Code violations or Inproper wiring...

[Polar Sparky 1224]

I want to see what kind of trouble people have run into when doing remodel work. And nicely discuss the solutions.

At my in laws home someone had connected the neutrals wrong on a gfci. I went testing their small appliance circuits and found the gfci didn't trip. After finding the hot wire coming in from the panel It was a quick fix. I haven't seen any other problems since but I'm still having fun relabeling their panel. The people that redid the wiring didn't take the time to label anything.

[TOD]

I don't know if this is a code violation or not. I did a remodel in my kitchen and found this. The light that was mounted over the kitchen sink was done like this. The romex just came out of the wall inside the cabinet and a hole was drilled in the bottom of the cabinet for the romex to pass through. The light fixture was a round incandescent ceiling type. It was just wire nutted to the romex and secured to the cabinet with wood screws, no box at all.

[wbrooks]

My neighbour called me over one night because he could not figure out why his washer would not work. Since he is not usually stupid I figured a breaker went bad so I brought a spare with me. After finding that all the breakers were hot I noticed a marret inside the panel - strange, panel was full so the guy tied two feeds to one breaker. A couple of marrets tucked up in the ceiling caught my eye, tugged on the wire and the basement lights went off:eek: . Went back home and got a junction box and my electrical kit. I fixed the rats nest above the panel and dropped in a duplex breaker to fix the marret inside the panel problem. Now that we have light again the fun began :rolleyes: ,went to the washer plug and worked my way back. They fed the washer by cutting it into one of the lines that just happened to be running through the furnace room and did the same marretts in mid air trick like above the panel, this time the marrett only caught 2 of the 3 hot wires, the third (washer feed) was only making contact because the grounds were twisted tight keeping the wires close.
Now this is a partially finished basement likely done by the same donkey that did this wiring so we started poking around and to keep this short found .... 3 more marretts only junctions, decided to pull it all down and found 6 more buried (guy used all short scraps for a basement plug run), wire run thru metal studs with no grommets. I pulled it all out and redid the entire basement including a home run for the washer.

Got time for another story???

I rented a basement apartment just after I got married. After living there for a week the landlord (lived upstairs) had asked me to reset the same breaker 3 times, I asked him what he was doing and he said that sometimes when he is using his treadmill his wife turns on the iron in another room and the breaker pops. Seems reasonable, left the breaker off went upstairs and found a live plug in the ironing room so she just switched plugs, I figured problem solved. About a week later he comes down and says that when he is using the treadmill the lights in his daughters room are flickering :confused: :confused: . Went upstairs and asked him to get on the treadmill, I was in the daughters room and sure enough the lights start to flicker and dim almost to the beat of his steps and now the breaker pops and I can smell arcing but only in the daughters room. I pulled the plug and it was badly charred. Long story short, the house was all aluminum wiring and none of the plugs or switches were aluminum grade. I replaced every plug, switch and marrett in the house. It was electric heat as well and there was no corrosion inhibitor used on ANY joints. I would say that about 50% of the plugs showed signs of arcing and some of the heaters were so bad that the insulation had charred almost 2" back from the Marietta. This house was a fire waiting to happen.

[Bob D.]

Here's one I found when I moved into an existing home some years ago.

We kept having trouble with the dedicated outlet for the washing machine in the laundry room. The breaker would trip or the washing machine would show a fault code on the display.

Checked the wiring at the outlet and it was wired correctly. I thought maybe the outlet itself might be at fault and replaced it. At the time the breaker (and house for that matter) was 8 years old, so I didn't suspect that it might be the culprit. The washer and dryer were new and under warranty so we called CS and they sent someone out. I explained the breaker tripping occasionally and the error codes, and that is I unplugged the machine from the outlet and plugged it in later it would work with no error code or breaker trip. After a few loads of laundry it would trip or the machine would quit and show the error code for an electrical fault.

The appliance tech replaced the control boards in the machine, that was his answer to the problem because after the machine being unplugged for a couple hours while he worked and then plugged it in the machine worked OK (or at least long enough for him to get out the door).

At the same time all this was happening, remember this is our first week in this house, I was experiencing a buzzing noise on my scanner in the VHF band. It was a pulsed buzz but not at regular intervals.

So now it is two weeks into the move to the new place and we want to hook up a chest freezer in the basement so I decide to add a dedicated circuit for the freezer. I don't want something else on the circuit to trip the breaker and my freezer food go bad.

When I open the panel to drop another breaker in I look over the ground and neutral bars for a spot to land my wires and I found the problem with the washing machine circuit. The #12 neutral for the washing machine outlet and a #14 neutral were clamped under the same screw on the neutral bar. The screw was only in contact with the larger diameter wire, the #14 wire was only held in place by pressure that was applied by the adjacent #12 wire. I suspect that this was the cause of the problem because when I moved the #14 wire to its own spot on the bar the buzzing stopped and the fault errors and breaker tripping for the washing machine also ended.


New question:

Why are there 2 wire and 3 wire 230V submersible well pumps, and what happens in the control box that the 3 wire pumps use? Also, what is the proper way to wire a 2 wire pump? Given the mess that I found above, I am curious if there are other problems with the wiring here.

I have a 2-wire 230V pump in my house. There is a service disconnect switch mounted in the basement at the point the water line enters the house and the power goes out to the pump. In that disconnect both hot leads and the neutral are switched. Coming out of the 3 pole disconnect switch the neutral is tied to the bare ground and both are bonded to the metal switch case, the ground wire continues out unbroken to the pump.

My question is, is this the correct way to wire this type of pump? It has worked OK for all the years we have been here, but that doesn't mean its wired correctly.

[PLUMBER RICK]

years back i was remodeling my house. when i went to shut off the microwave breaker, it was still live. i suspected that the idiot who did the original installation tied 2 breaker together. i was right. to top that he ran romex inside of flex. that was a good thing. this allowed me to pull out the junk and rewire it correctly. in the process i added 7 more circuts to the kitchen.

rick.

[Lorax]

I aint no 'lectrician so I don't mind askin a stoopit question.:o WTH is a MARRET??:confused: :confused:

[steelewoodworker]

...couple of marrets

Hey Wayne,

Merriam-Webster and I have never heard of a marret. What is it? :o


Jerry

(Well, as hard as it is to believe, I didnt see Lorax's question. Had this page left over from yesterday.)

[PLUMBER RICK]

this makes 3 of us.

maybe it's the same as a widgit:D

rick

[HVAC HAWK]

now I'm the 4 th

or maybe it's a whatchamacallit ?:confused: :rolleyes:

[Lorax]

this makes 3 of us.

maybe it's the same as a widgit:D

rick

Found it! It's a henway!

[ToUtahNow]

A wire nut is sometimes called a marret. I believe it's a Canadian thing :)

[JimDon]

Hey there Lorax,
It's How Much Does A Henway? OK? Get it right or MD Master Sparky will report you for farming without a license or certification! LOL.
And just for your information, a henways usually less than about five pounds cause they're kind of little.
Jim D.

[Lorax]

Hey there Lorax,
It's How Much Does A Henway? OK? Get it right or MD Master Sparky will report you for farming without a license or certification! LOL.
And just for your information, a henways usually less than about five pounds cause they're kind of little.
Jim D.
Hey there BillyBob!:p You were supposed to ask:"What's a henway"? To which I would answer "Oh about 5 lbs." Try to keep your lines straight next time, OK? Or I'll have to find a new straight man.:p

[Rocky Mountain Sparky]

The #12 neutral for the washing machine outlet and a #14 neutral were clamped under the same screw on the neutral bar. The screw was only in contact with the larger diameter wire, the #14 wire was only held in place by pressure that was applied by the adjacent #12 wire.
Good job on the keen eye! You just taught me another good reason that neutrals are required to have their own screw for each conductor. Thanks for passing that story along! :)

If you want to hear other reasons (aside from "code requires it"), ask.

Why are there 2 wire and 3 wire 230V submersible well pumps, and what happens in the control box that the 3 wire pumps use?
Motors are hard to start. To make it easier on the motor, some motors have a start winding that gets things moving, and then let the main portion of the motor take over. So the third wire is the start winding.

In that disconnect both hot leads and the neutral are switched.
This is legal, if the neutrals and the hots are disconnected simultaneously.

But I am confused why there is a neutral pulled to the well pump at all. If it's 230V (as they normally are) a neutral would be unused.

Coming out of the 3 pole disconnect switch the neutral is tied to the bare ground and both are bonded to the metal switch case, the ground wire continues out unbroken to the pump.
Does the circuit feeding this disconnect have a grounding conductor?
What do you mean by unbroken? Where does it come from, where does it go?

It is illegal to use the neutral for "bonding" equipment after the service (as in, from the power company (POCO)) disconnect. If a grounding conductor was pulled with the circuit conductors (as it sounds from your description), then it should be connected to the housing of the pump-disconnect, and to the grounding conductor running out to the well pump.

There should be no connection between the neutral and grounding conductors after the POCO disconnect.

Before you correct this:
Shut off the circuit.
Verify it is off with a non-contact voltage tester, and/or a meter. Test between all conductors. Assume everything is still hot until you test everything. This installation has been hacked together, so anything is possible. Be careful!
Seperate the grounds and the neutrals in the pump disconnect. Take note of how everything was connected when you started.
Set your meter to test for continuity. Touch the test leads together to be sure it's set right. (When you touch them together, an audible tester will 'ring'.)
Test for continuity between the neutral the the ground coming from the panel. It should ring, telling you that the neutrals and grounds are tied together at the POCO disconnect, as they should be.
If there is no continuity between the neutral and ground coming from the panel, there is a problem. That would explain why this came about in the first place. I'd recommend making observations, putting it back exactly as it was, and get more advice.

[Bob D.]

RMSparky, thanks for the reply and explanation.

" This is legal, if the neutrals and the hots are disconnected simultaneously. "

It's a 3 pole service disconnect switch; so yes, they are switched simultaneously. My understanding was that service disconnects opened ALL conductors (except ground) to a piece of equipment, is that not correct?

you also asked:

Does the circuit feeding this disconnect have a grounding conductor?
What do you mean by unbroken? Where does it come from, where does it go?

1. Yes, this service disconnect is fed from a 10-3 cable w/ground, so all conductors (2 hot leads and a neutral plus a ground wire) are carried out from the main panel to the disconnect.

2. By unbroken I mean not switched, with no possibility of interruption or disrupting the ground's continuity.

" Shut off the circuit. Verify it is off with a non-contact voltage tester, and/or a meter. Test between all conductors. "

I do a Live-Dead-Live check of my Fluke right before I use it to check for the presence of voltage on a circuit, then again afterwords to verify it is still working correctly. If I am taking two, three, or more measurements, then I would check the meter on a known live circuit before and after, not before/after each check. Takes a couple more seconds but I am still alive to tell about it. :) This is what electricians (which I am not) at work are required to do, and I see no reason to not protect myself as well as they do.

" If a grounding conductor was pulled with the circuit conductors (as it sounds from your description), then it should be connected to the housing of the pump-disconnect, and to the grounding conductor running out to the well pump. "

Yes, there is a grounding conductor from the main panel.
Yes, it is tied to the disconnect box and then runs out to the pump. The bare ground wire is landed under a grounding screw in the disconnect box then continues on to tie to the neutral (coming off the load side of the switch) and the ground wire running out to the pump.

So this would seem to effectively tie the ground and the neutral together at a point other than the main, which is not the way it should be. Am I understanding this correctly or am I confused?

Since the neutral is not needed for this application, what should be done with it? Lift the neutral at the line side of the disconnect and also in the main panel, and abandon that individual wire in the cable? By abandon I mean to clip that wire short (back to the cable jacket maybe) and tape it off so it can not contact anything in the panel. Then it would not be possible for someone to use this wire in the future, which for this circuit would be good; yes/no?

I certainly don't want to have a new cable pulled between the panel and the pump location, as they are at opposite ends of the house(about a 110 foot run as the wire goes), and some areas of the basement have finished ceilings which would make it more difficult to do.

[Rocky Mountain Sparky]

My understanding was that service disconnects opened ALL conductors (except ground) to a piece of equipment, is that not correct?
It's legal, but not required. I'll put it this way: If it were required, then you'd see twice as many spaces used up in your panel. All the different circuit's neutrals would be required too. :D

Disconnects are required to disconnect all "ungrounded" conductors to an appliance. "Ungrounded" is what we commonly call "hot". Neutrals are grounded, so they are not included in that rule.
Yes, it is tied to the disconnect box and then runs out to the pump. The bare ground wire is landed under a grounding screw in the disconnect box then continues on to tie to the neutral (coming off the load side of the switch) and the ground wire running out to the pump.

So this would seem to effectively tie the ground and the neutral together at a point other than the main, which is not the way it should be. Am I understanding this correctly or am I confused?
You are understanding this correctly. Let's make sure I am:
The ground wire from the romex from the panel is connected to the box.
They did this by wrapping it around a screw in the back of the box, unbroken, and then left a tail after the screw.
This tail is wirenutted to the neutral from the switch.
The ground from the pump is in the same wirenut as the other ground and that neutral.
The neutral from the romex is landed on the line side of the switch.

Since the neutral is not needed for this application, what should be done with it?
After testing as outlined in my last post (to be absolutely sure about what each conductor is doing) then remove the neutral jumpering from the load side of the switch to the grounds. The line side neutral is fine where it is. It just needs to be terminated, be it under a screw or in a wirenut.

Generally, if a three-wire is pulled where only a two wire is needed, the installer will simply buy the required two-pole disconnect, and cut the neutral off 6" long, and put a wirenut on the end of it. All conductors entering a box are required to be at least 6" long, whether you use them or not. (And later on down the road, who knows, that neutral might come in handy. Better to have it than snip it off where it enters the box.)

[Bob D.]

You are understanding this correctly. Let's make sure I am:

The ground wire from the romex from the panel is connected to the box.
They did this by wrapping it around a screw in the back of the box, unbroken, and then left a tail after the screw.
This tail is wirenutted to the neutral from the switch.
The ground from the pump is in the same wirenut as the other ground and that neutral.
The neutral from the romex is landed on the line side of the switch.Yes to all the above.

And I understand the logic of leaving the unused neutral wire for possible future applications.

I have not performed your test as yet, maybe I will get some time tomorrow to look at it. Since it doesn't present any immediate hazard (at least you did not mention any that need correction ASAP), I think it can wait a bit.

[oldslowchevy]

this is way way to in depth for me and i admit it but i am learning alittle, but just to make sur is the ground and the neutral like this,the ground is tied to the back of the box with a screw then the tail of the ground goes to the neutral as just one wire?is that safe?i an no electrition and have never claimed to be but to me it just sounds odd but then again when my mecanic told me that my truck needed a fuel injector 7 years ago i just swaped intakes and put a 4 bbl carb on it just so i could understand what i was looking at when i opened the hood vs seeing a bout load of wires just me i guess,but it still dont sound right

[Rocky Mountain Sparky]

Bob, I wouldn't say it's "safe" but I don't see an immediate life-threatening issue. I'd put it to the top of your to-do list.

the ground is tied to the back of the box with a screw then the tail of the ground goes ...to the next point... as just one wire? Is that safe?
I played with your words a bit, for clarity. The fact they're connected to neutrals isn't safe, we've established that. If I'm reading you right, your point is as I've worded it above. My apologies in advance for putting words in your mouth. :D

Yes, it's safe, and a common practice. The only sticking point is, the wire needs to be 6" long before that screw. If that wire were to break, and the installer only had an inch between the entrance to the box, and that screw, the next guy would be cursing. Many of us sparkies don't realize that the 6" rule applies that way, but it's true.

A bonus to that method is it's quicker, and the fewer connections you have in a system, the fewer fail points; less resistance gained from connections, fewer connections to go bad.

[oldslowchevy]

it is still above my head and on this i think i would have to get a sparky to do that one

[wbrooks]

A wire nut is sometimes called a marret. I believe it's a Canadian thing :)

You got it. Here is the history of the Canadian invention - Marrette

At the turn of the twentieth century, a young Scotsman
named Bill P. Marr immigrated to Ontario, Canada. After
settling in the Toronto area, Marr was soon employed by the
T. Eaton Company as a contractor for Ontario Hydro, where
he worked as an electrician converting gas lit homes to
electrical incandescent lighting.
As part of this conversion, the accepted practice back then
was a process called " solder and tape" Typically, a mechanic
would first run the wires required, then an electrician would
polish the exposed conductors and twist them together. Next,
the ends of the wires would be firmly joined by dipping them in
a pot of molten solder, and after they cooled, the wires would
then be wrapped with an insulating tape.
Over time, this process proved to be both time consuming and
dangerous, as Bill Marr discovered first-hand when he
inadvertently spilled a scorching solder pot while working in a
customer’ home. Convinced that there had to be a safer and
more efficient way of joining two electrical conductors, Marr
worked tirelessly in his basement shop until he finally invented
the first pressure type wire connector (a set screw version which
was the forerunner to the modern day wire connector).
Since that day in 1914, the Marr® company has become a
leading manufacturer of twist-on wire connectors in North
America. The Marrette® brand has so revolutionized the way
branch circuits were connected that the term "marrette" has
become synonymous with " wire connector" in the electrician’s
vocabulary.
And since being acquired by T&B in 1997, this highly respected
Marrette® brand name has become an integral part of the vast
Thomas & Betts product offering to the construction market.

[FINER9998]

When remodelling a kitchen, I incorpoprated a small, unheated enclosed porch(3'x5') into the existing kitchen. When opening up the porch walls to insulate, i came across a buried "junction box". This "box" was a ring with four set screws @ 12, 3,6 & 9 o'clock which were used to hold armored cable within close proximity to each other so the wire encased in the cable could be twisted and taped with insulated tape. Now, every electrician I ever spoke to admonished against burying boxes ( and I will assume burying any connection). But this connection sat, undisturbed in a wall, from when the house was rewired from knob and tube (yes, there are a few insulators in the house from those days) to armored cable with absolutely no ill affects. And, judging from how this buried connection was made up, and looking at the other wiring in the house, it appears to be the work of the electrician who rewired the house with armored cable.

[ToUtahNow]

WBrooks,

Thanks for the history behind the name.

Mark

[NDMaster]

Bob D

If the well casing is steel, you must also bond the casing to the EGC.

[Rocky Mountain Sparky]

Now, every electrician I ever spoke to admonished against burying boxes ( and I will assume burying any connection).
Rightfully so: it's against code, it makes it more difficult to find in the event of a problem with the connections, it makes it impossible to detect a fire started inside the box until it has caused considerable damage.

It an unexcusable practice. Professional electricians need to set their bar higher than that.
But this connection sat, undisturbed in a wall, from when the house was rewired from knob and tube (yes, there are a few insulators in the house from those days) to armored cable with absolutely no ill affects.
A wiser man than I addressed this way of thinking very effectively:
I like to use the following analogy, whenever someone tells me, “It’s never been a problem before.” Suppose that just before you back your car out of the driveway each morning, you put on blinders and earmuffs. Suppose that you wait for a random amount of time, and then just back into the street. When you get into the street, you can take off the blinders and the earmuffs, and drive to work.

Question: If you do this ten days in a row, and if you don’t hit anything during those ten days, would you conclude that this is a safe driving habit? Or would it take 20 consecutive days without incident, to convince you it was safe? 30? How many? Everyone is welcome to steal this analogy shamelessly. But give me authorship credit, if you wish to use the following aphorism:
"An accident waiting for a place to happen will, given time, find that place.” - Charlie Beck

[papadan]

About 8 years ago I had my old furnace replaced and added central air at the same time.Last september I started to notice lights flickering when the air would kick on. I checked all the light circuits to make sure everything was tight and making good connection. I then checked the furnace and air unti and didn't notice anything out of the ordinary. I removed the cover from my panel again to recheck everything and this time I noticed that the romex for the central unit did not have a ground wire at all just 2 conductors connected to the breaker. I went outside to the central unit and rechecked the wiring there,(run under the copper return tube). Found that the installers had just clamped the ground wire from the Compressor to the return tube. Went into the basement and found the same connection from the furnace to the return tube but taped instead of clamped. I took pictures of this mess and delivered them to the HVAC company that did the install. They said that the "electrician" that did that was no longer emplyeed by them and they sent someone out to correct this mess. At first he only pulled a ground wire from the furnace out to the central unit and connected them together. he was packed and ready to walk out the door when I stopped him and showed him the panel. He didn't like it, but replaced that cable also. I have not had a problem with lights flickering since this repair was made.

[Bob D.]

Bob D

If the well casing is steel, you must also bond the casing to the EGC.

No, its a 4" Sch 40 PVC casing.

[Polar Sparky 1224]

Just pulled this out of a house the other day.
175
How does a person or thing manage to do this???!!!

In this same house we had to spend 3 hours to find out that the framer had screwed up half the house. He had decided to add some lights for the owner or maybe he was the owner but he stole the neutral from a few circuits and made them switch legs. And he already had the sheet rock up so we couldn't see where the problem was. My boss and one journeyman stayed and fixed it after we were sent to finish another job.

[Polar Sparky 1224]

Found this in an office building in Bountiful....
265
Can you see at least 2 things wrong with this?


The mud ring is put in back wards when if you are going to do outlets like this you can get a metal cover for it or the kind that you can attach the yoke to the box. And it was exposed and needed to be ran in conduit but wasn't. When i removed this it was just handing from the wall with some thin wire. The people that had wired up these outlets had reversed the hot and neutral enough we had to open every box and correct all their mistakes.

[PhilG.]

I want to see what kind of trouble people have run into when doing remodel work. And nicely discuss the solutions.

At my in laws home someone had connected the neutrals wrong on a gfci. I went testing their small appliance circuits and found the gfci didn't trip. After finding the hot wire coming in from the panel It was a quick fix. I haven't seen any other problems since but I'm still having fun relabeling their panel. The people that redid the wiring didn't take the time to label anything.


PS,
I hope you are having fun re-labeling them! :D

I wish people would take pride in their work and do things right! (Like labeling the panel, preferably with a label printer) I'll try to have a good thought for you while you're having this much fun! Enjoy!

[Bob D.]

When I moved into my present home there was no breaker chart that described which breaker fed what. Don't have a tracer so I spent a couple hours using the kids (then age 10 and 12) as runners and we mapped out all the circuits. I then created a template in MS Excel of my 40 circuit panel and made a nice chart which now hangs inside the door. If I ever make a circuit change in the future it will be easy to revise the chart and post a new one.

[Polar Sparky 1224]

PS,
I hope you are having fun re-labeling them! :D

I wish people would take pride in their work and do things right! (Like labeling the panel, preferably with a label printer) I'll try to have a good thought for you while you're having this much fun! Enjoy!

I'll also be adding an outlet outside next to the AC's since the outlets inside are still two pronged and the only grounded outlets are in the kitchen. Then we can also get some outside lights to shine on the 8' table i made for them.:D

In my dads house we are still repairing (at his pace) all the problems. I've helped with plumbing/roof/phones/electrical/framing/...etc...

[SteveW]

Here's another couple for the "what were they thinking list":

When we bought our current house it had a mobile on the property. The main house is fed into a 200A panel; a 100A subfeed goes to a panel in the garage; and from there another 100A subfeed went to the mobile. Plus the previous owner had a couple of 40A circuits in the garage for his welder and compressor and who knows what else. Bad enough, but when someone ran the wires to the mobile they used two nice fat 6AWG? wires off the hot feeds but instead of a third wire of the same size for the neutral what did they use: a 12/2 romex cable with the three wires (black/white/bare) twisted together at each end. When I openned up the subpanel about 3 inches of the romex wire to the mobile was charred. Thankfully the mobile was long gone before I found that.

Another gem: I went to add an outlet to master bathroom as there wasn't one anywhere near the sink. Thought I'd tap into the line feeding the light above the vanity. So I open up the switch box and light box, and hmmm, where the heck is the white wire?? Seems some genius had used the bare ground as the neutral wire to the light. After several days of crawling around in the attic and cursing I finally figured out what they did and got everything rewired properly.

Cheers,

Steve