main drain is blocked

[oldslowchevy]

ok here is the deal my 14 year old son think his *** deserves a whole rool of poop paperevrey time he has a movment.well maybe not the whole roll but more than is needed that is for sure.anyway h ave always be able to unstick the toilet every time be for sometime it take 2 mins other times it takes some drain cleaning products no i dont use draino i get the good stuff at home depot that comes in the black bottle and in a plastic bag for 15 bucks a quart and has always done good by me.but this time it is stuck but good 5 bottle later and a hand opreated toilet snake(ridgid ofcorse) and nothing the local plumbers in my area tell me they cant get here for 3-5 days and the cheapest price i have been quoted is $475 to 750 and well for that price i will just go to home depot and buy the dang thing i can get an offbrand on for $450 and will have it for along long time and save me 25 bucks while i'm at it but does it really cost this much to snake a drain? and before you ask we were useing quilted paper but after this we will no longer be using that and the line is 50 foot max and it is stuck so bad the it has backed up in the sinks and tub so this is a bad one thanks for any help i will only be able to wait till about 5 pm today so i hate to put the rush on you guys but i think you can under stand on this one

[PLUMBER RICK]

slow down chevy. i think my wife has somethng in common with your son. problem is she has never plugged the toilet in my house.

the price that you weree quoted is crazy. sounds like flat rate ecs.

why not just rent a machine for $50. if it works great. if not you're only out $50.

anyone that can give you a price over the phone sight unseen, i would stay away from. especially this high. typically with a c/o it souldn't take more than 30 minutes to properly clean. if you have to remove the toilet to access the line, then longer plus all the prep work. still not the big $$$.

for that kind of money, you can fly me out there and rent the machine and still buy me lunch:D

rick.

[oldslowchevy]

there has to be a better way

[snake eyes]

there has to be a better way

Yes there is. Call another plumber and stop pouring chemicals in the toilet bowl. Don't rent a machine yourself unless you want to maybe lose a couple of fingers :eek: NO JOKE, pay a pro for their time instead of wasting yours.

[draintech1]

i've got a wife and 2 kids with that problem also. sometimes I think I should buy stock in Charmin and let my money work for me as it gets flushed down the toilet.

[AZPlumber]

I do hope it's not Mule Kick or Calci-Solv your'e using 5 bottles of at a time. Good grief. If it is, I'm amazed you even have pipes or a flange left.

The line needs to be snaked, most probably by pulling the commode and running a sewer snake down the line from that point (unless you have any luck with a main line clean-out). Waiting that long for a rooter guy is kinda crazy, unless you live in a small town and there's only one guy and he's real busy. In most towns they can get there same day. The rates you are being quoted for a simple snake job is ridiculous, most charge around 100 to 150$/hour, and usually does'nt take over an hour. You can try renting a machine and doing it yourself, but if you don't have experience with them, as Eyes said, you could easily hurt yourself. If you do call a rooter out, do be sure to advise him you have poured caustic drain cleaners down the pipe so he's warned and won't get hurt or destroy his equipment.

[AZPlumber]

for that kind of money, you can fly me out there and rent the machine and still buy me lunch:D

rick.

LOL!! There ya go.

[oldslowchevy]

well guys i did have to rent an snake and 100 feet didnt get it but 120 fet did and no i have never used a powered snake before so i just went real slow with it going foward till it started getting a small bind then reverse then forward and so on i am aware of the damage one of these can do i have seen one cause $3000 in damage and break the opraters arm shoulder and some very very nasty cuts and gashes along with messing up the sink tub shower and tile walls so i may have been a bit over my head with this job but it didnt take that long (1-11/2 hours at most) but i did laern a few things along the way such as i only have a 3" main not the normal 4" cast iron atleast there is not a clean out that any one can find so the toilet had to come up (god i hate the wax ring) and just how much i now respect plumbers this was a very driry nasty job ( i puked 2 times) and you guys do this evey day!my hats off to you guys but i will never pay flat rate prices for something like this and is there any thing i can use to maitane this small main for years of trouble free opration??

[wwsmith]

this was a very driry nasty job ( i puked 2 times).....

LOL. Hope you had a spare bathroom! ;) Heck my hat is off to all of you. I darn near yaked the first time I changed my sons diaper (Yet I have been cleaning out my own deer/elk/antelope/etc since I was 12 years old!)!!!

:D :D :D
WWS

[PLUMBER RICK]

!my hats off to you guys but i will never pay flat rate prices for something like this and is there any thing i can use to maitane this small main for years of trouble free opration??

chevy, what did you find on the end of the cable and cutters:confused:

i would add an outside cleanout so you don't have to pull the toilet and clean from inside the house. with an outside c/o you will probably have a 4'' line and cut your footage way down. also its much easier to clean and will allow for a lower opening to allow the waste to dump outside prior to backing up in the house.

i guess i don't get my lunch and mini vacation this time. maybe when you need to camera the line, you'll take me up on it:D

rick.

[oldslowchevy]

rick i have no idea what was at the end of the cable and cutter due to the fact that it went in to the sewer and washed it away befor i could get there to see what was. but on a lighter note i will up grade to a 4" main when i remodel this coming winter and i would be glad to have you out here then(no joke) but i will have to find out what permits will have to be pulled down here in florida they seem to be much pickyer then they were in maryland

[PLUMBER RICK]

chevy, you should have 4'' outside of the building already:confused:

winter? i want spring break:D

winter i can ski:D
spring break i can look:eek:

you might have roots. since you're new to this house you might want to check with the old owner or your neighbors. if you do have roots, you'll know in the next 6 months. maybe a gator:eek:

i would locate the sewer where it exits the house and install a cleanout. not sure what materials you have. but out here a good location is 2' out from the house as the pipe turns from cast iron to clay. this is a location that is prone to roots. since you cleared the line at 120' , not sure how much footage this will save you. a camera can tell you what and where the pipe is, how deep, what material it's made of and what is possibly stopping up the line.

rick.

[Gofor]

Couldn't tell from your post where in FL or how old the house. From your logo which says Maryland, I assume its a second house or you just moved. I just moved from FL (Panama City) and had the house there 23 years (built it in '82). We had PVC sewer. Our biggest problem was after inital construction, when our bathtub would fill up when the neighbor washed clothes. Problem was sand in the lines after the point where ours and the neighbors drains tied together before going to the street manhole (cul-de-sac).
If you live near the beach and wash a lot of swimsuits, etc., or have an outside shower, you may be getting a sand buildup. That could really be a problem if the line isn't sloped correctly with a 120' run.
Some of the cities had a lot of ground water intrusion into the sewers which would cause the dirt/sand to back up into the home sewers when the water got high (hurricanes).
As a side note: we did have sewer cleanouts, (which saved my carpets) For the five weeks we had the problem and were figuring out where it came from and convincing the city it was their responsibility because it was under the pavement, I would pop the top on the clean-out to prevent the back-up from running out of the shower stall. Smelled for a bit but I had the prettiest lawn of all the years I lived there!!:D
Luck to you:)

[oldslowchevy]

gofor i live in port charlotte witch is in the south west part of florida 30 miles south of sarasota and 30 mile north of fort meyers i onlr have a 3 inch main not a 4 and the house was built in 1961 had been added on to in 1973 and again in 1992.the house started out asa 660 sq ft 2 bed room and now is a 1900 sq ft 4 bed room and still with a single bath but this winter coming i plan on adding a new bath remodel the kitchen kill one of the bed rooms to expand the living roomi hope that helps oh and yes i still plan on installing a 4" main

[Gofor]

Save enough money for good hurricane shutters (either buy or make), if you don't already have them. Or, you can buy plywood while its relatively cheap and pre cut covers for the windows and patio doors, etc. The prices skyrocket and the supply goes fast whenever one gets within 72 hrs. Either one sure cuts down the time to batten down the hatches. If you have a garage, don't forget to make bracing for the garage door. Thats usually the weakest point for high wind to break into the interior and start lifting the roof off. Once the roof goes, the rest of the house folds up like cardboard.:eek:
Not trying to worry you. A lot of the older homes are built sturdier than the newer ones (especially those built in the late '80s and early 90's), and the fact that its still standing says a lot. Just trying to give you a heads up on something to consider during the expansion. I hope you enjoy FL as much as we did for the 20+ years we lived there. Still sorry we had to leave.:)
Good luck on the drain thing. This forum has some of the most knowledgeable people on the subject that I've ever had the pleasure of listening to.

[AZPlumber]

gofor i live in port charlotte witch is in the south west part of florida 30 miles south of sarasota and 30 mile north of fort meyers i onlr have a 3 inch main not a 4 and the house was built in 1961 had been added on to in 1973 and again in 1992.the house started out asa 660 sq ft 2 bed room and now is a 1900 sq ft 4 bed room and still with a single bath but this winter coming i plan on adding a new bath remodel the kitchen kill one of the bed rooms to expand the living roomi hope that helps oh and yes i still plan on installing a 4" main

3 inch main is the problem. Soon as you upgrade that you'll notice alot less headaches.

In the meantime, try using some of those new products they have out now, like the bio-enzyme treatments, they will help to eat away build-up and are safe on pipes, they have some you can just flush right down your toilet too if you don't have a clean-out.

[Ed Evans]

<< i am aware of the damage one of these can do i have seen one cause $3000 in damage and break the opraters arm shoulder and some very very nasty cuts and gashes along with messing up the sink tub shower>>

This is the biggest reason that I have for not starting drain cleaning earlier in my life -- I'll be 59 next month.

Can it REALLY get so bad?

Thanks,
Ed Evans

[ToUtahNow]

Ed,

Like any power tool drain machines can be dangeroue. I have been doing plumbing for 35-years and the worst injury I've had with a drain machine is when a cable under tention snapped and cut my feeding hand up. Had I not been a youngster who wasn't wearing gloves my hand would not have scars on it today.

Mark

[AZPlumber]

<< i am aware of the damage one of these can do i have seen one cause $3000 in damage and break the opraters arm shoulder and some very very nasty cuts and gashes along with messing up the sink tub shower>>

This is the biggest reason that I have for not starting drain cleaning earlier in my life -- I'll be 59 next month.

Can it REALLY get so bad?

Thanks,
Ed Evans

Yes, matter of fact it can get worse. Here locally, some johnny home-owner type went and got himself one of the big drum sewer snakes from a rental house. After 3 days of not seeing him around, his neighbor went over to check on him. They found him in the bathroom, with the toilet lifted and the snake down the flange.....and the cable wrapped around the guy's throat. Apparently, the cable had lodged itself in the blockage and kinked, and presumably because the operator had no experience in what to do in such a case, the cable flipped over in the drum and kinked up, grabbed him around the throat and basically choked him to death. Since then, all rental houses have stopped carrying and renting the bigger sewer machines to the general public.

They are dangerous machines and need to be highly respected.

[ECS]

Ok, I'm late for this one but I just now read the post.

Let me make sure I have the facts straight:

sewer blockage 120' away (of course no one new how far away at the time)

no clean out so the toilet has to be pulled and reset (it also means I have to drag my gazillion pound sewer machine through his house without ever bumping a wall, cabinet, table, chair, lamp, etc. or getting anything on his floors)

He pours 5 qts. of caustic or acidic something or other down his drain which is now sitting there waiting to eat up my cable which means more time than normal cleaning it when I'm done.

It turns out that the blockage is 120' away so unless I have a machine with that much or more cable on it, I will stop in the middle of this process to add another cable (all in his cramped little bathroom and still no touching of walls, cabinets, tubs, etc.)

When I get finished and have restored proper drainage to his house, I get to reset his toilet (with new bolts, wax ring, and probably new supply as well) and then I get to clean up his house because it's virtually impossible to drag that gazillion pound sewer machine through his house (especially while working in the bathroom) without touching something or getting something on the floor.

oldslowchevy and everyone like him hurls at the sight of a wax ring but they "... will never pay flat rate prices for something like this...", ok fine, do it yourself, but don't expect me to come play in your caca for peanuts and a pat on the back. If you truly respect what I do then don't suggest that it's outrageous that I should expect to be well paid for what I do.

My price:
service call $ 49.00
pull and reset toilet $149.00
1st hour on the cable machine (hey this is t&m!) $199.00
each additional hour on cable machine (in1/4hrs)$149.00
add a cable $ 99.00
and if I was aware of the 5 qts of stuff $49.00

total $496.00 - $694.00

[PLUMBER RICK]

Ok,

My price:
service call $ 49.00
pull and reset toilet $149.00
1st hour on the cable machine (hey this is t&m!) $199.00
each additional hour on cable machine (in1/4hrs)$149.00
add a cable $ 99.00
and if I was aware of the 5 qts of stuff $49.00

total $496.00 - $694.00
once again, you're prices are higher than in beverly hills:eek:

not saying that local flat rate plumbers charge the same, the customer is not going to pay this hourly rate, or flat rate charge.

at 120' out i wouldn't attempt to go from inside of a bathroom. i would install a cleanout for this and future cleanings.

by the way, i do 10% of my cleaning of mains from inside. with the proper machine and proper technique, i can be done in 1.5 hours without the mess or the big bill. granted i am not going to put in more than 100' of 3/4'' cable (been there done that:eek:) if it's longer i would look for a cleanout or install 1.

total cost for 1.5 hours with machine, and wax ring, caulking, feed line and labor. under 200.:D

there is a local co. that suckers the people in with their yellow page ads for $99. i've yet to see an estimate for under $1200. in fact the last 2 jobs i took over were priced at $9500. and $10,000. these were the lucky ones that kicked them out and found me:D the amazing thing is the work they proposed to do didn't exist. reline 120' of pipe. camered line and there was only 60'. the only problem was roots at a 2' section.

a $300. camera inspection with an honest opinion and documented video and location saved them $10,000. the work was done by the honest plumber that referred me. he replaced the 2' section and installed a cleanout at this spot for possible future use if needed.

a word of advice. if the plumber advertises in the yellow pages with a full page ad, and advertises flat rate,

stay away

rick.

[ECS]

once again, you're prices are higher than in beverly hills:eek:

not saying that local flat rate plumbers charge the same, the customer is not going to pay this hourly rate, or flat rate charge.

at 120' out i wouldn't attempt to go from inside of a bathroom. i would install a cleanout for this and future cleanings.

by the way, i do 10% of my cleaning of mains from inside. with the proper machine and proper technique, i can be done in 1.5 hours without the mess or the big bill. granted i am not going to put in more than 100' of 3/4'' cable (been there done that:eek:) if it's longer i would look for a cleanout or install 1.

total cost for 1.5 hours with machine, and wax ring, caulking, feed line and labor. under 200.:D

there is a local co. that suckers the people in with their yellow page ads for $99. i've yet to see an estimate for under $1200. in fact the last 2 jobs i took over were priced at $9500. and $10,000. these were the lucky ones that kicked them out and found me:D the amazing thing is the work they proposed to do didn't exist. reline 120' of pipe. camered line and there was only 60'. the only problem was roots at a 2' section.

a $300. camera inspection with an honest opinion and documented video and location saved them $10,000. the work was done by the honest plumber that referred me. he replaced the 2' section and installed a cleanout at this spot for possible future use if needed.

a word of advice. if the plumber advertises in the yellow pages with a full page ad, and advertises flat rate,

stay away

rick.



Rick,

I may be more expensive than you but I don't believe for one second that I'm more expensive than every other plumber in Beverly Hills (who decided that the rest of the plumbing world was to follow Beverly Hills' lead anyway)! But even if I am, it still bothers me that you apparantly associate any higher price than yours with dishonesty or thievery. I place a certain value on my time, knowledge, and skill and I price accordingly. Those people who want my services pay my prices. Thier is no dishonesty in it! I don't tell them I will do one thing and then do something else. I don't tell them that they need things that they don't. I bend over backwards to educate them and explain everything that needs to be done and why. I am not obligated to suggest to them that someone else might do it for less and I would also say that the level of service they receive from me is superior to that of many other companies. I hope that didn't come across as arrogant because it's not that I'm a better person or a better plumber, it's just that I make certain that I do certain things that seperate my company from others. If I charge more than you it doesn't make me a crook. If I sell people things they don't need while telling them that they do, then that makes me dishonest, or if I inflate distances, or manufacture problems while the HO isn't looking, but I do not do these things. To refer to one of my previous posts, it doesn't matter if you are t&m @$70/hr or flat rate at $300/hr, if you are a thief then you are a thief. The kid who swipes a candy bar from the convenience store is no less guilty than the CEO who plunders the company he works for. The magnitude of the crime is certainly different but the magnitude of the guilt is not.

I do business honestly and in a way that I believe is fair to everybody. I don't sell things to people they don't need (unless they just want them anyway) and when something is marginal I give them a repair price as well as a replacement price and I make sure they understand that if I repair it it may continue to work just fine or it may start having problems again next month. I can't always be certain how long a repair might last but I don't always say "Oh you're going to have to replace this or that 'cause this is no good and can't be repaired". If I'm looking at a 20 year old water heater that needs a certain repair, I'm going to quote the repair price to the homeowner and I am also going to quote a replacement price. I'm also going to give him my opinion which is that he should probably go ahead and replace the tank. If he called me for a burned out element does he have an immediate need for a new tank? No he doesn't, and I will tell him that, but I will also explain to him that his tank has far outlived the average lifespan of a wh and that he will probably begin to experience other problems with it possibly including tank failure. I may even show him a used, eaten up anode rod (and there is not a 20 year old tank anywhere that has anything left of its original anode rod) explain to him what it is and what it does and that his has almost certainly been gone for several years. Now do I tell him all these things to sell him a new water heater or to save him from a possible (Murphy says it will happen when he's gone on vacation) tank failure? The answer is both. Have I told him a lie or even bent the truth to get his money, I mean after all, all he really needs right this minute is a couple of new elements? Absolutely not! If I didn't warn him of these possibilities and next week the tank fails while he's away on business, what regard do you think he will hold me in when he figures out that he had an ancient wh and I was just there and didn't say anything? Will he ever call me again? I doubt it.

Educating the customer will very often lead to more sales. Lies, half truths, and deception will always lead to disgrace. If not in this life then certainly in the next. If I am straight forward and honest with my customers but charge twice what you charge it does not mean that I am a thief and it is unfair and unjust for you to suggest that my or any other flat rate company is. I am not stupid and I understand that there are companies out there who are guilty of serious abuse but it does not mean that they all are guilty of thievery simply because they charge more than you think they should. One more thing, if you charged any less, especially in California of all places, I don't see how it could possibly be worth remaining in business (I actually don't see how it is worth it now). After your costs you would almost be better off closing the doors and going to work for someone else and only a one man shop could possibly survive at your rates. So there is a place for the one man shop and there is a place for the 20 truck company (you can't be everywhere at once). The one man shop can continue to bad mouth the "Big Guys" but what does the customer do when they need someone right now and the one man shop can't come because he's down in a hole covered with mud and who knows what else.

I'm done rambling now but maybe just try and entertain the thought that it may be possible that some other company might charge more than you and at the same time be innocent of any deceit or thievery.

[ToUtahNow]

Rick,

I may be more expensive than you but I don't believe for one second that I'm more expensive than every other plumber in Beverly Hills (who decided that the rest of the plumbing world was to follow Beverly Hills' lead anyway)! But even if I am, it still bothers me that you apparantly associate any higher price than yours with dishonesty or thievery. I place a certain value on my time, knowledge, and skill and I price accordingly. Those people who want my services pay my prices. Thier is no dishonesty in it! I don't tell them I will do one thing and then do something else. I don't tell them that they need things that they don't. I bend over backwards to educate them and explain everything that needs to be done and why. I am not obligated to suggest to them that someone else might do it for less and I would also say that the level of service they receive from me is superior to that of many other companies. I hope that didn't come across as arrogant because it's not that I'm a better person or a better plumber, it's just that I make certain that I do certain things that seperate my company from others. If I charge more than you it doesn't make me a crook. If I sell people things they don't need while telling them that they do, then that makes me dishonest, or if I inflate distances, or manufacture problems while the HO isn't looking, but I do not do these things. To refer to one of my previous posts, it doesn't matter if you are t&m @$70/hr or flat rate at $300/hr, if you are a thief then you are a thief. The kid who swipes a candy bar from the convenience store is no less guilty than the CEO who plunders the company he works for. The magnitude of the crime is certainly different but the magnitude of the guilt is not.

I do business honestly and in a way that I believe is fair to everybody. I don't sell things to people they don't need (unless they just want them anyway) and when something is marginal I give them a repair price as well as a replacement price and I make sure they understand that if I repair it it may continue to work just fine or it may start having problems again next month. I can't always be certain how long a repair might last but I don't always say "Oh you're going to have to replace this or that 'cause this is no good and can't be repaired". If I'm looking at a 20 year old water heater that needs a certain repair, I'm going to quote the repair price to the homeowner and I am also going to quote a replacement price. I'm also going to give him my opinion which is that he should probably go ahead and replace the tank. If he called me for a burned out element does he have an immediate need for a new tank? No he doesn't, and I will tell him that, but I will also explain to him that his tank has far outlived the average lifespan of a wh and that he will probably begin to experience other problems with it possibly including tank failure. I may even show him a used, eaten up anode rod (and there is not a 20 year old tank anywhere that has anything left of its original anode rod) explain to him what it is and what it does and that his has almost certainly been gone for several years. Now do I tell him all these things to sell him a new water heater or to save him from a possible (Murphy says it will happen when he's gone on vacation) tank failure? The answer is both. Have I told him a lie or even bent the truth to get his money, I mean after all, all he really needs right this minute is a couple of new elements? Absolutely not! If I didn't warn him of these possibilities and next week the tank fails while he's away on business, what regard do you think he will hold me in when he figures out that he had an ancient wh and I was just there and didn't say anything? Will he ever call me again? I doubt it.

Educating the customer will very often lead to more sales. Lies, half truths, and deception will always lead to disgrace. If not in this life then certainly in the next. If I am straight forward and honest with my customers but charge twice what you charge it does not mean that I am a thief and it is unfair and unjust for you to suggest that my or any other flat rate company is. I am not stupid and I understand that there are companies out there who are guilty of serious abuse but it does not mean that they all are guilty of thievery simply because they charge more than you think they should. One more thing, if you charged any less, especially in California of all places, I don't see how it could possibly be worth remaining in business (I actually don't see how it is worth it now). After your costs you would almost be better off closing the doors and going to work for someone else and only a one man shop could possibly survive at your rates. So there is a place for the one man shop and there is a place for the 20 truck company (you can't be everywhere at once). The one man shop can continue to bad mouth the "Big Guys" but what does the customer do when they need someone right now and the one man shop can't come because he's down in a hole covered with mud and who knows what else.

I'm done rambling now but maybe just try and entertain the thought that it may be possible that some other company might charge more than you and at the same time be innocent of any deceit or thievery.


ECS,

I can guarantee your time, knowledge and skill cannot touch that of Rick’s or mine. Between the two of us we have over 60-years of doing this stuff. When I read the rates you charge I cringe. If you feel you’re not taking advantage of your customer so be it. You appear to base your value on whatever the uninformed layperson will allow. When you are a Certified Cost Estimator you base your price on real world costs and values. I would love to have one of your invoices on one of my cases just to see how well one of your invoice would do.

Mark

[oldslowchevy]

Ok, I'm late for this one but I just now read the post.

Let me make sure I have the facts straight:

sewer blockage 120' away (of course no one new how far away at the time)

no clean out so the toilet has to be pulled and reset (it also means I have to drag my gazillion pound sewer machine through his house without ever bumping a wall, cabinet, table, chair, lamp, etc. or getting anything on his floors)

He pours 5 qts. of caustic or acidic something or other down his drain which is now sitting there waiting to eat up my cable which means more time than normal cleaning it when I'm done.

It turns out that the blockage is 120' away so unless I have a machine with that much or more cable on it, I will stop in the middle of this process to add another cable (all in his cramped little bathroom and still no touching of walls, cabinets, tubs, etc.)

When I get finished and have restored proper drainage to his house, I get to reset his toilet (with new bolts, wax ring, and probably new supply as well) and then I get to clean up his house because it's virtually impossible to drag that gazillion pound sewer machine through his house (especially while working in the bathroom) without touching something or getting something on the floor.

oldslowchevy and everyone like him hurls at the sight of a wax ring but they "... will never pay flat rate prices for something like this...", ok fine, do it yourself, but don't expect me to come play in your caca for peanuts and a pat on the back. If you truly respect what I do then don't suggest that it's outrageous that I should expect to be well paid for what I do.

My price:
service call $ 49.00
pull and reset toilet $149.00
1st hour on the cable machine (hey this is t&m!) $199.00
each additional hour on cable machine (in1/4hrs)$149.00
add a cable $ 99.00
and if I was aware of the 5 qts of stuff $49.00

total $496.00 - $694.00
all i can really say is ummmmmmmm bite me!!!!!!!!!!!

[ECS]

all i can really say is ummmmmmmm bite me!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm real curious what you think would be a fair price to drive to YOUR house, play in YOUR sh#t, fix YOUR problem, put it all back together, and leave YOUR home at least as clean as it was when I got there?


and Utah,

"You appear to base your value on whatever the uninformed layperson will allow."

my rates are consistent, written on my invoices (the most common repairs, there would not be enough room for every conceivable repair) and even though I present a guaranteed price in a flat rate format, as I have explained before, the price is based upon, this basic formula, $150.00 per hour + [(material cost + tax) X 2]. Furthermore, every flat rate system is based, ultimately, on some similar formula.

I also want to say that I am not a slave to the flat rate system that I use. I did not develop this particular system and it is not perfect (not that it would be if I had). I continually find things that I feel need to be adjusted and when I do, that's precisely what I do, I change the price to what I think is closer to this formula (sometimes even after the price has been quoted and accepted). With everything considered I TRULY BELIEVE that this is a fairer system for everybody. I don't go to a restaraunt, sit down, and just start having them bring me stuff until I know what everything costs and my experience tells me that people don't want me touching their plumbing until they know how much it's going to cost and yes, in order to be able to guarantee someone a price, I have to price it to cover some level of unforseens. The bottom line of this is and always has been the fact that you and Rick and some others don't think a plumber should be ALLOWED to make $150.00 per hour. Ok, fine, that's your opinion but what do you base your opinion on? What everybody else is doing? Because this is the way it's always been done? Because "that's too much, it just isn't right? HA, SAYS WHO! You want me to come to your home and fix your stuff? Fine, I'm honored and I count it a priveledge to serve you, I know exactly how to fix your problem, and I will provide you with the very best service I know how to give, I'll be gracious and kind to your kid who wants to know absolutely everything I'm doing and why (all translated into 4 year oldese), and I won't kick your dog when he decides he'll have some of my boot for lunch (or worse yet, tries to take an amorous liberty with my leg), and this is what it will cost. But don't tell me I'm ripping you off just because you think it's not right for me to make that much money.

[ECS]

ECS,

I can guarantee your time, knowledge and skill cannot touch that of Rick’s or mine. Between the two of us we have over 60-years of doing this stuff. When I read the rates you charge I cringe. If you feel you’re not taking advantage of your customer so be it. You appear to base your value on whatever the uninformed layperson will allow. When you are a Certified Cost Estimator you base your price on real world costs and values. I would love to have one of your invoices on one of my cases just to see how well one of your invoice would do.

Mark

Oh yeah, I never said my time, knowledge, or skill was more valuable or better than yours. I simply said it has a specific value to me and I charge accordingly. Most people do not possess the knowledge and skill that I do (simply because they are not plumbers and have no desire to be) others far surpass my knowledge and skill, maybe you are one of those people, I'm willing to take your word for it. I charge what I charge not because I'm a superior plumber, I charge what I charge because I am a competent plumber who values his personal time, knowledge, and skill at $150.00 per hour plus 2 X materials. I happen to think that your time, knowledge, and skill is worth at least that much too, I can't help it if you don't agree.

[ToUtahNow]

Oh yeah, I never said my time, knowledge, or skill was more valuable or better than yours. I simply said it has a specific value to me and I charge accordingly. Most people do not possess the knowledge and skill that I do (simply because they are not plumbers and have no desire to be) others far surpass my knowledge and skill, maybe you are one of those people, I'm willing to take your word for it. I charge what I charge not because I'm a superior plumber, I charge what I charge because I am a competent plumber who values his personal time, knowledge, and skill at $150.00 per hour plus 2 X materials. I happen to think that your time, knowledge, and skill is worth at least that much too, I can't help it if you don't agree.


My rates start where yours are and go to double that but I no longer do plumbing. These days I am a Plumbing & Mechanical Consultant. My billable rates are based on my years of experience in the field plus my knowledge of not just plumbing & mechanical but of labor and material rates as well. On top of Construction Defect Litigation I consult for very sucessful plumbers. Some of the contracts I work on are in the millions of dollars. There is no question the rates you claim to charge are unreasonable but that is just my Expert opinion.

Mark

[PLUMBER RICK]

ecs, typically the price of goods and services are based upon the cost of living in a specific region or area. i don't believe that central alabama is an area that has a higher cost of living than most.

i was just sent a post card of recent sales in the neighborhood. they started at 1.4 million and peaked at 2.6 million. i don't charge more or less based on the price of the home. i charge what i feel is a reasonable price for what i provide. infact there is not a contractor around that has the equipment that i own. that's another reason why other contractors including many large plumbing contractors call me for specialized work. i don't go there to steal their customer, i don't even give them my card. i tell them to call the original contractor.
one of the main reasons i don't have any employees is the fact that workers comp here in calif. is higher than anywhere in the country. #2 when i get a call, i do it myself. i don't rely on anyone else. they call me, they get me.

i realize that it sounds like you handle your business practices like i do mine. i explain all the good, bad and ugly to the customer. i give them the very most honest truth. i don't do jobs that i feel are not worth my time. (repipes and sprinklers) the difference is that i do it for 1/2 your price. with 25+ years of full time plumbing + another 5 years while in school. i don't need to run to the supply house every day. maybe once a week. i inventory 2500 sq.' of material and equipment. all this while making anywhere from $3.00 an hour in 1975 to $75.00 in 2006.

just because someone else charges a fortune with less experience and less overhead, doesn't mean i have too. i do compliment you in the fact that it sounds like you're very honest with your clients. the issue is i can't see that your time is worth what you charge. same with most lawyers too. a lawyer has a few years worth of higher education than i. i have many years of specalized knowledge over them. they have a nice office with a computer, fax machine, file cabinets, copier, and maybe a legal library. not anywhere close to what i own or have in inventory. the funny thing is i have dozens of lawyers for clients. fortunatly none of them have me for a client.:D

ecs, not knocking your ethics, just questioning what you think your really worth. i call it quits when an eating establishment charges more than $3.00 for a coke. i don't care if they serve it topless:eek: a coke is a coke.
no reason why a coke cost twice as much there as it cost here:confused:

can your local economy really bear the cost of a $150. an hour plumber?

the issue is that you hide it in the flat rate charge. if the client knew you charge $150. an hour, do you really think they would hire you? they know i charge $75 and have no problem hiring me or keeping me there for the day.

rick.

[ToUtahNow]

ecs,

the issue is that you hide it in the flat rate charge. if the client knew you charge $150. an hour, do you really think they would hire you? they know i charge $75 and have no problem hiring me or keeping me there for the day.

rick.

BINGO!

Mark

[Norcal1]

I'm really surprised that people feel that ECS's rates are that high...seems pretty typical where I live and work.

I know of several companies that will charge $300 to pull a toilet and replace the wax ring, and ECS is only charging $150.

Rick, I've come to like you and repect you after reading a bunch of your posts, and I have to say that I think you are underestimating the value of your services. If you worked in my area, you would be the second cheapest plumber at $75/hr. Only I charge less and that will be changing next year.

I think this stems from the fact that you have been doing this for such a long time and you compare today's rates to years gone by. But I think you need to compare your rates to other "professionals": Real estate agents typically make over $10,000 on ONE sale of a home...way more in your neck of the woods...are they worth that? How much do you think they make per hour?

I had a conversation with a client, yesterday, and he told me that his accountant was charging him $175/hr.

We, as plumbers, literally risk our health and safety on a routine basis, and we have an expertise that takes years and years to aquire. I don't think its unreasonable to charge according to our expertise and the risks that we encounter.

It's unfortunate that we are "slinging mud" at each other over prices. IMO, we all deserve to make as much or more than Real Estate Agents and Accountants. And this comes from a formerly licensed RE Agent and Loan Officer (AKA: Pencil Pusher:D )

[FINER9998]

And I thought the electricians were touchy!!!

[franklie]

If you worked in my area, you would be the second cheapest plumber at $75/hr. Only I charge less and that will be changing next year.

$75/hr X 2080 hr/yr = $156000/yr (based on a 40 hour work-week)

the $75/hr rate takes into consideration all taxes, medical & dental insurance, retirement, and the vacation Rick will be taking with his wife. does it take into consideration his overhead expenses such as billing, lighting, etc?

2 weeks vacation/ year + 2 weeks sick leave/ holidays leaves him with
$75/hr X 1920 hr/yr = $144000 gross

divide $144000 by 2 to get an approximate annual salary = $72000
(the other half of the $144000 is used to pay for all his overhead expenses like I mentioned above)

When you're good you don't have to chase down work; the work comes to you by referral. I have a feeling that Rick does just fine at $75/hr and gives good value to his customers.

[PLUMBER RICK]

$75/hr X 2080 hr/yr = $156000/yr (based on a 40 hour work-week)

the $75/hr rate takes into consideration all taxes, medical & dental insurance, retirement, and the vacation Rick will be taking with his wife. does it take into consideration his overhead expenses such as billing, lighting, etc?

2 weeks vacation/ year + 2 weeks sick leave/ holidays leaves him with
$75/hr X 1920 hr/yr = $144000 gross

divide $144000 by 2 to get an approximate annual salary = $72000
(the other half of the $144000 is used to pay for all his overhead expenses like I mentioned above)

When you're good you don't have to chase down work; the work comes to you by referral. I have a feeling that Rick does just fine at $75/hr and gives good value to his customers.

franklie, just as i was teeing off on the first hole of a rainy golf day this morning, my accountant called. he will have my #'s for me to pick up in the morning. we'll see how close you are:eek:

if only my net would equal my golf score x 1000, i would be happy.:D

norcal, thank's for the compliments. just think you and i together are still cheaper than ecs.

i agree with the fact that a real estate sales person is over paid. i've always thought this myself. especially since they always want something from me for free. all they do is list or sell a property. not that difficult since around here when a sign goes up and there is an open house, there will be a dozen offers the same day and sell for 15% more than asking price. they could sell sand to someone in the desert:eek:

all in all i guess compared to what i was earning in a union shop, this isn't too far off. i still have buddies that are 25+ years in the union, that can run circles around anyone in new construction earning alot less. sure their day ends at 3:00 and the phone doesn't wake them up. my day starts at 7 and i go to sleep about midnight. (see some of my late night post). they chose to stay in the union, i chose to work for myself. we're all happy and not complaining. i just think that too many flat rate co's are out to get rich quick at the cost of the unsuspecting customer. i see it on a daily basis. i hear about it everytime i go to a new referral. i see their estimates that are out of this world and are a complete scam. the real problem is the consumer needs to make a stand and go after the crooks. there is always a few bad apples in the crate. now i see more bad apples than good. this wasn't the way it was in 1981.

rick.

[Norcal1]

$75/hr X 2080 hr/yr = $156000/yr (based on a 40 hour work-week)

What we don't know in the above equation is whether it takes 60 hours of time to get 40 hours of work.

What I mean is, some plumbers charge for travel time, some don't. Those that don't charge for their travel time would have to work longer than 8 hours to receive 8 hours of billable time.

Personally, I generally won't schedule more than an 8 hour work day, which means I usually only receive about 6 billable hours in a "day", because I don't charge for travel time and I drive to several jobs in a day. This is fine by me because I still make a fine living and I have no desire to work like a dog, I'm middle aged now and want to "enjoy" life while I still have my health. :)

By the way, FYI, my Real Estate Agent pulled down over 600K last year and worked far less than I did, without all the hazards to health and without the back aches.:(

[oldslowchevy]

well here is the deal i live in small home with only one bath so when the drain got blocked i freaked.but what you didn't know what i had already had the toilet pulled and a new wax ring and bolts waiting to be installed.i didn't care about the mess as the home is under renovations so the home is in disaray anyways.do i expect some one to do the job for free ........ummmm would be nice but i know better than thatbut i would pay 100-150 most defantly i would have 200 yes in a pinch but would not have been overly happy with it.but 300 or more no thanks.i did go to the depot and rented the bigest unit they had along with the the largest cuter(3 1/2 inch i belive it was called a spade)as well as an extra cable but i was unaware that the bottles of drain cleaner was as harmful as it opps my bad but in the same token i was getting pretty despret as well.but instead of jumping all over my butt and everyone elses for that matter please learn the facts frist.also don't think that every one who posts on here is such a dumb home owner i have giving more advise on here then needed it for myself so when i do need it i dont expect to be refered to as just an home owner i have been in all phases of carpantry for the last 13 years and just started with a plumbing company with in the last month so i can learn this trade as well.

[oldslowchevy]

my last post was for ECS and any one else who thinks like him