ABS in Commercial Buildings

[plumbdog10]

In the California Plumbing Code is specifically prohibits ABS pipe from commercial buildings. In the past two years I have done building undergrounds in ABS in Orange, Riverside, and San Bernidino Counties. What is your opinion?

[PLUMBER RICK]

dog, i see nothing wrong with underground in commercial. i would prefer pvc sch. 40 over abs. the pipe is much truer and i don't like foam core. plus white pipe is much better for camera work.

truthfully, plastic pipe takes alot o real skill to properly assembly it. it takes few tools to work with it, but still a high skill level to install it properly. plus mistakes cost money. no hub is a quick fix to adjust.

with the exception of non virgin abs resins, abs has been pretty risk free.
no-hub on the other hand has been hit or miss with random splitting. i have seen way too many no hub splits compared to abs issues.

also abs is easy to clean and doesn't rust.

i see nothing wrong with it as long as it's properly installed and supported/ compacted.

i don't believe it should be a "union thing"

rick.

[Bob D.]

Rick wrote: "i see nothing wrong with it as long as it's properly installed and supported"

This can be the culprit with many CI installs. Just because its CI as opposed to plastic does not mean one can be lax with when following the guidelines for installation of supports. I'm not saying you are Rick, I am talking in general.

How many times have you gone into a site and found CI installed with one hanger every 10 feet; no supports on P-traps or risers; or poorly installed bands not fully torqued; or bands that are spanning gaps of an inch or more in pipe?

I think the main difference is that PVC or ABS will show the results of improperly installed supports right away, CI doesn't show up till it fails, and that is usually some time (days, weeks, months) later when it becomes a call-back or litigation issue.

[PLUMBER JAY]

I would have to say that i am suprised that ci is still used in construction today. i understand the fire issue but in my opion plastic pipe is a far superior product. But with that said i still enjoy doing a cast iron/copper rough in way more than a plastic rough in. I also don't really get( i understand) what the problem would be with our small amount of plastic pipe in a building. Yes it does burn toxic but doesn't all the carpet and furnature and any plastic thing in the building burn toxic aswell? even if they let us use pvc which will not support combustion. anyways i not pushing for change i like it the way it is.;)

[plumb crazy purple]

I only recall that an underground lateral has to be ci if it's 12" or less below ground.

[ToUtahNow]

Plastics are fine if properly installed. However I do not like it in commercial. One of the reasons most areas will not allow plastic in commercial is you never know who the next tenant will be. If you have a business office your fine but five years later when the new tenant is putting excessive amnounts of cleaning solutions down the drains you may have some problems.

I looked at a case a few years back where a school allowed ABS in the lab buildings because they were not putting anything down the drain which would hurt them. A few years later a new professor came in and changed a few experiments and it ruined all of the under slab plumbing. Guess who the school wanted to pay for the repairs?

Mark

[PLUMBER JAY]

Plastics are fine if properly installed.
Mark
this is true for every product i have ever installed. :p

I don't think that cast iron would have held up any better than the abs for acid drainage.(i think worse) that is why we use glass, brown line and other products for this.

[ToUtahNow]

this is true for every product i have ever installed. :p

I don't think that cast iron would have held up any better than the abs for acid drainage.(i think worse) that is why we use glass, brown line and other products for this.

On the school that is what was actually speced for the job but the school got a variance to use ABS saying they were not putting anything caustic down the drains. On other projects I have seen the commercial detergents have destroyed the ABS.

Mark

[djrenek1]

in san francisco it has to be all ci and copper dwv / you cant use plastic unless it is a single family / (single) story house
i've only worked with abs in the east bay area/ it is alot harder with work with that solvent bonds pretty damn quick if you dont get your fitting in the right position

[drtyhands]

University dorms in Camarillo,Albertsons in Bakersfield and Ventura,PVC in the ground.Needs a non combustible.... cast through the roof.

Fuseal in the school chemlab.Cast through the roof.

I can see now that it has been brought to my attention how the cleaning solvents can damage some plastics.

I like the amount of labor saved on plastic.

Only a plumber and a few others can appreciate a straight cast system hanging in a parking garage.

[JCsPlumbing]

Can't remember the height, but cast has to be used at certain heights. Plastics have to much expansion/contraction. Right?

J.C.

[drtyhands]

Can't remember the height, but cast has to be used at certain heights. Plastics have to much expansion/contraction. Right?

J.C.

General rule is no more than two floors above grade with plastic.Sometimes 3rd floor lofts are allowed to slip by in certain jurisdictions.

[gear junkie]

General rule is no more than two floors above grade with plastic.Sometimes 3rd floor lofts are allowed to slip by in certain jurisdictions.
Very interesting, does this fall under code or is it accepted under quality workmanship practices?

[PLUMBER RICK]

Very interesting, does this fall under code or is it accepted under quality workmanship practices?

code.

when i started in construction in 1981, we were allowed 3 stories plus loft.
when the 20' vertical rise was hit/ 2nd floor, we had to install an expansion joint on the risers, both waste and vent.

a couple of weeks ago a friend came in from out of town. he is a private investigator for insurance co's/ fire.

i asked him questions about fire and flame spread. what amazed me was he said it's tuff to get pvc pipe to catch fire:rolleyes:

so of course i tried. i took a piece of 3/4'' sch 40 pvc and tried first with a lighter. no luck. then a torch. lots of black smoke and some flame, bu t when i removed the torch, the flame went away. i didn't expect to see that. he explained that the pvc/ poly vinyl chloride. will not catch fire until you burn off the chloride:confused: but the smoke was bad.

didn't try abs.

out here abs is the approved plastic pipe for waste indoors. pvc is ok for outside sewers/ sdr35.

rick.

[westcoastplumber]

ABS is approved for sewer, outside of commercial buildings.

you can get a varience in some areas to use it in restaurants, like a local torrance del taco did.:)

[UA22PLumberdude]

10 story apartment building here,all plastic..foam core no less...amazing how differant things are,from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

[drtyhands]

10 story apartment building here,all plastic..foam core no less...amazing how differant things are,from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

Even through two hour envelopes:eek:

STONE AGE !!!

[bigPipe09]

Something that is starting to catch on in multi family buildings in my area is XFR PVC.... Supposedly it has a 1 hour burn rating, but I dont buy it.

[drtyhands]

Something that is starting to catch on in multi family buildings in my area is XFR PVC.... Supposedly it has a 1 hour burn rating, but I dont buy it.

I'll bet in ten years it or something similar will be the standard in commercial.Labor for N/H is considered too expensive.Union lobbiests are trying to hold out.First plastic fire sprinklers,next CPVC hot and cold and after that waste with DP's fire retardant product.

[winslow]

Plastics are fine if properly installed. However I do not like it in commercial. One of the reasons most areas will not allow plastic in commercial is you never know who the next tenant will be. If you have a business office your fine but five years later when the new tenant is putting excessive amnounts of cleaning solutions down the drains you may have some problems.

I looked at a case a few years back where a school allowed ABS in the lab buildings because they were not putting anything down the drain which would hurt them. A few years later a new professor came in and changed a few experiments and it ruined all of the under slab plumbing. Guess who the school wanted to pay for the repairs?

Mark

There should have been an intercepter on the line to filter out harmful chemicals (like in a photo lab). untreaated, harmful chemicals should never go down a drain line regardless of what material is used. Codes stick to CI under slab because it has a higher crush resistance.