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  • #16
    Well GoFer, you made my point. You did not care enough to make sure all those things you complain about were done correctly. Sure you ***** about it afterward, but you did not put in the effort to fully check out the contractor before you bought his house. This is the same point that Sparky is missing. The uncaring contractor got the job, not the quality contractor. Whose fault is that, yours, the consumer.

    If customers cared enough, they would put in the effort before the sale to check out the contractor. They just need to talk to previous customers. Walk through his subdivisions and knock on doors. People are happy to talk about the contractor who built their house, good or bad. Customers just won't do it. It's not important enough to put in the effort. It's unimportant until they have problems but then it's to late. The cheap guy got the job, the quality guy lost another one. That is precisely why we have so many cheap contractors. That is what the market buys.

    Why do the home centers sell more ryobi than bosch. Its the price. They are unwilling to pay for quality, and that is certainly their right.

    You don't always get what you pay for, you always pay for what you get.

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    • #17
      And Sparks. You are so proud of doing the best, cost be damned.

      Do you put in pipe (emt) when your customer pays for rope (romex)?

      Do you put in circuits for the range and the clothes dryer even though the customer wants gas and won't pay extra for the extra circuits?

      Do you put in a ceiling fan even though the customer is only paying for a light in all bedrooms, living room, and family room?

      Do you put in a separate circuit for the refrigerator to minimize spoilage if the other receptacle causes a trip?

      Do you put in coax and phone to all rooms, and multiples to the living room and bedroom even though your customer will only pay for one?

      Do you do all your receptacle circuits with #12 wire and 20A brkrs even when #14 and 15A is allowed?

      Do you refuse to use the speedwire connections?

      Do you install the Heavy Fixture box for the dining room fixture when you will be installing a light weight fixture just in case the customer changes his mind in the future?

      With the exception of the emt/romex thing, I do all the above and more. I personally wire my houses. I am also realistic enough to know that this all comes out of my pocket. I don't sell a single extra house, and I don't get a single extra dollar for the extra work. Customers just don't care enough to pay for this stuff.

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      • #18
        And Sparks. You are so proud of doing the best, cost be damned.
        Have you been taking lessons from s------1 and -D M----R S----Y?

        Do you put in pipe (EMT) when your customer pays for rope (romex)?
        Are you a total idiot? please tell me you haven't ran EMT in a house. That is just plain stupidity. The only time i use EMT is for an industrial or commercial job. However if we need to we will cut out part of the cement floor to get power to an Island in a kitchen. The we use EMT in a house.

        Do you put in circuits for the range and the clothes dryer even though the customer wants gas and won't pay extra for the extra circuits?
        In new homes we do that in a remodel we won't unless they ask.

        Do you put in a ceiling fan even though the customer is only paying for a light in all bedrooms, living room, and family room?
        What kind of moron are you? The homeowner or contractor get the lights for us to put in. If they want us to bring them they tell us what they want and we do it. As long as it meets or exceeds code.

        Do you put in a separate circuit for the refrigerator to minimize spoilage if the other receptacle causes a trip?
        Yes that is common sense.

        Do you put in coax and phone to all rooms, and multiples to the living room and bedroom even though your customer will only pay for one?
        We do what the plans say and if the consumer wants more they get charged for it.

        Do you do all your receptacle circuits with #12 wire and 20A breakers even when #14 and 15A is allowed?
        All the bedrooms and most of the lights are on 15 amp breakers and ran with 14 AWG. All dedicated circuits, garage outlets, small appliance circuits, laundry, and bathroom Gfci's are on a 20 amp breaker ran in 12 AWG.

        Do you refuse to use the speed wire connections?
        No, but if something does some loose that's be replaced with a wire nut.

        Do you install the Heavy Fixture box for the dining room fixture when you will be installing a light weight fixture just in case the customer changes his mind in the future?
        I do, just because they will change their mind later and it'll save us time and trouble in the future.

        With the exception of the EMT/romex thing, I do all the above and more. I personally wire my houses. I am also realistic enough to know that this all comes out of my pocket. I don't sell a single extra house, and I don't get a single extra dollar for the extra work. Customers just don't care enough to pay for this stuff.
        You personally wire your houses? Do you not trust your local electricians? All this ranting and what i have said is that we do what the General Contractor wants. If i was working for you and you wanted something a certain way I'd do it that way. The point i am trying to make is that some people try to cut corners to make a profit. If this has struck a nerve is it because you have a guilty conscious?
        Last edited by Polar Sparky 1224; 05-07-2006, 01:04 PM.
        "Diplomacy is saying nice dodging until you can find a rock." Will Rogers
        "If a Monkey can do your job, are you in the right profession?

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        • #19
          Here is the point sparks

          Yes, I am an electrician, have been for 25+ years, and yes I am a General Contractor, have been for 25+ years, and yes, I wire my own houses myself, I've done two (rough) in the last three weeks.

          I've done houses in pipe. Before I moved here I worked in the Chicago area and that was code minimum. No I don't think the codes are stupid like you seem to.

          And you do cut corners. I know plenty of electricians who would not/will not use speedwires (including me). Some of us believe that cheapens the work.

          And you agree that you don't put in the extra circuits or better fixtures unless you're paid for it. So why should the GC.

          You started this whole thing by saying the problem is tradesmen cutting corners. From my point of view, you are one of those tradesmen who cut corners. BUT, I will not criticize you for it. If the customer is unwilling to pay for more work or better work, you have no reason to do it. That's what I've been saying all along. That's the way you work, accept it and live with it, it's just fine.

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          • #20
            One wonders about your reading comprehension. I said in my last post "What kind of moron are you? The homeowner or contractor get the lights for us to put in. If they want us to bring them they tell us what they want and we do it. As long as it meets or exceeds code."

            I won't argue with you anymore after this.

            Yes, I am an electrician, have been for 25+ years, and yes I am a General Contractor, have been for 25+ years, and yes, I wire my own houses myself, I've done two (rough) in the last three weeks.
            Pat yourself on the back, You probably have your hands full with paper work and managing workers. When i did residential only we did 3 custom homes (3000+ sq ft) per week. And we had everything done right.

            I've done houses in pipe. Before I moved here I worked in the Chicago area and that was code minimum. No I don't think the codes are stupid like you seem to.
            Now when did i say the codes are stupid? I know they vary in some areas and you local authority having jurisdiction is your inspector.

            And you do cut corners. I know plenty of electricians who would not/will not use speed wires (including me). Some of us believe that cheapens the work.
            I guess i took your bait, hook, line and sinker good for you. The only kind of quick connecting products i have used came in can lights. If the inspector okay's it then that is the local authority saying it is fine.

            And you agree that you don't put in the extra circuits or better fixtures unless you're paid for it. So why should the GC. I said that is up to the home owner or GC, If they don't want it put in who cares, it they do want it they pay for it.

            You started this whole thing by saying the problem is tradesmen cutting corners. From my point of view, you are one of those tradesmen who cut corners. BUT, I will not criticize you for it. If the customer is unwilling to pay for more work or better work, you have no reason to do it. That's what I've been saying all along. That's the way you work, accept it and live with it, it's just fine.
            From my point of view you are full of !#$@!
            Originally posted by BigThom
            Now where does this Corporate World BullShit come from. To suggest that cutting corners comes from the Corporate World is just wrong, wrong, and wrong again.

            It's the customer stupid. I'll say it again, it's the customer stupid.

            Companies cut corners because that's what the customer wants. I build up-scale tract style homes. I hear it all the time, I'd rather have your house because it's built better if you could just match the other guy's price.

            The customer wants quality, but only if it's free. So, they get what they want, crap. But they do save a few bucks.

            Now a true tradesman knows that it's a short term savings and a long term expense. Cutting corners doesn't save money in the long run, but customers just don't care.

            How many times have you seen an addition that looks like crap? The customer went with cheap and got what they bought.

            If customers wanted, and were willing to pay for quality, the big boys would be at the front of the line to provide it. It's about providing a product that sells.
            Did I really start this?
            Last edited by Polar Sparky 1224; 05-07-2006, 05:37 PM.
            "Diplomacy is saying nice dodging until you can find a rock." Will Rogers
            "If a Monkey can do your job, are you in the right profession?

            Comment


            • #21
              Big Thorn, not to be rude but, Polar Sparky has answered all your questions and replied to your comments and you aren't satisfired with the answers....Did you cut corners in learning how to read?
              If the women don't find ya Handsome they should at least find ya Handy.

              Comment


              • #22
                Sparks, read your prior message. "re you a total idiot? please tell me you haven't ran EMT in a house. That is just plain stupidity." Stupidity was your word. You said putting EMT in a house is stupid. In Chicago, EMT is minimum in a residence (at least it was 25 years ago). So, in your words, putting EMT in a residence, even though it is code minimum, is stupid.

                Sparks, you need to get out more, maybe finish the sixth grade, read a book (like the NEC or the I codes).

                Good luck.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by BigThom
                  Sparks, read your prior message. "re you a total idiot? please tell me you haven't ran EMT in a house. That is just plain stupidity." Stupidity was your word. You said putting EMT in a house is stupid. In Chicago, EMT is minimum in a residence (at least it was 25 years ago). So, in your words, putting EMT in a residence, even though it is code minimum, is stupid.

                  Sparks, you need to get out more, maybe finish the sixth grade, read a book (like the NEC or the I codes).

                  Good luck.
                  These homes in Chicago did they have more than 3 floors above grade?
                  Are they made with brick?
                  It is true that the homes in the east have totally different requirements than those newer places in the west.
                  "Diplomacy is saying nice dodging until you can find a rock." Will Rogers
                  "If a Monkey can do your job, are you in the right profession?

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                  • #24
                    When I left Chicago in 1979 the rule was emt minimum for a residence. Number of floors, construction type weren't an issue. I don't know the current rules there.

                    Someone from Chicago want to chime in?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      EMT in Chicago

                      Chicago and ALL neighboring counties and not necessarily adjoining...and perhap many more than i have worked in...ALL require EMT in a residential home..single story or more...attempt to run romex and the inspectors will string you up with it from the rafters...BTW...EMT is the only way to go.....none of the following points holds true for the inferior ROMEX.
                      1. fires caused but faulty electrical wiring in the walls is non-existant.
                      2. no fires from a home-owner sticking a picture nail/screw through it.
                      3. easy to run complex and multiple circuits.
                      4. stripping and connections for recepts and switches much easier and faster time wise.
                      5. you don't have the incredible mess at the top of the breaker panel.
                      6. rewiring is possible without tearing up walls.

                      Many counties have had the EMT requirement...as far back as the early 60's and maybe earlier. BTW...Houston is constantly on fire because of shoddy ROMEX installations.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        So no matter how good the electric an is the romex will just start a fire. Even if you use nail plates the homeowner will still get a nail into it? When have you used 3" framing nails to hang a picture 2 feet off the ground? even with sconce lights, in the homes i have worked on our wire is never close enough to get hit. There is that possibility but you can only blame stupid people for fires and accidents not the romex. With that same logic we shouldn't drive cars! There are so many near misses and when people are not thinking then car collisions happen. We shouldn't fly in planes since so many aircraft have crashed to the earth. But hey it's a free world for people to make mistakes in it's to bad some mistakes cost people their lives.

                        When you are running EMT through the walls are the walls: Wood, steel, or brick?

                        How many couplings do you use for every 10' stick of conduit? When working on the X-ray rooms at the hospital we had couplings every 1' to 4' since we couldn't feed it straight into the wall.

                        using EMT is some ways is better but in the homes here in Utah it just doesn't work well. When you have 2x4 stud walls in a corner how do you get around that. a 90 degree bend even in half inch is hard to get in right let alone drill the hole. But if you run it up into the ceiling then do you use the boxes for the lights for your splices? If you ever put in reaccessed cans and you run it in flex how easy is it to move them later, if the homeowner wants some changes?

                        You really can not blame the wire for peoples mistakes.
                        "Diplomacy is saying nice dodging until you can find a rock." Will Rogers
                        "If a Monkey can do your job, are you in the right profession?

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