Keeping Pilot lit in Wind

[Tacman7]

I bought and installed a Williams Gravity Direct Vent LP Wall Furnace from HD for myself.

It works fine until the wind gets pretty gusty. The pilot doesn't go out when it's just the pilot going. When the heaters going the wind will make the pilot go out then the heater shuts down. I tried turning the pilot up but I can't tell a difference after adjustment. I'm experimenting with a baffle for the vent cap and I played with restricting the air intake some, with limited results.

Does it sound like there is something wrong with the heater that it only goes out when it's running not when it's sitting with the pilot on?

Any thoughts suggestions appreciated.

Thanks

[BILLG]

Check inlet gas pressure it should be min 11'' W.C max13'' W.C. on L.P. system. If it's to low pilot will droop when main burners run and be more likely to go out.

[PLUMBER RICK]

sound like the issue is the draft diverter. problem is it happens when the heater is operating with high winds. typically when the main burner shuts off the air flow changes as the burner shuts down. make sure that the sheet metal around the burner compartment is installed properly. i would contact the facory for more advice.

rick

[HVAC HAWK]

if the gas pressure is OK watch the pilot to see if the pilot gets lower when the heat comes on . check to see if the thermocouple is still in the pilot when the heat is on .

[Tacman7]

Problem with checking the pressure is I'm a carpenter. None of my tools measure a water column. Whatever that is. Is there a gauge that I could buy that's not too expensive?

I've watched it when it goes out. The fire right around the thermocouple goes out then in a few seconds the whole thing shuts down.

I thought it might be a supply problem so I changed to a two stage fixed regulator that I bought at an RV place. I was using a regulator for a outdoor grill.
I have a 100lb bottle with a two stage regulator then a flex hose going to about 30' of 1/2" black pipe to the heater.

Thanks

[TOD]

This might sound like a dumb question but are you sure it is an LP unit? All I see on the HD web site are NG units.

[PLUMBER RICK]

tacman, you're in southern calif. why not let the gas co come out and look at it. they can measure the pressure,

a word of advise, if the problem is a danger, they will shut off the unit.
this can be a good thing or a bad thing.

i have a new customer that called me 2 days ago. he was having problems with his furnace. the gas co came out and determined that the main from the gas meter to his house is restricted, ( not leaking). they shut his gas off wednesday.:eek:

personally, if the line is not leaking and this has been an ongoing problems for months. why shut off the gas to the whole house:confused: no hot water or heat.

i'm going there today to check it.

a real dumb question. where in southern calif do you live that you use propane? and this is southern calif. i've had to run the a/c to cool things off these last few weeks:D

rick.

[Tacman7]

I'm in Riverside County out in the stix between Hemet and Perris. Unincorperated Riverside, Nuevo mailing address.

Yes summer came pretty early this year.

It's tough in Calif. No seasons, 70degrees all year round.

Actually, November of 2004 we had snow. It will snow here every 15 or 20 years.

http://inlandvalley.net/snow/index.html

The HD in Hemet sells propane heaters and propane waterheaters, even a tankless one. (which I'm thinking about - $500)

I have a guage around here somewhere that I used to check the pressure of natural gas but it was in PSI.

Can you convert PSI to WC?

[HVAC HAWK]

i think there is 21" wc to 1 lb so if you have a gage that you can read 1/2 lb
then a 1/2 lb will be about 10" to 11" wc you can get it close

the unit will shut off if the pilot goes out Wye is the pilot going out ?

you say you have a long hose and then it goes into 1/2 " pipe .
this may be to small of hose and pipe and this is wye your pressure
might be low . you may need to turn the screw in on the regulator
a little bit about 1 full turn . try to get a gage on the heaters gas valve this will be a Allen screw on the inlet side of the valve. you may need a 1/8 to 1/4 " reducer , this depends on what size your Gage .

[Tacman7]

Thanks


I looked up an online conversion...

13 Water Column [inch] = 0.469 654 794 pound/square inch [absolute]


Not much pressure.


I have a low pressure gauge for the quad tires. When you clear it, it stops on 1.5 pounds. I thought that was because there is that much pressure in the air here.

I'll try some measurements.

[Bob D.]

"...so if you have a gage that you can read 1/2 lb..."

13 inch Water = 0.46897546897546904 psi

You would not want to pay what a gauge that can accurately read to tenths of a PSI costs, not for this one-time project anyway.

The accuracy of a 'standard' pressure gauge that you are likely to pick up from a local plumbing supply is +/- 5% or higher for the cheapo 2-1/2 or 3" gauges. These are fine for monitoring the pressure of a well pump or in a boiler but to set a regulator for a LP or NG appliance no way.

Most gauges of this grade will not read in half pound increments directly, hence they are not considered accurate to less than the smallest increment that can be read directly on the scale, and are even less accurate the the extremes of their range (the top 5% or bottom 10% of their range). You may be able to interpolate a reading less than 1 PSI, but it is only a guess, nothing more.

If we assume for the sake of discussion the 11" to 13" WC is correct (as Bill suggested) for your heater (we don't know yet for sure because you have not given us any specs but it sounds reasonable) , then that works out to a range of 0.396 psi (~11" H2O) to 0.468 psi (~13" H2O). do you think you will be able to see a 0.072 PSI difference on that $10 gauge? I doubt it.

To read accurately low pressures such as this you need a very expensive CALIBRATED gauge ($300+) or CALIBRATED manometer ($50 and up).

Calibrated means the gauges' performance is tested and certified by a recognized calibration lab with traceable standards back to NIST Prime instruments.


" Does it sound like there is something wrong " you asked.

Yes, it does. The wrong person is doing the work. Before you hurt yourself or someone else have this fixed by someone who knows about LP gas appliances. I don't know about California, but here the Gas Company is not likely to come out and adjust the gas pressure for a stand alone 100# bottle feeding a owner installed heater connected with a mix of hose and black pipe.

If you have never seen what a 100# bottle of propane can do when it blows up be glad that you haven't. What occurs is known as a BLEVE (Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapor Explosion, but more commonly called BLAST LEVELING EVERYTHING VERY EFFECTIVELY). If you have a standard size building lot that needs clearing, set a couple 100# bottles in the center and cause them to explode, there will be nothing left within 100' radius.

If you still think you are the best person to do this work, make sure your will is up to date.

[PLUMBER RICK]

bob, don't give my wife any ideas. think propane is bad. try an acetelyn tank:eek:

time to bring in the expert.

"hank hill from king of the hill" knows propane:D

i have a low pressure gas manometer that i bought from a hvac supply house. even with this well protected gauge, i still wouldn't trust it. a simple liquid manometer is still very accurate. a very simple on can be made with a piece of clear hose and glass pipe. keep in mind that the calibration will be 1/2'' = 1'' of water column. that is because the u tube of the manometer will be holding water on both sides. you will be pushing the water down on 1 side while lifting the water on the other side.

personally you do need a qualified person to check for this and make proper adjustments if needed.

read the new disclaimer that josh has posted for these forums.

"thanks plumber and the mole"

rick.

[Gofor]

My MIL had problems with her new propane heater. Two items surfaced (Found by professionals from a different gas company than the one she got her propane from, which is why she changed suppliers). Because of improper installation, the regulator was holding moisture, which froze when the temp got low. (I won't go into particulars about drip legs, etc.) Also, the heater instructions stated a minimum 1/2" id line. She wasn't getting the volume needed to keep the pilot on with the burners lit.
If either of these might be the problem, mention it when you call the company so that they can have the materials on the truck when they come out.

[Tacman7]

My instructions say 11w.c. min 13w.c max.

The regulators available and that I see used around here are all fixed so there is no way to adjust the pressure anyway.

The 250 gallon tank for the house (that was setup by the propane supplier) uses 1/4" soft copper @ high pressure out of the tank going to the regulator mounted on the black pipe which goes underground to the house.

Having a bottle setup for this other heater the regulator is mounted right on the bottle so everything is low pressure. I have two flex lines that I'm going to try changing to a larger size.

I've had some improvement with my work on the vent cap.
I used this as a model:
http://www.selkirkinc.com/pdfs/typeb/HiWindTop.pdf

We have some stormy weather forcast for next week so I can do some real world testing.

Thanks

[HVAC HAWK]

sorry i had one of those brain laps and did not even think of the cap.

my suppler only gives us the high wind cap thats Wye i did not even think of that


Charlie

[Bob D.]

Rick,

The U-tube manometer is the type I am referring to when I mentioned manometers, The Dwyer Slack-Tube®, which is a U-tube manometer can be had for about $40, I've used them many times. They are accurate, but they don't make anyone more intelligent just because they are holding one in their hand. It wouldn't matter if it was a home-made U-tube manometer, a Dwyer Microtector® accurate to ±.00025"H2O, or a 0-0.25" H2O $2000.00 digital Heise gauge. I could have a Keithley (or any make) DMM or DSO in my hand but that doesn't make me an electrician or electronics technician or mean I know how to use any let alone all their functions. As you are aware its training and experience that makes the difference between a moron and a Mechanic.

To all the high and mighty electricians who have come on board recently:

I've had enough of wasting time feuding over the existence of the recently added electrical forum. You new members who think that it is a bad idea in my opinion are going about it the wrong way. You run in here and demand that the forum be removed and any post that offers advice about doing electrical work be removed. You say you have been monitoring this site for some time and are appalled at what you are reading. Why did it take so long for you to step in and right the terrible wrong that you perceive is going on here? What if someone had died because you failed to act in a timely manner? Would YOU be at fault? Could you be sued? After all, your vast and complete knowledge of everything electrical might have saved their life. At the very least you could have petitioned Josh or your holy master electrician/moderator to delete the post before someone got killed reading it? Have you written letters to the TV Networks telling them they need to get someone to review their DIY shows before they air? Have you called and demanded that they pull their dangerous and life threatening programming off the air, or written the FCC and complained about these TV Programs?. Get real would you.

Why not join in and introduce yourself and logically offer your objections of fears concerning something you've see here? Don't you think we would listen if you WERE NOT SHOUTING or threatening to petition the IBEW to boycott Ridgid and picket their offices? Is that how you train and guide the Apprentices under your charge? If they make a mistake do you flog them with your conduit bender? Or do you show them the error of their ways and set them straight by training them in the correct way to perform a task? Nobody's asking you to train or instruct anyone or give out free advice here, in fact no one asked for you to be here at all.

When the whole mole thread started I took it more as the initiator blowing off some steam due to his frustration with the pesky critters. I could sympathize because I have had to deal with them too. That was my mistake, because someone could misinterpret my suggestion to build a zapper out of PVC as for real. That part of my post was more of a joke, the suggestion to go read the information on the college website I provided the link to was for real. No one ever commented on if they followed through and read it, but it addressed and debunked many of the home remedies that were suggested. Since I felt I had a better knowledge of what kind of humor plumber might be comfortable with than say someone who just got here what 3 days ago, I made the comment about the PVC mole zapper, and his wacky idea of electrifying his yard was to me was just too far off the wall to be serious. I kept thinking of Bill Murray's feud with the gopher in Caddyshack :)

It all boils down to this.

If anyone is stupid enough to risk their or someone else's life on free advice they get on the internet, they deserve what they get.

If you gave me advice on some electrical problem, as knowledgeable and as correct as that advice might be. I can tell you right not that I would probably not follow it until I had verified it with someone I know or researched it myself and was satisfied you were right. That's not distrust, that is being cautious (not to be confused with paranoid :) ).

When someone in the oncoming lane puts on their left turn signal on, do you blindly trust them to follow through on that intention and turn left? Or do you wait a second or two until you are sure they are turning before you turn in front of them. If you are smart you wait, if you've ever ridden a motorcycle on the street you will definitely wait, because you know damn well people don't always do as they say.

If you want to hang around and give the members of this forum the benefit of your experience on those subjects where you see fit to do so then please do and welcome aboard. For those topics that you think someone is risking their own or someone else's life or limb by all means please say so. But don't pop in her out of the blue demanding that Ridgid appoint a master electrician to monitor all the posts and censor those that YOU or some other 'qualified' person feels is not appropriate.

I try not to offer advice on topics where I think the person asking is not capable of performing the work themselves (some here may not agree with that :) ). And when I do if I feel that it would be better handled by a PRO I say so. If they don't like my response no biggie, I'm not gonna cry to Josh or someone at Ridgid about it because someone is doing my work. I also try to remember to qualify my suggestions as just that. In the same way that everyone is trying analyze the cause of the incident in the link to the electrical story posted earlier, its all being done remotely. We only have the information that is given to us in the poster's question to act upon. We can't fully understand the whats and whys unless we are there to see the evidence first-hand, so any conclusions that are arrived at are mostly guesstimation.

Please stay and become contributors to the various forums and make some new friends. I think you will find that for the most part this is a good bunch of guys with level heads. We're not out to wage war on any particular trade. there are people here from both sides of the fence, union/non-union, but for the most part it has not gotten in the way of helping each other where possible. There is a mix of self-employed Pros, small and mid-sized Contractors, Journeymen, Apprentices, and many DIYers and handyman types and just plain hobbyists among the various forum members, and there is nothing wrong with that from where I sit. If you have a problem with it, please go away.

[HVAC HAWK]

well put BOB D

[BHD]

how to make a U tube manometer
(note: I am jsut posting for information not indorsing any web site or idea).

http://www.rverscorner.com/articles/manometer.html

http://www.komar.org/faq/manometer/

[HVAC HAWK]

now we talk about liability :rolleyes:

how about that web site that shows that even a kid can check gas pressure:eek:

[Pipestone Kid]

BOB D You expressed my sentiments exactly!! Very well put. Thanks. Jim

[Dennis/Ohio]

I do many do-it-yourselfer projects too. LP is dangerous because its heavier than air. You can have a build up and explosion similar to gasoline vapors. The burner orifice is smaller than natural gas but pressure is higher to push the LP into the burner (again because its heavier than air). You can buy a 0-16" water column gauge cheap. (Its just a glass tube and a hose you put water in) Talk to a local HVAC supplier. You want to check & adjust the pressure at the burner when its burning. If the pressure drops, your supply pipe is too small. Since you're a carpenter, ask around on the jobsite for some help. Hopefully you can find a HVAC tech to help you out. Natural gas is dangerous but I say LP is very dangerous.
Best, Dennis.............

[PLUMBER RICK]

I do many do-it-yourselfer projects too. LP is dangerous because its heavier than air.
Natural gas is dangerous but I say LP is very dangerous.
Best, Dennis.............
so dangerous that my liability insurance co. excludes coverage on lp gas.

rick.

[Tacman7]

The burner orifice is smaller than natural gas but pressure is higher


That is confusing. It's seems like I've heard that. But in talking about measuring the pressure I found propane pressure is 1/10th that of natural gas, at least that was what I got out of our discussion here.

I changed the flex lines from 3/8 to 5/8 at the supply end and 3/8 to 1/2 at the furnace.

That and the work on the vent pipe seems to have done the trick.


I have a friend that uses a wood stove because she doesn't want propane and there's no nat gas available. She had a friend whose house was blown up by propane etc. I've never known anyone that has had anything like that happen.

[ToUtahNow]

That is confusing. It's seems like I've heard that. But in talking about measuring the pressure I found propane pressure is 1/10th that of natural gas, at least that was what I got out of our discussion here.



You may want to pick up a manometer and check your pressures for your self. Propane should have a delivery pressure of around 10 psig while natural gas is .25 psig. Then of course you have a second regulator at the appliance and you will need to check with the manufacturer for that pressure.

Mark

[Tacman7]

You may want to pick up a manometer and check your pressures for your self. Propane should have a delivery pressure of around 10 psig while natural gas is .25 psig. Then of course you have a second regulator at the appliance and you will need to check with the manufacturer for that pressure.

Mark

I was thinking that natural gas was about 5psi for some reason. So after some research I'm finding natural gas is about 1/4 psi and the pressure the manufacture is calling for propane for this heater is about 1/2 psi(10.5-11W.C.) so that would be about twice the pressure of Natural Gas.

They give you smaller jets with most appliances so you can convert them to propane.

[AZPlumber]

I bought and installed a Williams Gravity Direct Vent LP Wall Furnace from HD for myself.

It works fine until the wind gets pretty gusty. The pilot doesn't go out when it's just the pilot going. When the heaters going the wind will make the pilot go out then the heater shuts down. I tried turning the pilot up but I can't tell a difference after adjustment. I'm experimenting with a baffle for the vent cap and I played with restricting the air intake some, with limited results.

Does it sound like there is something wrong with the heater that it only goes out when it's running not when it's sitting with the pilot on?

Any thoughts suggestions appreciated.

Thanks


Not saying this is what you need, check and follow all the great advice you've been given so far by the other members here. Just wanted to throw in, that for jobs where keeping a pilot lit on some furnaces (Natural Gas) instead of messing around with it I will at times instead install a conversion kit to get rid of the thermocouple and pilot and switch over to a hot surface ignitor. No more problems.