Wow

[ELECTRICMAN]

I AM A MASTER ELECTRICIAN LICENSED IN 4 STATES AND OVER 50 JURISDICTIONS I HAVE BEEN IN THE TRADE FOR OVER 25 YEARS

I HAVE BEEN MONOTORING THIS FORUM FOR THE PAST COUPLE OF WEEKS
AND I BELIEVE THIS SITE IS AN INSULT TO THE CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY AND TO THE ELECTRICAL TRADE

ARE THERE ANY MODERATORS ON THIS SITE??
AND IF SO ARE ANY OF THEME LICENSED ELECTRICIANS??

I BELIEVE THAT ANY THREAD POSTED ON HERE WHICH IS DANGEROUS IN NATURE SHOULD IMMEDIATELY BE REMOVED SUCH AS THE MOLE THING
OTHERS VEWING THIS STUFF AT HOME MAY ACTUALLY TRY TO DO THIS STUFF

A TRUE ELECTRICIAN WHO HAS ANY KNOLEDGE ABOUT ELECTRICITY AND WHAT IT CAN DO TO A PERSON WILL NEVER GIVE ANY D.I.Y TO HOME OWNERS FOR THE SIMPLE FACT THAT MANY THINGS CAN BE MISINTERPITED
AND SOMEONE MAY DIE OR LOOSE THEIR HOME.

I CANNOT BELIEVE THAT A COMPANY SUCH AS RIGID WOULD ALLOW
THIS TO GO ON ON THEIR SITE
SO PONDER THIS WHEN A HOME OWNER ASKS FOR ADVICE ON THIS FORUM
THEN GOES ON TO DO THE WORK AND IETHER HAS MISINTERPITED THE ADVICE OR JUST PLAINLY DOES IT INCORRECTLY AND HIS HOUSE BURNS DOWN OR KILLS SOMEONE
HIS NEXT STEP WILL BE TO A LAW OFFICE AND HE WILL SAY WELL I GOT MY ADVICE FROM THIS SITE
WILL RIGID ACCEPT THE LIABILITY??

THIS SITE SHOULD AT THE VERY LEAST BE MODERATED BY A QUALIFIED INIVIDUAL

Qualified Person. A person who has the skill and knowledge related to the construction and operation of the electrical equipment and its installation. This person must have received safety training on the hazards involved with electrical systems.

[NDMaster]

I too have been monitoring this forum. I am extremely bothered by some of the stuff I've read. I agree 100% with Electricman and MD Master Sparky. The least that could be done would be to have a qualified person moderating this site. A word of advice to any licensed electricians helping these DIY'ers, you can be named in any lawsuit that arises out of that advice. Leave the electrical to the pros.

[MD MASTER SPARKY]

Finnaly Some Sense

Thank You !!!!

I,m Surprised That A Rigid Rep Has Not Posted Any Input

I'm Also Sure That Some Legal Action Can Be Taken To Have This Site Removed Or At The Very Least Properle Moderated.

As A Licensed Master Electrician And Contractor And Since I Have Nothing Better To Do I Will Be Contacting Rigid.

[Josh]

Alright guys... I have been watching and we do have moderators for the forums. We do not have an electrician on hand here to double check every post for accuracy. The easiest solution would be to get rid of the electricians forum but I feel that it brings value to the forum. You could apply your statements to just about every piece of advice given in this forum. For example if someone suggests a technique on sanding a woodworking piece and someone has a finger ripped off I dont see how that would warrant shutting down ridgidforums.com or sueing RIDGID.

I have posted an annoucnement of a disclaimer to make it more visible on the site. As far as people giving advice to one another I think that its assumed that advice on this board is "at your own risk" If I wanted to scrub this forum of all personal opinions, suggestions, recomendations, etc. that concievably could be twisted into something to sue over then the forums would need to be shut down. You could apply this mentality to every forum on the internet though.

BTW.. I think plumbers idea for removing moles is dangerous and a bit goofy but he was merely stating his idea. If you read the whole thread some guys jumped in and changed his mind about some ideas he had because they may have lead to unitended damage.

I am sure this will turn into a fairly large thread with a ton of opinions. I'll keep an eye on it.

Josh

[MD MASTER SPARKY]

"when You Assume You Make An *** Out Of You And Me"

[oldslowchevy]

ok but what about the tv shows that have carpenter doing wrong and unsafe things all the wrong info on the net oh and book stores tha sell outdated books and the liabry that have out dated books as well and the hardwhere stores that sell the tools to do the job my real question is this when will the home owner be held responable? if i did this stuff and hurt/killed some one wouldnt i be held responable?

[MD MASTER SPARKY]

Alright guys... I have been watching and we do have moderators for the forums. We do not have an electrician on hand here to double check every post for accuracy. The easiest solution would be to get rid of the electricians forum but I feel that it brings value to the forum. You could apply your statements to just about every piece of advice given in this forum. For example if someone suggests a technique on sanding a woodworking piece and someone has a finger ripped off I dont see how that would warrant shutting down ridgidforums.com or sueing RIDGID.

I have posted an annoucnement of a disclaimer to make it more visible on the site. As far as people giving advice to one another I think that its assumed that advice on this board is "at your own risk" If I wanted to scrub this forum of all personal opinions, suggestions, recomendations, etc. that concievably could be twisted into something to sue over then the forums would need to be shut down. You could apply this mentality to every forum on the internet though.

BTW.. I think plumbers idea for removing moles is dangerous and a bit goofy but he was merely stating his idea. If you read the whole thread some guys jumped in and changed his mind about some ideas he had because they may have lead to unitended damage.

I am sure this will turn into a fairly large thread with a ton of opinions. I'll keep an eye on it.

Josh
IF YOU AS A SENIOR MEMBER HERE "THINKS" THAT PLUMBERS IDEA IS DANGEROUS THEN WHY HAS IT NOT BEEN REMOVED??

AND HOW CAN YOU HAVE A FORUM TO SOLICIT D.I.Y ADVICE AND NOT HAVE THE QUALIFIED PERSONEL TO MODERATE ANY ADVICE GIVEN ??

I BELIVE THIS FORUM SHOULD BE SHUT DOWN !!!

[wwsmith]

Just out of curiosity, I did a search on Google for Electrical forums. I had over 1,900 valid returns in .013 seconds (over 13 million hits). For the safety of my family and myself (and any of those terrible DIY folks) I beg of you to contact them as well and verify "proper moderators" or have them removed as well.

Some examples of these include Ford and Dodge when discussing the electrical components in a vehicle (ever seen someone drop a tool across the posts on a car battery, or short a coil during an engine start?). I certainly don't know why anyone would ever work on their own vehicle, so dangerous!

Ever see a forum discussing general house remodeling? I read one the other day where a guy put on a new roof and after he was done he was surprised that part of it fell in cause he went cheap and used 1/4" plywood which did not survive a recent storm and nearly bonked his son in the upstairs bedroom. Don't know why people would ever remodel something on their own!

I found a forum last night on house plumbing. A guy was trying to hook up his outside grill to his natural gas line at the house so he wouldn't have to deal with those darn propane tanks. I don't even claim to be an expert on such things so I don't know exactly what went wrong, but seemed to be something with a regulator or gas flow at the BBQ was wrong and he burned up his new BBQ island built. Don't know why people ever try working with gas lines on their own?

And this other forum where a guy was discussing removing the blade guard from the tablesaw and one guy had tried that and whacked a finger (his username is actually nubby). That was terrible advice and no idea why anyone would accept tool or woodworking advice from a forum?

I can keep going, but really just hope that you get the idea and will continue to look out for me and my well being. Because even though "stuff" happens and some people make bad or ill informed decisions we should all know by now there is a professional in all trades and they should be the ONLY one doing such work. Especially when it comes to electricity, which is the most dangerous of all!

Thanks in advance!
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[TOD]

Just out of curiosity, I did a search on Google for Electrical forums. I had over 1,900 valid returns in .013 seconds (over 13 million hits). For the safety of my family and myself (and any of those terrible DIY folks) I beg of you to contact them as well and verify "proper moderators" or have them removed as well.

Some examples of these include Ford and Dodge when discussing the electrical components in a vehicle (ever seen someone drop a tool across the posts on a car battery, or short a coil during an engine start?). I certainly don't know why anyone would ever work on their own vehicle, so dangerous!

Ever see a forum discussing general house remodeling? I read one the other day where a guy put on a new roof and after he was done he was surprised that part of it fell in cause he went cheap and used 1/4" plywood which did not survive a recent storm and nearly bonked his son in the upstairs bedroom. Don't know why people would ever remodel something on their own!

I found a forum last night on house plumbing. A guy was trying to hook up his outside grill to his natural gas line at the house so he wouldn't have to deal with those darn propane tanks. I don't even claim to be an expert on such things so I don't know exactly what went wrong, but seemed to be something with a regulator or gas flow at the BBQ was wrong and he burned up his new BBQ island built. Don't know why people ever try working with gas lines on their own?

And this other forum where a guy was discussing removing the blade guard from the tablesaw and one guy had tried that and whacked a finger (his username is actually nubby). That was terrible advice and no idea why anyone would accept tool or woodworking advice from a forum?

I can keep going, but really just hope that you get the idea and will continue to look out for me and my well being. Because even though "stuff" happens and some people make bad or ill informed decisions we should all know by now there is a professional in all trades and they should be the ONLY one doing such work. Especially when it comes to electricity, which is the most dangerous of all!

Thanks in advance!
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:What he said.

[ELECTRICMAN]

guys check this out

you all tell me who is liable or who will the courts see liable


http://www.local6.com/money/7302637/detail.html

[TOD]

No DIY'er there even the experts screw up.

[oldslowchevy]

it will be a combo blame 1/4 on the electrions(i know its spelled wrong) that did the home and in florida i think but do not quote me on this is a $250,000 fine and loss of license for up to 5 years,and 3/4 on the inspector that signed off on the job and buy not having the wire starped or bundled he knows it is up the river big time that is not only how i will see it but i am sure that is how most will see it and if i am wrong i am sure i will here it here frist

[Josh]

guys check this out

you all tell me who is liable or who will the courts see liable


http://www.local6.com/money/7302637/detail.html

obviously ridgidforums.com is liable. :rolleyes:

Seriously though. This forum isnt designed to teach DIY guys how to take on jobs they arent qualified for. This is a forum for discussing RIDGID tools and their use. They make this decision and take the risk into their own hands when they work with Electricity, Plumbing, HVAC, etc. I personally have done a lot of wirring on my own. I had my uncle teach me the ropes and have asked him questions when I ran into something that wasnt absoultuely perfect. And I have run into a circuit in my house when rewirring that was incorrect before I even moved in. People do dumb things including trying to save money on jobs that professionals should do.

MD MASTER SPARKY, Have you contacted the moderators of all the other forums on the web and demanded that they be shut down. You could extend your thinking to even shut down forums dealing with computer hardware. There are dangers in this world and some people are stupid. I feel that this forum does more good than bad. Some of the electricians on this forum pointed out that plumbers mole remvoving ideas were dangerous and prevented him from cranking up the voltage.

Take it for what it is. I believe this forum adds to safety by having professional opinions and advice available on the forum. If something is beyond someones abilities you will always see people telling them to hire somone for the job.

Josh

[wwsmith]

I agree with oldslowchevy on the liability.

[MD MASTER SPARKY]

Whatever

I Have Visited Alot Of Diy Sites And All That I Have Visited Thus Far Do Have A Qualified Individual As A Moderator

You My Friend Are Not Qualified

[MD MASTER SPARKY]

obviously ridgidforums.com is liable. :rolleyes:

YOU SAID IT

Take it for what it is. I believe this forum adds to safety by having professional opinions and advice available on the forum. If something is beyond someones abilities you will always see people telling them to hire somone for the job.

Josh

BUT YOU HAVE NO ONE HERE WHO IS A PROFESSIONAL

[TOD]

guys check this out

you all tell me who is liable or who will the courts see liable


http://www.local6.com/money/7302637/detail.html Looks to me as if house was built with metal studs. Screw goes through stud into wire making all studs in the house hot. Now isn't the service panel screwed to the house studs? If so a properly grounded service panel should have kicked the breaker since circuit was a direct short. Or am I missing something here?

[wwsmith]

Whatever

I Have Visited Alot Of Diy Sites And All That I Have Visited Thus Far Do Have A Qualified Individual As A Moderator

You My Friend Are Not Qualified

I would certainly not consider myself to be qualified to offer professional advice on certain subjects (eletrical being one of them).


I am really being serious here and hope you can honestly see that. I am curious what in your opinion a moderator is to be doing on such forums? Should a moderator be a professional tradesman in whatever forum/thread he is monitoring? Or can a moderator be a person who just monitors for illlicit, spam, advertising, violence, etc, etc? Perhaps both???

Is a forum a place to have an open discussion on a topic (Webster: A public meeting place for open discussion) or a place where anything that is said is monitored and seen as incorrect or wrong is immediately stricken from the post or "washed" by a moderator?

I am just curious how you believe a forum should be run in your opinion? Perhaps if we can have an open discussion on this we could find some middle ground???

WWS

[MD MASTER SPARKY]

I Think That If A Forum Is Giving D.i.y Advice There Should Be A Qualified Individual To Oversee Any Posts. And Those That Seem At The Least Bit Dangerous Should Be Immedeatly Removed

[MD MASTER SPARKY]

Whatever

I Have Visited Alot Of Diy Sites And All That I Have Visited Thus Far Do Have A Qualified Individual As A Moderator

You My Friend Are Not Qualified

I would certainly not consider myself to be qualified to offer professional advice on certain subjects (eletrical being one of them).


I am really being serious here and hope you can honestly see that. I am curious what in your opinion a moderator is to be doing on such forums? Should a moderator be a professional tradesman in whatever forum/thread he is monitoring?
YES


Or can a moderator be a person who just monitors for illlicit, spam, advertising, violence, etc, etc? Perhaps both???
NO, BECAUSE HOW WILL THIS PERSON KNOW WEATHER THE INFO. GIVEN IS RIGHT OR NOT
A SKILLED PROFESSIONAL WILL KNOW.

Is a forum a place to have an open discussion on a topic (Webster: A public meeting place for open discussion) or a place where anything that is said is monitored and seen as incorrect or wrong is immediately stricken from the post or "washed" by a moderator?
YES
YOU CAN HAVE OPEN DISCUSSIONS BUT THE LIABILITY IS STILL TO GREAT
TO GIVE D.I.Y ADVICE
WHY NOT SIMPLY SAY A DISCUSSION ON WIRING METHODS
AND NOT " DO IT YOURSELF" ADVICE
AS PRVIOUSLY POSTED ANY LICENSED ELECTRICIAN CAN AND WILL BE HELD LIABLE IN A LAW SUIT.
I am just curious how you believe a forum should be run in your opinion? Perhaps if we can have an open discussion on this we could find some middle ground???

WWS
FFFFFFFFFQQ

[TOD]

Show me what you know. Answer the question I posted about 3 posts up.

[oldslowchevy]

ww smith thank you thank you thank you i dont get upset with poeple but i must admit that md master was getting under my skin he did have some very vaild points that i could not disagree with though to me he is coming off as a bit rude and seemed to be treing to pick a fight(though i dout he was) i will say if he calms down just alittle and we as a group heed what is been said rather then how it is being said we all will learn from one another.and md master sparky welcome to this forum i am a carpenter and former bissness owner so when you speak of safety i for one will lissen whatever you or any one else has got to say

[Josh]

It has never been our intention to offer DIY advice on ridgidforum.com. Members are free to post advice and help fellow members out. My job as moderator is to filter out objectionable materials and keep people from flamming each other.

Theres really nothing left to say... I'll let this one run its course. Just keep this thread clean guys and try not to start and name calling.

Josh

[MD MASTER SPARKY]

ww smith thank you thank you thank you i dont get upset with poeple but i must admit that md master was getting under my skin he did have some very vaild points that i could not disagree with though to me he is coming off as a bit rude and seemed to be treing to pick a fight(though i dout he was) i will say if he calms down just alittle and we as a group heed what is been said rather then how it is being said we all will learn from one another.and md master sparky welcome to this forum i am a carpenter and former bissness owner so when you speak of safety i for one will lissen whatever you or any one else has got to say

IN NO WAY WAS I TRING TO PICK A FIGHT

REGUARDLESS I BELEAVE THAT SAFTY IS KEY

NO MEANING TO BE RUDE BUT THE FIRST THREAD I VISITED HERE WAS THE MOLE THING I WAS HORRIFIED WHEN I READ THIS

I JUST THINK THAT D.I.Y. ADVICE SHOULD BE GIVEN WITH EXTREME CAUTION

AS TO WHAT I KNOW

YES A PROPERLY GROUNDED SYSTEM SHOULD TRIP THE OVER CURRENT DEVICE AT THE SENSE OF A FAULT

BUT IF THE METAL STUD WALL IS NOT MECHANICALLY CONNECTED TO
ANY PART O THE GROUNDING SYSTEM SUCH AS BUILDING STEEL
OR COLD WATER HOW IS IT GOING TO TRIP?

ALSO THE SCREW COULD HAVE PENETRATED THE OUTER COVERING AND THE INSULATION ON THE UNGROUNDED CONDUCTOR BUT NOT TOUCHED THE
GRUNDED OR GROUNDING CONDUCTORS THUS RELAYING VOLTAGE TO THE STUD WORK.

AM I WRONG??

[wwsmith]

IN NO WAY WAS I TRING TO PICK A FIGHT
Your initial posts were so "overbearing" that I think it struck the wrong cord with some of us and perhaps things got out of control quickly. :D

REGUARDLESS I BELEAVE THAT SAFTY IS KEY
Agreed

NO MEANING TO BE RUDE BUT THE FIRST THREAD I VISITED HERE WAS THE MOLE THING I WAS HORRIFIED WHEN I READ THIS
I think we can all agree at this point that was probably not the best plan... :)

I JUST THINK THAT D.I.Y. ADVICE SHOULD BE GIVEN WITH EXTREME CAUTION
I tend to agree with you here as well. More often than not though, people on these forums are being safer than possibly your initial "Mole horror" thread might lead you to believe. ;)

AS TO WHAT I KNOW

YES A PROPERLY GROUNDED SYSTEM SHOULD TRIP THE OVER CURRENT DEVICE AT THE SENSE OF A FAULT

BUT IF THE METAL STUD WALL IS NOT MECHANICALLY CONNECTED TO
ANY PART O THE GROUNDING SYSTEM SUCH AS BUILDING STEEL
OR COLD WATER HOW IS IT GOING TO TRIP?
Again, we have already established that I am not an electrical professional by trade. That may lead my next question to look pretty dumb, but I was thinking that if the service panel was grounded and would probably be connected to the stud wall at some point which should cause it to trip? Or is that not how things would be connected/mounted? :confused:


ALSO THE SCREW COULD HAVE PENETRATED THE OUTER COVERING AND THE INSULATION ON THE UNGROUNDED CONDUCTOR BUT NOT TOUCHED THE
GRUNDED OR GROUNDING CONDUCTORS THUS RELAYING VOLTAGE TO THE STUD WORK.

AM I WRONG??
As you are the professional, I would would not disagree.

oldslowchevy, I agree with what you said. MD MASTER SPARKY did bring up a few good worthwhile points and offered some good advice. I also let things get under my skin which I normally would not do and agree with getting back together as a group with good discussions that brought me here to begin with. :D

WWS

[HVAC HAWK]

i think it is all plumbers moles fault

so i think we should all go to plumbers house and help dig up all the moles
and have MOLE-B-Q :cool: ;)

and that way we can get back to normal :rolleyes: :D

PS we will use a gas grill with out a rotisserie this uses electric and we know what might happen then

josh well done
you can also help at plumbers house to

[plumber]

Certainly did not intend to create a fuss. Was at my wits end with the damage to my property.

Other posters here convinced me not to ramp up my project and it ended. You can find a million things more dangerous being discussed daily on sites around the net.

There are at least 100 sites that teach kids how to make their vehicles go 200mph down crowded streets. Those sites are packed with paid advertisers who fear no lawsuits.

A person would be hard pressed to find a safer person on a jobsite than I. Even during a momentary lapse of judgement I took care to be sure no one including myself would be hurt. This forum can be very useful to people in many trades and competent DIYs. In fact this very forum convinced me to stop what was a dangerous idea from proceeding farther, so in the end it was a very good thing. Without this forum I would probably be spending this coming Saturday doing something very unadvisable.

[swoosh81]

see now people calm down!! it's only a forum!! if you don't like what's being written, then don't look!! simple solution!! take it easy!!

[Polar Sparky 1224]

i think it is all plumbers moles fault

so i think we should all go to plumbers house and help dig up all the moles
and have MOLE-B-Q :cool: ;)

and that way we can get back to normal :rolleyes: :D

PS we will use a gas grill with out a rotisserie this uses electric and we know what might happen then

josh well done
you can also help at plumbers house to

I'd prefer charcoal for my mole burger and I'll bring my cat along for some fun!!!


Aside from that, if a person is stupid and does things they know nothing about they can only blame themselves. If another person tries to help them and the advice it ignored or misunderstood again the problem is stupidity.
To blame an accident on a forum that is used to communicate ideas is ridiculous! That's what makes life so hard when you have inequality to the point where those that were once oppressed get better treatment that the people trying to make a honest living. We'd all get along much better if we could learn to respect people as individuals and quit trying to find reasons to sue someone.

An example of this is in my wifes family, Her brothers father in law had a divorce and was paying child support yet he still has the kids. Then who is the ex wife supporting? This whole world is going down the drain because we can't just get over things.

Like what my dad told me a few times when he and my mom would kiss, (and me being a little kid find it disgusting) I'd say yuck and my dad said if you don't want to see it don't look!

With my self I have worked on live circuits before and have never been shocked because i know how to do it safely. One thing i won't touch is a gas line! I'll do any other repair around the house but gas is for a professional.

Just play nice, a bad attitude to wards others has a way of attracted large quantities of verbal mud....

[PLUMBER RICK]

Without this forum I would probably be spending this coming Saturday doing something very unadvisable.
plumber, i was still waiting to see the results on the evening news.

i guess water and power don't mix:D

josh, maybe the electrical forum was not so good afterall:confused:

ridgid is plumbing. we don't need power:rolleyes:

can't remember any plumbing topics this hot:eek:

woops, forgot about the flat rate thing;)

josh keep up the good work. you're the only moderator that actually moderates and participates.

a final suggestion. ban plumber for 1 day on the electrical forum. i guess he started it. :D:D:D

rick

[MD MASTER SPARKY]

THANKS

GUYS, I APOLOGIZE IF I OFFENDED ANYONE (WAS NOT MY INTENTION)

ANYWAY I AM A LICENSED MASTER AND AM AVAILABLE FOR SOME ADVICE
JUST IM OR EMAIL

REGUARDLESS I THINK THIS THREAD WAS GREAT I ENJOYED IT

:) :p :D

[Josh]

I'm glad everything worked its way out. And I am glad you decided to stick around MD.

Later,

Josh

[RobertCDF]

TURN OFF THE CAPS LOCK KEY!!! Online were people can not tell if you are speaking normal or YELLING you use the CAPS LOCK to indicate YELLING (very rude)

[Rocky Mountain Sparky]

Now isn't the service panel screwed to the house studs?
No, bonding non-structural steel framing to the electrical system is not required by the NEC. For the moment, it's considered impractical to attempt to bond them together. The NEC has strict guidelines for bonding connections, and the current methods for constructing non-load-bearing steel-stud walls are simply not up to that standard. The current construction methods can't be relied upon for this purpose.

(I recognize the irony, that the very "questionable" connections that prevented a jumper from being required, resulted in the death of a man by the same exact connections. The aren't good enough to save lives, but they're sufficient to take them.)

If an electrician were required to make a good bonding connection, an electrician would have to install jumpers between every single stud, every piece that wasn't bonded good enough to it's neighbor on it's own. It would take forever. A proper installation should be equally safe.

Plastic bushings are used for running romex through steel studs (to prevent the studs from damaging the romex), and romex is required to be installed so that no point is closer than 1.25" to the nearest edge where screws and nails are likely to penetrate (NEC 300.4).

So, either someone used excessively long screws in the electrocution linked to, or the licensed electrician who installed the wiring did not maintain the code-required safe distance.

This death likely had nothing to do with a Do-It-Yourselfer, unless it happened to be the guy who used 4" drywall screws to install a medicine cabinet. Just my opinion.

[JimDon]

PLEASE PLEASE, those of you who are not licensed electricians. While Polar Sparky said he knows how to and has worked on live electrical circuits, all others should NOT try that trick at home. Here's why. A while back, I was installing some light fixtures for a customer and checked wires with tick tracer that showed wires were NOT hot. Did not shut down breaker because of this. Was working in a box that was supposedly cold and downstream from the switch and tracer still showing not hot. Got a 92 volt jolt from left arm to right arm because neutral wire was being used as a common neutral with an adjoining circuit. This will really light up your life, especially from one arm to another, so working on any live circuits when you are not 1000% sure they aren't carrying some current from another fixture is risky business guys. Just my two cents worth and hope it helps. Jim D.

[RobertCDF]

I do believe that electrians are a bunch of arrogant pricks... I guess folowing the logic in most of this post NO ONE but PROFESIONALS should do anything. Like plumbing, electrical work, framing, deck building, drywall, excavation, concrete, roofing, siding, DRIVING. I could go on and on and on and on and on and on and on. But I should not have to. Lets kind of looks this over as wierd as some of this may sound it could happen. If you dont vent pumbing properly you could have improper venting can cause toilet water to get siphoned into your drinking water. Electrical work can cause electrocution. Framing if not done properly or by inexperianced workers a wall could fall if not braced properly and kill someone. Trusses could be blown off a house and kill someone if not done properly. Decks fall off houses all the time and people get hurt and killed. drywall you may have some idiot put a 12' sheet on a vaulted ceiling and only put 4 nails in it and it fall off and hurt someone or kill them. Excavation you may puncture a gas line and blow up yourslef and others. Concrete not properly setting up forms could cause them to fail while pouring and hurt someone or maybe kill them. Roofing someone could fall off the roof hurting or killing them, improper nailing may cause a shingle to go airborne in high winds and hurt or kill someone. Siding improper nailing may result in a piece coming off and hurting or killing someone. And the most important thing of all LOTS of people are killed by cars EVERYDAY so I think maybe you should only take a bus, taxi, limo to work eveyday. After all these people DRIVE for a living they must be better than all of us DIY DRIVERS!!!! OH NO!!! Of this long list I SEE TIME AND TIME AGIAN the electrians are the bigest complainers and winers about DIY stuff I dont complain and wine everytime someone says "I want to build a deck any pointers?" I always respond with "I would be happy to give you advice let me know what parts you need help with and PLEASE check with your local building department and get the required permits and inspections" But I guess if I had chosen to be an electrian I would have to respond "NO YOU WILL KILL YOURSELF AND BILLIONS OF OTHER PEOPLE HIRE A QUALIFED PERSON!!!!"

[Rocky Mountain Sparky]

I do believe that electrians are a bunch of arrogant pricks...
Hey, watch it, bub. I'm trying to be helpful over here. :(

Aside from that comment, I agree with the rest of your post. ;)

[RobertCDF]

Sorry it should say "Most electrians are arrogant pricks" Not all are but a good amount. BTW this is not the only forum that I have met these type of electrians on.

[briselec]

No, bonding non-structural steel framing to the electrical system is not required by the NEC. For the moment, it's considered impractical to attempt to bond them together. The NEC has strict guidelines for bonding connections, and the current methods for constructing non-load-bearing steel-stud walls are simply not up to that standard. The current construction methods can't be relied upon for this purpose.


If an electrician were required to make a good bonding connection, an electrician would have to install jumpers between every single stud, every piece that wasn't bonded good enough to it's neighbor on it's own. It would take forever. A proper installation should be equally safe.


I came across a similar thing a few years ago. I was working in a dentist when I noticed my volt stick lit up whenever I went near an isolated section of wall. I found that one of the screws holding an outlet on had pierced a live conductor thereby making that whole section of steel frame live. It hadn't tripped a breaker because it was an isolated section of wall, not joined on to any other metal frames.

We also have rules here in Australia to try to prevent this sort of thing happening but none of them helps if someone uses an extra long screw.
I like to run an earth to any isolated metal frames that have live conductors in them, although I'll admit I often forget to do it because it's not a code requirement.

[Polar Sparky 1224]

PLEASE PLEASE, those of you who are not licensed electricians. While Polar Sparky said he knows how to and has worked on live electrical circuits, all others should NOT try that trick at home. Here's why. A while back, I was installing some light fixtures for a customer and checked wires with tick tracer that showed wires were NOT hot. Did not shut down breaker because of this. Was working in a box that was supposedly cold and downstream from the switch and tracer still showing not hot. Got a 92 volt jolt from left arm to right arm because neutral wire was being used as a common neutral with an adjoining circuit. This will really light up your life, especially from one arm to another, so working on any live circuits when you are not 1000% sure they aren't carrying some current from another fixture is risky business guys. Just my two cents worth and hope it helps. Jim D.

Totally true, i new which was hot and caped off the ends of the neutral and hots. I've never been zapped by 277 volts for a reason! The shared neutral carries the return current and will hurt. The one time i was shocked was in residential when someone turned on the room i was working in. Not a pleasant feeling when you can barley move your arm and you can feel the humming sensation in it too.

NEVER ASSUME THAT THE POWER IS OFF, even if you checked it and then walked off to fix something and come back 2 minutes later, test it again. Its a good habit to test anything even if you think it is off!

[Bob D.]

Ever heard of "Lockout/Tagout" ?

I know that you have, for those that are not familiar with the program, here's some background and training information from OSHA;

http://www.osha.gov/dts/osta/lototraining/index.htm

It is easy to think that in a residential environment you are 'safer' than in commercial or industrial settings, but in reality I'd bet the opposite is true.

[Lorax]

How about hanging a tag on the breaker that says "If you turn on this breaker I will (fill in appropriate form of torture or death here) you.:eek:

[Bob D.]

"How about hanging a tag on the breaker "

That's what the lockout/tagout program is all about.

Of course, the tag with the threat to do bodily harm on it if the tagout is violated only works if you live to follow through and carry it out :(

It's better to place some physical blocking device on the breaker, valve, what have you to ensure that some dummy doesn't ruin your day.

And as was stated by Polar Sparky; "NEVER ASSUME THAT THE POWER IS OFF, even if you checked it and then walked off to fix something and come back 2 minutes later, test it again. Its a good habit to test anything even if you think it is off!"

This is another part of the lockout/tagout program. The person performing the work and who is to be protected by the tagout is as responsible for ensuring they are safe. You can not depend on anyone else. Your safety is ultimately your responsibility.

[PhilG.]

A while back, I suggested that RIDGID (Josh) add a safety forum. While it would be helpful to have "safety" posts and threads in one place, safety should be of paramount concern in every project we undertake no matter how small or insignificant.

Anyone, as a DIYer, should err on the side of common sense when projects that they are attempting start to look like it is too much for them to handle.
That does not mean ask your buddy who just added a ceiling fan to his den, but consult a qualified, licensed professional. In our area, just about anything more than changing out a simple device (switch or outlet) requires a licensed pro.

Keep in mind that they tend to sell tools to anyone!!! That in mind, having tools does not equate to having basic common sense or knowledge. This is especially true of electricity. Even the professionals occasionally are careless and they pay for that carelessness.

Electrical safety has become a "pet" of mine.
You see, in August 04, I lost my 21 year old son to a CAT IV (http://www.fluke.com/download/library/1263690_w.pdf) electrocution.
This event was in direct fact due to lack of training.

So let's be careful out there!

[Lorax]

"How about hanging a tag on the breaker "

That's what the lockout/tagout program is all about. Yes Bob, I know. Remember, I lived with the system for 25 yrs.

Of course, the tag with the threat to do bodily harm on it if the tagout is violated only works if you live to follow through and carry it out :( It should certainly keep someone from accidentally or out of ignorance turning on the breaker.

It's better to place some physical blocking device on the breaker, valve, what have you to ensure that some dummy doesn't ruin your day. I totally agree. Just thought it might be difficult to lock-out a residential breaker.

And as was stated by Polar Sparky; "NEVER ASSUME THAT THE POWER IS OFF, even if you checked it and then walked off to fix something and come back 2 minutes later, test it again. Its a good habit to test anything even if you think it is off!"

This is another part of the lockout/tagout program. The person performing the work and who is to be protected by the tagout is as responsible for ensuring they are safe. You can not depend on anyone else. Your safety is ultimately your responsibility.Amen, my friend.

10 characters

[Polar Sparky 1224]

At that time i didn't have a lock for the breakers. If you notice how some for the breaker switch's have a hole in them that is meant to a lockout device. There are several others for gasolines and other valves or switch's. But the guy that turn the power on had no business doing anything near that panel. A few guys were running around the house painting all the light switch's. And i guess they needed to see their work? Lets just say one of them avoided me at the rest of the homes we did after that! If i had put some tap across that breaker then i wouldn't have been shocked. But sometimes people just take off the tape and never read what is written on it. My old boss lost a second pair of wire strippers that way.

[papadan]

guys check this out

you all tell me who is liable or who will the courts see liable


http://www.local6.com/money/7302637/detail.html
ELCTRICMAN, afterviewing the video and reading the article, it is my opinion that metal studs, metal screws, and metal ductwork should ALL be completely outlawed and every one of them that have been used must be replaced imidiately. GET REAL, a freak accident happened and what does this story have to do with this or any forum or advice given to or by anyone? Your advice was not asked for, go away. Now that is MY opinion.

[HVAC HAWK]

[QUOTE=RobertCDF]I do believe that electrons are a bunch of arrogant pricks...

like josh would say watch the name calling :mad:

there is no need for that ;)
use this instead @!#$%*&)?!? :D

[PLUMBER RICK]

i've got a question:confused:

if the wall is steel studs, then the outlet boxes would be steel? if the boxes are steel, then they are grounded by the fact that they are connected to a receptacle via the screws. the outlet or plug would make the bond to the box?

is this enough to have grounded the studs indirectly?



we have the same codes for our newer type gas piping (csst) stainless steel. the pipe has to be able to flex away from a nail or screw. if it's straped within 2.5'' it has to be protected. if left loose it will flex away from the nail or screw. the nail plates that we use for protection are made of a high carbon steel that are suppose to resist a nail or screw:eek:


long live the moles:D

rick.

[Rocky Mountain Sparky]

if the wall is steel studs, then the outlet boxes would be steel?
Not necessarily. Bowers make a plastic steel-stud box, which I have used. Perfectly legal.

if the boxes are steel, then they are grounded by the fact that they are connected to a receptacle via the screws. the outlet or plug would make the bond to the box?
Actually, metallic boxes containing receptacles are required to be bonded directly, not by contact with the receptacle. So what you should see is a (probably green) screw in the back of a box, and then running to the receptacle.

is this enough to have grounded the studs indirectly?
That would probably have kicked the breaker, and saved the man's life. It's not as guaranteed as it might seem, though. According to the story, for some reason power was shut off to the room in question. So, the circuit that energized the steel stud might have been from a distant circuit, passing through that room, headed to points distant. High resistances from long runs might have delayed the breaker tripping. Maybe.

The lack of a definute, rock-solid solution to this problem is what prevents action on it, IMO. Chances are good that with the publicity, some action will be taken. Hopefully, it will be effective and deliberate, not some knee-jerk response that's a pain in the rear without absolute results.

[TOD]

According to the story, for some reason power was shut off to the room in question. So, the circuit that energized the steel stud might have been from a distant circuit, passing through that room, headed to points distant. High resistances from long runs might have delayed the breaker tripping. Maybe.

I have got to disagree with this statement for the following reasons. Even thought the power was off killing the feed, the hot, the blackwire. That does not disconnect the white or grounds. They are not switched.

[Rocky Mountain Sparky]

TOD, you think he was killed by a neutral in this case? :confused:

[TOD]

TOD, you think he was killed by a neutral in this case? :confused:No what I was trying to say just because the power was off in that room it does not disconnect the neutral or ground. The studs were getting a feed from another part of the house. With out looking at the house where this happened I would quess that all outlet and switch boxes are plastic or a non conducting material. The only thing that baffles me about the hole thing is the service panel. How was it mounted? Was it screwed to the metal studs? Was it isolated from the studs? I am in no way an expert when it comes to being an electrician, but I did 3 years of school at a votech when I was in high school the course was industrial electricity.

[Bob D.]

"But the guy that turn the power on had no business doing anything near that panel. "

Those are the ones that will kill you.

[Polar Sparky 1224]

"But the guy that turn the power on had no business doing anything near that panel. "

Those are the ones that will kill you.

Those are also the ones that can't understand the writing and when i yell something they don't understand anything i said. One more little event that makes my a little frustrated. (PUTTING IT MILDLY OF COURSE!!!!!)