was charged 8-hours for the transmission labor. I believe flat-rate pricing makes it too easy to be dishonest.

On another note HVAC work can be just as bad. I am looking on a project up North where an HVAC company is convincing owners living in a retirement community that all of their duct work needs to be replaced at a cost of $5,000 per home. These are newer 1,300 to 1,800 sq ft homes and all I can find is they may need some addition dampers and a good balancing job on their existing system.

Mark

[plumber]

people who use their tradesmen or contractor status to rip off unsuspecting homeowners or building owners is all too common. I think harsher penalties for unscrupulous people and stricter trade and licensing laws should be implemented nation wide. Too many places let anyone with a tool box open a business. Too many other places slightly test someone once or twice then never look at them or their work and ethics again.


Every contractor or tradesperson will have an occasional bad day where they are thinking of a bad argument with their spouse or their sick child all day and simply make a bone headed mistake, maybe a bad flu bug ect.. If they don't they are not human. but when a contractor or tradesman is constantly doing things wrong or taking their customers to the cleaners then perhaps we need a better course of action available than just calling our states attourney general. Too often they are overworked with more serious criminal activities to adequately monitor the contracting industries.

[ECS]

Utah,

The comparison between mechanics flat rate and the rate any type of repair trades work is apples and oranges

A flat rate service contractor figures at least a one hour drive time into every single job. even if the custmer is five minutes from the shop and if the repairman is already in the house he still has to charge the flat rate if the owner needs another job performed. Using a 250 dollar fee to change out a pump for example may not be outragous but then, while in the home, the seviceman must charge 110 dollars to change a flapper and ballcock even while he was walking by the bathroom is pure thievery. and when these guys are flat rating 1000 dollars to change out a water tank they should be sent to jail and if ECS is adding 200 dollars to his $950 water heater replacement for an expansion tank he should be run out of his town on a rail. His plumber is already standing beside the tank and his torch and wrenchs are already out, if it takes him more than an additional 20 or 30 minutes even allowing for a diffucult placement situation then he needs to retrain or replace his plumber.

The auto mechanics book simply figures the time and material for a competent person to do the repair without drive time and travel expenses figured in on each reapair. The car is already on the lot or even on the lift and there is no time figured in each item for gasoline, vehicle expenses and the like.

You are also correct that these guys on commision are often in the home of elderly or infirm people who may not know any better. More than once perfectly good cast iron systems have been yanked out of homes belonging to elderly folks only to be replaced by poorly installed plastic pipe. same for water systems. The service "tech" made himself and his company a tidy profit for the scam. And often the original problem they were called out for still exists. You would think these crooks wouldn't be so stupid as to just leave the perfectly good pipe in their victims yards or alley ways but they almost always do.


Webster's dictionary defines libel, among other things as "a: a written or oral defamatory statement or representation that conveys and unjustly unfavorable impression. b: a statement or representation published without just cause and tending to expose another to public contempt."

What this means is, Plumber, you are the only criminal here, and if I had a lawyer and knew who you were, you can be certain that you would be hearing from him on Monday morning. How dare you accuse me of robbing little old ladies! You don't know me. You don't know anything about me, except that I use a pricing system that you don't like. How is it that you have so much time to go around "investigating" everybody else's business anyway, or did you even bother to investigate? Are their crooks who use flat rate? Absolutely! Are there crooks that charge $65.00 an hour? Absolutely! I've never told someone they needed something that they didn't, and when it's marginal I tell them so, and when it's perfectly fine I tell them so. If I tell someone beforehand that my price to install their water heater is $950.00 and they say go ahead and when I get done I hand them a bill for $950.00, tell me how I've stolen from them. You can't because I haven't but you are perfectly willing to condemn me simply because I charge more than you THINK I should. As for the expansion tank, yes it's $200.00 more and it absolutely should be and here's why: 1. I paid $50 for that tank and the associated copper fittings necessary to install it. It rode around on my truck, taking up space and burning gas for some period of time not making any return on my investment until someone requested I install it. It rode on my truck so that I would have it when they needed it and not have to charge them 30min or an hour drive time to go get it, but they absolutely do and should pay "rent" for my truck space. 2. It's not part of the water heater! Maybe you think I should do it for free "since I'm already there". It's a seperate charge! 3. You value your time at $65.00 an hour and I value mine at $150.00 (just for your education, every flat rate system is based ultimately on t&m, how could you possibly know what your flat rate should be unless you first know what your costs and labor will be). I can't help it that you think so little of your skills, or perhaps you don't have many, I don't know, but as for me, I am a state certified master plumber and I got that way from ojt not somebody's 60 day school! The knowledge and skill I possess came to me through considerable blood, sweat, and years. My family made sacrifices while I learned my trade. I AM NOT GIVING IT AWAY TO ANYBODY, unless I choose to. If they knew how to do it themselves they would have, unless they just didn't feel like it. In either case if they call me, the professional, THEY HAVE TO PAY and I don't need any more reason than that to charge them $200.00 or $2000.00 if I think I should. If you need a heart surgeon (or a brain surgeon) you pay the man or your insurance does, either way he gets paid or he doesn't operate and you die. The surgeon doesn't owe you anything except that if you ask him to operate and promise to pay him then he owes you the very finest operation his knowledge and skill will allow. Now I'm no surgeon but no one is entitled to my plumbing services! If they want it, I can provide it. Now as a matter of personal practice, when I'm doing repair work, if there are multiple repairs I will usually, depending on what it is, give discounts on all but the most expensive repair (I am not a slave to the flat rate price guide) but I don't do this for replacement or new installations and I'm not obligated to do it at all. Plumber, the next time you go into your favorite fast food place, after you eat your $2 cheese burger, I want you to go back to the counter and ask for another for $1 and when they tell you no I want you to stand there and fume and foam and tell them what theives they are!

The next time you want to paint an entire group of people with the same wicked brush, you ought to think about it twice. I am not a thief and I don't use a lot of high pressure sales tactics and I don't give my clients half truths or misleading advice and you, Mr. Plumber owe me a very contrite and very public apology!

[PLUMBER RICK]

ecs, i think that you're way too harsh to plumber and the rest of us on this forum. as you can see, we all have our personal opinions on the flat rate system. i for one feel it's a big scam and a rip off. from reading this thread on flat rate, it seems that you're the only one that uses it with any success.

plumber and i have had our differences on this forum over the year+ that we have been contributing. you on the other hand are brand new here with no personal info. i have personally given you my rates and info you asked for. we asked you a simple couple of questions and you've not even attempted to answer them.

such as: what part of the country are you from?
what type of business do you run? self employed? #of men?

by the way, if you really want to compare what you have invested to what i have invested, you lose. no doubt about that. sight unseen you lose.

if you want to contribute, fine. if you want to start pointing fingers, you don't have enough time on this forum to hold a "plunger" to plumber or myself or some of the regulars.

i know that plumber is more than capable of holding his own ground.
you on the other hand are very questionable:confused:


i suggest that if you want to play on an even field, you should share some of your personal info. we have uncovered many phonies this past year.:p

read back a month or a year. our info is all there.

looking forward to your bio.

looking forward to plumber's responce. time to nuke some popcorn, this is going to be better than a night at the movies.:eek:


rick.

plumber, i know you can hold your own, but this is the reason why i don't join the phcc. they all have the same script. chances are we know who this is and he doesn't want to divulge his co.

[plumb crazy purple]

The way I see it is that the customer, in most cases, can choose to accept the price or decline. I don't charge a flat rate. I have my hourly rate and I use that as a basis when bidding on a job. Most of my customers want to know up front how much a job will cost. So, I give them a bid price based on an estimated T&M. I've done enough jobs now that I have at least an idea of how long it will take. If there are other "change orders", I bill accordingly again based on T&M. The customer can accept my bid or decline it. After all, I know how I would tackle a particular job and about how long it would take me. Another plumber may know how to do the same job faster and for less cost. I figure if I don't get awarded the bid, no problem, because I don't want to work for free. What I hate is when I run into problems and it takes me longer to repair.

[PLUMBER RICK]

plumb crazy, this is pretty much how a competive bid is done. what we are really discussing is the service and repair end. typically the customer who calls one of these companies from the phone book is desperate. most customers are easy prey and are desperate. the customer might not know the going price of a water heater or stoppage or some other emergency repair. of course the customer can say no. the problem is they trust the professional. i see it all the time in sewer inspections. 90% of the time the customer who is sold a sewer repair was pressured into it by a slick talking commissioned "tech". i have yet to see a video left for the owner. less than 5% of the jobs i camera actually need to be replaced. most just need a proper cleaning. some a real cleanout installed. i always leave a video tape for the owner. there is never a pressure sales pitch. i ask plenty of questions on a new job location. with my regular clients, i am able to track all of the past jobs on my laptop in the truck.



like i said earlier, when you have a construction site contract. you have to be competative to get the bid. when you have a service and repair situation, the customer is not as informed as a builder or developer. they are very desperate when they have to look up in the yellow pages to get a plumber. the plumbing co should not be out there to rip off the customer. all we are saying is don't try to charge $7.50 for a bottle of coke. i don't care how good the service is.

25 plus years in this industry has shown me who the thiefs are and who the honest, hard working plumbers are. i see it every week at the supply house and from new customers horror stories:eek:

read my thread on underqualified plumbers and inspectors.

there is not a flat rate co. that can compete with me in price or quality. i don't advertise, and i don't sit at home.

the sad part is that most don't learn that lesson until they were ripped off by the flat rate co. first.

sound like we are on the same page with this, plumb crazy.:)

rick.

[ToUtahNow]

ECS,

I’m with Rick and believe plumber is more than qualified to offer his opinion here. With all due respect we know nothing about your qualifications as you have yet to add anything of value to the Forum. You may or may not be a qualified and talented plumber. I guess we will have to wait and see what you are made of but to call plumber a criminal for voicing his opinion is way out of line. Besides that, libel has nothing to do with a criminal offense so get your fact straight.

As for charging $1,100.00 to install a water heater and expansion tank I guess it depends on what heater you are installing. To suggest just because you offer a price to a lay person and they accept your price makes it Okay is ridiculous. Without more information only you know whether you are gouging that customer or not.

Mark

[HVAC HAWK]

ecs i to do not like flat rate , the company i work for does a lot of bid work but the service dpt does repairs t&m and starts there time from when they leave there last job to the time there done . if they need parts they do not have on the truck you cant have every thing , that time to get the parts the costumer pays for this . but if the part comes off the truck they pay for the cost of that part and a small mark up ,not a storage fee . there should be certain things on your truck for every day repairs ,and you should not charge that storage fee .now with special parts you cant have every thing. but today with back flow preventer's on the water main you need a expansion tank and this should normal truck stock . this is Wye some of us are called professionals ,and home owners expect us to have the things we need to do the job with out rental fees .

now this is my opinion , take it the way you want with out the threat of a lawyer ,thats what this forum is about is to ask other trades men there opinion.take it or leave it:)

[CWSmith]

I'm not in the business, but my father was and over the years, he worked for several companies; so I have a fair understanding of the business and the need to make a fair buck or two.

But I am a consumer and as such, I have no problem at all with Plumber's point of view and would much prefer to do business with anyone in the business that fairly approaches jobs in that manner. Regarding ECS, I'm under the impression that you feel "gifted" or something. Personally I find it rather bizarre thinking that because you had purchased a part and then carried it around in the back of your truck for a length of time ("wasting" or "using" extra gas), and think that it all justifies charging a much higher price to the customer. And Yes, I suppose that if you gave your customer a price up front, and they, faced with NOT accepting it and then having to try to find someone else, are willing to pay you.... well, how can you be accused of ripping them off?

However, look at it from a customer's point of view. They call you, they're NOT plumbers and they call you because they have no level of expertise. All they know is that you're in the book and you're supposed to be a professional and at the moment they place that call, they need YOU and afterall, these guys are all pretty competive, arn't they?

So, they pay your $950 for a couple of reasons. #1, you're the professional and #2, they think you're honest and will give them a fair cost on what it takes to do this job. Then, down the road, they find out that maybe a "fair cost", a "competitive" cost would have been $500. Obviously, they didn't know this when they accepted your charge; so who's going to feel ripped off and who's the victim here and who was the victimizer?

You remind me of an Uncle I once had, who felt it was perfectly justified to take advantage of anyone who was, as he often put it, "too stupid to keep thier money".

Personally, I really hate plumbing. It's dirty, filthy work and I'll avoid doing it whenever and wherever possible. It takes more skill and patience than I can muster. But, I'm also a bit skepticle about someone's idea of what a job costs to do. I recently had one of the leading companies in my area quote me $2300 to replace a toilet and a set of faucets. I buy the toilet and I pay for the faucets separately... that's $2300 to to unbolt the old toilet, shutoff and loosen the supply line, clean up the flange and then add a new seal, position the new toilet, bolt the thing to the flange and reconnect the supply line. Faucets, can be a bear, but still, how much is it all worth. Maybe he was charging "book rate", beats the heck out of me. I ended up asking my carpenter if he knew anyone who would do it. He had it done in like two hours or so. He charged me $300! I gave him an extra $100! Guess who I thought was trying to rip me off?

Generally, as a consumer I don't do "book" nothing. I learned that years ago when I got 5 hours of "bookrate" charges on a automotive repair. Okay, but I stood there in the shop and the guy didn't spend two hours! At $50 shop rate, I wasn't about to get overcharged.... where's the manager?

Don't get me wrong, I will pay every fair dime and then some when the charges are real, but I won't stand for being overcharged and the determining factor there is what's the competition and how much of an emergency do I have on my hands. But even then, how much are some guys willing to take advantage of a situation?

Just a consumer opinion,

CWS

[HVAC HAWK]

cws
i see your into ham radio I'm not into it to a lot but had my license for 12yrs N3WGV.

I'm glad you responded to this as a customer :)

i just wonder if ECS ever needs to hire a trade,s men to come into his house to fix some thing that he knows nothing about and will trust them to give him an honest price ?

i wonder if he ever walked away from a job and thought to himself boy they have no idea what is a good price is ,i need more like this and i will be able to retire early.

but i know that in my area you can only screw so many costumers before your traveling further away to get work and not as a lot of repeat business

[ToUtahNow]

Many years ago I met one of the original flat-rate plumbers at a National PHCC Convention in San Francisco. He came right out and told me his techs give coupons out to all of their customers after the bill is paid and if the customer is dumb enough to call them again they will gouge them again.

Mark

[plumber]

Webster's dictionary defines libel, among other things as "a: a written or oral defamatory statement or representation that conveys and unjustly unfavorable impression. b: a statement or representation published without just cause and tending to expose another to public contempt."

What this means is, Plumber, you are the only criminal here, and if I had a lawyer and knew who you were, you can be certain that you would be hearing from him on Monday morning. How dare you accuse me of robbing little old ladies! You don't know me. You don't know anything about me, except that I use a pricing system that you don't like. How is it that you have so much time to go around "investigating" everybody else's business anyway, or did you even bother to investigate? Are their crooks who use flat rate? Absolutely! Are there crooks that charge $65.00 an hour? Absolutely! I've never told someone they needed something that they didn't, and when it's marginal I tell them so, and when it's perfectly fine I tell them so. If I tell someone beforehand that my price to install their water heater is $950.00 and they say go ahead and when I get done I hand them a bill for $950.00, tell me how I've stolen from them. You can't because I haven't but you are perfectly willing to condemn me simply because I charge more than you THINK I should. As for the expansion tank, yes it's $200.00 more and it absolutely should be and here's why: 1. I paid $50 for that tank and the associated copper fittings necessary to install it. It rode around on my truck, taking up space and burning gas for some period of time not making any return on my investment until someone requested I install it. It rode on my truck so that I would have it when they needed it and not have to charge them 30min or an hour drive time to go get it, but they absolutely do and should pay "rent" for my truck space. 2. It's not part of the water heater! Maybe you think I should do it for free "since I'm already there". It's a seperate charge! 3. You value your time at $65.00 an hour and I value mine at $150.00 (just for your education, every flat rate system is based ultimately on t&m, how could you possibly know what your flat rate should be unless you first know what your costs and labor will be). I can't help it that you think so little of your skills, or perhaps you don't have many, I don't know, but as for me, I am a state certified master plumber and I got that way from ojt not somebody's 60 day school! The knowledge and skill I possess came to me through considerable blood, sweat, and years. My family made sacrifices while I learned my trade. I AM NOT GIVING IT AWAY TO ANYBODY, unless I choose to. If they knew how to do it themselves they would have, unless they just didn't feel like it. In either case if they call me, the professional, THEY HAVE TO PAY and I don't need any more reason than that to charge them $200.00 or $2000.00 if I think I should. If you need a heart surgeon (or a brain surgeon) you pay the man or your insurance does, either way he gets paid or he doesn't operate and you die. The surgeon doesn't owe you anything except that if you ask him to operate and promise to pay him then he owes you the very finest operation his knowledge and skill will allow. Now I'm no surgeon but no one is entitled to my plumbing services! If they want it, I can provide it. Now as a matter of personal practice, when I'm doing repair work, if there are multiple repairs I will usually, depending on what it is, give discounts on all but the most expensive repair (I am not a slave to the flat rate price guide) but I don't do this for replacement or new installations and I'm not obligated to do it at all. Plumber, the next time you go into your favorite fast food place, after you eat your $2 cheese burger, I want you to go back to the counter and ask for another for $1 and when they tell you no I want you to stand there and fume and foam and tell them what theives they are!

The next time you want to paint an entire group of people with the same wicked brush, you ought to think about it twice. I am not a thief and I don't use a lot of high pressure sales tactics and I don't give my clients half truths or misleading advice and you, Mr. Plumber owe me a very contrite and very public apology!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
ECS
I see you are refuse to answer the questions posed to you by reasonable people here on the board who were kind enough to reply to your post. If you add a 200 dollar charge to install an expansion tank on a 950 dollar water heater while you were standing right there you are indeed a dishonest fellow at best. These posts are monitored more frequently now and it will preclude me from writing what needs to be written here regarding your business practices and your "price system". Everythings a system now isn't it? Even a stapler is now called a "paper joining system", sheesh.

I am glad you have demonstrated the ability to use a dictonary here are a few more for you:
Shyster:A person who is unscrupulous in the practice of a profession.
Theft: the act of stealing something
Overcharge: to charge to high a price, an excessive charge


These are there are two hundred more that apply here. If you will charge two hundred dollars to install a 50 dollar expansion tank ( you need to find a better supplier) Then you will probably charge 70 or 100 dollars to chnage a 2 dollar flapper and a 10 dollar ballcock when you are standing right there for something else. There is another word from the dictionary that describes this it is: nausea; a feeling of sickness with a desire to vomit, or, strong disgust.

Here is a word that all of your teachers in school forgot to tell you about, please read this word carefully and look it up again. You need to know this word. Your vocabulary word for this week is; ETHICS: a system of ethics, dealing with ethics, relating to morality of behavior, moral philosophy/moral behavior.

Please research this word and you may experience an epiphany.

T&M plus travel time is the fairest and most equitable way to price for services rendered. Your flat rate system is a rip off of the customer. You are in business to earn money by providing a service with tangible value. That does not entitle you to the bank accounts of your customers. If you want to sue me for anything I have said written e mail me and i will happily provide you with the contact infornmation you need. there is nothing I have written here to be ashamed of.

Another question, would you charge your very own mother the same way you charge your customers? Would you want a flat rate ripoff outfit to come in and charge your grandmother the same way you charge others?

One last tidbit, if your training cost you a considerable amount of blood then you have not learned to do your job correctly. You are not the only plumber in the country who had to learn his trade and our trade is demanding and hard but its not rocket science and you are not a rocket scientist.

[plumber]

Josh,

Please allow this thread to continue. This is an extremely important issue to the plumbing trade. If left unchecked flat rate pricing could lead to the destruction of the trade as we know it and these differences need to be aired out. It might be contentious and probably will be but it could be good for your hit count.

[PLUMBER RICK]

plumber, i was hoping for at least a full bag of popcorn. you were a little too soft on ecs. my wife was glued to the screen. "it was only a pg-13. hoping for at least a r rating".

i can't see ecs responding to our few simple questions. he has something to hide. what i see here locally is the merging of these flat rate shops. this way when the uninformed look up a plumber in the yellow pages, they get basically the same shop as they swore they would never use again.

best word of advice to all homeowners. don't use the yellow pages for any referral. always ask your friends, family and long time neighbors for a referral. it's worked for me for 25+ years. not to mention i've never been sued, never sued anyone for non-payment. and have only received a couple of rubber checks. these were made good sooner than later. lets hear what ecs says about that:eek:

rick.

ps. where is dog when you need him:D

[plumber]

Rick.

There are several other things to write. ECS has a lot to answer for, he is ripping off his customers and seems to be quite proud of it. He arrogantly rambles onto the site and acts like everyone should just kiss his pajama bottoms. Well I know you don't take any guff from anyone and neither do any of the other plumbers here. His hamburger argument was one of the most ridiculous rationalizations of flat rate plumbing I have yet to read. Had to leave that one alone for awhile cause I didn't want the moderator to close the thread.. I think he is probably a one man shop who paid too much money for a franchise name and flat rate book, so in order to look at himself in the mirror perhaps he must defend his position regardless how silly he becomes. But it still doesnt make his rates fair and honest. And adding 200 dollars to a 950 dollar water tank charge for an expansion tank is highway robbery. 1150 for a water heater? Its that kind of malicious pricing that gives the entire industry a bad name.

Some day when ECS is older and more feeble I sincerly hope some soda jockey charges him 15 bucks for a can of coke and tells him, Well I carried it in the trunk of my car for two years so you have to pay me for storing it for you. LOL it kills me.

[ECS]

I just finished repairing a leak in a 1/2" galvanized water line that was less than 1' deep and had already been mostly uncovered by the homeowner before I got there. I told the man, whom I believe to be in his 80's, beforehand that the repair would cost $199.00 to which he agreed without hesitation. This was a retired WWII vet living in a small ranch style house that he had built after the war. When I priced the job I did not know precisely where the leak was located or even where the line was exactly but because I believed it was very close I quoted $199.00 thinking I could surely be done in under 1.5 hours. From the time I pulled into his driveway to the time I left his driveway was exactly 1 hour to the minute. When I saw that the repair would not take quite as long as I anticipated I did not adjust his price. I had given the man a price beforehand which he approved before the work began. I know for a fact that this man did not feel as if he was being ripped off since this is not the first time I have done work for him. Nor would he have been refered to me by his son, a local attorney, had I not made a favorable impression on him when I did work at his house on numerous occasions. Nor would he have actually paid me $200 instead of $199 had he felt he was being overcharged. Now I know that he did this simply for his own convenience in his check book register but I also know that he would not have done it had he had any notion that he was being "stolen from". By the way, when you call me a thief, you are expressing your ill formed and ignorant OPINION based on how you THINK I ought to run my company. You are commiting libel which is unjustly injurious to me and although you are correct when you (you being all of you who are taking shots at me) point out that libel is not an offense to be pursued in criminal court it is certainly one to be pursued in a civil court and more importantly it is a violation of the Moral Law which you so sanctimoniously set yourselves up as the protectors of. On the contrary the man was very appreciative of the fact that my company was able to respond to his need so quickly. He also was appreciative of the courtesy and respect that I showed him, it had value to him. I showed him this courtesy and respect because I am a professional and because he deserved it as do all of my customers. I did not atempt to sell this man a new water service even though in all probability he will need it before too much longer. Instead I advised him that he should moniter it closely because the water piping was galvinized and was buried and will only get worse with time. How many of you would have sold him a new water service at $75 per hour? Maybe none of you would, I don't know, but don't delude yourselves into thinking that a man is a thief because he uses flat rate and not if he uses t&m! If you are a thief then you are a thief, it matters not what pricing system you use. Conversely if you are not a thief then you are not a thief, it matters not what pricing system you use! How many of you t&mers talk on your cell phones while working? If the call is unrelated to the work you are doing do you subtract that time from their bill? If you don't, then according to your own system, you are charging them for something they are not receiving. I am a one man shop and I take my calls when they come in or else risk losing them. Under my system it doesn't matter if I stand there for an hour talking on the phone because my price has already been set. It makes no difference to the price if I finish in 30 minutes or 3 days! But you, if you so much as pick up your phone to see who's calling without even answering, you are obligated by that same Moral Law that you claim to love, to subtract every second that you spend not directly and specifically in the service of that client, from their bill! Are you hypocrites!? Are you liars!? How many "smoke breaks" are you charging them for? I know that you do not live up to the standard to which you would like to hold me. I know this because I know that there has only been one man who ever upheld this Moral Law perfectly and it's not you and it certainly isn't me and I'm perfectly content to let Him judge between us. Flat rate is an easy target for you and that's largely because there is so much abuse going on in association with various flat rate systems but what you've done to me on this forum is wrong and you ought to be ashamed of yourselves (but notice that I haven't run anywhere) and although I'm not holding my breath I ought to be receiving very public apologies from everyone of you who has attacked me. Flat rate does not automatically mean thief. What you really don't like is that I believe my time is worth $150 per hour, (and why shouldn't I, since when do you have the right to tell me or anyone else what their time is worth) and you are still stuck believing yours is only worth $75. Well, if that's what you think, then that's what it is. My company's time is worth an average of $150 per hour whereas yours is worth exactly $75 per hour no more no less. I must be doing some things you are not doing to justify the difference to the customer and I can't be stealing from them or none of them would ever call me again, which just isn't the case. I know I probably didn't answer all of your questions (more like interrogations) but I don't seem to have as much time as some of you do to sit in front of the computer. But see if this covers what you want to know.

I am a one man plumbing shop in central Alabama
I started in plumbing in Jan. 1999 (no I haven't been at it for 25 years)
My first 3 1/2 years was nothing but residential new construction - this is where I learned to understand, design, and build plumbing systems without engineered drawings
From there I went to commercial new construction - I didn't spend long there but stayed on one fair sized project from almost the start all the way through to the end. During that time I also worked on a number of smaller commercial refits including some very old buildings.
From there I went back to residential new construction and started doing service work as well. I also began, with my employers knowledge and approval, to seek out side work. Legally formed my business in Feb. '03 and went full time in Jan '04.
Now I am nearly exclusively residential service with some remodeling as well.

If that doesn't cover what you want to know then too bad, I wasn't obligated to tell you anything about me!

"The measure of choosing well is whether a man likes and finds good in what he has chosen." Charles Lamb

My clients have chosen well.

[toolaholic]

Rick, whom we all know,has great experiance, opened his information to
you in a trusting manner. i believe His questions were fair. why are you afraid to answer them? what are you ashamed of? SEE YA

[Josh]

Some good discussion here guys but its just turned into argument now. Time to move on.

Thanks,

Josh