Assistance please!

[DaveNay]

Today, I finished assembling my new TS3650 table saw. Obviously, I need to fine tune all the alignments. The most noticable problem is shown in the attached picture. When I took a couple of test rips, I get a lot of blade gouging on the finished cuts. I believe that the problem is with the splitter/blade guard, but a looked it over carefully, and it does not appear to be binding in the kerf.

Anyone willing to help me outwith some pointers? I am perfectly willing to accept that my problem is with my skills, and not a mechanical issue.

Thanks!
Dave

[VASandy]

Did you check to make sure the splitter is aligned properly all the way along? Mine was cocked just a tiny bit to one side. After several attempts to get it to be completely straight, I finally came up with a way to do it. It involves two long straight-edges laid along each side of the blade (and tight up to it), and about an hour of trying to tighten the two bolts and keep the darn thing STRAIGHT!!! You may want to make sure no one's watching you while you do this, especially any young ears!! As far as I can tell, it takes a Naval degree of cursing to get the thing to line up straight.

Just a thought of something to try. Other folks here will probably have better ideas! :)

[Lorax]

Hi and welcome.
That looks like some pretty gnarly wood you were cutting there. Did you have a straight, flat edge to run against the fence? If not, that's your problem. If yes, then probably the fence needs to be heeled out a little to keep the board from binding between the fence and back of the blade. Also you should use a featherboard to keep the stock tight against the fence (assuming you weren't). If you are using the original blade, you should upgrade, but even the stock blade cuts better than that.

Heeled out = The fence should be "cocked" to the right from front to back of the blade about .005"

OK BD, your turn:p

[DaveNay]

That looks like some pretty gnarly wood you were cutting there.

It is actually a length of 2x12 doug fir (actually measures 2") that I had laying around the farm shop. The blade is the stock blade. I will measure the blade/fence parallelism tomorrow. I did not use a feather board for the cur shown, just a push stick.

Thanks,
Dave

[Bob D.]

" ...a length of 2x12 doug fir (actually measures 2") that I had laying around the farm shop..."

Not a good test subject in my opinion. Did you at least eyeball this piece to see if it was reasonably straight? Anything that has been laying around on or near the floor in the typical shop environment is likely to have picked up some moisture from the concrete or dirt floor which could cause it to behave abnormally when cutting. They may also be some stress locked into the board which caused the condition you describe.

Also, it looks like you were ripping a 45 bevel on this board, is that true?

Last but not least, you state right off that you need to " fine tune all the alignments " , have/had you made any adjustments to align the blade, fence, and splitter yet, other than those performed during assembly?

[Reef12]

Did you check to make sure the splitter is aligned properly all the way along? Mine was cocked just a tiny bit to one side. After several attempts to get it to be completely straight, I finally came up with a way to do it. It involves two long straight-edges laid along each side of the blade (and tight up to it), and about an hour of trying to tighten the two bolts and keep the darn thing STRAIGHT!!! You may want to make sure no one's watching you while you do this, especially any young ears!! As far as I can tell, it takes a Naval degree of cursing to get the thing to line up straight.

Just a thought of something to try. Other folks here will probably have better ideas! :)


Good read their ROFLMAO

A Naval degree in cursing;)

It is a bear to line up I think I got real lucky and this is the only part that I did not need to well Curse at it:rolleyes:

The 2 side wings and back fence now that is a different ball game.

Good luck Dave Nay on the saw it is a good one once the tweaks are applied

[DaveNay]

Also, it looks like you were ripping a 45 bevel on this board, is that true?

Last but not least, you state right off that you need to " fine tune all the alignments " , have/had you made any adjustments to align the blade, fence, and splitter yet, other than those performed during assembly?

LOL...I guess this was my round-about method of asking what other adjustments need to be made? I have never owned a table saw for use on cabinetry...just an old cheap Craftsman contractor that I used to rip sheets of OSB and plywood.

Yes, the rip was at a 45 bevel, I was checking the accuracy of the bevel indicator as shipped to see if I needed to adjust it. (rip board at 45, asseble into right angle and check with machinists square).

Thanks for all the suggestions so far! I am going to check the fence again today, and try some other wood that I know is clean and dry.

Dave

[DaveNay]

It involves two long straight-edges laid along each side of the blade (and tight up to it), and about an hour of trying to tighten the two bolts and keep the darn thing STRAIGHT!!!

Hmmmm...this gives me an idea.....clamp a 2x4 on either side of the blade, and then clamp those to the splitter. Then tighten the two bolts.

Dave

[papadan]

Clamping like that will not solve the problem. The splitter is thin and will flex. once tight and the clamps removed it could be 10 degrees off square and ruined with a permanent twist to it.

[VLL]

Don't worry about the tilt degree indicator its just to get you close. Set a bevel square to the bevel you want using a protractor & use the bevel square to set your blade to the desired bevel.

Make sure your blade aligns up with your left miter slot & the fence lines up with the same slot & blade.

Technically both miter-slots should be aligned with each other but this is not always the case. The reason I suggested using the left miter slot is because it is the slot most often used with the miter gage.

[tg3k]

...Set a bevel square to the bevel you want using a protractor & use the bevel square to set your blade to the desired bevel.
...
Why transfer what could be a critical setting from one instrument (the protractor) to another (the bevel square) to another (the blade)? I use a 45° plastic drafting triangle directly on the (unplugged) saw blade. Cuts down on the potential to multiply a small error into a bigger one.

That said, I do agree with your advice about using the indicator on the saw itself as a rough guess, and not an absolute setting. Although, I guess it depends how accurate you want the joint to be. If you're building a planter for the patio it's probably not as critical as if you're building a fine hardwood jewelry box.

My $0.02 on the original poster's question is that your fence is not aligned correctly, and your push stick is still allowing the piece to move around in ways it's not supposed to. Featherboards or a good pushblock like the Grripper would be my suggestion (after tuning the saw). I get much better results with the Grripper and MJ splitter on my TS3650 than I ever did with the factory guard (a hazard IMHO) and a push stick.

[DaveNay]

I picked up a dial indicator today during lunch from Harbor Freight. After....uh, borrowing...some 3/4 x 3/8 aluminum stock from work, I rigged up a fixture for the saw. 20 minutes later, I have concluded that I have .005" TIR on my blade. As I mentioned before, this is the OEM Ridgid blade. My next step is going to be to unmount the blade and make sure there are no burrs or debris between the blade and the arbor shoulder (good time to check if I have the bum arbor too). After that, I am going to mount the new thin kerf blade I plan on buying tomorrow morning.

I didn't even bother to check the blade/miter slot/rip fence parallelism yet.

[Neptune13]

I don't recommend people do this, but my splitter is in the attic and it's the best place for it. I haven't used it since the day I took it off.

[VASandy]

I picked up a dial indicator today during lunch from Harbor Freight. After....uh, borrowing...some 3/4 x 3/8 aluminum stock from work, I rigged up a fixture for the saw. 20 minutes later, I have concluded that I have .005" TIR on my blade. As I mentioned before, this is the OEM Ridgid blade. My next step is going to be to unmount the blade and make sure there are no burrs or debris between the blade and the arbor shoulder (good time to check if I have the bum arbor too). After that, I am going to mount the new thin kerf blade I plan on buying tomorrow morning.

I didn't even bother to check the blade/miter slot/rip fence parallelism yet.


Sorry to interject the inevitable stupid question here......

what's "TIR" and how do I measure it?

[Lorax]

Sorry to interject the inevitable stupid question here......

what's "TIR" and how do I measure it?

TIR = Total Indicator Runout

If your readings go from -.003 to +.004 your TIR would be .007
If your readings go from 0 to -.020 your TIR would be .020 etc.

[DaveNay]

My new Forrest WWII blade came in the mail this week, and this morning I was able to find time to mount the blade. I went after the table with a rag and kerosene to clean the gunk off, and I also applied a coating of Johnsons wax. Double checked the blade/miter slot measurements. Parallel to less than .001". Runout on the blade is around .003 TIR. Fence is nearly parallel, about .003" wider after the blade.

Run a couple test cuts, and the finish is nearly as smooth as glass! HOORAY!!!

So why am I not happy?

Because when I loosened the factory blade, using the Ridgid supplied wrenches, the wrench on the arbor (left hand) was not a proper fit, and it rounded over a corner on the flats of the arbor! It left a nice (NOT!) long groove of shiny metal on hte corner.

Not happy at all that the provided tools are not the proper size for the flats and/or the arbor is such soft metal that it rounded over so easily.

[wwsmith]

Dave, I feel your pain on this one. I also had the same problem and have since used crescent wrenches for my blade changes so that I won't have to change out my arbor anytime soon by rounding it completely over! I asked about this over a year ago on this forum and no one seemed to have the same issue so I just chalked it up to something I did wrong!

WWS

[Lorax]

DaveNay and WWS
How tight did you tighten the old blade when you put it on?

[DaveNay]

DaveNay and WWS
How tight did you tighten the old blade when you put it on?

I didn't. This occured when removing the OEM blade.

[Bob D.]

I have the nice stamped steel crap wrenches that came with the saw. They are in like new condition because I only used them twice. I use an open end valve tappet wrench on the arbor side because it is thinner than a standard wrench, and I use a std open end wrench on the arbor nut.

You can find the 4 piece valve tappet wrench set at Sears for about $25, I believe they are available individually also. Also, they are guaranteed forever!

Craftsman 4 pc. Wrench Set, Tappet, SAE (http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?BV_UseBVCookie=Yes&vertical=TOOL&pid=00944189000&subcat=Wrenches)
Sears item #00944189000 Mfr. model #44189
4 pc. standard tappet set with tote. For limited clearance areas requiring a thin-head wrench. Adjust tappets on auto engines. Sizes 3/8 x 7/16, 1/2 x 9/16, 5/8 x 11/16, 3/4 x 7/8 in.

[wwsmith]

DaveNay and WWS
How tight did you tighten the old blade when you put it on?

I did not put my blade on. I had a buddy helping me assemble the saw and he did that step. :confused: I admit he may have gotten a bit strong with it, but I was concerned that it could happen again. That is why I changed to different wrenches and the Ridgid wrenches are taking up space in a land fill somewhere now.

Bob, thanks for the tip. I may have to go take a look, as the wrench I use on the arbor side is a pretty tight fit being as it is so big. :)

WWS

[VLL]

Why transfer what could be a critical setting from one instrument (the protractor) to another (the bevel square) to another (the blade)? I use a 45° plastic drafting triangle directly on the (unplugged) saw blade. Cuts down on the potential to multiply a small error into a bigger one.

That said, I do agree with your advice about using the indicator on the saw itself as a rough guess, and not an absolute setting. Although, I guess it depends how accurate you want the joint to be. If you're building a planter for the patio it's probably not as critical as if you're building a fine hardwood jewelry box.

My $0.02 on the original poster's question is that your fence is not aligned correctly, and your push stick is still allowing the piece to move around in ways it's not supposed to. Featherboards or a good pushblock like the Grripper would be my suggestion (after tuning the saw). I get much better results with the Grripper and MJ splitter on my TS3650 than I ever did with the factory guard (a hazard IMHO) and a push stick.

Answer
I was trying to cover all the bases.

But what if I want to cut a bevel at 22.5 degrees can I check to see if the blade is set at 22.5 degrees with a 45 degree triangle. As to setting the splitter I would rip a piece of 3/4" plywood long enough to go through the length of the splitter with enough to go completely to out in front of the blade a ways with about 6"-8" left uncut & keep trying & tweeking the splitter until the gauge board will slide easily by the blade & splitter with the saw shut off.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[Woussko]

Valve Tappet Wrenches

Sears-Craftsman can be bought individually through the Craftsman tool catalog or online, but the set is a much better deal. You can also buy the same wrenches under the K-D name at good auto parts stores. At industrial tool dealers you'll find them under Armstrong or Proto. There's just NO way I will pay the insane prices that Mac and Snap-on dealers running about in fancy trucks want for them.

By the way sometimes you'll see them on "FleaBay" but watch the shipping fees.

My 1 cent worth LOL

[skipsax]

I too had the problem with rolling over the edges on my arbor during the first blade change last year. I figured it was my own fault for "cranking" the blade on and then attempting to remove it.

More recently I just tighten the WWII and Freud 508 (805?) Stacked Dado just enough to be snug. This way I won't overtighten again.

I'll have to check out the Tappet Wrenches. What sizes do I actually need to perform blade changes?

[Woussko]

Skip

I wish I knew the right sizes but I don't own that model table saw. You can take a ruler and carefully measure the openings of the junky wrenches. I hope you don't need them in metric sizes. They are made, but you'll most likely be looking at Mac or Snap-on and they are big $$$. Maybe someone that owns that table saw knows the correct sizes and will post.

If your Sears doesn't have what you need, check around good (not the big chain) auto parts stores. Many of them sell or can get KD brand which is a good tool line and won't cost you an arm & leg. You can also check in your phone book under "Tools - Hand" and under Industrial Supplies.

http://www.kd-tools.com/65114128.htm (Their catalog info on tappet wrenches - KD Tools)

[VASandy]

I may just take the arbor nut down to Sears with me to make sure I get the proper wrench. The stamped steel things that came w/the saw are just not that great. Besides, I lost the wrench for my Dewalt router....I need to get something that'll be dedicated to that!! Would a tappet wrench work for that too? What's the difference between a tappet wrench and a standard wrench? Sorry for the dumb questions!

[djb]

Guess I lucked out - the stock blade wrenches have worked fine for me. I had the blade on and off a dozen times or more yesterday (making ZCIs) and never had a problem. :o

- djb

[Woussko]

Sandy and others

A tappet wrench has an open head that's thin. Normally they have about 10 inches end to end and some (most) are double ended. Some were made single ended. The idea is to have a thinner head than a regular open end wrench. Some tool companies call them THIN HEAD wrenches rather than tappet wrenches. This link will give you an idea about them.
http://www.mytoolstore.com/kd/kdspec24.html

Sandy
With your router, you may want another type of wrench. Are you needing the one to hold the spindle or the one for the collet nut, or both? Do you remember the opening sizes and about how think the heads were? A friend that has a big Milwaukee router found that he needed (2) 1-1/8" heavy head open end wrenches for it. The ones that came with it were made out of soft junk metal. I found him 2 good USA made ones. Try to give me the specs for what you would call the ideal wrenches and I'll see how close I can find for you. What model Dewalt router is it? I might be able to find out from Dewalt what sizes it needs. Sometimes for the collet nut & spindle, you may want some wild offsets depending on if it's in a table or not.

Maybe these pictures (not to scale) may help some. There are hand tools of about any type - design you would ever need. The hard part is finding just the right one for a given use.

[VASandy]

It's a DW621 plunge router. It has a push-in lock device for the lower spindle. Only requires one wrench (while you try to hold the router, and keep the plunger in) to loosen/tighten the collet. The question is....what size is that freakin thing?!?! It's bigger than 3/4" but not sure what it takes.

OK! Finally found it at ServiceNet...it's part #761289-00 22mm. I'll just get a Craftsman. ;)

[Woussko]

Sandy

Good idea and look over the different wrenches they have at Sears. Looks like you need a 22mm size as I'm sure you figured. Do take the nut along just to be 1000% sure.:) You can also look at tappet wrenches while there. In my pictures it's the long thin one.

[cadenz]

after a day of cutting laminate flooring my saw started kicking up a lot of dust from the rear of the blade. i found out later the trunion bolts were not tight enough. align blade to miter slot and make sure you tighten those bolts.

[VASandy]

after a day of cutting laminate flooring my saw started kicking up a lot of dust from the rear of the blade. i found out later the trunion bolts were not tight enough. align blade to miter slot and make sure you tighten those bolts.

Maybe you want to put that in the 3650 Assembly thread? Just an idea. A lot of people look there to resolve issues, even after the saw's put together. ;)

[cadenz]

will do! only reason i hesitated is bec i remember reading something about it in there. will chip in anyways!