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  • #31
    Re: President

    Crappy,

    How is it unconstitutional for the congress to appropriate money? Under what artical or amendment does that come under?
    the dog

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: President

      Originally posted by plumbdog10 View Post
      If you read the first link you gave me carefully you would see that it sides with my argument.

      You are obviously approaching this from a religious point of view, which is your right and is fine with me. I'll agree, there is an ethical argument to be debated. But it should be debated as such. Where I disagree is when facts are altered to make an ethical point.

      You wrote: "For every scientist who wants money for embryonic stem cell research, there is one that doesn't." Are you saying that the entire medical research community is divided down the middle?

      I'll agree that you could find some scientists who will agree with your point of view, but that's a far cry from 50% of scientists. Show me any poll of researchers that indicates that.

      If you read the article you will notice that the researchers were attempting to reach some form of comprimise so at least some funding would be available.
      I think your missing Crappy's point. Which is let it happen but why should all tax paying people have to pay for it.
      I too am sick and tired of the government thinking they should make all of my decisions for me. Do they love all that power or think that we are that dumb? I think they love the power because usually money comes with power.

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: President

        Originally posted by JWMustang View Post
        I think your missing Crappy's point. Which is let it happen but why should all tax paying people have to pay for it.
        I too am sick and tired of the government thinking they should make all of my decisions for me. Do they love all that power or think that we are that dumb? I think they love the power because usually money comes with power.
        It's us who put the government in power.

        So is your opinion the government should spend no money? I'm sure you have benefited from a few government services in your life: police and fire departments, libraries, street lights, roads, bridges, courts, the military, building inspectors, etc.

        I think we should pay for it because, like the services listed above, it could benefit us all.
        the dog

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: President

          Dog, you are missing my point. I am not opposed to research. I would love for cures to be found. My best friend died of skin cancer at age 24. My mother had breast cancer. My Dad died of lung cancer two years ago. My aunts, uncle, two brothers, sister and myself have diabetes. The thing I am saying is people want this overnight, at the cost of distorting laws or just overlooking them. Read article 7 #14 and article 1 #8. Every life under the constitution has rights. The taxes we pay, our fore fathers never intended us to pay. These studies would not be under welfare. And besides you cannot break one law for another. I do not know the exact numbers on yeas or nays among scientists. But I do know there are plenty opposed to certain types of testing. There is alot of promise in the forms of testing going on right now. Whether or not you believe this is life being destroyed, I do not want to take the chance. And if we are going to, -- then people need to start doing things the right way. Bills need to be passed legally and people need to donate to the causes they see fit to spend there money on.

          I have an adopted son who is the world to me. I plan on adopting at least two more children. It does not matter what race or gender they are. My son is Filipino and looks nothing like me. While in the process of adopting him there were groups giving the birth mother literature on abortion, or other forms of assistance . Wouldn't it be nice if there were people or taxes giving money to help her or me adopt. Of course it would , but to make or force people to do so would be wrong. I know this is a heated subject. I would just encourage everyone to read up on these things. Because the way the media describes them is wrong.

          By the way just so everyone knows I am from Newport, Rhode Island , one of the most liberal states there is. I grew up less then a mile away from the Onassis estate and four blocks from the church JFK was married in. I was taught in school public settings that thinking or being conservative was wrong. I have lived poor and extremely wealthy as a child and can see both sides of the isle. Over the years I have become more and more conservative. Not to say I have not voted for Dem's in the past or would not vote Dem in the future. Many of the reasons I have become conservative is because I read and take an interest in public policies. I encourage the rest of you to do the same. And if this means you become more liberal then so be it. But at least you will be informed.
          Last edited by Crappy days; 06-23-2007, 05:07 PM.
          THE GLASS IS ALWAYS HALF FULL

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: President

            Also I am in favor of paying taxes on the things you listed as they were covered under the constitution. Maybe with the exception of building inspectors. But seeing as over 50 percent of the public services we currently have are not listed under the constitution. I am not in favors of adding anymore.
            THE GLASS IS ALWAYS HALF FULL

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: President

              Originally posted by plumbdog10 View Post
              It's us who put the government in power.

              So is your opinion the government should spend no money? I'm sure you have benefited from a few government services in your life: police and fire departments, libraries, street lights, roads, bridges, courts, the military, building inspectors, etc.

              I think we should pay for it because, like the services listed above, it could benefit us all.
              No its not. I would like to buy a new car every month but don't because I don't have the money to do it. The government needs to also learn to control themselves. The sky is not the limit.
              Common sense is no longer common.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: President

                Watching closely... dangerous waters here...

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: President

                  i see this happening

                  http://jovan.ru/pics2/closed/closed_sign.jpg
                  9/11/01, never forget.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: President

                    Originally posted by Josh View Post
                    Watching closely... dangerous waters here...
                    the flood gates are about to break

                    i told you politics and plumbing don't mix.

                    just like flat rate and time and material

                    rick.
                    phoebe it is

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: President

                      Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                      the flood gates are about to break

                      i told you politics and plumbing don't mix.

                      just like flat rate and time and material

                      rick.
                      Yeah politians are even more dishonest than.... Oh never mind.

                      Mark
                      "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                      I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: President

                        What's wrong with having a thread where 2 guys can disagree "aggressively"? Disagree, argue--big deal. Dog just wants someone to play with. Let him play. Although, we did get way off topic with this thread.
                        Buy cheap, buy twice.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: President

                          Originally posted by Crappy days View Post
                          Dog, you are missing my point. I am not opposed to research. I would love for cures to be found. My best friend died of skin cancer at age 24. My mother had breast cancer. My Dad died of lung cancer two years ago. My aunts, uncle, two brothers, sister and myself have diabetes. The thing I am saying is people want this overnight, at the cost of distorting laws or just overlooking them. Read article 7 #14 and article 1 #8. Every life under the constitution has rights. The taxes we pay, our fore fathers never intended us to pay. These studies would not be under welfare. And besides you cannot break one law for another. I do not know the exact numbers on yeas or nays among scientists. But I do know there are plenty opposed to certain types of testing. There is alot of promise in the forms of testing going on right now. Whether or not you believe this is life being destroyed, I do not want to take the chance. And if we are going to, -- then people need to start doing things the right way. Bills need to be passed legally and people need to donate to the causes they see fit to spend there money on.

                          I have an adopted son who is the world to me. I plan on adopting at least two more children. It does not matter what race or gender they are. My son is Filipino and looks nothing like me. While in the process of adopting him there were groups giving the birth mother literature on abortion, or other forms of assistance . Wouldn't it be nice if there were people or taxes giving money to help her or me adopt. Of course it would , but to make or force people to do so would be wrong. I know this is a heated subject. I would just encourage everyone to read up on these things. Because the way the media describes them is wrong.

                          By the way just so everyone knows I am from Newport, Rhode Island , one of the most liberal states there is. I grew up less then a mile away from the Onassis estate and four blocks from the church JFK was married in. I was taught in school public settings that thinking or being conservative was wrong. I have lived poor and extremely wealthy as a child and can see both sides of the isle. Over the years I have become more and more conservative. Not to say I have not voted for Dem's in the past or would not vote Dem in the future. Many of the reasons I have become conservative is because I read and take an interest in public policies. I encourage the rest of you to do the same. And if this means you become more liberal then so be it. But at least you will be informed.

                          Article 1, Section 8 States: "The congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States..."

                          Are you saying that medical research could not be considered providing for the "general welfare of the United States"? I think you would have a very hard time convincing even our current conservative Supreme Court of that argument.

                          Article 7, Section 14

                          Does not exist. Article 7 regards how the Constitution is to be ratified. I'm not sure how it is relavent.

                          Again,

                          If you want to argue that you don't want your tax dollars used for stem cell research, that is your right.

                          But so far your arguments have been that it is not necessary because 50% of medical researchers don't want it or the funding, and that it is unconstitutional. Neither of these are very valid arguments.
                          the dog

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: President

                            Dog, Sorry for the late response been out of town for a couple of days. To answer your question. I made a mistake , meant amendment 14 in the bill of rights. This talks about life or the protection of life. Also I don't think I would have a hard time convincing anyone about welfare as this is the definition(1wel·fare
                            Pronunciation: \ˈwel-ˌfer\
                            Function: noun
                            Etymology: Middle English, from the phrase wel faren to fare well
                            Date: 14th century
                            1: the state of doing well especially in respect to good fortune, happiness, well-being, or prosperity <must look out for your own welfare>)


                            Now I can see that you read the constitution differently then I do. When the constitution is read it should be done so from the perspective of the men that wrote it. Or it should be amended. At the time this was written, there was not stem cell research.
                            I again am fine with stem cell research done in certain ways . I am just not OK, with my money going to certain forms of research. Considering it is my money and not yours , I do not see what the problem is. By the way maybe you should read up a little more as CA already has given over 350 million to stem cell research. Also CA is planning to spend 3 billion on this within the next decade. To my knowledge this is on adult stem cell research. What ever it is on in my opinion is wrong. Not due to moral issues but rather budget issues. Studies or projects like this should funded by the private market.
                            To my knowledge when this money was pledged we were still in a large amount of debt as a state. If I ran my home or business like this I would have to file bankruptcy. The bottom line is I am fiscal conservative, so you being more liberal minded would not agree with me. I think I have given a valid argument. 1 many members of our society feel?think certain forms of testing are immoral. 2 Our fore fathers did not intend for us to be taxed for these types of social health care programs.3 The constitution states that life should be protected. Until you or someone descends from the sky and tells me this isn't life ( embryonic stem cells) then I do not want to take any chances. Here is the definition of life(1life
                            Pronunciation: \ˈlīf\
                            Function: noun
                            Inflected Form(s): plural lives \ˈlīvz\
                            Etymology: Middle English lif, from Old English līf; akin to Old English libban to live — more at live
                            Date: before 12th century
                            1 a: the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body b: a principle or force that is considered to underlie the distinctive quality of animate beings c: an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction
                            2 a: the sequence of physical and mental experiences that make up the existence of an individual b: one or more aspects of the process of living <sex life of the frog>
                            3)
                            Besides in the original post you replied to, I said to P Crack that the (liberal media) media shows this in the wrong light. Currently there is plenty of money going to this and many other social programs, not covered under the Constitution.
                            In closing read the bill of rights, the constitution and if you still feel this way then put up some of your own money. I know I already do enough as far as my time , money or talents go. I am very involved in my community. I think its time others start carrying there weight. From the many post I have read from you it doesn't seam as though you are the type of person that is involved. You yourself said you would not be a good neighbor. Sorry I just think its ironic you are trying to argue this type stuff with me. Also please explain to me if you even care about the constitution or what value the document holds. I do not mean any disrespect to you this is just my observation.
                            Last edited by Crappy days; 06-25-2007, 07:59 PM.
                            THE GLASS IS ALWAYS HALF FULL

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: President

                              glad we are plumbers, cause as josh said, the flood gates are going to close

                              i don't mind a little bit of politics and moral issues, but this is suppose to be a tool forum. it's turning into a political debate.

                              please try the forum's chat line. since no one is on it, it would be a great way to open it up to all at a predetermined time.

                              since both of you are local pst timing should be simple.

                              i'm sure if you post a good time to chat, others will chime in and the discussion can continue between all that want to participate.

                              sorry, but this is my opinion. agree or disagree.

                              rick.
                              phoebe it is

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: President

                                Rick, This is the general discussion area, current events etc. This all relates to who our next president will be. If Josh directs us to leave this area of the forum or feels this is inappropriate. Then I will do as I am asked by the administrator. Two adult men or women should be able to speak candidly about topics like this. I am not angry or belligerent toward Dog. I simply just do not agree with him or his thought process. I respect Dog for what I do know about him. From what I have read he is an excellent plumber and cares about our trade. I am just passionate about this subject or politics in general. So I do not mean to offend anyone but this is real life stuff. We as mature adults should be able to talk about these things. Besides I have not accused Dog of being a liar a cheat or a con artist as some have accused me of(flat rate discussion).
                                THE GLASS IS ALWAYS HALF FULL

                                Comment

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