Help! Panelbox

[cinnamon]

The electrical panelbox cover in the house I just bought is missing, how do I go about finding a replacement cover especially if there isn't any name stamped on it. I have all the inner dimensions and it's a UL Listed Class CTL enclosed panel board bt-482965. The people who lived here built a box around it so it isn't open for people to stick their hands in, but I'd like to get it fixed. How much would it cost roughly to have someone put in a new box and rewire it? It's 200 amp service already.

[PLUMBER RICK]

a picture would help.
check what brand of circut breakers are installed and then contact that manufactor. typically the panel is designedand approved for that brand only.
also how old is the house? is it original?

rick.

[CWSmith]

If the panel is currently 200-amp, then I would presume that it is fairly new (last 20 years anyway) and that a new cover might be available. As Plumber Rick pointed out, check the name on the circuit breakers and then contact that manufacturer to see what he can tell you.

I suggest you also look at any local electrical supply houses that you may have and give them a call and/or take a picture of the panel, along with the other information that you have, and pay them a visit. There's a good chance that they may be able to provide you more information of have something that can help you out.

From my limited experience, an electrician will probably charge you several hundred to change out the panel. If the 200 amp panel that you have was put in properly (correct weatherhead, incoming lines, code adherance, etc.) then its primarily the labor involved and of course the main power will have to be shutoff for at least a short period. If it comes to that (hopefully not, considering you already have current amperage standards for a residence), the question is whether or not you'd have enough length on the lines to place a panel next to the current one and transfer the lines over, breaker by breaker. That is usually NOT the case, which would then mean removal of the entire panel (power off for a day at least) and direct replacement with a new panel and then everything put back.

I do think that this would be rather unnecessary considering the amperage of your current panel. Hopefully a new cover will be available.

CWS

[TOD]

If you can't get a cover for it you could trim it out and cover it with a wood cabinet style door to make things look better.

[Polar Sparky 1224]

Go to an electrical supply house with a picture of your panel and see if a Siemens square d or GE cover will fit. I have seen those the Most often... I wouldn't do any wood covering because of the fire hazard. may even be able to get the cover at your local hardware store.

[PhilG.]

Go to an electrical supply house with a picture of your panel and see if a Siemens square d or GE cover will fit. I have seen those the Most often... I wouldn't do any wood covering because of the fire hazard.


Definitely you do not want a wood cover on the panel.
You need to imagine that the devices housed within the panel need their own fire-rated area to remain safe, and that would rule out wood or other combustible material as a cover.
As stated before, you'd be safest to install the actual cover designed for it.

[Bob D.]

Hopefully its not one of those junk White-Westinghouse panels. Do they even still make those?

[JimDon]

If you can't find the right cover for the box, why don't you take the dimensions and check metal fabrication shops. It wouldn't take much for a metal fab guy to take the dimensions, bend up some sheet steel and make you a box cover and it will be a heck of a lot cheaper than having a sparky do a complete changeover. Just a thought!
Hope this helps. Jim D

[Pipestone Kid]

Cinnamon: If you can't find a cover, take JimDon's advice. I had the same problem-even the manufacturer couldn't come up with the right cover- so I made one myself. It took me about an hour and a half, but I had to use crude methods for bending the edges etc. (No sheet metal equipment) It turned out so good that my neighbor (retired electrician) thought I had finally found one. A sheet metal shop should be able to snap one out in nothing flat. HTH
Jim

[Perry]

If you can't find the right cover for the box, why don't you take the dimensions and check metal fabrication shops. It wouldn't take much for a metal fab guy to take the dimensions, bend up some sheet steel and make you a box cover and it will be a heck of a lot cheaper than having a sparky do a complete changeover. Just a thought!
Hope this helps. Jim D

Be aware. If you have a cover fabricated it will not meet the UL listed standards of the Mfgr. If a fire results, for any reason, you are liable and your insurance coverage may not be in force. Ins. Co.'s today look for any good reason not to pay a claim. This would be a good one to put all liability on you! If you can't find an original cover, the entire panel needs to be replaced. Perry, Cincinnati, OH, Master Electrician.:)

[andcrs2]

Once you identify the panel's mfg/model no. you might try the surplus/used electrical equipment folks if the supply houses don't have a new cover.

Don't be surprized if the cover costs the same or more than a complete panel.
Something about 'spare parts'...

[swoosh81]

Perry would be 100% right on that.
But now I have a question for you Perry. I've had 2 electrical inspectors tell me that you cannot have neutrals and grounds in the same slot of the bar in the panel. When I questioned them on this they can't find it in the 2005 NEC book. I have looked all over in the book and cannot find it. any info. would be apreciated!! Bob Carlisle, Pa. M.E.

[MD MASTER SPARKY]

Wow I've Heard It All Now

Any One Heard Of Ul Listings

Proper Use And Identification Of Equipment??

Huge Liability Here

Go Ton Local Supply House And Purchase A Panel And Install The Cover On The Existing Panel
Chances Are That You Will Not Be Able To Find A Cover Alone

I Would Under No Circumstances Fabricate One

[HVAC HAWK]

MD MASTER SPARKY

you better lighten up some or you will become a master #!*%$@?*#

[Polar Sparky 1224]

Perry would be 100% right on that.
But now I have a question for you Perry. I've had 2 electrical inspectors tell me that you cannot have neutrals and grounds in the same slot of the bar in the panel. When I questioned them on this they can't find it in the 2005 NEC book. I have looked all over in the book and cannot find it. any info. would be appreciated!! Bob Carlisle, Pa. M.E.

When ever you have and arc fault breaker it will trip if the ground and neutral touch.

Article 250.2 definitions:

Ground faultam unintentional, electrically conducting connection between an ungrounded conductor [ black red or blue or your neutral (white)] of an electrical circuit and the normally non - current carrying conductor [or bare copper wire] ........

Basically your ground wire is useless if you have it connected the the neutral bare in your panel since the neutral carries back the return current and completes a circuit.

Also look at 408.40 below the exception "grounding conductors shall not be connected to a terminal bar provided for grounded conductors (may be neutral) unless the bar is identified for the pouirpose......"

[wwsmith]

Huge Liability Here

Go Ton Local Supply House And Purchase A Panel And Install The Cover On The Existing Panel
Chances Are That You Will Not Be Able To Find A Cover Alone

I Would Under No Circumstances Fabricate One

That is what I would almost call useful advice, once you get past all the arrogant BS. :p

WWS

[swoosh81]

Polar Sparky I did know that about arc- fault breakers but i was told by two seperate inspectors that they can't be in the same slot.

[Polar Sparky 1224]

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Minuteman]

[QUOTE=Polar Sparky 1224]I'm not sure what you know and don't know just don't take anything i say personal. It's hard to find it in the code book but there is a reason you can't have you ground wires on the same bar as the neutrals. The ground is meant to be an independent path to earth. Your neutral is meant to carry the return current back. QUOTE]

Sometimes the grounding bar is bonded to the grounded bar, other times it is seperated. If you don't know when it is, or why it is, then why give advice?

[Rocky Mountain Sparky]

The ground is meant to be an independent path to earth. ... Inside new panels you have a grounding bar that does not tie into your power it goes outside usually on 4 awg wire and clamps onto a 6' or longer grounding rod.
That's not correct. The Equipment Grounding Conductor's (EGC's) purpose:
250.4(A)(3) Bonding of Electrical Equipment. Non–current-carrying conductive materials enclosing electrical conductors or equip-ment, or forming part of such equipment, shall be connected together and to the electrical supply source in a manner that establishes an effective ground-fault current path.

250.4(A)(5) Effective Ground-Fault Current Path. Electrical equipment and wiring and other electrically conductive material likely to become energized shall be installed in a manner that creates a permanent, low-impedance circuit facilitating the operation of the overcurrent device or ground detector for high-impedance grounded systems. It shall be capable of safely carrying the maximum ground-fault current likely to be imposed on it from any point on
the wiring system where a ground fault may occur to the electrical supply source. The earth shall not be considered as an effective ground-fault current path.
The equipment's connection to earth is incidental, it's not the primary function of that conductor.

The primary function of that conductor is to trip overcurrent devices if a ground fault develops. It's the connection of the service's neutral to the EGC's that allow them to do their job. The earth has nothing to do with it.

The term "Equipment Grounding Conductor" is a misnomer, that will likely be changed to "Equipment Bonding Conductor" in the 2008 code cycle. It was held for review from the 2005's cycle. Hopefully they follow through, because the name throws a lot of good electricians into confusion. :)

Edit to add:

To ensure that "objectionable current" is kept off the EGC's, they are to be connected to the neutral once at the service, and kept seperate after that. So, if the panel is at the first means of disconnecting power, then you'll see the neutrals and grounds connected at that point.

Common practice around here is to install a meter/main disconnect outside, and then pull a feeder with two hots, a neutral, and a 'ground' to the interior panel. The neutrals and 'grounds' are kept seperate in the panel in that case.

Another section to note:
408.41 Grounded Conductor Terminations. Each grounded conductor shall terminate within the panelboard in an indi-vidual terminal that is not also used for another conductor.
Every neutral gets it's own screw. You should never see a 'ground' and a neutral landed under the same screw. On the same bar, maybe, but never under the same screw. ;)

[Polar Sparky 1224]

I was looking into that and you need to have separate bars for the neutrals and the ground wires but you can have a jumper connecting the two when you have feeders powering another panel. I was wrong on that part. I have never put a jumper in and never thought that was acceptable. But in the code it is allowed when called for. That is mentioned in one of the references i put up earlier. If i am still off in any way please tell me the code reference(s).

[Rocky Mountain Sparky]

I was looking into that and you need to have separate bars for the neutrals and the ground wires but you can have a jumper connecting the two when you have feeders powering another panel.
Where are you looking? This statement is incorrect.

To keep this brief, here's the summary:
The grounding conductors and neutrals are to be connected once, at the service disconnect. (250.24(B))
The grounding & neutral conductors are not supposed to come in contact with each other after that. (250.6(A))
Neutrals are not to be used as grounding conductors. (250.142(B))

Grounding conductors should appear at the very first switch in a structure, and be connected to the neutrals there. Beyond that, they should be seperate.

If you open a panel and see them connected, you should look outside and find the power company's meter with no breaker out there. Return to the panel and you'll probably find that less than six breakers shut off all the loads in the house. Usually just one breaker shuts everything off in this case.

[cinnamon]

Finally got a camera to take a picture---hopefully someone knows what type of panelbox this is. I don't know if the panel is original but I doubt it, my house is about 50 years old. The previous owner did a bunch of remodeling, and it seems it must of been added when they put in the full basement. The panelbox is in a locked area so fingers won't get in, but I'd like to get a cover on it in case a breaker trips. I believe most, if not all the breakers are from Crouse Hinds---but I'm not tall enough to see the top ones and I'm not interested in standing on something trying to get closer. :) How many breakers can go into this panel? What else do I need to know in order to figure out what this thing is? Any help would greatly be appreciated!

http://www.geocities.com/davidbriggs123/panel.html

[PLUMBER RICK]

cinnamon, i'm a plumber and i do better electrical work than what i see in your photo. :eek:

first off it's a newer panel. not 50 years old. a crouse hinds can be found at home depot. it's a cheaper type of panel. you defitnatly need to put the cover on to protect someone from contacting the open buss bars. also looks like the ground and neutrals are on a common buss:confused:. not too sure if a wire nut is legal in a panel box? the romex sheath (cover) should have been cut much cleaner and not allowed to poke into the box.

the wiring looks like a plate of spaggetti. also the open spacing between the breakers is not good. typically you stack the breakers and leave the extra spaces at the bottom for future use. it appears to hold 40 breakers max.

you might check with home depot for a replacement cover and door. or you might just have to purchase a new panel and swap out the cover and door.

let see what the pro sparkies say:confused:

[TOD]

I also see 2 double breakers in there with only 1 side being used. I would really like to know who installed this the old home owner or a sparky( would bet on the home owner). There are even white wires hooked to a breaker!

[Minuteman]

you might check with home depot for a replacement cover and door. or you might just have to purchase a new panel and swap out the cover and door.

I would bet, that panel is old enough for you not to be to find a replacement cover.


I also see 2 double breakers in there with only 1 side being used. I would really like to know who installed this the old home owner or a sparky( would bet on the home owner). There are even white wires hooked to a breaker!

Looks like a typical DIY panel to me. My advice, hire an electrical contractor! :rolleyes:

[Rocky Mountain Sparky]

I wouldn't hold out much hope for Home Depot getting a replacement cover, either. That panel looks very similar to panels I've seen that were thirty years old. That panel's grandkids, Siemens, are currently for sale at Home Depot.

You need to get an electrician in there to check out why you have two whites on that panel (and maybe pay to get it cleaned up!) There's some potential safety issues there.

Minuteman, would you believe I've actually seen apprentices trained to do that spagetti crap, so that "there'll be wire in case of a panel swap someday"? :(

[PLUMBER RICK]

You need to get an electrician in there to check out why you have two whites on that panel (and maybe pay to get it cleaned up!) There's some potential safety issues there.
:(

i looked at the close up of that photo and you can see that only 1 white wire is connected to a 2 pole 30 amp 240 volt circuit. what is lacking is color tape to id the wire as a hot. i assume that the other end at the load is not taped either. from a photo comparison it appears that the wires on this 30 amp circuit is only 12 gauge, when you compare them to the other size wires.:eek:

the other white is actually a loop caught behind the buss from upper to lower.

looks like a jack of all trades and master of none.

i had to correct 3 electricians and a gc today to move 3 outlets that were installed 2' above the floor and behind the 3 different dishwashers. told them to move them into the sink cabinets so they can be accessable. the
amazing thing was that they didn't see anything wrong with it. of course the drywall was already installed, but no cabinets yet.

was i right, or were they wrong:D

rick.

[Rocky Mountain Sparky]

It depends on what you consider "accessible." Which is different than "readily accessible." Behind the dishwasher is often considered accessible.

[PLUMBER RICK]

It depends on what you consider "accessible." Which is different than "readily accessible." Behind the dishwasher is often considered accessible.

not when it's 2' up the wall and you have to remove the dishwasher to plug or unplug it. i havn't seen this and i've installed thousands and thousands of dishwashers. both new construction and private residential.

by the way, these electricians also left out 5 outlets in the kitchen that were on the plan. the owner caught it after the drywall was done.

i only noticed this as a favor to the owner, as i was there to snake out a toilet. i'm not the plumber on this job.

rick.

[Minuteman]

Rick, of course there are good and bad contractors. Also, a company is only as good as the people they hire. Sounds like the 5 outlets and the one for the DW were a good catch on your part!

George, The spaghetti mess don't bother me much - it's ugly, but seen worse. The whites on the 2Pole that are not marked with tape are only an identification problem.

The main reason for my suggesting a Pro is due to the fact that replacement parts are hard to find and you can't put somebody else's guts & cover in an old panel. I have seen homemade covers - oh boy :mad:

Not trying to be a pain-in-the-neck, just think that that situation calls for a Pro. IMHO

[Rocky Mountain Sparky]

not when it's 2' up the wall and you have to remove the dishwasher to plug or unplug it.
True enough. I was just saying that "behind the dishwasher" is often considered acceptable. Generally, it's nailed just above the floor. Not to say it's a whole lot more accessible, but...

The main reason for my suggesting a Pro is due to the fact that replacement parts are hard to find and you can't put somebody else's guts & cover in an old panel.
I'd agree with that.

George, The spaghetti mess don't bother me much - it's ugly, but seen worse. The whites on the 2Pole that are not marked with tape are only an identification problem.
I dunno about "only an ID problem." Two wires under a screw, and who knows where it's companion is. I've seen some pretty serious screw-ups with symptoms like that.

So, the old PM's get delivered, or did you figure it out on your own? :D

[Polar Sparky 1224]

Last year all the dishwashers i connected were hardwired and we had enough slack to pull the dishwasher out and turn it onto it's back. I was doing what the journeyman in charge told me to do.

I'll get shot down for saying this but......
Readily accessible is something you can reach without moving anything or getting a ladder.
Accessible is something you can get to after moving something or getting a ladder.


An outlet under your sink for you disposal is generally readily assessable, except in my parents house.:D

It is really stupid to use a neutral as a hot and not leave any marking to tell others. I had to use some white wire to fix something at my inlaws house, both ends are wraped with black tap to protect the not so bright.

[Rocky Mountain Sparky]

Last year all the dishwashers i connected were hardwired and we had enough slack to pull the dishwasher out and turn it onto it's back. I was doing what the journeyman in charge told me to do.
You are the man. I hate it when folks cut their wires or cablestoo short.

I'll get shot down for saying this but......
Why? It's not wildly inaccurate. That's a good rule of thumb, IMO. Easy to remember, worth stealing. :)

[Minuteman]

I dunno about "only an ID problem." Two wires under a screw, and who knows where it's companion is. I've seen some pretty serious screw-ups with symptoms like that.

So, the old PM's get delivered, or did you figure it out on your own? :D

Your right, forgot about the double wires under one lug. :eek: Not good. :(

I believe the '05 address the marking issue better than any othe cycle. But, in all practicality, the electrons don't care.

Don't missunderstand, I like to install a neet panel, and I want my guys to as well. As long as they don't take all day at it. I'm just saying - a messy panel ain't against code.

Oh, and yeah, the pony express came through. :D

[Rocky Mountain Sparky]

Agreed. :)