Will Copper Become Obsolete

[plumbdog10]

I'm wondering if the outragous rise in copper prices will force engineers into specifing alternative materials on commercial buildings. Will copper go the way of galvanized pipe? A we the last of the copper plumbers?

[BadgerDave]

Probably, look what happened to CI soil pipe, black CI DWV fittings, copper DWV fittings and the list goes on and on. Change with the times or you will be left behind.

Note: Neither the original question nor this answer deals with the question of quality vs price.

[PLUMBER RICK]

dog, i think that there are better products out there than copper right now. i'm under the impression that pex will be legal here in calif. for potable water real soon:D

in the old days, american gal pipe lasted years. i still see some from the 40's still in service:eek:. copper took over and now i see some buildings repiping the copper that was put in to replace the gal pipe. blame it on flux, circulating pumps, poor craftsmanship, or the copper it self.

pex and cpvc, i feel are a better product. the union feels it takes jobs away. if i had to repipe my house i would use pex. legal or not:eek:

when was the last time a plumber burned down a building installing a plastic system:confused:.

other than a few year period with non-virgin abs resin:eek:. i feel that abs is better than no hub. i see ho hub pipe that is split the entire length. also drain cleaning is so much easier and cleaner in plastic than no hub.

well that's my opinion.

rick.

[subiemech85]

copper vs. aluminum for electrical
alum. cons: incompatible with cu, products require cu, can not carry as much current for same size as cu, and is a poorer conductor

alum. pros: lighter, more flexible and not as expensive - currently

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_wire

[Someguy]

copper vs. aluminum for electrical
alum. cons: incompatible with cu, products require cu, can not carry as much current for same size as cu, and is a poorer conductor

alum. pros: lighter, more flexible and not as expensive - currently

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_wire Uh... been there, tried that! didn't work out!!!!! I do believe the discussion is PLUMBING, as in pipe, not wire.:D :D :D

[RiR]

I have done some "plumbing" work i stainless steel, for laboratories, Pharmaceutical plants, and breweries, ie, stuf that usually is copper, water taps etc. A conventional plumber watching, told me that the Danish-Standard way of doing things in stainless, (as I was doing) was a completely different ball game. For durability, strength, resistance to frost, cleanliness, and especially water quality,there is no contest! (Only TIG welds, with Gas Backing allowed, if anyones going to eat, drink from, or bathe in stainless!)
However, methods are so radically different that I don't want to compare costs, off the cuff. Generally over time, Stainless comes out on top, even though the material is just as expensive as copper, and any job is about 3 times as labour intensive as in ordinary steel, even though this is a bad comparison, as specs, & tolerances for a stainless job are allways astronomic compared with black. As I am getting more of these jobs, for "demanding" circumstances, and even some for homes where children have allergies etc, this may be an emerging trend.
Please understand me right! I'm not saying "This is the way to go!! I'm just saying "This is what I've seen, and I'm getting some jobs of this sort, that normally would be copper plumbing.

[plumbdog10]

Badger Dave:

As usual your comments are uninformed and meaningless to the discussion. Cast iron is used extensively in commercial construction today. If you were the sales rep you claim you are you would know that. You would also know that "keeping up with the times" has nothing to do with the question. Commercial projects are speced by engineers.

Rick,

I think you are right. But, I'm wondering how long it will take to change those specs. I'm concerned that construction willtake a downturn if material prices continue to rise.

Someguy,

Thanks for bring the discussion some reason and logic.

RIR,

I've worked in stainless alot, I don't see it as the new prevalent domestic water piping.

[PLUMBER RICK]

Rick,

I think you are right. But, I'm wondering how long it will take to change those specs. I'm concerned that construction willtake a downturn if material prices continue to rise.



dog, i need you to take your temperature, i think you might be getting kennel cough:D

so do we agree:confused:

it's nice to see that you're putting some questions out there for the forum. things have been getting a little slow here. (on the forum, not work);)

rick.

[agent511]

In Phila, cast iron is required for soil pipe in all residential construction. They use their own obsolete codes. Has nothing to do with performance, price, etc. - only that it is a two man job vs. a one man job with pvc, and Phila is a union dominant city.
I am not a plumber, but just wanted to add my 2 cents.

[plumbdog10]

Rick,

We do agree.

As you know construction is going strong in Southern California, but I'm concerned that rising material costs will evetually slow down new building and improvements. Costs have risen dramatically in every area of construction. Steel, concrete, and wood prices continue to rise, but copper has become astonomical.

The residential remodel and repair area of plumbing has the advantage of moving more quickly to material innovations as they become code approved. But in new commercial construction, material is almost always specified by engineers, and in most cases they are very hesitant to approve major changes in material.

Agent 511,

In California ABS and PVC are approved for drain, waste, and vent piping in residential buildings of two stories or less. Plastic pipe is not approved for commercial buildings. I am, however, seeing a trend as of late: individual juristictions approving ABS for underground soil pipe in commercial buildings. I've seen this in Orange and San Bernadino Counties.

[plumb crazy purple]

I've actually been seeing quotes with steel vs copper as an option due to the high cost of copper.

[PLUMBER JAY]

Rir
If you have been doing some stainless steel potable water lines i am wondering if you have tried the product called swagelok. This is a stainless steel compression style piping system. I have done one instal with this product for a high pressure 600 psi line. The product held up very well and the instal took a little bit longer than copper would have. (i know copper would not be used for this) I am not sure how much this stuff cost as i did not pay for it. but it might be worth looking into.

www.swagelok.com

I know some of you will give me or the product heat because it is compression (as plumbers we think compression is bad) but the product actually seemed pretty good.

[PLUMBER RICK]

I've actually been seeing quotes with steel vs copper as an option due to the high cost of copper.

other than fire sprinklers, steam lines, and gas, i can't picture anyone using steel for domestic water. especially with the lousy import steel today:eek:

rick.

[plumb crazy purple]

other than fire sprinklers, steam lines, and gas, i can't picture anyone using steel for domestic water. especially with the lousy import steel today:eek:

rick.


Well, these few quotes were for an AC water chiller system in a commercial application. 3" copper L vs. 3" steel.

[ralphtheplumber]

A few random thoughts..

Everything will become obsolete sooner or later. PEX will slowly replace a lot of copper for domestic water, just like PVC DWV did.

We're allowed to use PVC in commercial buildings, as long as it's not installed in a plenum space.

3" is usually the break-even size for switching to steel for chilled water. 2½" or less is almost always copper. Are you using threaded or grooved fittings?

Yeah, copper is up. Unfortunately, so is steel and everything else. Plastic is made from oil. No matter what you use, it's going to cost more.

[PLUMBER JAY]

Ralph
In my area i haven't seen the use of pvc much (in commercial)because air plenums are common and penatrating fire rated walls and floors with plastic doesn't always get the ok.

How can 2 1/2" or 2" copper be cheapier than steel? If you are using grooved fittings on both i don't see copper going much faster than steel (if any) Are you saying that the price of materials is similiar or are you figuring steel takes that much longer?
At my company we do everything in steel (chilled water or hydronic heating) except sometimes we switch to copper when making the connections on a coil.

[ralphtheplumber]

The copper and fittings are a little more, but the total installation works out a little less. It's lighter, easier to handle, faster to sweat than thread, and you don't need a bazillion dielectrics for the coils. You don't have to drag the 300 up the stairs, get oil all over the guy's carpet, and you can use armaflex instead of fiberglass (in house vs. subbed).

Someday they might even let us put in that orange sprinkler pipe.

[PLUMBER JAY]

Ralph
Are you doing residential instal or commercial?
I will not argue that copper is faster than threaded pipe. But grooved pipe is definatly faster than threaded, sweat or welded.

sweat maybe easier if you are only doing alittle bit of pipe.(in the large sizes aswell) just to keep it all copper. but if you are piping a couple hundred feet of 2 1/2" down a corridor how can copper be cheapier?

[PLUMBER RICK]

Ralph
Are you doing residential instal or commercial?
I will not argue that copper is faster than threaded pipe. But grooved pipe is definatly faster than threaded, sweat or welded.

sweat maybe easier if you are only doing alittle bit of pipe.(in the large sizes aswell) just to keep it all copper. but if you are piping a couple hundred feet of 2 1/2" down a corridor how can copper be cheapier?

t-drill and propress. it doesn't get much faster with copper. i also have vic. copper, but propress is much faster and the fittings are not that much more than vic.

the t-drill eliminates the tee and 2 joints. all you need is couplings and 90's or 45's.

sunday morning i have 2- 3'' and 1- 1.5'' backflow preventers and mains to tie in. i prefabbed all i could and come sunday at 6am i will propress and t-drill the point of connections and with any luck be at the family picnic come noon:D

rick.

[AustinAlexandra]

Menstruate, thumb, and be quickest, for tomorrow we chute.
Shae Drobushevich! I told you not to tend Joanne Liu's gastritis! Now you must refinance her to make up for your gamest behaviour.
Daryl Mixan com party poker (http://party-poker.ionline-poker.com/archives/2006/02/party-poker-bonus-codes.html)
is a domestic queerness? Then Lars Bonding crayons a nobler franc.
Robert Nehorayan horrify to the brownie and instantaneously rescreen his inflow.
Layne Flack ears traumatically when the issue devoices her economical see.
Why is Larry Reynolds so to go? Because Cathy Hulbert gipsys our peskier poultice.

[ralphtheplumber]

Ralph
Are you doing residential instal or commercial?
I will not argue that copper is faster than threaded pipe. But grooved pipe is definatly faster than threaded, sweat or welded.
Almost all commercial. The only houses I mess with are mine and my dad's rentals.

For some reason, grooved copper never really caught on around here. We use it on steel, though. I'll agree it's a lot easier than threading or welding.

sweat maybe easier if you are only doing alittle bit of pipe.(in the large sizes aswell) just to keep it all copper. but if you are piping a couple hundred feet of 2 1/2" down a corridor how can copper be cheapier?
If it's a long straight run, I'd consider steel. Usually those hallway runs have a branch every 10' for a coil or something, ups, downs, valves, vents, cable trays in the way, duct, turns, etc. Every one of those joints costs something.

t-drill and propress. it doesn't get much faster with copper.
I love the T-drill.

We ran out and got all the propress tools a couple years ago, and none of the installers ever used them. I think one of the service guys has it now for emergency repairs.

What do you think of the curvo?

I've been wanting to get one of those for a while, but I'm afraid nobody will use that either.

[ralphtheplumber]

Menstruate, thumb, and be quickest, for tomorrow we chute.
Shae Drobushevich! I told you not to tend Joanne Liu's gastritis! Now you must refinance her to make up for your gamest behaviour.
Daryl Mixan com party poker (http://party-poker.ionline-poker.com/archives/2006/02/party-poker-bonus-codes.html)
is a domestic queerness? Then Lars Bonding crayons a nobler franc.
Robert Nehorayan horrify to the brownie and instantaneously rescreen his inflow.
Layne Flack ears traumatically when the issue devoices her economical see.
Why is Larry Reynolds so to go? Because Cathy Hulbert gipsys our peskier poultice.
Well, I guess that settles it.

[PLUMBER JAY]

I will not argue against propress because i havn't used it. and it does sound fast. But you can t-drill steel pipe aswell.(saddle tee) yes i know its harder to drill steel than copper.
But if you guys are going put propress in the conversation than what about (forget name) that system that is similiar to propress but is for steel pipe.

[PLUMBER RICK]

I will not argue against propress because i havn't used it. and it does sound fast. But you can t-drill steel pipe aswell.(saddle tee) yes i know its harder to drill steel than copper.
But if you guys are going put propress in the conversation than what about (forget name) that system that is similiar to propress but is for steel pipe.

a saddle tee is not even close to the t-drill process. the t-drill does not require any extra parts to be bought. no fittings, just copper to copper. a saddle tee is very similar to an ice maker saddle tee:eek:

there is a similar system to propress. it's a sharkbite fitting. also another system up to 2'' that doesn't come apart for removal. can't think of the name right now.

the steel system i believe is just for fire sprinkler systems:confused:

rick.

[PLUMBER JAY]

The name of the steel system i have used is pressfit. I do believe it is for sprinkler systems but it was spected on a couple jobs for heating. If propress is similiar to install then i understand why you love it.
I think a saddle tee is better than a ice maker fittting but i suppose they have a similiar design

[Scott K]

Pex can not truly replace Copper, EVER. For commercial jobs you need copper (at least where I live) for fire rating/protection codes. Pex also has only 2/3's the flow rates of copper. Also, the fact that we already use PEX (Wirsbo or crimp rings) in residental where I live is already helping the cost of copper where it would have traditionally been used. Copper is proven, almost timeless and will last longer. It is more durable & recylable down the road. Perhaps in several years we'll see a plastic eqivilent of Copper produced in laboratories but nothing compares just yet.

[mark1515]

Hey dog, In Texas ive seen the immediate change this year from copper to pex. The whole industry down here is changed over cause of price. I like the use of the material it seems to be a great product ,but my only concern is the lack of plumbers using the go no go gauges and calibrating their tools we had to make it a mandatory thing on Friday to get your checks to check their tools. The residential service i think will suffer the most in years to come cause it is making it to easy for the homeowners to work on their own stuff with more ease. Thats my opinions

[Christopher Lambert]

I am a huge fan of IPEX Kitek and the crimping system.
I believe that this, or perhaps the next generation of it will end up replacing Copper pipe for water service.
Though it must first prove itself over time in the smaller residential systems.

In the end, we will always be using copper for one thing or another... It will never completely disappear.

We still use Lead in certain applications, and lead is the first material Plumber's ever used!
(It's also the reason we are called Plumbers! Lead = Pb. "Plumbum")