sewer replacement and camera rentals ??

[johnnytugs1]

hi i'm john and i'm new to this forum. i have a home in jackson, n.j.. i also have roots that cracked my clay sewer line. i have experience in different areas of plumbing. but never had to deal with the a sewer line that ran to the street. i have chopped many basement floors and installed drains and wastes for toilets, showers etc. so i need to replace my sewer line due to a crack that is letting roots and i believe other debris into my line and of course backing it up. not trying to be a miser, i cannot afford to have this replaced $3600. so i'm considering doing it myself. i work on a tugboat in n.y. and i'm not home alot. had the drain snaked twice @ $280. first time last year and then again last week.of course i wasn't home and wifey was panicing. after last weeks snaking it clogged again in 2 days the man came back again and snaked it on the "house" said he could snake it and use the camera for 275. well that budget is gone so he just gave us another poke thru and it's been fine for a week now. so when i get home, god willing it hold out till then. i plan on digging up the yard and replacing the clay with cast iron.
1. any suggestions on where i may be able to rent a camera to check it out before i do this.
2. any suggestions on the process would be greatly appreciated.
i bartered with the tree guy to cut down the 70'+ pine whose roots are going in right along side the sewer pipe . i'll be installing his new wood stove and chimmney when he gets it.
3. is it ok to just replace from the house to the sidewalk or should i go to the street? does the city have to dig up the street or do i?
like i said this is a new endeavor for me. i called the township and they said it was ok to replace it myself . just get permits and inspections.
any help /suggestions will be greatly appreciated thanks in advance.
john
sorry about the long post i just wanted to incude enough information.

[ToUtahNow]

If you are going to replace the sewer any ways I would not bother with a camera. Knowing where the crack are won't matter to you if you are going to replace the sewer. I don't think I would use Cast Iron if plastic is allowed though.

I would check with the City to find out where your pipe stops and theirs starts. In many Cities the City owns the pipe in the street and you only own to the curb. They should also be able to tell you how deep the sewer is. Those are all things you need to know before you start with a shovel.

Good luck - Mark

[PLUMBER RICK]

mark, on this one we are at opposite ends.

anytime you are going to spend thousands for a sewer, i would camera the line first. i would be 95% sure that a simple camera and location would tell you where to fix the pipe. chances (95%) are that the line is bad in 1 spot maybe 2. the rest of it is probably fine. a camera will be able to assess this and give you an exact location and depth. much easier than digging out all the way to the street and you only have a bad 2' section.

out here in los angeles, you have to be a licensed and bonded sewer contractor to dig on the public right of way. that would be the sidewalk, parkway, curb and street. much more than the $3500. you noted. also the dirt has to be hauled away and the ditch filled with slurry.

once again a camera would determine if anything of this nature would need to be done.

i also find that by using a camera, i can snake the line much more thorough and be able to see a before and after condition of the pipe. this will document it for future cleanings too.

out of the several hundred jobs that i've done like mentioned, only a few needed to be replaced. every sewer has roots:eek: not every sewer needs to be replaced.

spend the money on a camera and save yourself alot of money on the sewer.:D

[ToUtahNow]

No problem Rick I am Okay with you being wrong on occassion. ;)

johnnytugs1 wants to replace the sewer by himself. He has an older clay sewer which is pretty old if there is a 70'+ pine tree already. For the money he has spent on two drain cleanings and a little bit of sweat he could have a new sewer. Now had he said he was going to pay $3,600 to have his sewer replaced I would have agreed with you.

Mark

[johnnytugs1]

thank you guys, i'll take all the suggestions you can throw at me.
john

[johnnytugs1]

i have heard about cleanouts in other posts , are they outside the house? i have a cleanout "y" in the back of my basement just above the floor. when i'm digging should i be careful of another outside the house ?between the house and the street? i'm trying to get as much info as i can, so i can get a plan together. before i get home. which will be on the 22nd. hopefully my wife will already have the permit and after 1 days rest and a few cold ones i can go at it the next day. thanks again for any help.
john

[PLUMBER RICK]

john, how deep and how long of a trench are you digging:confused:.

this might take more than a days rest and a few cold ones:eek:

my suggestion is to spend the money to get it properly camered and located. you might be surprised at how little you need to repair. also it might be in the street and not sure if you can work out there as a homeowner.

spend the money and get it camered.

never let it be said i didn't warn you:D

good luck, rick.

[AZPlumber]

I'm with Rick on this one. Camera'ing is NEVER a bad idea, especially when you are considering the type of work you are contemplating. But unless you are experienced with sewer cams and locators, I would spend a few extra bucks and have a pro come out and do it for you. They will even make a tape for you to keep of the video, they know what they are looking for, and they know how transponders work if you only need a section of the pipe replaced. And, they know how to avoid getting the camera snagged in the line, a very real risk when dealing with broken/cracked or heavily rooted lines.....and if THEY wreck that cable, it's on them. If you destroy or lose a rented video line, you will pay dearly, they are NOT cheap to replace or repair, and the rental place will most likely demand you replace it anyway.

[ToUtahNow]

A couple of caveats here to a DIY project. Because you have a basement and your sewer is below the basement you are likely to end up with a fairly deep sewer. If your sewer is deeper than 5’ deep I would consider having a Contractor do the job. In addition before you do any work you need to call a dig alert company to identify and buried utility lines which may be in the area of the sewer. Once you get that information maybe you can repost here with the depth and the length of your sewer. That information would make it a lot easier to give you any advice.

Mark

[johnnytugs1]

thanks again gentleman, as much as i'd like to, the camera / operator isn't in the budget but i'm going to replace the whole line because it's clay and i don't want to have to worry about it anymore.the trench will be approximately 45-50'
long approx. 7' from dirt to bottom of my basement floor. once again i'm on a boat and won't be home till the 22nd to get the specifics unless my dear wife goes down to the township and gets the info for me.if that happens i will let you know a.s.a.p. if i remember correctly all the cut in's i did
had the sewer line about 12-18" in the basement floor. so i'll assume it will pan out like this.
1. the first 15-20' off the house will be about 8' deep then it slopes down. to the side walk where it would be 5-6" deep.
2. dig alert has marked the property and the tree came down on tues. morning.
now back to the cleanouts, whats up with them? i'm getting the back hoe from my bro in law to be and i'll probably get my other bro-in-laws bobcat to help clear the piled up dirt away from the trench i imagine i'd have to make the trench 4' wide or so, so the dirt and stuff doesn't cave in around it .how am i doing so far? how long are the new lengths of pipe? i plan on setting the pipe on a small patio block where it is coupled together. i have heard that the city's pipe may come as close as 8' in from the street. any truth to that? if it is true that will be sweettttttttt :D
my side walk inboard side is about 6' from the street. after i open up the trench i can always cut out a section of side walk to get the pipe to the street also i can run a hose into the street side of the pipe with a hose to ck for flow problems. ok gotta move a barge good day to all and thanks
john

[PLUMBER RICK]

john, you never mentioned a backhoe or bobcat before:eek:

this makes a days rest and a few cold ones a little more realistic:D

a cleanout is a tee, (combination wye and 45) that is connected to the pipe and the tee, riser is brought up to the surface for future drain cleaning access. best loction is at the outside of the house just out from the basement and at the farthest location on your property. that is just before the sidewalk.

you need to put the system on a test anyways and the c/o without a riser is a good spot to put in a test plug or weenie:D

are you allowed to go into the public right of way? that is sidewalk and street?

rick.

[ToUtahNow]

There is real no reason to worry about other cleanouts as you are not really hurting anything if you break them. If you do break one be careful to hand dig around it so you don't get dirt into the sewer. At 6'+ deep you either need to shore the ditch or have your ditch walls dug at a 45 so to prevent a cave in. You really need to talk to the Township to find out where your pipe ends. For instance in some communities the home owner’s pipe ends at the side walk and the community is responsible for the rest.

Cast iron comes in 10’ lengths while ABS and PVC come in 20’ lengths. If you wanted to add an outside clean out to your line this would be the time. You may even want to consider a two way clean out at the street if you have an RV.

Mark

[johnnytugs1]

ok talked to the township, they said it should come 2' from the asphalt towards my propertry with a clean out there and a clean out 3' from my house (never saw either one , must be covered). they also say that it could be anywhere from 4-15' deep. thats tricky. they said my pipe may be clay or a cardboard composite(are they poo-pooin me) anyway i have to call and request that 800-dig put in another request to mark the sewer line. they will contact the township to mark the sewer line.utah thanks for the clean out info i wish i needed one for an r/v,;) but thats a great idea.
plummer rick when u say put the system on a test what does that mean? and ummm weenie? thats pretty much what my wife said when i told her i'd do it myself. her answer to it all is just charge it!!!!!!!:mad: well i'm up here in upstate n.y. on the hudson river and it is a beautiful scenic thingy going on. boy a cold one and this scenery i could be very happy. "NOT".13 more days, another successful fuel transfer and back to the city. thanks again for all yer help.
john

[ToUtahNow]

The cardboard pipe is called Orangeberg and is basically a tar paper pipe. The test they rewfer to is a water test where you install a plug in the sewer at the end of your line and a plug at the start (both cleanouts which you mentioned are in your yard0 and fill the system up with a 10' head on it (some use a 6' head). If your sewer is 14' deep I would leave it to a Sewer Contractor. The fact that the Township gave you such a varied deepth you may want to do a camera and locate just to be on the safe side.

Mark

[ToUtahNow]

BTW: Dig Alert will be looking for utillities not your sewer.

[PLUMBER RICK]

plummer rick when u say put the system on a test what does that mean? and ummm weenie?
john

looked at your photo. it doesn't look like that far of a run. we as plumbing contractors, can't get into the sidewalk or beyond. it takes a sewer contractor out here to do that.

as far as a test goes, mark answered it. but usually outside piping doesn't need the 10' head. typically just fill it up to the top of the c/o is ok.
a weenie:eek: is an inflatable plug that goes into the top of the tee or wye and you push it into the main and inflate to block off the water from going into the piping downstream or out the c/o tee. it has a chain and ring on it so when you let the air out, you don't lose your weenie:D


rick.

mark, your now on the fence with the camera. i knew you would come around 1 day:D

[ToUtahNow]

mark, your now on the fence with the camera. i knew you would come around 1 day:D

Yeah at 14 feet I think "Sports Digging" is a little much.

Mark

[franklie]

you need to put the system on a test anyways and the c/o without a riser is a good spot to put in a test plug or weenie:D

When I was an apprentice my journeyman taught that the term was baloney for the test plug that we inserted into the waste line to block it for the hydro test.

baloney, weenie, test plug sausage, it's interesting how different terms have developed for the same object...

[johnnytugs1]

800 dig is going to call the sewer dept.and have them mark out where the sewer is. i'm gonna call the plumbing inspector again to firm up the depth of this beast. worst case scenerio if i find the cleanouts i can run a tape or measure a snake to the bottom, no? this should tell me how deep it is? if i can find both cleanouts i should be set then right? ok so now what are these 10' & 6' head and where do i find a weenie? thanks for your patience.
john

[ToUtahNow]

Head is just the weight of the water above your sewer line. You will probably just need to add some wyes to insert the test plugs and then fill the cleanout riser at the street. If you check with the building department they may not even require a test on 40' of pipe.

The test plugs are available as inflatable (weenie) or mechanical. Often rental yards have them available for rent. Here are some links:

http://pipeplug.com/longplugs.htm

http://pipeplug.com/1b.htm

Mark

[ToUtahNow]

By the way if you inflate a inflatable 4" double test plug outside of the pipe it will get about 20" round and 3' long. If you stick with it long enough by driving over it with a 1-ton Rough-in truck it will eventually explode. But that was 25-years ago and another story.

Mark

[HelenaPlumber]

My municipality (Birmingham, AL) requires min. 4" ductile iron for residential sewer repairs (test tees, 8ths, 16ths, etc. get expensive) with mechanical joints, with a 10 foot head test regardless of lentgh of replacement. I'm only mentioning this because there are EXTREME differences in code requirements as you travel accross the country. While your practical advise in areas such as cameras, cleanouts and pipe types are right on the money, statements such as " you shouldn't need 10" head test for outside pipe (sic.)" from LA plumber probably won't help NY sewer guy. The practical reality is that he's looking at a job that is too much for even a hard-nosed weekend warrior. According to OSHA, trench shoring is mandatory when digging over 4 feet.(unless sloped, or type A - stable soil) To gloss over the need for shoring for a trench of potentially 14 feet with barely a mention is reckless. We've all read or felt personally the newspaper stories that careless disregard for trench shoring will result in. This man needs advise on how to proceed. For his sake, the only advise that I feel comfortable offering is to get 3-5 qualified estimates and have the job professionally done. I'm surprised that two respected and knowledgeable plumbers such as yourselves haven't grabbed this guy by the shoulders, looked him square in the eye, and asked him if he's seriously considering digging, entering and working in a potentially 14 foot deep trench! I've worked in deeper trenches than that with all appropriate safety equipment and training, and I still would rather have oral surgery. Even with ventilation equipment, shoring, ladders and lanyard/harness, it feels like I'm on the moon. Please, please guys I say this with all respect....give 'em what they need, not what they want. HIRE A PROFESSIONAL!

[ToUtahNow]

My municipality (Birmingham, AL) requires min. 4" ductile iron for residential sewer repairs (test tees, 8ths, 16ths, etc. get expensive) with mechanical joints, with a 10 foot head test regardless of lentgh of replacement. I'm only mentioning this because there are EXTREME differences in code requirements as you travel accross the country. While your practical advise in areas such as cameras, cleanouts and pipe types are right on the money, statements such as " you shouldn't need 10" head test for outside pipe (sic.)" from LA plumber probably won't help NY sewer guy. The practical reality is that he's looking at a job that is too much for even a hard-nosed weekend warrior. According to OSHA, trench shoring is mandatory when digging over 4 feet.(unless sloped, or type A - stable soil) To gloss over the need for shoring for a trench of potentially 14 feet with barely a mention is reckless. We've all read or felt personally the newspaper stories that careless disregard for trench shoring will result in. This man needs advise on how to proceed. For his sake, the only advise that I feel comfortable offering is to get 3-5 qualified estimates and have the job professionally done. I'm surprised that two respected and knowledgeable plumbers such as yourselves haven't grabbed this guy by the shoulders, looked him square in the eye, and asked him if he's seriously considering digging, entering and working in a potentially 14 foot deep trench! I've worked in deeper trenches than that with all appropriate safety equipment and training, and I still would rather have oral surgery. Even with ventilation equipment, shoring, ladders and lanyard/harness, it feels like I'm on the moon. Please, please guys I say this with all respect....give 'em what they need, not what they want. HIRE A PROFESSIONAL!

Perhaps you missed my post where I told him if it was deeper than 5' he needed to hire a professional.

[HelenaPlumber]

AZ-
You mentioned it once, in your 4th post of 9 in this thread. Considering the gravity (or is it must my percieved gravity?), it is my belief that your and PlumberRick's comments should have certainly pointed NY's thoughts toward professional help. I'd rather err on the side of caution, maybe it's just me.
John

[ToUtahNow]

AZ-
You mentioned it once, in your 4th post of 9 in this thread. Considering the gravity (or is it must my percieved gravity?), it is my belief that your and PlumberRick's comments should have certainly pointed NY's thoughts toward professional help. I'd rather err on the side of caution, maybe it's just me.
John


I believe you are posting to me and not AZ. You might notice my first post recommends he find out from the City how deep his sewer is. My second post to him I recommend he find out from the City how deep it is so we could better advise him. In that same post I recommend he use a professional if the sewer is deeper than five foot deep. In my third post to him I told him he would need to use shoring or trench at a 45. In my forth post to him I told him to leave it to a sewer contractor (not a plumber) but you're right in my fifth post to him I did not warn him.

Mark

[PLUMBER RICK]

helenaplumber, it's very simple to sit back and critique any post. you're more than welcome to share your own personnal experiances with all. the difference is that both mark and i answered his questions that he posted. both of us were not too keen on him doing the job in the fisrt place. infact i stated on many occasions to use a camera to locate the problem and get a depth before digging up the whole system.
after a few more post he stated that his brother in law owns a backhoe. chances are his brother in law has more hands on digging knowledge than us. he only does that for a living. unless he doesn't care for his own family member, i would think that he will protect his brother in law along with his own butt.

rick.

[HelenaPlumber]

Okay, I submit. You guys are right. I'm wrong.

I guess I just read this thread all at once, and wasn't in the right context. I don't sit back and pick on folks just because I can. Rather than be defensive when receiving negative feedback, I'm going to try to be open minded and perhapse try to see anothers' point of view. It is my hope that others do the same.

Thanks.

John

[HelenaPlumber]

Okay, I submit. You guys are right. I'm wrong.

I guess I just read this thread all at once, and wasn't in the right context. I don't sit back and pick on folks just because I can. Rather than be defensive when receiving negative feedback, I'm going to try to be open minded and perhapse try to see anothers' point of view. It is my hope that others do the same.

Thanks.

John

[ToUtahNow]

Thanks and you are right, we do need to remember to do a better job at warning DIYers about the dangers which comes along with some repairs.

Mark

[gitnerdun]

8 ft deep!?!?:eek: Man, i'm glad I live in Fl. where a deep sewer is only 4 ft. :D

[AZPlumber]

8 ft deep!?!?:eek: Man, i'm glad I live in Fl. where a deep sewer is only 4 ft. :D

Sewer laterals here running out from the house to the street typically run around 10 to 12 feet deep, at a minimum. It's insanity for a Johnny homeowner to attempt it on his own unless he happens to be a proprietor of an excavation company.

[ECS]

AMEN Helena!!!! This is not a job for a HO!!!

I was making a list as I read and SHORING was on it. I guess I just missed it but I didn't think I saw anything about shoring until you mentioned it. This man could be killed if there is a cave in. It seems like about once a year there is a local report of someone dying in a ditch. Mr. homeowner, I bet your family thinks that you are worth more than $3600.00.

If you are bound and determined to conquer this though, here are a couple of other things you need to watch out for.

If you use the type of blow up plug that fits inside the barrel of the pipe for your test, when you depressurize the plug to drain the water, do not use your hand to do it or you could really mess up your hand. Use a coat hanger or other "tool" to operate the valve or better yet spend $5.00 for an extension so you can stay clear of the inside of the pipe.

Secondly, if you have clay pipe up to the point where your new sewer will terminate so that your new sewer will actually be connected to existing clay pipe (at the street for example), be very careful about how you cut that clay pipe if it is necessary. Around here clay pipe seems to have always come in about 4' sections but you will probably still have to cut some part of the last section even if it's just to remove the hub. The best tool I have found for this, personally, is a rescue saw with just a standard abrasive blade. You can also use, and many plumbers do, cast iron snap or chain cutters but if the pipe has any weakness or damage to it already, these cutters can destroy that section of piping. If this happens, now you are under the street and just spent a pile of money whether you like it or not (and if you try to tunnel under the edge of the street to get to the next section of pipe, which you will also have to cut, you are an utter fool!)

Finally, I'm not certain if we ever established the distance but for some reason I'm thinking it was around 70'. If this is the case (or even if it was much shorter) $3600.00 IS A STEAL!!! Pay the professional and take your wife on a picnic!!!!!!!!!

[johnnytugs1]

i have read all your posts , noted all concerns and listed all of the above. every detail i recieved i wrote down and included with my own commom sense and logic. i started the project on saturday 3-25-06. i had trouble finding the sewer due to the townships markings. but i pulled up the manholes on both sides of the street (left and right of my general sewer area )and measured the depth. it was 6'. my property slopes upward so it turns out it was about 7' deep at the street and about 11' at the house . i and 2 buddy's dug with a mini excavator all day and found it around 4 pm sat. finished digging by 6:30 pm sunday. monday morning cleaned around the area and removed old pipe then replaced with sch 40 pvc and 1 length of abs. also while looking for the sewer line found the water main .....twice,loll. got a lil muddy but no sweat. it was laid right on top of the sewer line. replaced the water main with brass connectors it was like 60 psi irrigation pipe so i replaced it with 100 psi .oh and 2 s/s hose clamps on each end. all went well and i couldn't get the bobcat till wed. so i backfilled wed and finished up by friday night. my soil is sandy so i had to get 24 yds of top soil and 2100 sq ft of sod finished with that on tuesday night 8 pm and went back to work on wed. to get some rest. get off on 4/29 and we'll see if mrs tugs is watering the new lawn as directed.thanks again for all your help and concerns. here are some pics of how it went.
John

[PLUMBER RICK]

john, looks very nice. what did it all cost? the rental cost, soil, sod, piping and help? total footage changed on your property and total in footage in the street?

don't think anyone would clean it up that nice.

rick.

[johnnytugs1]

thanks rick, it was an experience glad i could do it myself.otherwise it would have been a problem
500. 265. per day for mini excavator (2 days)
200. sewer & watermain material
250. 24 yds top soil
475. 2500 sq ft sod
100. fuel 150. beer (easily)
100. cold cuts
1,775.00 approximately give another 100. for additional beer. :D
oh yeah permit fee's don't remember, maybe 125.00
so 1900. and i got a new lawn.
total ft. replaced 40' approx , 2 cleanouts (7' and 11')
only had to replace from 2' from the stret to 5 ft off the house. the rest was cast iron on both sides.my pipe didn't have a root within 4-6' of it. the pipe had a hole in it seems that when he snaked it it hit some hard stuff and went thru which allowed the dirt and stuff to come in . also where the couplings connected were a little soft.i mean it needed to be replaced because it was 40 yrs old but if he didn't go thru it it would of lasted a bit longer. so what do ya think?
John

[PLUMBER RICK]

john, pretty cheap for all that work.

hope it is properly graded, lots of beer can make it look properly graded:eek:

remember my original suggestion was to camera the line. this would have located the hole and a simple repair could have been done. even posible to have done it without digging. an epoxy spot repair could have fixed this from a inside c/o.

just think of all the beer you could have saved:D

just think of all the beer money you could have for the future:D

looks like a very nice professional looking job. now you can be a sewer man like me:eek:.

don't worry, i get seasick very easily:eek:

rick.

[AZPlumber]

john, pretty cheap for all that work.

hope it is properly graded, lots of beer can make it look properly graded:eek:


LOL!! Indeed.

"Dangit Fred, hold that darn level STEADY, and put down the budweiser"

[ECS]

I have to say, just from looking at the pictures, everything looks pretty good, but WHO suggested that you make your water service connections (repair?/replacement?) with HOSECLAMPS!!!!!! YIKES!!!! And did you say 100# IRRIGATION PIPING!!!!:eek: I'm not exactly sure what that might be. Isn't your main pressure well above 100#, like maybe somewhere in the neighborhood of 160#, or do you have a prv installed at the meter? You mentioned a permit so I'm assuming that the inspector dropped by for a peek? Was he helping you out with the beer?

[ToUtahNow]

I wonder if he meant 100 mil irrigation pipe? That type of pipe is connected with hose clamps and barbed fittings.

Mark

[johnnytugs1]

sorry i haven't responded sooner. little to no signal at sea. anyway the water main is 60 psi. the pipe was rated at 100 psi and i replaced it with 160 psi pipe that required barbs and double hose clamps. i originally relaced them with plastic barbs then switched to brass, not required by code but better for mr. homeowner. and also used double stainless hose clamps wrapped in electrical tape. all in all it came out great .and mrs. tugs can do laundry again co life is good in tugsville.thanks again for all your help.
john : )
p.s grass is looking great and a few of my neighbors/passers by asked if i wanted to replace there mains ...............no thanks was my reply............got beer? good day to all!