Jobsite Injuries

[ToUtahNow]

On another thread Rick mentioned he suffered a burn today while soldering. After seeing the photo of his fingers I have to tell you it is sure easy to under estimate the dangers we have on the jobsite. We work with extreme pressures, temperatures, heights, depths and many other dangers. I thought I would share my most recent accident which has side lined me for the last 16-months and counting.

My daughter bought a new to her home which needed a repipe amongst other things. My daughter and her husband are young and the only way for them to purchase a nice two story home in Santa Clarita is to do it with a lot of sweat equity.

Once they bought the home they found out the previous owner had added a second layer of drywall on the ceiling to hide all of the water stains from leaking pipes. The entire first floor ceiling came out and I went by to layout where he needed to drill for the new pipes.

After the holes were drilled and materials delivered I stopped by one night to check it out. I showed him what additional work he needed to do and I instructed him to start setting the pipes into the joist space. While there I happened to notice my son-in-law had a brand new flimsy as heck fiberglass A-Frame ladder he had just bought from Home Depot.

I am big into ladder safety and have always used the 300 pound rated Little Giant ladders. Many a times I’ve leaned off the side of a Little Giant to saw cut a wall A/C though stucco with a 15-amp Milwaukee saw and not worried about any ladder flex. As such I told my son-in-law to throw away his new ladder and go get a couple of my Little Giant ladders to work with. I explained to him how easy it would be to get hurt on a ladder which could flex.

Moving a month ahead I went back to check on the job and my son-in-law had not gotten much done and what he had done was off a little. I decided I would help him out a little by relocating some of the pipes he had started with. The pipes were not soldered but were held in place with Acusto-Plumb isolators. I looked around and the only ladder at the hose was his Home Depot ladder.

I climbed a few steps up on the ladder and gave a tug on the pipe. As the pipe was still tightly held by the isolator it would not come out. I gave a bigger tug and the pipe broke loose just as I heard the ladder legs shift. As I was still holding the pipe my legs swung into the ladder on my way to the ground.

As I lay on the ground I assessed what I thought was wrong with me. It appeared I may have popped my knee out of joint so I spent the next hour trying to get off the ground so my daughter could drive me to the hospital. After an hour I gave up and let her call the ambulance.

As it turned out I broke my tibia in two places, my fibula in one, crushed my knee plateau, shattered my shoulder and broke my clavicle all on the right side. The first few surgeons told me there was not enough to fix. Finally my friend who happened to be an Orthopedic Surgeon with privileges at the hospital heard about it and came by. He told me he could fix it but I would need a bunch of surgeries over the next 15-years.

The initial surgery went better than anyone could have hoped. I ended up with two metal plates and a half-a-dozen 3” screws holding my leg together. I spent 6-months in a wheel chair, two months on crutches and another month with a cane to end up with a leg which was twisted and bent. Now after 5-months of dragging a dead leg behind me I finally had my knee replaced and leg straightened out last week. My buddy the surgeon says he thinks this time all will be great. I’m dragging my butt around with a walker but I’ve been told in 16-weeks I should be at 100%.

The point of my story is the accident was such a simple mistake on a ladder which I had already warned another about how dangerous it could be. The older we get the harder it is for our bodies to heal. If I was still working in the field, this would have been a career ending accident. I am fortunate I have other things I can do work wise but it has ended almost all of my other activities.

Mark

[ 10-21-2005, 02:27 AM: Message edited by: ToUtahNow ]

[imported_wbrooks]

WOW, thanks for sharing that, glad to hear you are on your way to a full recovery. Reminds me of an accident my uncle had. He has had many jobs and is well aware of safe climbing practices but when at home we all tend to be a bit less careful. He needed to change the exterior garage light and instead of getting the ladder he just grabbed the chair that was 3 feet closer. Well the chair wobbled and he jumped off, since it was summer and at home no shoes either, smashed his heel bone and was on crutches for months.
When I bought my first home in 92 one of my first purchases was a Type 1A JAWS ladder (stores folded at 6' and will make a 10' step or 22' straight ladder), many years later I added a yellow fiberglass featherlite (1A). I can't count the number of times I have heard 'why would you waste so much money on a ladder' to which I reply 'next trip up to the roof try my ladder' several of my friends now own 1A's. I can't stand those cheap ladders and if I know I am going some where that requires climbing my ladder goes with me.

[Theron]

Safety has got to be the most important factor we consider when doing a job. Before last week i did not own a big ladder, just a four foot for inside residential repairs and such. Fiberglass 1A rating Husky brand from HD. It's been a great ladder. I needed a 12' a frame ladder for a job, so i figured i'd go rent one. if one wasn't available to rent, i was just going to buy one. I went to the local HD and looked at the rentals. I was SHOCKED. Two light guage light duty aluminum that had 175 lb rating. I weigh 200! So that wasn't going to work. I picked up a 12' Husky 1A fiberglass and its great. It was twice as much as an aluminum one, but i don't feel like getting killed or mangled because i was too cheap to buy a good ladder. Other than the occasional dripping solder on my arm, I have been fortunate enough to not incurr any jobsite injuries.

[imported_PLUMBER RICK]

well i guess mark wins for battle wounds. interesting how things happen at home, while a jobsite is typically more dangerous.

12 years ago i was boring a 5'' hole underground to go 25' from my house to garage. i didn't want to scar my pool deck. using a hole hog with a water atachment and butterfly bit assy. i started with a 2'' pilot hole. after making it to the garage i swapped bits to the 5'' and started to ream out the hole. as the bit was spinning in low gear i pushed it too far towards the garage and hit the concrete footing. the 3' handle on the drill, (3/4'' steel pipe) with no rubber grip. came around in slow motion right into the spot where my nose meets my eye. as i put my hand up to my head, it turned red. my buddie had just left a minute earlier. i ran out front to catch him to drive me to the hospital.

so the moral of this story is trying to save a scar on my concrete, i created a scar om my face.

amazing how many dangers we are exposed to at the jobsite, only to get injured on a home project.

rick.

ps. the photo of my 2 fingers that mark mentioned at the start of this post look worse than they feel. hopefully a little lesson to learn. i had just removed my gloves since they got roofing tar on them. too lazy to go down 7 floors to get clean gloves, i continued to solder the 2'' fittings on a storage tank. reaching behind the tank while soldering i turned the torch towards my fingers as i worked. needless to say they blistered as fast as i could move. i finished the project and then came home and had to explain to my crying wife why she was the last to learn of it.

wear your safety gear. gloves and glasses. explaining to the wife is worse than the burn, i think?

rick.

[plumbdog10]

I have always considered my most important job as a foreman to be saftey. I know, there are those on this forum who have put me down for not being a contractor, but I like my job. I like to think that I have made the lives of working guys better by being a saftey *****. I have pushed and pushed for that, even thrown guys off my job because of it, but when all is said, they are healthier for it.

There is no project worth the health and saftey of your crew. I also have seen injuries, including death, on jobsites. I have a much better understanding of what causes those injuries than California OSHA. Which is why I have my own saftey program. Yea, I do the OSHA thing for legal reasons, but I do my own thing for saftey.

If you guys whan to compare scares, so be it. I find the topic horrific, because I have seen death and serious injuries beyond surgery.

This topic should be about PREVENTING INJURIES, not a replay of the famous seen in "Jaws".

[plumber]

Saftey is indeed important. I have more than a few injuries I could write about, most were at least partly my fault due to complacency. A few highly detailed examples of injuries might highlight to some of the younger readers why safety is not just for wussies.

Rick and Utah have shown us that injurys are easily obtained by split second decisions that we think don't matter "just this once". Lets use the descriptions of their injuries to showcase the need for safety.

My pet peeves for saftey problems are the proper or improper trenching and shoring methods and confined space entry methods used by almost every contractor in the country. Many of the guys who scream safety the loudest often toss it straight out the window when deadlines begin to loom near.

Their excuses usually begin with, "Oh you'll only be down there for three minutes". Or "that ground looks stable to me and I've been doing this for years". Hundreds of people are killed every year in this country due to excavation collapse and many more seriously injured. Often these accidents occur near the completion of the project at hand.

And why anyone would allow themselves to be in a confined space for hours at a time while using harsh solvents without adequate ventilation is truly a mystery. If the migraine headaches and dizzyness doesn't tell you something then something is really wrong.

Whether you have been on the job for one day or for thirty years never let anyone make you go into a deep trench that is not adequately shored by a trained individual unless the sides have been tapered back and the spoils moved at least 2 feet from the side of the ditch or a portable trench box is in place. Demand an exit ladder and refuse entry if you are denied one. Be sure there is a spotter to watch the trench sides for signs of immenent collapse. That spotter is not there to be a runner, if he is back at the truck retrieving a tool he can't see the split that is rapidly developing on your blind side.

And when it comes to entering a space that has been sealed for any period of time, only a fool or an untrained novice would enter without first having the atmosphere in the space to be entered properly "sniffed" with equipment that is certified as "working properly".

Like dog I have witnessed death and grievious injuries on jobsites. It is impossible to adequately explain what this does to someone.

To you younger guys, You are only a wussie if you are not man enough to stand up for your own safety. If you enjoy music or the laughter of children use your earplugs now while the noise still bothers you. When you get used to the noise thats because you are now losing your hearing and it doesnt come back.

[toolaholic]

i can,t believe i'm reading this today! it,s been 30 years since i rode a ladder to the ground. used the customers cheapo instead of going to my van. i hung from the gutter and dropped 6 ft to the ground. very lucky, no damage.

here,s another hazard SUN after 7 weeks skin cancer is back aggresively 20 more stitches in same place ,same arm. i'm in good hands. one word to you young guys SUN BLOCK AND HATS. BE WELL TOOL

[plumber]

Tool,

Sorry to read of your ailment. Best wishes.

Another example of experience. Hopefully at least one young pup will take some of this to heed.

[ToUtahNow]

Tool,

I'm sorry to hear about your skin cancer but thank you for bringing it up. Sun Block was something I never would have thought of using in the day. Now my buddy who is a grower/broker is going through re-occurring (after 15-years) skin cancer. The issues which takes so many years to manifest are so often ignored.

Mark

[ 10-22-2005, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: ToUtahNow ]

[toolaholic]

thank you both. have no idea if they got it all,time will tell. no regrets ,it,s been one hell of a good ride!

[ToUtahNow]

I was reading in this months PM Magazine about a confined space accident aboard a Royal Carribean ship. It seems three crew men were replacing some waste lines on the sewage system of the ship.

Apparently the crew man spilled around 5-gallons of sewage and an unknown amount of sewer gas. The Fire Department estimated the three crewman expired within the first 30-seconds of the spill. All three crew members were foreign nationals and employees of the cruise line.

Mark

[Polar Sparky 1224]

Were i work they are so saftey oreinted we have a saftey walk every monday and a saftey meeting later durring lunch. Yet when the big wigs get there i don't see them wear hard hats or saftey vests. But then I quess a person can be so important they don't need a hard hat or saftey vest? We can't listen to music or have cellphones, but they can?

One day i was driving a fork lift to pick up some conduit, I saw a groupe of five "important" people talking in a circle one broke of from the group and was talking on his CELLPHONE! This forklift i was driving was comparable in size to a crew-cab truck yet they can't hear or see me coming. so I stop and honk 3 times, on the third honk someone noticed me and got the others to move. After my path was clear i drove through, while passing i saw one of them looking at me as he tugged on his vest as if to imply i had not seen them.

There is a saftey commisionor that has the same phisosify as "Tim Taylor/Allen" in home improvment. he is why we can't have cellphones. Lesson learned, "IF YOU TALK AN A CELLPHONE DO SO AWAY FROM A BUSY AREA OR HAZZARDOUS LOCATION" I still carry mine because only two people call me, my Wife and my boss! And NO THEY ARE NOT THE SAME PERSON!

[ 10-25-2005, 01:18 AM: Message edited by: Polar Sparky 1224 ]

[plumb crazy purple]

Thanks for posting these safety reminders. It's strange how I take more precautions while working a job than when I'm at home. I used a wheel barrow that was right next to me to gain the extra couple of feet I needed. The ladder was at the back of the house. I'll call that pure stupidity on my part rather than laziness.

I have to start wearing my safety glasses and dust mask religiously again. I was pretty good at doing that for a long while. Other guys on the job sites would make their comments and stuff. It didn't bother me one bit. I was especially glad I was wearing my glasses when a framer split a chunk of 2x4 and it hit me square between the glasses. Didn't hurt at all, just scared the crap out of me.

[plumbdog10]

You can fill a book with saftey rules but these are the most important in my book, because I've seen their disregard result in the most injuries:

1) Use proper equipment for elevated working. A 2" x 4" strung between a fire block and a ladder is not proper scaffoling. Wheel barrows and buckets are not ladders.

If you need to get the right equipment to the jobsite, so be it. Don't let the schedule drive the saftey program.

2) Do not remove the saftey features from power tools. They were installed for a reason. If you can't use the tool to perform the task without removing the guard, you have the wrong piece of equipment.

3) Wear saftey glasses when using power tools.

4) Be aware of your surroundings. Don't be tunnel visioned to your work, remember there are other trades working right along side of you. Some of these trades may not be concerned with your saftey.

5) When working overhead make sure the area below is clear of other workers. Tape the area off if necessary.

6) Use proper shoring.

8) Wear gloves when working with or around sharp or hot objects (this is the Plumber Rick Rule).

9)Clean up oil and liquid spills from the work area floor.

10) DO NOT ALLOW SCHEDULES TO COMPRIMISE SAFTEY. If you work for a "Just Get It Done" type of company quit, report them to OSHA, and move on.

I personally have seen all of the above result in serious injury.

the dog :cool:

[ToUtahNow]

dog,

If all foremen worked like you we would not need OSHA.

Mark

[AZPlumber]

I have worked for numerous plumbing contractors over the years and for myself. I can tell you without compunction very few, if any at all, ever follow or make or even SUGGEST their employees follow most of Plumbdog's excellent advice. Simply because they are too much in a hurry to get jobs done to care, and governemnt oversight like OSHA is non-existent. Yes, non-existent. I believe OSHA exists primarily only for their own job justification and longevity, because I don't ever see them anywhere and I really do wonder exactly what it is they even do anymore.

AS for wearing safety goggles/glasses, noone ever does it. I have seen countless rough-in crews drilling into joists all day long with none, or drilling into metal to hang uni-strut for example with none, ever. I have seen plumbers many times (yes, myself included stupidly) sweat or thread pipe overhead, say, in a ceiling or upper wall, with NO goggles. How many times I myself even almost got a nice big glob of solder drip off the joint and right into my eyeball I can't recall, but the last time it happened I vowed to never do it again without goggles on. I have hardly ever seen them use "proper" scaffolding, etc as well, usually it's only a ladder and a cheap one at that. One thing I am vehemently against is the continued use of "stilts", such as many drywallers use. They were outlawed in California for a time but I believe they've been legalized again. I view them as just about absolutely the single most dangerous workplace practise there is. All somebody has to do is walk into the jobsite unaware and bump into one of these guys, or have a cluttered floor, or water/ice on it, on and on. I have seen so many guys fall off these things it's not funny. They are just flat out hazardous not only to the person wearing and using them but to anybody even around them. But many contractors refuse to do away with them because they view them as necessary to getting the job done. Hurry hurry. I have had some try and make me wear them myself and I flat out refuse and tell bosses to go and get on them themselves and take a chance they will break an arm or crack their heads, and that's after I tell them to go screw themselves. I hardly ever see anybody use shoring except genuine excavation companies. Gloves are'nt used much either, especially when soldering or even brazing, and alot of companies won't supply them, the employees have to buy them on their own, and you can imagine how many actually do. I believe ALL plumbing contractors who employ people to work for them should supply gloves, hard hats and safety glasses, and PRESCRIPTION safety glasses to boot if needed, at COMPANY EXPENSE. It is only in the best interest of the company and everyone involved to supply these, and any company who claims they can't or won't because of expense should'nt be in business in the first place.

The fact of the matter is, it is a rare animal in this industry when a company actually places the safety of it's employees over production. It's just the way it is, and it really boils down to the individual worker to put her/his foot down and demand and insist these guidelines be followed and their employers respect them. And just like the "plumber Rick rule" about gloves, I have one as well....and that is, there is NO job and NO company and NO client so important and so much in a hurry that your own personal safety should be set aside, for even an instant, EVER.

[michael stephen]

safety safety safety safety safety!! ;)

[plumber]

AZPlumber,

Yes there are alot of places, particularly tract home construction, where saftey is almost non existant and its a SHAME. But you might be surprised to find out that there are many areas in the construction industry where unsafe work habits will result in termination. And in many industrial complexes and particularly in most refineries, unsafe practices can get you escorted off of the site by an armed guard.

If your contractor will not supply saftey equipment then I strongly advise you to spend a small amount for your own.

It only takes 2 seconds to slip on saftey glasses and 5 seconds to put in ear plugs. Carry a 15 dollar box fan to set over a crawl space entrance to allow fresh air in and to remove solvent fumes. You can buy saftey gloves in bulk and they are quite cheap that way. If your boss won't demand it its up to you to protect yourself.

If you lose an eye no one is going to come up and say, gee thanks for sacrificing so much and losing half of your sight so I could make up for failing to bid my work correctly, here take half my company. And once your hearing starts failing you can't ask your baby daughter or grandaughter to repeat the first word she ever said. Once these things are gone, they are gone.

[ 11-15-2005, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: plumber ]

[imported_Bob D.]

The code (US Law) that drives OSHA can be found here;

http://www.washingtonwatchdog.org/documents/usc/ttl29/ch15/index.html

United State Code
TITLE 29 - LABOR
CHAPTER 15 - OCCUPATIONAL SAFETY AND HEALTH
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

U.S. Code as of: 01/26/1998
Sec. 654. Duties of employers and employees

(a) Each employer -
(1) shall furnish to each of his employees employment and a
place of employment which are free from recognized hazards that
are causing or are likely to cause death or serious physical harm
to his employees;
(2) shall comply with occupational safety and health standards
promulgated under this chapter.
(b) Each employee shall comply with occupational safety and
health standards and all rules, regulations, and orders issued
pursuant to this chapter which are applicable to his own actions
and conduct.
Source
(Pub. L. 91-596, Sec. 5, Dec. 29, 1970, 84 Stat. 1593.)


Any time you want to look up something from 29CFR Part 1926, which is the section that covers construction, here's the link it on OSHA's web site;

http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owastand.display_standard_group?p_toc_level=1&p_part_number=1926


And so there is no mistake, SHALL means YOU WILL, not maybe but DEFINATELY. That means both the employer and the employee. If they have to provide the equipment then YOU must use it in the manner intended. If you do not use PPE that was provided any claim you might make or fine OSHA could levy might be invalidated, but even worse than that is you could die or cause someone else's death or them to suffer an injury.


As far as employers suppling safety training and PPE, here's what the Regs say;

1926.95(a)

"Application." Protective equipment, including personal protective equipment for eyes, face, head, and extremities, protective clothing, respiratory devices, and protective shields and barriers, shall be provided, used, and maintained in a sanitary and reliable condition wherever it is necessary by reason of hazards of processes or environment, chemical hazards, radiological hazards, or mechanical irritants encountered in a manner capable of causing injury or impairment in the function of any part of the body through absorption, inhalation or physical contact.

1926.21(b)(2)

The employer shall instruct each employee in the recognition and avoidance of unsafe conditions and the regulations applicable to his work environment to control or eliminate any hazards or other exposure to illness or injury.

1926.21(b)(3)

Employees required to handle or use poisons, caustics, and other harmful substances shall be instructed regarding the safe handling and use, and be made aware of the potential hazards, personal hygiene, and personal protective measures required.

1926.21(b)(6)
1926.21(b)(6)(i)

All employees required to enter into confined or enclosed spaces shall be instructed as to the nature of the hazards involved, the necessary precautions to be taken, and in the use of protective and emergency equipment required. The employer shall comply with any specific regulations that apply to work in dangerous or potentially dangerous areas.

1926.21(b)(6)(ii)

For purposes of paragraph (b)(6)(i) of this section, "confined or enclosed space" means any space having a limited means of egress, which is subject to the accumulation of toxic or flammable contaminants or has an oxygen deficient atmosphere. Confined or enclosed spaces include, but are not limited to, storage tanks, process vessels, bins, boilers, ventilation or exhaust ducts, sewers, underground utility vaults, tunnels, pipelines, and open top spaces more than 4 feet in depth such as pits, tubs, vaults, and vessels.

[ 11-15-2005, 09:22 PM: Message edited by: Bob D. ]

[AZPlumber]

Bob, AWESOME post, and great information and links, thanks!

Plumber, I work for myself now, and I'm just a one man operation. But if I ever did decide to take on another guy, I would provide him as an employee everything safety-wise he would need. If he wanted gloves he'd get them. If he wanted steel toe boots I'd at least go half on the price if not just buy them outright. If he needed prescription safety glasses I would send him to the optometrist with a check.

Of course an employee who works for a outfit should buy his own and use them if the company won't. But that's what I'm saying, I think every company should supply these things free of charge to their workers, within reason, constant abuse, loss or theft notwithstanding. I just think it's the right thing to do unless you're paying your guys 50$ an hour or they're contract workers responsible for their own equipment.

Far as places that won't tolerate non-compliance with safety, I just had to laugh at a few posts made by another person in a different thread here about how stuff happens and you sometimes gotta do what you gotta do. I worked here in Alaska for instance on the oil pipeline terminal. If you're caught just once violating ANY of their safety rules, you're banned for a year, if not outright blackballed. They make you sit for 3 hours of safety videos and take a comprehension test before they even issue you a badge and let you step foot on the terminal. They have safety personnel whose only job it is is to drive around the terminal and observe different contractors working. Once, when I was inside an empty crude storage tank for refurbishment, we were welding some steel plate to the floor when a safety guy came in and shut us down and made us get out. The reason? He took an exhaust test of our welding generator and determined it was emitting too much carbon dioxide. And it was OUTSIDE. You can't even be higher than 6 feet unless you are tied off, not even on a ladder! (lol this last one I thought was actually a little overboard along with some others but all in all not arguable) The oil companies give generous bonuses to contractors for good safety records, so it's drilled into everybody's head to be safe safe safe. Of course, this has the actual effect of working against worker safety at times, since I had witnessed several guys cut or bang themselves up pretty good but not report it for fear of ruining the record, which is another issue and post all on it's own, but all in all it's a very safe place to work despite the fact it's one of the most industrial and potentially dangerous places to be, and I applaud them for that.

[imported_Bob D.]

AZPlumber, you raise some good points and I have witnessed many of those too over the years. I wouldn't expect a small contractor to provide work boots (safety toes or otherwise), but if your company offers that it is great. One utility I have worked for many times gives teir employees a once a year $100 allowance for safety shoes, and the show mobiles even shows up once a week at the site. Granted this is a large facility with about 3000 employees and contractors on site on any given day, but its is nice. they do the same with RX safety glasses.

For contract employees such as myself, well we are left out of this, but that's OK. I deduct my PPE that I have purchased on my taxes which is allowed. Anything other than boots and RX eyewear is provided by my employer, and we are responsible for maintaining it in good working order and securing replacements when damaged or worn out.

Some of you might want to check out this link too:

http://www.cdc.gov/elcosh/index.html

or this one:

http://www.cpwr.com/

[carverelli]

you guys may think I'm a premadonna about safety. That's fine, whatever. I'm just telling you I represent probably 75% of the construction work force in my attitude about safety on the job. I'm here to tell you that nobody is more worried about me falling off a roof ledge or a ladder and plummeting to my death than I am. I don't like pain. and when I'm home healing, whose going to feed my kids. State Idustrial( Labor and Industries in Wa sate) doesn't replace 100% of my wage. While I may do things on occasion that aren't 100% safe, I feel comfortable doing it. I got talked to on my last job for using a 4" grinder w/o a guard. The thing is almost useless w/ a guard on it. Every trade on the job was using grinders w/o guards. The biggest user was the tin knockers cutting the square duct. Also got talked to about leaning a step ladder up against a wall. The point I'm trying to make is a lot of the little rules are broken every day. If all the houses built today were done following OSHA and WISHA rules to the letter, you couldn't afford to buy the one you're living in. The guy that drives around the site and makes sure your safe to the letter make a salary too, and we all pay for it. I have a name for them and all the other beauracrats. I call them non-producers. They don't really do anything or make anything or install anything. Someone has to pay their wages.
I don't think most accidents happen from one thing. I firmly believe it usually two or more broken rules that lead to an accident. The guy that kicks a no-hub fitting off a scissor lift won't hurt anyine if the guy below isn't working directly underneath him. I'm always mindful of what's going on around me. When I walk underneath a scoffolding I look up to see what's happening. If someone's up there unloading bricks off a forklift, I find another way to get where I'm going. I don't see why I have to where a hard hat on a plumbing groundwork when no one is working above me. When they start swinging bar joists above me or when ironworkers are in the area-no problem. Apprentices and newbies on a sie are a hazard because they haven't been in that environment long. Weekly safety meetings on a big job are paramount. Real safety concerns are brought up by trades and make everyone one the site aware of whats transpiring.
I was the foreman on a 4 story office building in 2000 . Before the stairwells were installed, there was q-deck on all 4 floors. the only way up to the top floors was a series of extension ladders and landings. At the top odf a floor i had to step through a cable fence. I didnt feel totally safe carrying tools and cords. My boss ended up renting an all terrain scissor lift to tram tools and material to the upper floors. Our lift became real popular with everyone untill the stairs went in.
One safety issue I never really thought of and it has really affected me the most is hearing protection. My wife has been telling me for several years that my hearing is not up to par. I'm not quite 40 and I can't hear high pitched noises too well. I would attribute most of the hearing loss to my screaming acetlyene turbotorch.
That dude is loud. I find myself having to really pay attention to someone when they are talking to me or I'll miss part of a sentence. I have started wearing ear plugs during extended soldering sessions.

[AZPlumber]

"you guys may think I'm a premadonna about safety."

No, a primadonna about safety would be anal about it. On the contrary, I just don't think you place that much importance on it. Which is fine. It's your a**, not mine.

"While I may do things on occasion that aren't 100% safe, I feel comfortable doing it."

Well if you are comfy doing it then go right ahead. Just don't do it around me. I really dislike people who are "comfy" doing dangerous things when I'm on the jobsite with them. It tends to make me walk off of them and ask the contractors if they approve of such practices.

"got talked to on my last job for using a 4" grinder w/o a guard. The thing is almost useless w/ a guard on it. Every trade on the job was using grinders w/o guards."

If I jump off the ledge of a 20' open sewer manhole, will you too?

"If all the houses built today were done following OSHA and WISHA rules to the letter, you couldn't afford to buy the one you're living in."

I disagree. Not working safely many times can get the job done quicker. And then on the job injuries sure are spendy too. So spendy in fact that worker's comp insurance is the single highest expense for many contractors in a variety of fields. And worker's comp claims reach into the billions every year. Medical costs are'nt going down that's for sure. Pretty spendy, would'nt you say? Jobs can be completed in timely manners and within reasonable budgets if good planning, equipment and supervision are used. And if it costs slightly more to buy my house or car because nobody got hurt in the process of producing it, then so be it, I prefer it that way.

"The guy that drives around the site and makes sure your safe to the letter make a salary too, and we all pay for it. I have a name for them and all the other beauracrats."

I would call the guy who shut down our generator that day a potential lifesaver. We were in a confined space, welding and torching and with the related fumes, and on top of it the generator was spewing bad exhaust and creeping into the interior of the tank from outside. Our detectors did'nt pick it up because they were only meant for benzene, Co2 and other gasses. But that's a small example. Many times those guys have literally been responsible for preventing major accidents and injuries. I would say their salary is well justified. And I never once had any ill feelings towards them when they would shut us down. It was for our own damn good. Does it increase the costs of products we may buy? Sure. But in your world, we should all revert back to Victorian times when things were cheap but life expectancy was atrocious, right?

"I don't think most accidents happen from one thing. "

Sure they can. Remember that grinder example of yours? What if that grinder wheel shattered and without the guard a nice little piece decided to lodge itself right in your face. That's just ONE thing, the fact you thought you were too cool to use a guard.

"The guy that kicks a no-hub fitting off a scissor lift won't hurt anyine if the guy below isn't working directly underneath him."

No. He'll just hurt the next guy who walks along and trips over it.

" I don't see why I have to where a hard hat on a plumbing groundwork when no one is working above me."

I suppose you've never heard of people walking into girters, beams, falling and hitting their heads, material and equipment being moved and possibly slammed upside your haed by someone not paying attention.....construction sites are veritable menageries of hazards, of all kinds, and protecting one's head from injury entails much more than things falling from above. In alot of situations though I will agree, hard hats are overkill, especially in the plumbing trades, but in many others including steelworkers, foundries, oil rigs, etc, they are needed and required for good reason.

The rest of your post I agree with.

I just can't agree with anybody who thinks it's ever acceptable to set aside safety for increased production or convenience. It makes you sloppy and careless after awhile. It gives you a TOO comfortable feeling. After too long, you start neglecting other safety issues too, and one day you find you are staring at a hand without a finger, or you notice you have a chunk of metal in your eyeball, or your arm has bone sticking out of it. That's if you're lucky.

If I can't do a job safely, it's not worth doing.

[Quescodeplumb]

Originally posted by carverelli:
you guys may think I'm a premadonna about safety. That's fine, whatever. I'm just telling you I represent probably 75% of the construction work force in my attitude about safety on the job. I'm here to tell you that nobody is more worried about me falling off a roof ledge or a ladder and plummeting to my death than I am. I don't like pain. and when I'm home healing, whose going to feed my kids. State Idustrial( Labor and Industries in Wa sate) doesn't replace 100% of my wage. While I may do things on occasion that aren't 100% safe, I feel comfortable doing it. I got talked to on my last job for using a 4" grinder w/o a guard. The thing is almost useless w/ a guard on it. Every trade on the job was using grinders w/o guards. The biggest user was the tin knockers cutting the square duct. Also got talked to about leaning a step ladder up against a wall. The point I'm trying to make is a lot of the little rules are broken every day. If all the houses built today were done following OSHA and WISHA rules to the letter, you couldn't afford to buy the one you're living in. The guy that drives around the site and makes sure your safe to the letter make a salary too, and we all pay for it. I have a name for them and all the other beauracrats. I call them non-producers. They don't really do anything or make anything or install anything. Someone has to pay their wages.
I don't think most accidents happen from one thing. I firmly believe it usually two or more broken rules that lead to an accident. The guy that kicks a no-hub fitting off a scissor lift won't hurt anyine if the guy below isn't working directly underneath him. I'm always mindful of what's going on around me. When I walk underneath a scoffolding I look up to see what's happening. If someone's up there unloading bricks off a forklift, I find another way to get where I'm going. I don't see why I have to where a hard hat on a plumbing groundwork when no one is working above me. When they start swinging bar joists above me or when ironworkers are in the area-no problem. Apprentices and newbies on a sie are a hazard because they haven't been in that environment long. Weekly safety meetings on a big job are paramount. Real safety concerns are brought up by trades and make everyone one the site aware of whats transpiring.
I was the foreman on a 4 story office building in 2000 . Before the stairwells were installed, there was q-deck on all 4 floors. the only way up to the top floors was a series of extension ladders and landings. At the top odf a floor i had to step through a cable fence. I didnt feel totally safe carrying tools and cords. My boss ended up renting an all terrain scissor lift to tram tools and material to the upper floors. Our lift became real popular with everyone untill the stairs went in.
One safety issue I never really thought of and it has really affected me the most is hearing protection. My wife has been telling me for several years that my hearing is not up to par. I'm not quite 40 and I can't hear high pitched noises too well. I would attribute most of the hearing loss to my screaming acetlyene turbotorch.
That dude is loud. I find myself having to really pay attention to someone when they are talking to me or I'll miss part of a sentence. I have started wearing ear plugs during extended soldering sessions. Well I've got to agree with you about the wife thing, but I like to call that selective hearing. As far as safety goes I have to disagree, I think everybody can work safe, if they want to. I've never fired a guy who called and said (after a weekly safety metting and learned something he didn't know before)"The ladder we have isn't tall enough", or "Should we ask the super why everone else don't have to wear saftey glasses?" These people are becoming aware in those meetings how to work safe and that's the point. Remember this, a lot of your older plumbers grew up without OSHA, and if they didn't work with what they had or without saftey gear THEY WENT HOME. Now people have the right to work safe, and if they won't work in unsafe conditions and the employer won't comply, they got a buisiness to worry about. Tell you what anybody calls me on one of my jobs and asks for saftey equiptment to properly do there job, they have it, and without the weekly saftey meeting they may have never knew. So when OSHA walks on the job, and everybody stops working or runs away, my guys keep on working. Oh and about the comment that a job can't be done safetly and still be affordable, that to me sounds like a personal issue, and employes who probably don't know enough to work safe cause you told them "the safety meeting is B.S." or perhaps you can't hear them since you missed the one on hearing protection.

[plumber]

carverelli,
A saftey premadonna is someone who wears his fall protection into the porta potty so he doesnt fall in. Although sometimes a resperator there is not a bad idea.

You really do not represent 75% of the construction industry workforce. Maybe in the immediate place where you live but not in the country.

We like and want a safe envirnoment to work in. When we have folks such as yourself who are willing to gamble with his life or the safety of others then it becomes harder for us as a whole to keep the saftey standards our ancestors fought for with their lives.

I do not want to return to the early 1900s where a mans life was not worth the cost of a simple pulley cover. I watched some of my uncles and great uncles die slowly and horribly from black lung disease because proper ventilation was considered to costly to the coal companies.

One of my best friends is spending his life in a wheelchair due to improper shoring practices and he was the lucky one. You will never convince me that jobsite saftey is an issue we cannot afford.

Even very safe worksites can have terrible injuries and death. So taking silly chances is just silly. I am sorry caverelli but I can not condone what you write here at all.

[carverelli]

I will have to admit my hardhat saved my bacon one day. I bent down underneath a metal stud that was hanging vertical from the deck above. I grabbed the pipe I needed and was standing up when the end of the sharp stud hit the top of my hat. I would have had several stiches to sew my scalp back together. Usually it just causes me to hit my hat on everything because it sets up several inches higher and I'm not used to being six feet tall.
I've only worked in two states. Southern Cal(Palmdale in the late 80's and Washington since 1989. The only time safety was an issue was on high profile jobs for the government using public money and most of the subs were union. Once I was filling a test stack on a groundwork from a bachhoe bucket. Was very comfortable -had a steady platform to stand on. The dirt directly around the stack was unstable so a ladder was out of the question. The sup didn't say a thing when I grabbed a ladder and was precariously perched trying to lean over w/ a 1 1/4 hose trying to fill the pipes. I felt much safer on the backhoe bucket but whatever - we got our inspection and moved on. My point on my previous post was there is the spirit of the law and the letter of the law. Between blatent disregard for your safety and everyone else and living, breathing safety laws to the letter has got to be a middle ground where you can be safe and still do your job. I mean tying off when your on an 8 foot ladder. Come on -you'll trip over your lanyard on the way up. The most hazardous thing about using an extension ladder is climbing the damn thing. What about taking you tools up the ladder. How do you hold the drill and the ladder rung?
I'll say it again, no one cares more about MY safety than me. My biggest downfall is I get so absorbed in my work sometimes I'll leave copper tube around my workspace. I know where the pipe is so I don't trip or step on top of it. The problem is when someone invades my workspace they may not know its there. I try to keep it somewhat clean but I'm not anal about it.

[Bob D.]

Our SeaBee Battalion Safety Chief had a favorite saying:

"You can walk on a wooden leg, you can chew with false teeth, but you can't see with a glass eye.... Wear Your Safety Glasses!"